Tak mounts

[sejanus]

Hey guys

I'm getting a little frustrated by the wait times on the G11 and am wondering about the Tak mounts.

I might still stick it out for the G11 but if I don't - are the Tak mounts hard to use? I've never used one - I understand their mechanicals are top notch with conservative load ratings but the interface to control them appears a bit rudimentary at best from what I've seen on google.

[Tandum]

You'll need a pc and an rs232 connection to make a tak mount goto. There is a new handset on the market to enable goto but they are very new. I normally turn mine on holding down the S1 button on the handset to make it track for southern hemisphere then point it at a star, tighten the clutches and then sync the scope in the sky on that star. So long as polar is good and it's level it will put targets on the ccd sensor across the whole sky from there, both side of meridian.

[sejanus]

On the PC, do you use your own software (i.e. things like starry nights or other similar) or is it taks own software?

[Tandum]

I believe new mounts come with tak software but I didn't get it with mine. I use The Sky and the temma ascom driver. The temma ascom driver lets you park the mount (and other tricks), the temma driver that comes with the sky does not.

[issdaol]

Hi,

Depending on your loading you might want to look at the either of the Tak EM200, EM400 or EM500 mounts. (They also make massive research/observatory mounts but I am sure you are not interested in those :))

I have a EM400 and found it to be a very good mount and whisper quiet. I was amazed how quite when I first used it as my prior mounts were quite noisy (I now call them the Diesel's :D). Construction and mechanical quality is excellent with excellent counterweights.

Only issue is they do not come with a GOTO handset as standard and the PC/Laptop software is a bit primitive. Also the mount/tripod does not have an in-built bubble level.

There is actually some great Software/GOTO control options for Laptop/PC, Windows Mobile, Palm, IPhone 3GS and IPAD.

I personally use either my IPhone or IPAD with wireless control that uses the SkyFi Wireless Contoller and SkyVoyager. It takes literally 10 minutes to get this up and running as when you order the bundle it comes with everything necessary to get up and running.

Also there is Astromist which a lot of Tak owners use and runs on Palm, Windows Mobile and just converted to IPhone 3GS/IPAD.

The writer of Starmap Pro (for IPhone 3GS/IPAD) is also writing a wireless Tak control into the app (not sure when that will be out).

Here are some useful links for you to research:

Wireless Control and Software for I-Phone/IPAD:
http://www.carinamobile.com/
http://www.astromist.com/
http://www.star-map.fr/

Software for Laptop:
http://www.bisque.com/sc/pages/TheSkyX-Professional-Edition.aspx

Good source of Information on the Mounts:
http://www.takahashi-europe.com/en/products.mounts.php

Local Australian Distributor/Reseller:
http://www.astronomy-electronics-centre.com.au/

Hope this helps

Cheers

[that_guy]

get Takahashi EM3500... :D:D:D:D:lol:

[issdaol]

:eyepop:

Going for a bargain basement $88000.00 USD or get the special bundle with the FCT200 8" APO for $227000.00 USD:rofl:

[rcheshire]

I have a 10 yo EM-200B, no refinements - runs like silk. Predecessor to the USD III mounts, from what I can gather.

It's a very solid, very accurate piece of kit, even without guiding - once you get the SH polar alignment sorted out; periodic error +/-5 arc seconds peak-to-peak at worse.

The tripod is 3x tree trunks, more like a surveyors. I've kicked it several times while imaging, and it didn't move. No need to level it for polar alignment with the Tak system. The only hassle is that the polar alignment reticule is designed for the NH - so must be read in reverse. You get used to it.

Dennis (member) has a spreadsheet for download for real time conversion.

Here is a link to a post that illustrates the SH polar alignment issues (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/attachment_browse.php?a=79762). White digits are the SH equivalents, but that's fairly obvious:)

You won't be disappointed with the quality. But then the new G11's are reputed to be much improved without the usual modifications - or so I am told.

The only addition so far is an ADM dual dovetail.

[issdaol]

Sounds like you have the wooden tripod :thumbsup: I have seen those and they must be one of the nicest wooden tripods around.

I have the adjustable metal tripod which is rock solid.

[that_guy]

I have the perfect thing i can do if i have one of these... strap myself on with a pair or 10x50 binos... and goto my way around the skies :D:D:D:D:D:thumbsup::screwy::screwy :

[sejanus]

thanks heaps for the info guys, especially issdaol - reading up on all those links now

cheers

[Paul Haese]

Gavin,

I have an EM400. Nice mount precision made but some issues that you might want to consider.


There is no home position on the mount, meaning it cannot be used as a remote mount.
There is the issue of having to hold down the s2 key to get it to track for the southern hemisphere. It also means it cannot be used in a remote system.
It does not come with a saddle plate, you need to buy one separately. Nor do the mounts come with a tripod, you need to buy this separately too.
However, these mounts do produce fantastic images, when combined with the right guiding. Each part of the mount is silky smooth and a real joy to use. Polar alignment is fantastic when the knobs move like skates on ice.
The mounts need a decent hand controller to be made by Tak. Most high end mounts now have good hand controllers with one exception being the PME (I could be wrong but that is what I am told).

Best of luck with your decision.

[leon]

Mate, both are excellent mounts, I had g11, and it worked perfectly, it is probably down to funds. :shrug:

I IMHO would choose the G11 ;) with Gemini, spot Leon :thumbsup:

Leon :thumbsup:

[beren]

:)....I have a EM-200 Temma11, easy to use, no issues so far at all. As mentioned you need a PC/rs232 connection for goto. Mine came with the Pegasus21 software, tried once but continued with Sky6 which I'm more familiar with. The mount once balanced correctly guides brilliantly {no noticeable backlash in DEC}, I use a ST-4 and STV, the mount didn't come with a autoguider cable. The polar scope is a great feature, if imaging I have the mount set up with a payload on a set of wheely bars which is moved into position on dusk, takes usually about 5 minutes to sight sigma octanis {takes some practice ;)} and then centre a bright star on the CCD and sync the mount with Sky6 and good to go :D.
I think the mounts max loading capacity of 18kg is right, the C9.25 I have decked out with camera/dew shield/finderscope etc is at the limit for the mount. Good luck with your choice.

[issdaol]

Hi Paul,

How old is your EM400? It sounds like you may have the older version with the old manual hand controller that is no longer sold (unless you get it second hand).


The newer EM400 manual mount controllers are pre-configured for Southern Hemisphere use so you no longer need to worry about this. Also the manual hand controller is overidden by the Software/Driver for a PC/IPAD/IPHONE setup
The EM400 still does not have a "native park" but this is also a function provided in particular software drivers that are available to buy or download.
Yes the EM400 does not come with a saddle plate but the tak mount plate is not terribly expensive and is a rock solid item. Also there are several very well engineered 3rd Party Saddle/Dovetail plates designed for the tak mounts.

http://www.robincasady.com/Astro/index.html


Yes the tripod needs to be purchased separately but the tak tripods are rock solid and superb (both the wooden and metal) but I would recommend the metal for heavier loads. But they are not the cheapest tripods out there. You can also very easly download to-scale diagrams for putting the mount on a pier
The manual hand controller is definately improved over the older EM400 hand controller but is a poor effort when other manufacturers offer computerised hand controllers as standard. That being said the IPhone/IPAD/PC apps mentioned in my prior post make this redundant and significantly better than a lot of other controllers out there. Even with the G11 and some of the other mounts the price of the mount is separate to the price of the tripod/software/controller unless you specifically choose the bundled options.
Gavin if you determine that the EM400 is the correct mount for your requirement all you need to do when ordering is specify the mount + the tripod (and the appropriate mount plate if using a tak scope). It will be shipped setup for southern hemisphere with the new manual controller. You can then order the appropriate computerised controllers suited to your purpose and a dovetail/saddle combo as well.

Beware though that the Tak EM400 or EM500 setup is not the cheapest on the planet so you really need to analyse your cost vs benefits to make sure that you are getting what you really need. ( I think that both the Losmandy G11 and Titan with Gemini and Tripod are actually cheaper)

I am trying to get to the IISAC event this year so you are welcome to checkout and use my setup if it helps you get a better idea :).

Cheers

[Paul Haese]

Phil my unit is just under 2 years old. So the new hand controller may well be better. I would not bother with an EM500 because for that price you can have a paramount ME, which is far superior.

[Tandum]

Here is one quicky that most tak mount owners don't know. The gearboxes in you're drives have plastic gears. Do not get a cable tangle or it will cost you.

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.sanryusha.co.jp/motor/stepping/p43g.html&ei=nvSGTMCuDov8vQP62fCeBA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCAQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dp43hg%2Bstepping%2Bmot or%26hl%3Den

Here is the suppliers web site.

I have a degee in looking 5hit up :)

[issdaol]

You may have to throw out your junky EM200 as well then :P

[gregbradley]

I doubt the gears are plastic. I have had my NJP mount end up guiding to the stops of the mount and nothing broke. The worm and gears on the motor are metal, as you can see them. Internally in the motor I can't say. But my understanding was the motors that drive the mount are hand wound by Tak themselves and are not an off the shelf item. They spin at 19000 rpm and that is why they have that great jet engine whinning sound that I like )obviously not a loud sound!). I will post the question on the Tak Uncensored site and see what the reply is.

I have had a Mountain Instruments MI250 (very similar to a G11 but a step up), a Vixen Sphinx (junk), Tak NJP and Paramount ME. Naturally the Paramount is the best (and by far the most expensive). It is the best by a decent margin as well. The NJP is the next best (I still have it and use it). The MI250 was also good and used the Gemini system.

The main plus of the Tak mount in my opinion is it is very well built mechanically, extremely easy to use and there is a very nice Temma Driver done by Chuck Faranda for use with Ascom (both are free) that enables you to park the mount, control the guiding parameters more closely etc.

The Tak mount synchs and is accurate as has been pointed out very very quickly - this is amazing. A couple of synchs and bang your go-tos are somewhat accurate. Good enough to find a target at 1200mm focal length. Not good enough probably at 3 metres though.

You could improve that by using Software Bisque's T-Point which models your mouints performance and will tell you how far off your polar alignment is and how much you need to adjust the knobs to get it more accurate.

The NJP was replaced by the EM400 and my understanding is it is a beefier version and can handle more payload.

I have at times though struggled to get perfectly round stars with my NJP. The Paramount works at a much higher level of accuracy enabling it to achieve almost perfectly round stars at long focal length. But again this comes at a price (Paramount ME is about US$14,500 new plus shipping and GST etc etc).

So really you are comparing Tak EM200/400 to G11 right?

There are lots of G11 users on this site and they can advise better. It is my understanding though that an out of the box G11 is no match for an EM400. The G11 would have to be upgraded to match the Tak with Ovision worm and perhaps other things. My use of Gemini was it took a lot longer to setup the mount and get go-tos working than the simple Tak setup. But it would probably favour a permanent setup. If you are setting up each night the Tak would be infinitely more user friendly. Gemini is a clever system but takes a while to learn. It has some interesting features - the Polar align action is clever but TPoint is probably superior and you can use Tpoint on any mount.

The main weakness of Tak is no PEC available on their mounts. They rely on their mechanical accuracy in the first place. Having just started using PEC for the first time with a Paramount ME I would have to say that is a big minus for Tak. That means the best you will get out of your Tak will be about 4 arc seconds PE unless you have an exceptional version. Tak claims 7 arc seconds is the standard for their mounts (that is lowish compared to lower end mounts that have 20 or 30 arc seconds).
PEC on a decent mount can reduce PE to 1 arc second or less with the right gear (AP or Paramount and others).

Another big competitor to Tak and perhaps a bit more expensive are AstroPhysics mounts. The AP900 is a competitor to the EM400. I would probably choose an AP900 over a Tak EM400 now as it has PEC available and I think it will guide past the meridian (meridian flips are a royal pain and often occur at such inconvient times at night!).
I know the AP1200 will guide all the way around without needing a meridian flip perhaps the AP900 does as well - if you have the budget that is well worth considering. There is also the AP Mach GTO1. That is a competitor for an EM200.

There are many up and coming mounts like ASA that use a different approach. Perhaps worth considering. Not as well known and probably hard to find out how consistent their quality and/or how far they are through the beta bug removing process.

I hope this helps.

Greg.

[netwolf]

Greg this maybe a bit OT, but what do you find lacking int he Sphinx. Is it the Starbook that is the main issue or something else mechanical? From what I have read and heard Vixen's are usually very good mecahnically speaking and are often overlooked because of the starbook. How does it compare in your experince mechanically to Tak or G11's?

If I had the money I think I would go the AP900 over the EM400. IF only you could use the AP GTO ont the TAK. But another thought occurs to me can you retrofit the Tak with a diffrent Goto system? I think it uses servo motors and I use my Gemini Servo motors with a Sitech controller. Could the Tak servo's be wired up to a GeminiII or Sitech or AP GTO? I know Parallax Instruments mounts come with AP GTO. And I think even MI250 had the option for AP GTO. I know there is at leastwas one person on the yahoo groups for Stiech that converted his old AP non goto mount to Sitech.

Is the Tak motor and encoder wiriing intergrated to the controller box internaly or is it a external modular connection like the G11 Gemini setup?

Regards
Fahim

[gregbradley]

I am not really trying to bash Vixen as they generally offer very good value for money. The Sphinx may have since been fixed up but when I had one it was bugged. I had to do fixes to it to correct Vixen's errors. It was a step up from a Meade Alt Az mount but it needed some work. Also at the time I was brand new to autoguiding so that added to the frustration. Autoguiding got added later to the mount and cost extra even though it was originally marketed as doing autoguiding.

I could not get the autoguiding to work but then I was using a ToUcam for guiding.

The axes were too stiff out of the factory and needed correction to loosen them. The Starbook is very bright and dazzles your night vision. It also attracts bugs like crazy in summer. It had a very limited database as well so only the well known objects were available (may since have been improved).

Mechanically the mount looked the part but for the price (AUD$3600) I think a G11 would leave it in the dust. It was also only capable of a light payload. It could not handle the light Tak FS152 for example. I'd say at a guess it would be limited to about a 110mm refractor for payload and probably nothing by Tak (which tend to be quite solid) beyond an FSQ.

I agree, I'd go an AP over an EM400 for the more versatile electronics and PEC. But Tak mounts are still very very nice and I love how easy they are to setup and use. They are particularly good if you know how to use the polar scope which is a skill for southern hemisphere. I never mastered it.

Greg.

[issdaol]

Hi Fahim,

The EM400 has the complete drive system and encoders built into the mount casing. It comes in 4 pieces: tripod head, mount counter weight shaft (with 2 x 8kg counterweights) and a relatively basic manual hand controller. On the bottom of the mount casing are ports to plug in the power, manual hand controller, Autoguider and a PC/Laptop.

The fact that everything is built into the mount casing does not make the EM400 an easily "customisable" unit unless you are inclined to pull it appart and make changes yourself (which will void the Tak Warranty). The Losmandy and AP mounts (and others) may offer more flexibility of configuration and so may be more suitable to someone that is after a more dynamically customisable rig.

I think all the mounts mentioned have their positive and negative aspects but these very depending on the users requirements and preferences. Generally they are all great mounts.

We should also remember that the particular models are not a static design. I now know of 3 different variations of the Tak EM400. Obviously Takahashi and other manufacturers improve their models over time to provide enhancements or remove bugs. I am sure that this is true of all the other good mount manufacturers.

To make a correct judgment on each of these mounts you would need to track down someone that has specifically used them and has hopefully used the latest or close to latest release version of that model.

For me I got the latest brand new EM400 at a great price due to negotiation and a favourable AUD/YEN position. It has performed flawlessly for me and I find the build quality excellent. I don't really miss the PEC function at the moment as I am doing more visual work and not much imaging at all. Also I know that there is very cost effective software for both I-Phone and PC/Laptop that provides mount modelling, n-star alignment and advanced visual GOTO.

Cheers

[beren]

Phil the extra unmarked port on the new EM-400 models have you heard or is it written in the manual what it may be plus do they still run on 24v ? Sorry Gavin for the deviation.


Seen on the main Japanese Tak site there is a announcement for a upgrade on the polar scopes for the NJP/JPZ to extend the usability to 2050.

[marki]

Hi Greg

I own both sphinx mounts, the SXW (the type you had??) and the SXD. They may look similar but are two very different mounts. The SXW has stiff axes because it does not have bearings on either the dec or RA axes (I have pulled mine apart) nor does it have bearings on the worms. Mine does have autoguiding, perm Pec etc etc. I have managed to take some nice pics with this mount. The SXD, however, has bearings in all axes as well as the worms. This along with more powerful (but noisier) drive motors and more precise worm gear/worm wheel has significantly increased payload and accuracy of the mount and it is a breeze to use for AP. The PE on these mounts has been measured at +5/-7 which is fair and I have no problems with 15min exposures when autoguiding. The latest software update has been specially written for the southern hemisphere and fixes all the bugs the previous version had in tracking in the south. Sure they are not in the same league as the Tak or Paramount mounts but are very light and portable which is why I bought it. They certainly are no junk by any measure of the stick.

Cheers

Mark

[issdaol]

Hi Gavin,

24v was one of the EM400 variations :) One variation had separate 12v and 24v inputs for normal speed (12v) and high speed (24v) modes.

The newer EM400's (past 12-16 months) only have a 12v port.

Interestingly enough the latest EM400 still has the Normal and High speed modes. They must ramp up the voltage internally now depending on what mode you select. I havent done any hands on elecrical for quite a while but with todays components this is pretty easy to do on the required scale and also drive it by software.

As for the spare port it is referenced by takahashi as an "upgrade port". I have not yet been able to track down what this means. In my version the panel actually has a Mini DIN-4 (SVH-S Style) port there rather than the blanked out panel.

Cheers

[RickS]

Astro Solutions has a hand controller for Tak mounts under development: http://www.astrosolutionsllc.com/AstroSolutions_LLC/Products.html. They are shipping in November according to Optcorp: http://www.optcorp.com/product.aspx?pid=14989

Cheers,
Rick.

[Tandum]

That's right mate, I make this stuff up as I go along. I even found and translated a random Japanese web site showing stepper motors with plastic gears from a random manufacturer. Give me a break. Mine is a Temma 2 Jr, with a crook gearbox motor, I looked it up, others may be different, who knows. I was warned not to post that info, stupid me.

[netwolf]

There was a thread on CN about a modification to the Sphinx mount to allow use of a Celestron Nexstar handcontroller. That should improve the useability of it quiet a bit. Not sure what it costs though.

[gregbradley]

Thanks Mark. Its good they fixed it up. It certainly looked like an excellent mount and had good fit and finish but the finer parts you mention obviously let it down at the time.


Greg.


I own both sphinx mounts, the SXW (the type you had??) and the SXD. They may look similar but are two very different mounts. The SXW has stiff axes because it does not have bearings on either the dec or RA axes (I have pulled mine apart) nor does it have bearings on the worms. Mine does have autoguiding, perm Pec etc etc. I have managed to take some nice pics with this mount. The SXD, however, has bearings in all axes as well as the worms. This along with more powerful (but noisier) drive motors and more precise worm gear/worm wheel has significantly increased payload and accuracy of the mount and it is a breeze to use for AP. The PE on these mounts has been measured at +5/-7 which is fair and I have no problems with 15min exposures when autoguiding. The latest software update has been specially written for the southern hemisphere and fixes all the bugs the previous version had in tracking in the south. Sure they are not in the same league as the Tak or Paramount mounts but are very light and portable which is why I bought it. They certainly are no junk by any measure of the stick.

Cheers

Mark[/QUOTE]

[gregbradley]

Sorry I was not trying to invalidate your post. You did not mention you had pulled yours apart and saw the gears, I thought you were speculating. I remember a post on the Tak group once saying the motors were handwound. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean no plastic reduction gears in the motors. I know my NJP does not strip out if it
the mount hits the stops if left too long. I did it once by accident - no damage.

I suppose there is also an argument that some plastic gears may be superior to metal as the can be more accurate.

I asked the question on the Tak Group, only one response so far - an old Em2 that had metal reduction gears. Not a very large sample. If plastic gears are generally used I imagine Tak or its dealers would withhold that.

Greg.