M42 black and white

[gregbradley]

Here is a black and white M42 I took on Friday night.

CDK17, Proline 16803, PME.

http://upload.pbase.com/gregbradley/image/130689109/original

Greg.

[strongmanmike]

Eeeeek..put on the brakes :eyepop: :lol:

Man there is some detail in the billowing clouds there huh?

Niiice

Mike

[peter_4059]

Great M42 Greg. I don't think I've seen any other image of it with that much detail. The core takes on quite a different look in B&W.

[multiweb]

We had M42 wired, unplugged but this one is a definite reloaded! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[mill]

Wow!!! that looks very good with some very nice detail:thumbsup:

[SkyViking]

Some stunning details in those clouds, great work!

[Bigcrunch]

A wonderful picture Greg, a lot of details in the heart of M42.I love this object in B&W.

bravo

:)Livier

[Stevec35]

You can't beat the large aperture Greg. Very nice M42.

Cheers

Steve

[Peter Ward]

I'm noticing what seems to be a Proline 16803 hallmark: a 2-8 o'clock spike (that I doubt is coming from the CDK) Trivial really, but I'm curious to know what causes it...(Mike's seems to do something similar )

Nice. Some very fine structure there :thumbsup:

[gregbradley]

Yes. I'm loving the aperture. You can get up close and personal.



Thanks Peter. Its the most I have gotten that's for sure. B & W shows the detail well.



Thanks marc.



Thanks for that.



M42 is always an interesting target.



Thank you for that.



Too true.



When the Proline and Apogee U16M were in the hands of customers and little bugs were showing up with the 16803 cameras a common complaint was reflections.
This was usually from refractors that of course always had to have a flattener with a chip this large. Apogee brought out a mask for their camera that was quite effective so stray light did not hit shiny parts in the CCD chamber and bounce back and forth from the flattener to the chip. FLI did something similar although I do not see any evidence of a mask in mine like I had in my Apogee (I installed it myself). This issue became so heated it resulted in a whole new series of filters that were more advanced with antireflection coatings. That largely handled it along with the mask. So I would say the similarity between Mike's scope and the CDK is the corrector/flattener. My Proline has dew heaters installed as well. They are 2 bright orange strips on either side of the chip window. A bit crude perhaps and a little project I have is to blacken them. Perhaps the Proline also needs an aperture mask like the Apogee has which was a thin black metal cutout the same size as the CCD window. I think I will post with the FLI group to see if the Proline has one. If not it needs one. Also blackening the edges of my filters can be improved with another coat of matt black paint instead of the black permanent marker I have used which is still a tad shiny. So I think a mask if not already there, blackening the dew heater strips (there for the Florida guys anyway), further blackening of the edges of the filters should improve it. Beyond that I don't know. Different CCD chambers have different shiny bits that could be bouncing light around. The chip has no cover slip so its not that. I have seen some small halo problems associated with those. Beyond that a more advanced multilayer antireflection coated CCD cahmber window would no doubt help but how far do you take it? I know FLI switched to a better CCD window on the Microlines because of 2 guys having trouble with small halos around even only medium bright stars. I have seen some shockers of reflections on some sites with different filters. Something to know for the STX series if that aspect of the large chip has been provided for as it was a big issue there about 2 years ago now. I haven't noticed any reflection issues with STX images I have seen so far so it seems to be on the money there.

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

Hard to know. I have a FFC installed on my RC, it is not strongly curved, and I would expect similar to the CDK, yet has shown no ill effects. eg here (http://www.atscope.com.au/BRO/gallery49.html)

Anyway, I didn't intend on hi-jacking the thread. Nice M42 either way.

[gregbradley]

I had a check of other images I have done with different scopes and the Proline and the Microline and I can those spikes subtley on some brighter stars even with refractors.

So as you say a minor thing with the FLI cameras. I would put it down to the choice of CCD chamber window glass type (they do have different types as options), antireflection coatings they use or something in the CCD chamber that could be darker and is shiny. I don't see them with the Apogee U16M images.

It doesn't worry me either way but answers a question I had about why they were there.

An aperture mask may handle it then again if its the window it won't.

Greg.

[ptc]

Not from the Proline, Peter. It is caused by a shiny screwhead used for retaining filters that should have been painted flat black. The screwhead is on the carousel that is in the filter wheel. Paint it black and it goes away. You ought to see the Apogee filter wheel: they had big slots between the filters in the old version. Thought they would save some weight but forgot about:

1) light sneak paths around the slots

2) dust ingress around these slots that wind up putting motes in different places on the camera window at different points in time. Makes for a "delight" when shooting flats.

you can see the problems here
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/incoming/apogee_filter_wheel.pdf

At least in the case of the FLI filter wheel you can paint the screwheads. Sort of are in a boat with a hole in it for the Apogee design error.

Lest ye think that SBIG is immune: don't forget about their NIR LED that they turn on inside of their filter wheel that is used for indexing of the older types. Not sure if they repeated that silly error on the STX "Boatanchor": not enough have shipped to get a reasonable sample size for assessment yet.

The cool thing about that NIR LED is that it is perfect for creating RBI artifacts since RBI is greatly aggravated by NIR light. And since it will involve "sneak paths" inside the filter wheel and shutter, it is variable and not so easy to calibrate out. I suspect some of the flat fielding problems people have reported from time to time is related to RBI and the presence of an NIR LED *INSIDE* the filter wheel but *WITHOUT* an RBI mitigation mechanism built in.

Obviously those fine scientists in Santa Barbara weren't thinking about RBI when that design mistake was made. Not clear to me that they understood what RBI actually was. Have they got a handle on it now in the ST8300 or the STX? I think QSI (the new "SBIG" as I see it) has taken the position of "wait a while before shooting the next image" as an RBI mitigation strategy with their formerly grossly overpriced QSI583: others may call that the "ostrich" approch of sticking one's head in the sand and hoping for the best.... good work when you can get it and can convince your advocates/sophosits that it is a viable strategy... got to love it: all the Einsteins these companies have as customers.... brilliant, every one of them!

[richardo]

And you thought mine was in your face:eyepop:!
Great to see the weather giving you just a peek of what this lovely scope can do.
Some very nicely resolved detail to the cloud filaments, with better weather, this'll be a lovely image.

Nice to compare all the different M42's !!

All the best
Rich

[strongmanmike]

I'm not sure where they are in my images :shrug:

Although I have seen such features in other images, I recall Richardo saw them in his 10" F4 astrograph too and he wasn't using anything FLI. Certainly haven't noticed this effect in my images though. I get some unexplained flare like diffraction spikes around my bright stars - the origin of which baffles me but obviosuly something in my imaging train and I have just grown used to them - but not these distinct diagonal lines..?

Richard Crisp makes some valid points though.

Mike

[gregbradley]

[QUOTE=ptc;661391]Not from the Proline, Peter. It is caused by a shiny screwhead used for retaining filters that should have been painted flat black. The screwhead is on the carousel that is in the filter wheel. Paint it black and it goes away.


Thanks for that Richard. I would never have suspected something so simple. I'ff fix that.

Cheers,

Greg.

[Peter Ward]

This is what I was referring to..... Could well be the filters or wheel. Richard's explanation sounds reasonable.

[Martin Pugh]

Greg
I had this artefact in the first Proline camera FLI sold me which was a complete disaster in so many other ways, but that's another story. See the attached JPG.

While you have the cover off, you might also want to check the slop in the filter carousel, another trade-mark FLI design flaw. There was about 3mm slack in mine, and this causes visibile tilt and optical aberrations, particularly when your CFZ is measured in microns (about 60microns for a red filter I think). The unbelievable and utterly ridiculous advice from FLI was "take a link out of the chain"!!!!! The SBIG implementation is fantastic - you simply adjust the tension on the central spindle to the point where the carousel rotates smoothly, but there is no rock in it. Then there is the superb implementation of how they clamp the filters in position - no utterly stupid miniature screws (all of which are shiny in nature in the Proline, and all the source of reflections).

cheers
Martin

[Peter Ward]

All good "boat anchors" are designed that way ;)

[multiweb]

Woa... that is scary to hear that even the top gear has its flaws. I'll never complain about my stuff ever again. :lol: Didn't spend a fortune on it which helps. :)

[gregbradley]

Interesting. That reflection looks the same. I'll know for sure next time I image as I'll blacken the screws before next time I use it.

I hadn't noticed any slop in the filterwheel but I'll check. I don't see differences in the focus point between these filters so that is another check. Are you referring to looseness in the carousel filter plane or circular slop?

When things are mass produced I am sure there is a lemon in any companies run of products. Its how they handle that when detected that is the mark of a good business. Ideally of course, no defects get through the QC process. But then who would've thought Toyotas would have had such a big recall?

My experience so far with FLI cameras has been extremely positive but then they haven't had any defects at all.

The main problem with any of these 16803 cameras is they are heavy. I assume that applies to the STX. The Apogee is among the lightest. FLI makes a Microline 16803 that would be very small and light though. I love my little Microline 8300. Its a really good machine.

I liked my SBIG STL11 too. Self guiding is very handy and all contained with filters in a compact unit is very good. I liked my Apogee U16M except for the slow cooling time which caused trouble at times - especially taking dusk flats, otherwise a fabulous camera.

Greg.

[strongmanmike]

IIIII bet you wiiiiilllll :P :lol:

[Hagar]

Gees Greg cant you send some of the clear bits of sky down this way.

Lovely M42 Greg. I can only imagine how wonderfull this would be if you captured a reasonable amount of exposure. This is great more would be way more.

Well done.

[gregbradley]

I think I used up all the available clear weather!

Thanks Doug. I am looking forward to some clearer weather as well but it doesn't look too likely at the moment.

Greg.

[Paul Haese]

Really nice work Greg and great image scale. Love the furry look to the dust and gas in the outer rim. The inner core is superbly textured and integrated into the image. Add some colour to this image and it will be fantastic. I am guessing this is a Malin awards project? It would have some impact.

[gregbradley]

Thanks Paul. I am glad you like it. It could be made into a nice colour image. Hopefully this long spat of rainy weather clears before M42 is gone for the year!

Cheers,

Greg.

[Fabiomax]

You was very close to M42, when you did this image?amazing details...!
Ciao,
Fabiomax

[Nightskystargaz]

Greg,

:thumbsup:, on your very nice pic of M42 :)

CS,KLU,

:thanx:,

Tom

[gregbradley]

:lol: Yes the CDK17 makes it look that way.




Thanks very much Tom.

Greg.

[RB]

LOL Greg, give us a warning first before we open this up.
I got vertigo as soon as I looked at the core, never seen it so close up !!! :lol:

Excellent work mate, love it !

:thumbsup: