Miscommunication on IIS

[casstony]

While fights are fairly rare on IIS I noted a recent thread that was full of miscommunication and people's feelings were probably hurt as a result. I'd like to offer this as food for thought:

"We jump to conclusions in online communication all the time, which explains why there is so much miscommunication in the virtual world. Having taught online classes in colleges and universities for the past ten years, I have come to appreciate the unique challenges that arise in learning to communicate effectively in the virtual world. Problems with miscommunication occur so frequently in the face-to-face (f2f) world, it’s no wonder that communication difficulties are even more pronounced in a medium that relies solely on the written word, without facial expressions, body language, or vocal tone and inflection.
Most of us have found ourselves in the cross fire of miscommunication somewhere along the line. We have offended someone without meaning to by not being clear in using humor or sarcasm in an email or perhaps a discussion in an online forum. Almost all of us have been in the position of both offending another person without meaning to or we have been insulted by someone else who did not intend to wound with words"

Sourced from: http://thistimethisspace.com/2009/08/13/avoiding-online-miscommunication/

IMHO, we should also try to make allowances for the brashness of youth and bold statements by people new to the hobby. A little patience goes a long way.

[GTB_an_Owl]

are you saying we need (to use) more emoticons Tony ?

Jen would be happy with that :P :D

geoff

[CraigS]

Tony;

Thanks kindly for your very thought provoking post.
Its a very interesting topic (for me).

In many ways, textual communication also assists in clarifying complex thoughts and ideas as well. Discipline is required, as well as vigilance in clarity of presentation.

I also find that the anonymity of the medium provokes a different mode of behaviour.

There is much to discuss on this topic. I look forward to participating in this thread.

Cheers & Rgds.

[DavidTrap]

Agreed - the frontal lobe is often disengaged during communication on the net.

I think the screen-name of the original poster in the thread I assume you are talking about is quite appropriate - he might be playing with peoples' minds!

DT

[CraigS]

David - perhaps so - I think we're all playing mind games, really.
We're all disembodied beings. There are only thoughts originating from within those minds.

Which can also be viewed as a benefit.

I've found that the "Number of Posts" displayed results in vastly different treatments. Fascinating really. The medium strips discrimination based on age, sex, looks, ethnicity, and then re-establishes it upon other criteria.

It's a bizarre place (& very entertaining).

Cheers

[multiweb]

+1 . I think the poster enquiring about the C14 got flamed here and on CN (by the same people actually) for no reason. Pretty disgusting IMHO regardless of age.

[Kevnool]

My opinion here is that it is a public forum and loads of topics are discussed with most being repeated one time or another.

Of course some people are going to argue that there item or there preferred brand is going to be better, That is always going to happen.

Me i read them and laugh mostly without reply(Some i Do) knowing quite well that they will eventually be locked.

Planet X , Eyepiece , Scope , etc just throw the word which in there and then just wait for the padlock.

Arguments will always be a part of forums as both sides get debated.

Thats also why theres moderation to keep us all in check.

Push Forward
Cheers Kev.

[CraigS]

Interesting comments.

I find emoticons annoying, sometimes. Distracting, actually. They can be used sarcastically, or as a display of authenticity. I find it extremely difficult to differentiate between the two uses unless I am familiar with the person using them, or I have followed this person's thoughts across many threads/forums. When I was a newbie, their use confused me no end.

I also believe newbies hold responsibility for their actions. Politeness gets us a long way, regardless of our age. The same holds in real life (as opposed to virtuality). The minute we take to the keyboard we are armed with a formidable weapon. We should respect its power.

Perhaps 'the pen is mightier than the emoticon'.

Cheers

[casstony]

Geoff, while emoticons may help convey meaning, I think it's more important to simply assume the best about a post that may be difficult to interpret. In addition, we all make mistakes or act irrationally at times; if the group generously overlooks the incident it will fade away rather than escalating into a locked thread.

Harsh words can seriously injure the recipient and generally don't make the poster feel better either.

[mithrandir]

I try to adhere to the principals of:
reread the posting to make sure it is not just the author's limited grasp of the subject or language,
not replying when I'm annoyed but waiting till I've calmed down,
asking myself if what I said would unjustifiably upset me if someone said it about me, and
proof reading at least twice.

There are people and threads better off ignored. The hard part can be identifying which ones they are.

Flashing emoticons do little for me except encourage migranes.

And as for l33t sp34k ... :screwy:

[ballaratdragons]

:rofl:

You old timer! :lol:
Your still a newbie yourself.

Unless you consider 2 months as being one of the old originals.

[CraigS]

Ok .. I'm still a newbie .. you can be right.

Emoticons still confuse me !

Cheers

[multiweb]

11000 post minimum or a big 2005 in the rego line is a must. Man! Then Ken Crawford's still under 100 posts....got a long way to go :violin:

[leon]

Interesting thread, however very true, text can be misread as it has no emotion.

Leon

[ballaratdragons]

Exactly how text is taken wrong.

Here is a perfect example of a smartarse reply to my sarcastic humorous comment.

[multiweb]

Yep - Ego mate, ego... have another beer. Here's one for you: :drink: ...damn did I use another emoticon? :P Oops! :thumbsup:

[ballaratdragons]

Mate, I used to enjoy reading what you had to say.

You've just proved me wrong in what I thought.
You obviously don't understand humour but certainly know how to put people down.
Where's my ego trip? Because I thought it was funny that a newbie referred to the others as Newbies?
Not picking on Craig, just finding amusement in his comment.

Sheesh :rolleyes:

Can't say anything in here without being jumped on!

[multiweb]

Nah mate. Take it easy. Not having a go in anyway. All good :thumbsup:

[CraigS]

For Ken;



Cheers

[avandonk]

Jeez Ken what would you know! You silly old fella. You should stop teaching those kids about astronomy and be really smart people like us.
You too can win pointless arguments like the rest of us smart fellas.

Berty

[CraigS]

Learning makes a difference …

Patience and respect make it happen .. perhaps (?) ..

:) .. oops !

Cheers

[casstony]

I think Ken and Marc are conspiring to make fun of my thread :P :D ;) :lol: :thumbsup: :).

Seriously though, I've noticed a few gentle spirits on the forum who never seem to have anything bad to say; they set a standard for the rest of us to live up to.

[ballaratdragons]

. . . and your point?

or rather, your accusation?

[ballaratdragons]

Sorry Tony, no Conspiracy. Just trying to prove your theory is correct ;)

[CraigS]

Ken,

I'm no fighter and I'm no arguer.

I respect you and your numerous, generous contributions.

I admire you and your achievements.

I try my best to productively and positively contribute to these forums.

I am merely sharing from my experiences.

Cheers & Regards, Craig.

[ballaratdragons]

and I thank you.

But why the attacks for merely attempting a small sarcastic humorous statement (go back and re-read my original post).

Are people really getting that tightly strung?

I too hate controversy and argument. That is why I stopped posting in here for almost 2 years.
I found it easier to not bother posting than to constantly argue.
Now I start posting again and look what happens.

Chill folks.

Tony, it's all your fault anyway for starting this experiment ;)

[TrevorW]

Someone once said that unless you have something good to say don't say anything

As a lot of us don't really know each other, face to face, and written words can often be misconstrued, read out of text, I tend to view this banter with an open mind and think DILLIGAF

;):P

[CraigS]

Ken;

I think there may still be some bruises (or at least, sensitivities) from the recent events.

Tony has provided an outlet for relief/healing.

Thanks Tony … you're a wise man.

I find communications a very interesting topic ..
I'm lousy at it most of the time and I've been that way all my life !
I'm just here to learn about Astro, Cosmo and life.
I'm enjoying everyone's company.

Cheers

[casstony]

Another quote from the link in the first post:

"Be forgiving if miscommunication does occur. We all make mistakes—if someone does offend you, remember the difficulties of effective online communication. Likewise, if you offend, take the time to apologize and explain that you did not mean to wound. Common courtesies such as this really do go a long way."

It's well worth reading the entire article at the link. Remember that the miscommunication happens at both ends, the message being sent by the poster can be poorly worded or the recipient can misread the post, or both.

[Bassnut]

Yeah, how boring would that be :P, have you noticed the posts with agro get the most hits?.



Oh, dont I know it ;), thank god for emoticons, when you remember to use them :D.



I had to goggle that, nice one, at least you view and with an open mind :thumbsup:. Forums such as this are a social exchange, for entertainment, not just an information exchange, which would be deadly boring. I look forward to a bit of argy bargy, brightens the day, and can cause a good chuckle on occassions :).

[CraigS]

No worries Tony ..

Ken, I apologise if my post implied to 'one up' you. That was never my intention.

Cheers

[casstony]

Argy bargy is ok if you know the other person can handle it and is on the same page as you. Often that is not the case and the person on the recieving end can be distressed by poorly chosen words. Polite disagreement/constructive debate is a good thing, personal insult is not (eg. implying someone is a troll).

The main point of this thread is to point out that many unnecessary arguments occur through simple miscommunication - this is an area where we can all make improvement.

[wavelandscott]

Remember there is also an "ignore" option that allows you to create a list of folks who's posts you can ignore...

[Screwdriverone]

I think the easiest way to make your opinions clear, is to use grammar and punctuation!

That's what it's there for.

:)

And an emoticon all by itself does wonders to increase the brevity of a post!

See what I mean??

Cheers ;)

Chris

[iceman]

Very good advice.

[Hypnotist]

I felt insulted and I was hurt:sadeyes: when some of you (you know who you are) started picking on me. Miscommunication is a terrible thing!

Bart

[CraigS]

Bart;

In my view, effective communication is a two way street.

On that street, one has to give a bit, to get a bit.

And then the responsibility lies with both parties.

Both have to yield, in order for progress to occur.

… in my view, that is. (And feel free to disagree with that view) ...

Cheers

[Barrykgerdes]

I have read through this thread a number of times to try to get at the real gist of it. It seems to me to be a veiled reference to some or a misquoted, poorly worded post or posts, posted by some person or persons unnamed.

I know there are a lot of "tongue in cheek" posts on this forum that may be construed as offensive. We tend to use emicons to convey that the post is not really serious. This is not always the case however. There are also some really nasty posts that have slipped by the moderators but this is what will always happen on a public forum. We just need to ignore them.

The language of this forum is understandably English probably the most diverse and complicated language there is. It is full of words that can have opposite meanings depending on context. It is for this reason that communication of thoughts in prose requires a really good grasp of this language to avoid miscommunication particularly in controversial subjects.

As English is no longer taught in schools as I learnt it, particularly where slang and jargon are filtering more and more into mainstream communication, I can see the problem becoming worse over time.

Barry

[Omaroo]

I was going to stay out of this, but this goes a little far. Your post started off by putting a fair few people on tender hooks. If you make a general claim that your brand of scope is better than someone else's brand of scope, then owners of that other brand are going to ask what gives you, with your level of inexperience, the right to claim it. A reference to some YouTube pages isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

A fair few people here, including myself Bart, gave you nothing more than their considered advice which they thought was relevant to your situation - right up to the point that you shot them down by chosing to insult them - dismissing their advice as nothing more than the result of "envy". You also stated that everyone else's advice was "useless". To add injury to insult you proceeded to argue on relevant semantics concerning "envy" and "jealousy". "Miscommunication" indeed. I mean, what the...? I'm not sure how you might think people were going to react to all this. An apology from you at that point would probably have gone a long way to repairing the situation. No-one had been anything other than courteous towards you up until then.





You claim to feel insulted - well, I'm afraid that so do those who were giving you some of their own thoughts - in an effort to help - whether they were all in support of your decision to go with what you have or not. You went on and on, without responding to anyone who you thought wasn't giving you what you wanted to hear, so many of us surmised that you were indeed a "troll" - someone who's main intent is to log onto forums and push their agenda and stir up trouble. A few of us are pretty sensitive to these people, and your pattern of non-response lead to that conclusion for many - me included.

Go and have a long hard think about how people might react to all of this. It's a two way street. I don't care how old you are - manners matter, and especially when its you asking for the advice. You're old enough to realise what you've said. Plenty of people come on here and ask for, and get advice, and are grateful for it. You weren't, and here we are. You could yet be a very valuable asset to this forum, and quite frankly I hope so. You seem to have the passion for it, and time will hopefully temper the discordant approach. I personally wish you well and hope that you do great things with the new gear. All I can end with is that I hope you have a decent camera - it'd be a real shame if you didn't intend to plug it on the rear of the beast.

[Alchemy]

Probably due to a recent thread that was blocked, subsequently restarted and now removed completely. I presume it got completely out of hand.

On to other threads, probably the most misunderstood from my point of view anyway is in the imaging section, where advice on how an image could be improved, is taken as personal, I understand given the time and effort put into producing an image is considerable, only to have someone say you missed.... ( whatever) can be frustrating, but if the critique is considered and actions taken to improve it, ( note often the how to is included by someone) then you will find your images will improve. And it's NOT a personal attack.

My 2c worth for better understanding.

[DavidTrap]

To be labelled "envious" or told that you are "picking on" someone when you have tried to offer what you believe to be sound advice is "hurtful" too.

Failing to respond to advice or even engage in dialogue is essentially disrespectful. I don't profess to know everything, but I did try to relate someone's planned purchase to my own experience and suggest why I thought they should reconsider.

Life (or a forum) is like a sewer - what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

DT

[casstony]

I think that's the critical concept for that thread - Bart is (perhaps) guilty of being young, brash, lacking in wisdom, contemptuous of authority - fairly typical for the teenage years(I was one once). Teenagers require patience and subtle guidance from their elders, and to feel included during the rocky formative years.

I had hoped to keep names out of this thread, but if people feel the need to get into specifics it might be more productive to express how a post made you feel (to promote understanding) rather than repeating the tit-for-tat.

The subject of this thread has general relevance to any on-line forum and wasn't intended to relate specifically to the thread mentioned above.

[marc4darkskies]

Nah!! Definitely think it's more like a box of chocolates!!! :lol: And BTW, Cadbury is definitely better than Nestle!! Isn't it?!

Funny you know, I could never be truly insulted by a 15 yo!! I can remember though that it's very easy for a 15 yo to be insulted by us "mature" folk! Respect is another matter for sure, and the older you are the less excuse you have for not showing it.

Miscommunication is not the issue IMO. Misunderstanding is what happens and that can only be mitigated by listening, respect and wisdom. Thankfully all these things should improve with age ... right?!!

Cheers, Marcus

[GTB_an_Owl]

i have been dealing with a council matter (read dispute here) for over 2 years now.

i soon learnt to abide by the following procedure

1 be very concise in the letter YOU write - read it 3 times before you send it
2 read the letter of reply
3 put it in a safe that has a 24 hour timer on it
4 go to the sound proof room and yell and swear as much as you like
5 read the letter again the next day when the timer expires
6 read each line over and over again until you think you know what is being said
7 read BETWEEN the lines
8 read what they haven't said in the letter

i have learnt more from what council haven't said, than from what they have

i have also learnt that you can say a lot, and still say nothing

geoff

[AstralTraveller]

Congratulations!! You can now stand for parliment. :D

[GTB_an_Owl]

David! - i can tell you

anyone that works for Gosford City Council that i have dealt with - is aptly suited for that role

geoff

[Hypnotist]

Well those YouTube pages proved to be a great source in showing how easily an older man can pick up a C14! I heard from others who seemed convinced too, so you're somewhat on your own.





Excuse me sir I actually responded to the people who were friendly and understanding to me! In the beginning I tried to ignore those who were aggressive towards me, but then I had to do something.



Firstly people reacted very kindly towards me in comparison to others (who might that be...?) who wanted to shred me to pieces with their comments: there are people who can give advice and there are some who can't!

Also I really hope I can become an asset to this forum, since I probably the only one here experimenting with a EdgeHD 1400 and a Nikon D40x!

Bart

[Omaroo]

Any perceived "aggressiveness" from many was in response to your unbridled cockiness Bart, nothing more. I couldn't give a hoot normally. Not sure why you're trying to single me out, as a fair few others were of my opinion and language too. I can take it, so whatever... dude. :lol: Scope advice was sound - it came from experience.

A D40 eh? Well, I'm one of the few that use mine for astrophotography. Coincidence, no?

[bartman]

Bartholemew
otium sursum vir.
profundus spiritus.
rumex est in ordo
ego puto


"Funny you know, I could never be truly insulted by a 15 yo!! I can remember though that it's very easy for a 15 yo to be insulted by us "mature" folk! Respect is another matter for sure, and the older you are the less excuse you have for not showing it."

Soo true!!!!
Bartman ( not Bart:D)

[Hypnotist]

Chris,
I remember you having posted things on the D40(x)! Geez, I hope you could give me some useful tips on how to use it! :P
I have no idea how to use it!
Thanks and clear skies
Bart

[Omaroo]

No problems matey. When you're ready. It's a good astro camera, it just needs to be handled a little differently to the Canons, et al.