Mounts - the expensive ones

[h0ughy]

Here i sit, broken hearted, paid a penny and only....... have several things on my mind. one of them is this:

of the mounts out there what are the pro's and cons of the following from users that actually do have them:


Losmandy Titan with gemini

Astrophysics 1200

Celestron CGE pro

Takahashi em500

Takahashi Em400



really i am after bang for bucks, with the US dollar being at parity some things are looking more "affordable"

i was dabbling in getting a loan and going the full paramount ME and getting the dome fully automated - then i woke up from my impending death by fireing squad by SWMBO. So i am resigned to the fact that i will be getting the automated dome rotation, but as to the upgrading of my mount????

There are options abound - some include the Titan at an attractive price of under 8K with the new gemini with a payload capacity of 45kg, I have seen the celestron mount around this price as well, and more fuel to the fire is that the astrophysics mount comes into the frey - though it might have to be delivered to someone in the US then shipped over later;)

[Dennis]

Hi Dave

If you want advanced electronics, PEC, ability to Park the mount (without leaving it powered on), an electronic hand controller, firmware updates, etc. then I would look further afield than the Tak mounts, unless of course, the EM400 and/or EM500 offer those capabilities.

Whilst the Tak mounts are superb mechanical instruments, they seem to lag behind the other mounts in terms of electronic sophistication, requiring either a PC, Netbook, or PDA to use the GoTo capability.

Of course, if advanced electronics and firmware updates are of no concern, then the Tak mounts are superb. I have an EM200 and the Polar Alignment Scope it an absolute joy to use – I think the EM400 has the same PAS?

Have you looked at the AP Mach 1, or is that too light weight for your needs?

Good luck!

Cheers

Dennis

PS – there is a nice EM400 in the Ice In Space for sale section last time I looked – a bargain!

[gbeal]

Huff,
Oh boy, playing with fire indeed.
I'm the last to advise, as being as tight as I am, the list you have above is wasted on me.
Couple of thoughts though. There is an EM400 advertised already.
The AP1200 is nice and my pick, I have assisted a local guy with sourcing one.
I could be wrong but don't think you need to circumvent the shipping from AP to you, if you buy an AP, buy it direct from Roland and Marj.
Gary

[h0ughy]

it will be in the observatory so i suppose the PC will be a given the Ap might be too lightweight?

[h0ughy]

i thank you for your advice. Yes fire proof suit required

[issdaol]

I have a EM400 which I think is excellent build. It is very stable, quiet and the polar scope is excellent. It supports my Mewlon 300 which is a heavy OTA just fine :)

As others have said, you need an I-Phone/I-Pad/PDA/Laptop to control the goto.

IMHO the Tak metal tripod is the best I have seen on the market if you want portable stability.

That being said I would not exactly class a brand new Tak as a "Bang-for-Buck" bargain.

However, there is a good second hand unit on the IIS classiffieds you may want to look at.

You might also want to add the Paramount ME to your list to investigate.

Also I believe that "Bird" uses a Losmandy Titan on a permanent pier for his Jupiter observations/ccd work.

[pmrid]

David, don't forget the recent news of an EQ7. May be worth holding off until it surfaces.
Peter

[Hans Tucker]

Astro Solutions has a Takahashi Advanced Temma Hand Controller which can be used on all Temma mounts (EM200, NJP/JP-Z, EM400 and EM500) and therefore addresses some of the software shortfalls, so with that addition Tak mounts can virtually match the likes of Losmandy or Astro-Physics. The only things that Tak mounts lack is PEC.

[Gama]

Heres another, and my thought, is the best..

http://planewave.com/index.php?page=1&id0=1&id=2

Theo

[rmcconachy]

Why is the PlaneWave the best Theo? I'm not disagreeing with you (I've never seen one let alone used it) but I'm wondering what makes it better than some of the other alternatives, e.g., AP 3600GTO. Build quality? Software? Something else? I'm sure you've got reasons for your opinion and I'm curious what they might be if you are willing to share please. Just how much did you want to spend again David? :)

[h0ughy]

ooohhh veery nice but its a tad too far for me ATM

[Gama]

They handle a heavy load, and is fully controlable.
I have seen them in action, and they are a hafty mount.
AP mounts are fine too, but i didnt like the specs on his latest mount for the money you pay.
But as i said, my thought, others needs may differ.
Same goes for telescope. I bought the CDK-20 about 2 and a half years ago, and for the money, nothing could match it in price and performance.

Theo.

Theo.

[h0ughy]

is it like the cge pro?

[Hans Tucker]

For the price of the Planewave I would be looking at Gemini Mountegra...it has an interesting single arm design and the best specifications I have come across.

[g__day]

What about the new baby Paramount MX coming out in (I think first half of 2011) expected to be around US $8,500

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1441/7656938/23549376/393239251.jpg

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4172951/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1#Post4176047

The estimated introductory price for the Paramount MX will be approximately $8,500. Software Bisque is not officially announcing a shipping date for the Paramount MX at this time.
Paramount MX Specifications and Features


Equipment capacity (not including the counterweights): 90 lbs. (41 kg)
Weight of the mount: is about 50 lbs. (23 kg). This may vary slightly with the addiion of the final bearings/electronic components/polar alignment telescope, etc.).
The next generation control system (called the MKS 5000) that employs virtually all of the features of the Paramount ME's MKS 4000 control system, with improvements, such as USB 2.0 communication interface, upgraded processors, smaller physical footprint, redesigned hand paddle. The exact power requirements are not currently available.
Ingenious three way "switch" on both the RA and Dec axis that engages the worm during normal operation, disengage the worm from the gear when balancing the payload, or lock gear in place for during transit.
Optional and removable polar alignment telescope for rapid alignment with the pole. A study cover protects the polar alignment scope during transport.
GEM design allows the right ascension axis to tracks past the meridian for up to 2 hours (time).
All internal harnesses (cables) and motors are encapsulated inside the body of the mount, just like the Paramount ME.
Optional through the mount cabling.
Polar alignment adjustments that are virtually identical to the Paramount ME.
Paramount ME-like homing, tracking and pointing performance.
Includes Versa-Plate and power supply.
8-inch right ascension and declination gears.
6-inch contact ball bearings in both right ascension and declination.
Precision brass worms and aluminum gears that have extremely low periodic error.
Periodic error correction curve fitting included with TheSkyX Professional Edition

[sheeny]

If it turns out to be EQMOD compatible, this could be an option for automating the obs :thumbsup::P:D.

Al.

[Paul Haese]

I have got an EM400 as you might know David.

Great mount, a real pleasure to setup and use. No PEC is hardly worth knowing about as guiding takes care of that little issue. PE is quoted at 3.5" but I have checked mine and it is 1.5". Many people report similar results too. So this is probably what you get normally.

My only gripes are that these mounts don't have a home position and do not have its own purpose built hand controller by Tak. If Takahashi were to get their act together and include these items these mounts would compete with other more expensive ones from other manufacturers.

By way of example Mike Sidonio uses an NJP mount and you have seen the results he gets. Everything really revolves around you determination to make things work. Even a slouch like me can get reasonable results with a Tak mount.

Anyway if I was to do it all again I would most likely buy an ME but at todays prices. At the time this was the cheapest option for me to go with the Tak.

Good luck with your decision.

[gregbradley]

Wow interesting list.

The obvious standout is the AP1200 which is in a class above the others in the list.

I see a couple of local PMEs for sale in the ads. Save on GST and shipping.

I have owned Sphinx, Mountain Instruments MI250, Tak NJP and Paramount ME.

By far and above the rest is the PME, as expected. But it is more of a jump than I expected. I now achieve round stars everytime without fail and without any mucking around trying to tweak everything. The NJP can give round stars a lot of the time but not always. This is the first time tracking is taken out of the imaging equation. My NJP requires more careful balancing, guide parameters just right, everything just right. The Paramount operates in every respect at a higher level of accuracy. It is heavier but manhandleable and I would say its at the limit for portability but could be done.

I also found it very easy to use and it is quite user friendly one thing I liked about my Tak NJP. But it has all the bells and whistles. The home position in particular is fabulous and that would be a fabulous feature on the Tak. I am not sure about the PEC. I often don't turn it on (unless it uses it automatically which is possible) and I don't see a difference when I do so perhaps Paul is right there. It is pretty accurate to start with.

Not sure about the EM400 (I suspect it is the same). The Temma control box has a switch for slewing speed or normal speed. It is quite a pain as everytime you frame the object you need the slewing speed but before you autoguide you need to flip it back to normal speed. If you forget which is easy to do, it will throw the carefully framed object off and you need to reframe it again. Also it has the quirky hold down the S1 key when turning on the mount to let it know you are in the southern hemisphere. Even with that I have had the occassional trouble convincing the software I am in the southern hemisphere as it starts to slew into the ground!

So my advice is put the mount above the dome automation and get one of these local PMEs which are superb value. Your imaging will go to another level.

With the other mounts you mention you will also do well. It no doubt will require more fussing and tweaking to get optimum results.

The other neat thing about the PME is how seamless it operates with the Sky. The fact it has a home position at startup so it you don't lose all your careful synching if you physically move the mount. Plus it will handle any size scope us amateurs are likely to get.

The next best there would be the AP1200. One feature mentioned by Tony Hallas is the fact the AP1200 can image all the way round past the meridian without doing a flip. That to me would be a real plus as my PME stops when it gets to the meridian and I have to flip it. I know this can be automated but then you're back to the mucking around with gear scene. I prefer to set it up then flick a switch, frame up the object and hit start for the imaging!

Dome automation won't make better images only extra convenience. A PME or AP1200 will and you'll never need to upgrade. I like the Tak mounts but importing an EM400 with GST and shipping and exchange rate fees will put you in similar dollars to the local 2nd hand PME for a far better mount. Perhaps the difference is narrowed to $2000 or less yet the jump up is quite large.

There are other high tech mounts out these days. But they are yet to prove themselves with large numbers of satisfied customers, bugs sorted, software compatible etc etc. I really don't like being some companies beta tester when I paid for a fully sorted product.

Greg.

[DavidTrap]

Whilst my mount isn't in the same weight class that you're looking at, I'm rather impressed with the quality and ease of use of the AP Mach1GTO. I'm not pushing the envelope on focal length (600-800mm), but I can't recall the last image I discarded because of poor tracking. Imaging through the meridian is very nice.

Simply put, "does what is says on the box"!

Automation is a whole different scene - from what I can see on the web, there's really only one answer to that, PME.

DT

[MuntiNZ]

Hi mate another mount for you list is the ASA DDM!
Mine is landed in country but I am stuck in the desert right now.
When I pick it up I will do the reviews and pics thingee here for ya all.

[marc4darkskies]

That will be an interesting read Daz - hurry up and go home!! :)

Cheers, Marcus

[h0ughy]

reading all of the above makes me regret something i have recently done - or not done as the case maybe - well thats life. There would be some advantages in being single ;)

might have to research a bit more on some of the mounts, given the fact i cant leave the gear imaging by itself unattended (unfortunately our neck of the woods is no longer "safe to leave" overnight so that may rule out some options for me anyway. Payload, ease of use, reliability, price, spares and repairs. not everyone needs a PME (i am trying to keep telling myself that) but i suppose it comes down to comparing the total package?

[[1ponders]]

You got that right Dave. ;)

[Tandum]

Dave, might be time to make a stand as I did. I bought an em-200 and decided that if it was troo heavy for that mount I didn't want it. Example being the recent GSO RC-10 for sale was too heavy for the mount so look for a vcm-260 instead, 10kgs lighter.

[h0ughy]

but where does one draw the line - i would like to get maximum payload if i could i would love to have on there the 127 and the 10" plus the 60mm lunt and guidescope in one complete platform - for me to achieve that i would require a very stable mount - hence the discussion

i am looking at Value for money now as i realise that this probably wont be my last throw of the dice ;) but will most certainly help me move along in the hobby :rofl:. So the G11 becomes a portable mount once again, keep the eq6 and move on the eq5pro.....

but its what i choose now which is the main problem.:question:

[h0ughy]

wow just looked up the price for that:eyepop:

[mick pinner]

sit back and look at all the stuff you have bought up until now and the money you have lost or still tied up in equipment that you no longer want, wish you had waited and bought the mount you really wanted? bet you do, why would you be any different to the rest of us.
you have enough information at hand to deceide which mount you need so make the decision, stick with it and save, you will then be happy.

[MuntiNZ]

Yep mate its about 15500 AUD now but I payed more coz the $ was lower!!! :sadeyes::mad2: :lol:
Still the best cash I ever spent but!
And I havent even seen it yet! :lol:
Plus whats a Paramont cost and the pme is not direct drive?? :P

[gregbradley]

How about this - an AP900 + portable pier for US$6500;

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=709190

Greg.

[bokglob]

ASA are having an "introductory price sale" on there DDM60 for the first 100 orders. Secs are phenomonal, but only carries 25kg for about 10k. Having said that, if I had ten grand I'd buy one. DD, wow:D

[h0ughy]

thanks Greg - went and had a look and realised that this mount has seen a lot of action - the wear and tear shows a lot of photon action:sadeyes:

[jase]

When you start to pay big money for a mount, your judgement should extend beyond its tracking performance and carrying capacity. You should also be weighing up an additional couple of items;


Software - In today's realm of high end mounts, most imagers are results focused. No point having a sophisticated mount sitting idle not producing the goods. As such a mount should easily integrate with a variety of software to streamline the data acquisition process with minimal effort. The money we're talking you should expect it to work out of the box or near to.
Technical Support - Ideally support should be local or close to your time zone. Dealing with the US isn't too bad, but Europe painful. Make sure you don't come across language barriers when you need to pick up the phone. Bouncing emails back and forth can be unproductive at times. If the mount has a large install base, you'll probably find other users who'll resolve your issue quickly as the first point of call.
Ease of use - Its the mount's servo controller system (its brains) that make the decisions. If this is software assisted with a common product, it will make it easier for the operator to quickly configure and operate. Most if not all will integrate with ASCOM allowing you to make use of ASCOM client of choice. You will still need core software to be the ASCOM hub.

I'm sure there are a few other items which I've missed. Point being however that the mount itself, while a very important one should also be considered with the above items.

[h0ughy]

given what you have said, what would be your bucket list of order? - i know the pme etc will be on top, but more of the lower end to mid range etc given your parameters?:shrug:

[jase]

I think Greg nailed it well in his post.

A second hand AP1200 w/GTO would certainly meet your critera, though doesn't have all the bells and whistles as a mount with the Bisque MKS-4000 system. I would also suggest hunting down a used Paramount GT-1100s w/MKS-3000 system. They come up on astromart now and then, and are a steal for what you get given they have all the smarts for unattended use. This is ultimately a cost versus functionality discussion.

[MuntiNZ]

Ya mate this is why I brought the ASA!
Tons of software for it just about all the currently stuff works well with the DDM.
ASA are good as gold to deal with once you have got your head round the accents --- but then I was in NZ for a year or more so I know all about hard to understand accents!! :lol:
Tons of the DDM mounts around in Europe and the Asa Yahoo forum is active and they are helpful to.
Dunno about ease of use yet coz I havent even looked at my new DDm but it seems like the new and differentness of these direct drive mount with the high precision encoders is wearing off and every one is getting the hang of them. Itsall ASCom like most other mounts so no worries there!
When I did my homework I found that the mount I thought I would buy had just as many probs as any of the others so I reckoned that going up a notch and spending a few bucks more on the newert tech instead was a no brainer.
The direct drives will replace every thing else pretty soon I reckon specially at the top end any how.
So what did I get? The latest and the greatest with big load high precision no period error and that is starting to take over europe astro scenes and is supported by latest software apps and Ascom and has good support from the makers and users and for not much more than the next best thing which does have PE. ;):P

[gregbradley]

I see - 2004 model.

I don't know that mounts wear out very fast. The gears I suppose do some work but I haven't heard of anyone complaining of an older mount losing its ability. I suspect mounts last a very long time unless abused.

You could use that fact to beat down the price more. The US economy is in the doldrums still and I see a lot of high end gear not selling on Astromart that normally would be sold in 24 hours. So its a buyers market. What if you beat him down to $6000 or even $5750 when he doesn't get any takers? Be harder to resist then eh? I wonder how much it would cost to send it to AP for a service and upgrades?
You get it for $5750 and send it to AP for another $1000 including a service and upgrades and you've got a good as new mount practically for half price plus a pier and accessories.

Also you can order a new AP900 without a wait list at the moment but they are $8750 new. The pier no doubt is another few thousand, then there's freight,insurance and GST.

I agree with Jase. I saw a Paramount GTS1100 with mks3000 system not so long ago on Astromart for a steal. I think it was around US$6000 or something similar. Again, an older mount if you are concerned about wear and tear.

What sort of budget are you considering as that usually is the ultimate parameter that must be met?:eyepop:

Are you looking for something more portable? High payload, high accuracy, PEC enabled, software friendly and backed up
ease of use, lots of accessories (like piers and pier adapters)??

If I were in the mid range capable but portable and easy to use mount market I would think AP900,
Tak EM400 (getting up there in price), Losmandy Titan, 2nd hand GTS1100 Paramount are around similar dollars. Ioptron has new mounts - I have no data about them though.

I have never heard anyone say anything but praise about AP mounts - so 900 or 1200 would be good. Tak EM400 similarly has a lot of happy users although the usual complaint is no PEC and basic hand controller. But then setup well it doesn't need it so much (PEC though should improve any mount surely). But that lack mayt become a problem at 3 metres focal length when every little extra bit of accuracy is now required. Up to 2 metres and no problem.

ASA are new but advanced design. Planewave have new mounts but again no track record. Paramount is a leader and has a new mini PME but again no track record with that one although likely to be a safe bet.

I agree with Jase. Other factors beyond accuracy and payload come into it. Depends on how sophisticated you want to go.

If you are portable you really want it to be able to setup easily, polar aligned accurately very quickly and simple to use. All the bells and whistles are potentially a set of things that can go wrong.

If I were imaging with a portable setup I would be inclined to polar align roughly with a quick drift alignment and then use T-point to get a 6-10 points model and then it tells you how much to adjust your mount and it would be very accurate for autoguided imaging. It would probably take about 30 minutes to get to that point. You can do this with any mount not just a PME. You just need to use the Sky and T-point. I would also want a nice portable pier as part of the package.


Greg.

[h0ughy]

thanks for the advice Greg - no portable mount as it will be permanently in the observatory, as for price - the most i can get for the cheapest price ;) but under 10K would be nice