Skywatcher 200mm (8 inch) Newtonian on EQ5 mount

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day all.

I'm after my first telescope and am having a brain melt researching which one to get. My priorities are:

- Compactness, light in weight, easy to take places (something that can fit in a car boot)
- Cost must be reasonable (I'm on a budget!)
- A scope that will do a decent job at seeing a lot of stuff and won't dissapoint (planet detail and deep sky objects such as galaxies are my favourites)
- A mount which tracks objects (I don't want to nudge a dobsonian around)
- My preference is something to suit observational astronomy
- Something with Astrophotography capabilities, although this is not as important as observational astronomy
- A scope with decent optics (focal ratio and aperature are priorities. I don't want something with problems such as coma due to focal ratio)

So given all that, I think I've found a scope to fit my requirements. It would be good to hear people's thoughts on it, being:

Skywatcher 200mm (8 inch) Newtonian on EQ5 mount
- Code: SW600
- Diameter: 200mm
- Focal Length: 1000mm
- Focal Ratio: F/5
- Highest practical power: 472x
- Mount: EQ5
- Tube dimensions: 24cm x 92cm
- Tripod height: 97-121cm
- Anyone know the weight of the tube and the eq mount?

Cost right now at Andrews is $799. Looks to be a bargain. So what's the catch?

Just hoping upon hope that this could be the ONE. I read somewhere that newtonians on equatorial mounts are a joke? Apparantly they're difficult because the eyepiece can point in weird directions?

Also, what's the difference between an EQ5 mount and a much more expensive HEQ5 mount. Are they both operated by electricity and not by hand? I want to track objects to look at continuously without the need to re-align the scope. Hopefully both mounts would do this. Are both mounts suited to long exposure astrophotograhy?

The short length (1m) should be much easier to fit in a car boot? Can these be fit in a typical car boot? Anyone have a personal experience? Other 8 inch dobs have a length of 1.2m (F/6).

Would an F/5 focal ratio be an issue in terms of coma? Can it be fixed at all if this is a problem?

So many questions that my head is now hurting. Better go have a beer or three...

Cheers
Jowel

[WadeH]

Hi there Jowel,

Yes the world of telescopes can be a bit of a headache at times, however I'll see if I can help at all. As you can see in my signature I use exactly the setup you are seeking infomation about. So here goes:




Ok, yes they are fiddly and you are continually screwing/unscrewing the tube rings and spinning the tube within so the eypiece is located more user friendly. You do get used to this.



The EQ5 is fully manual which is not so bad once you have a good set of charts and is great for expanding your knowedge of the sky. Once you align the mount, which is very simple when only doing visual observing, tracking is quite simple.

I find that my scope is amazing and I am still surprised at how much I can see through it. Part of the trick is not to expect to see coffee table book quality views. e.g. you are doing well to see faint mag. 10 galaxies as smugdes. They are not called faint fuzzies for nothing!!
It is also worthwhile investing in a set of good quality eyepieces. I do most of my viewing with a 21mm (47X), a 13mm (76X) and a 2.5X powermate. Great! To give a little idea of its capabilities I have seen Pluto through it on an exceptional night.

Also no problems with transporting as we have a 4X4 and station wagon but I do think a smaller vehicle should be not great drama.

[Screwdriverone]

Jeez Jowel!

ANOTHER choice? I thought you were looking at collapsible 8 or 10" ones? AND you want to do Astrophotos too? Man!

Firstly, I currently have a collapsible 12" (cost me $1499) AND a Black Diamond 8" on an HEQ5 pro ($1349) and I would have to say while I still love and use both of them, if I had to pick one which could do visual AND Astrophotography, the 8" HEQ5 is the one. I am still amazed at how much the 8" can pull in compared to the MUCH larger mirror on the 12", BUT the 12" Dob absolutely is mind blowing on globulars (my favourite) where they are not AS stunning on the 8" and you CANT do Astrophotography on a dob

You will NOT have much fun with a manual EQ5, even if it has a tracking motor in RA and for AP, it wont be much good as I have found out in my WOEFUL attempts with my EQ2 and RA motor. The precision even on the EQ5 is just not there. The HEQ5 also has an Guider port AND GOTO, which I am seriously in love with after star hopping with my first two scopes and when you want to "tour" the night sky is sensational fun. The guiding port is a necessity if you want pics longer than 30 seconds without blurring of the stars.

In comparison, with my Canon 1000D on my spanking new HEQ5 combo, I cranked out 3 images within an hour on the second night I had it.

For portability, the tube comes off and is wrapped in a doona, the mount is collapsed and also wrapped in a doona and fits across the back of the car boot. Setting up is a breeze, whack the tube on the mount and align and off you go. (after polar/drift aligning - roughly for visual and finely for AP)

SO, take it from someone who now has THREE telescopes after thinking his 130mm reflector on an EQ2 could take photos and do for visual (and keeping in mind you said you DONT want to push around a dob), If you are seriously contemplating an excellent all round telescope that CAN do Astrophotography as well as satisfy your visual needs FOR A LONG TIME as you will probably run out of patience before you get through ALL of the objects in the goto controller.......

Get an HEQ5 Pro with a Black Diamond 8" tube on it. $1399 I think they cost now at Andrews....

Astonishingly sexy to look at and really has bang for your buck and ticks all your boxes you asked for.

By the time you have eliminated ALL possibilities out there, you will have saved up the extra cash over the cost of the 10" dob and take my word for it, if you have ANY sort of gadget freak lurking inside you, driving an HEQ5 from the controller (something my 10 yr old can do better than me) or by hooking it up to a laptop and clicking the screen and watching the scope whirr and slew around the sky to show you what you want - IS SERIOUSLY COOL!

You WILL need a power tank for powering the scope (mine cost me $40 from Super Cheap Auto) and as Wade said, you can spin the tube around in the rings to get the eyepiece right for visual, its not THAT bad.

Now, be a good boy and stop being paralysed by choice, and listen to the words of wisdom of Uncle Chris and toddle off down to Andrews when you have saved your $1400 and do youself a favour and buy yourself a BD200N on an HEQ5 pro and tell them I sent you.

There's a good chap! ;)


PS. I have attached the pics I took as well as one of the scope itself to show you what I mean.

Cheers

Chris

[RobF]

Yep. +1 what Chris said.

8" Newt on a HEQ5pro is a sweet spot for price and performance. EQ6 if you can stretch it that far to cover yourself better for the future (but bit more to lug about too....)

Can be a bit of fluffing about to get prime focus for astrophotography - worth reading up on threads regarding that here on IIS.

I bought my rig from Andrews and service was excellent....

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks everyone for the cool advice. I've returned from a few longnecks to find some wonderful answers. Now I'm excited. Only problem is collecting the dosh I need.

So much to think about! The more I think, the bigger and better I want. You can't win when looking for your first scope!

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Chris,

In terms of size, how long exactly is the tube and the mount. I need to get a clear idea whether it would ALL fit in the BOOT of my small sized car (a 2000 Hyundai Accent). I'm hoping nothing would be more than 1m long???

Also, what type of weight is everything here? Tube, mount, counterweights etc.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Oh, and another Q for Chris...

In terms of focal length and focal ratio. Is an F/5 OK and reasonable? Have you noticed visual problems due to the low ratio?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

Yep, it should fit in the boot of the Hyundai nicely.

As for weight, there is two 5kg counterweights, the tube weighs about 9kg and the mount with the tripod weighs about 20kg. You move it around in bits (take off the counterweights) and its fine. Think of an average size 10 year old boy and that's about how much it weighs all up.

Keep in mind that since I bought it, I have pretty much exclusively used it in my backyard in Kellyville Ridge which has a fair amount of Skyglow from Blacktown and Parramatta, so if you are in the Blue Mountains, I would suggest the sky is much darker and therefore, transport is not going to be done as much.

I just measured the folded tripod which is 1m long, the tube is only 93cm. So you should be fine packing in the boot in some doonas for cushioning (and not scratching it all)

Cheers

Chris

[Screwdriverone]

If you look at the corners of the pics I posted on this thread, you can see the stars look a little smeared like a comma or teardrop, which is what coma is, non spherical stars at the edge of the field. This is shown up more in the photos than visually, as my eyepieces (even the ones that come with it) dont really show it up very much, even at F5.

The one that I notice the coma on is the 2" barrel 30mm wide angle one I got from Andrews, where the outer third of the view is pretty bad, but in most cases, I am not looking out there anyway, but in the middle two thirds of the view.

Coma for visual is in most scopes with fast F ratios, you wont really tell the difference visually between an F5 and an F4.5 when it comes to coma. My 12" has it too but as I said, you know its there, and most of the time you can live with it just fine. Don't worry about it in this price range, almost EVERY sub $1500 scope will have it unless its a premium refractor which costs that much just for the tube.

Honestly, I wouldnt worry about coma, its not the number one reason for chosing a scope and when you look through one, the last thing you are really looking for is smeared stars at the very edge of the view. The planet, nebula, globular cluster or binary star in the middle of the field is the thing you are interested in and when it comes to photos, you can fix it with an MPCC (coma corrector) which I have and will be using soon.

Cheers

Chris

[DavidU]

I had a 10" on an EQ mount and I would not hesitate to recommend one.
The 8" on a HEQ5 is a bargain performer for the money.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks again people for your responses.

20kg for the HEQ5 mount is massive! Geez. I think I'll be needing a trolley to carry everything from the car to a setup place. Out of curiousity, how much would an HEQ6 weigh?

Also, just say that during a night of observation I didn't want to track objects, but instead wanted to freely point the scope every which way as I desired. Can this be done or does the mount restrict you to tracking only?

And just a question on 8 inch scopes. I'm aware that if you look through a 10 inch you see everything a bit brighter, and that some objects can be seen in an 10 inch whilst not in an 8 inch. Just wondering if you used an 8 inch for an long exposure astrophotograph would some stuff that is invisible to the eye in an 8 inch actually be seen when taking a photo through the 8 inch? Ie, the photo would collect light for long enough to make out the object when the eye couldn't? Therefore it could possibly deliver what a 10 inch can?

[Red Nine]

Wow! What a great thread.
I've been in the same situation for the past few months, wanting to upgrade my scope. Currently have a 70mm Refractor that my partner and I bought earlier this year. What was intended to start out as just a casual thing, has now really turned into quite an obsession and I well and truly have caught the bug!

What I want in a telescope has been very similar to what Jowel wanted, and have had my eye on the 8" Newt with the HEQ5 mount for a while. But as always, there are so many options out there that I have never really been 100% sure what to buy - whether SCT or larger Refractor or DOB.

However, after reading through the replies here my mind has certainly been made up and will continue saving away and hopefully be looking through this scope in a few months time!

This is my first post, but have been reading through the forum for a while now and I've learnt so much just from reading. Look forward to speaking with you all more!

Evan

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Evan,

Glad you could find use to my waffling on....;)

And :welcome: to IIS. Glad to have you on board.

Cheers

Chris

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

No, not really, 20Kg is easily handled in the components, ie, the tripod, the head, the tube and the counter weights, all very manageable separately (and better for them as you dont whack it on things and scratch or drop them.)

YES, definitely more details and greater reach when taking a photo through the scope than visually as the CMOS or CCD on the camera can STARE :eyepop: at the object for much longer and is MUCH more sensitive to low light than our eyes, so if you can see it with your eyes as a small blob, when you take a picture of it, you WILL see more and also get the colours like in my M20 Trifid shot attached. You DONT see those colours in the eyepiece.

When Visually touring the sky, you simply set the scope's controller to 800x slew and then DRIVE with the up/down & left right cursor pad to point the scope wherever you want it to point.

BEST fun for visual is take a Night's Highlights tour and the scope will cycle through a list of interesting fuzzies, nebulae and clusters visible to the scope for that time of the night. AWESOME fun and all you have to do is sit back and let the scope find the stuff for you.

You can also loosen the clutch knobs and manually point the scope, but its MUCH more fun driving it like a Tank Commander and slewing your turret to where you want.

Trust me, I am a bit of a techno freak and love cool electronic things, and this is one COOL gadget to play with when out under the stars. PLUS, there is the added bonus of being able to take some kick ass photos as well.

Chers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Interesting stuff indeed. Thanks.

An 8 inch seems to be the ideal size. I mean, if I were to get a 10 inch, it would be longer (so more of a problem in taking places), the scope and mount would be heavier and larger, and it would cost more. Yes, it might deliver more things to see, but would it be practical? Am I likely to grab it and go see? Or would it more likely gather dust?

As a beginner I feel the 8 inch will deliver on my expectations and also be easy to take everywhere, meaning it would get a good deal of use. And, it seems that the astrophotography capabilities of the scope would allow the 8 inch scope's potential to be exploited and expanded even further.

It's sorta like having an acoustic guitar compared to an electric guitar. Most of the time I play my acoustic because it's so much easier to grab and play compared to all the effort required to play the electric guitar. Or, sorta like buying a mountain bike - you don't need the wizz bang dual suspension, expensive super bike to have fun. It's better just to get a decent bike that will do the job and make you happy. Something that won't cost the world and will deliver the goods. Always.

Ok time to stop ranting and start drinking my longneck. Tonight it's Coopers.

Interesting stuff indeed.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Ok, one other Q.

Just say I buy this scope and mount and really really get into astrophotography. If I one day decide I want to upgrade the scope, could I perhaps retain the HEQ5 mount and get a new scope such as a refractor? If so, would any type of refractor be comfortable on the HEQ5 mount, no matter what size I one day get?

[RobF]

Hi Jowel

The most common criticism of Newt on an EQ mount for photography is they're vulnerable to wind (large surface area) and a bit awkward to balance well. Once you get past the 8" I think these issues really get quite tricky - the engineers are happy to tweak it all, but mere mortals can get frustrated.

For astrophotography, you really don't want to put much more the 10kg on the HEQ5. I'm not a refractor guy, but I think a high quality 4" refractor might come in around 10kg. You'll have lots to learn and figure out before you need to buy other scopes though.

I suggest people have a look at ezystyles website to see what a well set up Newt rig can do:

http://www.ezystyles.com.au/

Or my pics as per link at bottom....:D

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day again. Thanks for you stuff!

I woke up thismorning with a question. Sure, if I get this scope and mount all seems well. But, what additional equipment do you need for astrophotography? I presume a camera of some sort? Webcam, software etc etc etc. How much extra dosh would I be forking out to take photos through this scope?

I originally started this thread expecting to pay $800. But then it quickly went toup $1400. And now additional dosh for astro exquipment could take it past $2000 possibly? Geez...

Perhaps I should do all this in stages. Maybe the best thing is to buy a dobsonian first, then later buy the mount when I collect enough paychecks, then buy the photo equipment. I'm not sure if I can do it all in one hit :(

Well, this brings me to an important question here. If I'm only going to get a dob now, then I might as well get a 10 inch dob and not an 8 inch. A 10 inch in the short term would deliver many more things for observational astronomy, plus in the long term would be much better for astrophotography - or so I think anyway. As I'll buy the mount later, I can gradually save the money to do so, plus get all the photo equipment later too. My concern though is that the 10 inch is 1.2m long, slightly longer than the 8 inch 1m version. Does anyone have one? What is the exact length and can it fit in a small car boot? And from what I hear I'd need to get an HEQ6 mount, not a HEQ5. How much money does a HEQ6 mount go for these days? And is the weight similar to a HEQ5 or massively larger? And is it longer?

I need to work out if a 10 inch would be practical considering my needs. Is it just too big or is it managable?

My head is hurting again...:shrug:

[bmitchell82]

they are both the same length. about 1.1m the 10" is only fatter.

there is some decent information in here.

Pitfall. the 10" is heavier than the 8" and to properly mount it you will need a minimum of a EQ6 (though not really sufficient) at the lower end though a G11 is better or even a Titan for not the best mount but a sufficient mount for the shear size of a Newtonian. Photography is a gradual thing unless your happy to slip 4-5k for a budget beginner system and 5-7k for a intermediate system up front. much less than what i have just specified you'll be missing parts.

Coma in a 10" is nasty and unless you are using high end collimation equipment it starts on my images at about 50% image scale where as the 8" its 75% possibly a little further. I guess in the end its upto what YOU want out of it. the more you want the more you pay...

Though if i was you ide just go buy something I have seen that you have been filling your head with more and more information for a fair while now instead of actually getting out there and seeing it with your own eyes. It isn't till you get out and start using this equipment that you will learn what is needed for what it is that interests you. There will never be a "catch all" scope that will do everything that can be observed/photographed perfectly. You are on the right track with a dob. :D save your sanity

Brendan

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Brendan. yeah interesting on the 10 inch. Perhaps an 8 inch would be more appropriate for what I'm looking for.

Thing is, I notice that the 8 inch Skywatcher dobsonians on sale have 1200mm focal lengths (these are SW680 models?), whilst the 8 inch tubes on the HEQ5 mounts have 1000mm focal lengths (SW600 models?).

If I were to buy an 8 inch dob now, and later attach it to an HEQ5 mount then I'd prefer getting the 1000mm long version. Is it possoble to find a Skywatcher dobsonian setup with the 1000mm length? If not is it easy to organise one with a shop?

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Ok, another thought...

If I choose the 8 inch, but can't right now afford the HEQ5 mount, the remaining option I have is NOT just to get a dobsonian! Why not stick to the original idea I had at the start of this thread and get one for much cheaper with the EQ5 manual mount! That should satisfy me for a while until I take the plung and get a fully motorised mount and expensive photography gear later.

Interesting!

[that_guy]

you can make yourself a dob mount for your 8" newt and than when you can mount it on HEQ5 or better

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Hi mate. Interesting to hear your thoughts. Any other experiences you can share? I like the idea of learning the sky on a manual mount. Interms of tracking, my main worry is that if I got a dob I'd quickly get annoyed in having to nudge it up and down, left and right to keep it on an object, my interest being planets and the moon. Turning a handle to keep the thing in the middle of the scope would be so much more relaxing than having to use a dob.

[RobF]

You don't have to decide now, but it would be big help if you decided if you're likely to go down the astrophotography path later. There are 3 broad options:

1. Purely visual - invest all the bucks you currently have in as big a dob as you can afford, lift and transport (slightly longer focal length is nice for visual - that's why those dobs tend to be F6)

2. Covered for astrophotography - spend at least $1500 on mount (or more if you can afford it) and worry about camera etc later. You will need to spend thousands more down the road as you've started to realise (cameras, adaptors, laptops, software, cables, autoguiders, 2nd scopes, mounting accessories, analgesics for headaches....;))

3. Compromise setup - something like the 8" on Heq5. A newt on an EQ is a bit of mucking around for visual (eyepiece is often in awkward position) but you can do a lot of visual and grow into quite a bit of photography too.


Why not visit the next local astro club or IIS gathering you can get too and look through scopes and talk to people first? (I didn't though.....just had to buy something...:D)

Remember there's a 4th option too Jowell - lots of people don't research what they want/need and end up frustrated and confused, ultimately selling off quite a bit of expensive gear at 50-75% cost.

[epistle]

Jowel,

I've been in the same boat as you and I just wanted to tell you that i've given up and jumped into the ocean! Glub glub...

I thought about $500 scopes, I thought about $4000 packages. In the end I decided on something more than I can afford, but trust me when I say you will always find a way if you want something!

I'm going to pop my hard earned biccies down on a EQ6Pro+300mm Newt package because I feel I get the best of both worlds. I'm sure there are better deals, better packages out there but if I spend all this time mucking around i'll miss everything that's going around above me!

In the end, you'll buy another scope, another mount, another camera. But in the beginning you've gotta start somewhere.

Happy puchasing!

[bmitchell82]

epistle,

if i where you i would rethink your idea if you havn't already laid out the $$$. A eq6 will not control a 12" for anything other than visual. they are just far to big to do the job properly unless the night is completely windless to run a scope of that size your looking a Losmandy titan as a minimum (yes that is a 8k or so mount).

This age old question comes up time and time again, with some people trying to get everything for half the cost. Eventually you get either frustrated to the point of selling everything and getting out of it, or selling everything you purchased and spending double what you initially spent.

If you are going to be a pure visual man. get a massive dobsonian slip a argo navis and for high power views put a servo cat on it. tracking, aperture, push to. you'll never look back.

If you are going to be a photography man on a budget, get a 8" and slip it up on a eq6 minimum. You can still do a lot of visual work with this setup. you just have to be a little bit nimble or get yourself some rotatable rings. but this setup will allow you to start expanding into astrophotography.

If you have a bit of a budget to work with look at Losmandy G11 or takahashi em200 series of mount and put your 8" on it. far better tracking and the scope will do you untill you want to upgrade your optics in a few years time and at that youll have a lovely 8" dob to roam around while your photography setup is flogging out images for you.

the mount in AP is and i cannot stress this enough the most important piece of kit you will ever purchase... if you cant hold a star in the same spot you might as well swing your telescope from a piece of rope slung around the branch of a tree. the outcome will be about the same.

As it is my 10" is the absolute boarder of the eq6's capacity. i have tuned it to within a wisker of death, upgraded just about everything i can upgrade to the point that its only the head that i bother using most of the time as even the tripod is very flimsy (i often use a Meade 12" LX200R HD field tripod) when your slipping 25kgs+ of load and the 25kg of counter weight.

hope that helps

Brendan

[RobF]

+1 what B said Epistle

The 12" is way into the red (and over) for an EQ6 for astrophotography + its so heavy the metal tube can't reliably hold the light path and focuser orientation without significant flexure. Clive (Alchemy) has commented on the woes he encountered with this type of configuration in other threads here if you search.

10" risky, 8" much more manageable for setting up and learning. The scope you can handle is the one you'll be setting up and pulling down all hours of the night too remember (rather than leaving in the cupboard 'cause its all too hard.....)

[epistle]

...and just when you think you've decided excellent advice comes forth and you change your mind. ARGH! What a headache!

I have to conclude that this frustration is the right track because the knowledge and information forthcoming is gold.

The only reason I don't currently own below scope guys is a delay in stock.

THANK you! Seriously.

[Riv39]

Wow what a great thread and right on the money for what I am looking at for my first scope i.e. 8'' reflector with a goto mount (I was toying with 6" but have chsnged my mind).

Can somone explain the difference between the Skywatcher Black Diamond BD-N200 and the SW-600 (200 x 1000P) why is the SW more expensive than the BD?

I also note that there are no detailed specs available on the Skywatcher web site for the SW-600.

[RobF]

I think the Black Diamond is the latest colour scheme, but scope specs are identical Chris. I always suggest to people they consider posting a "Wanted" advert here on IIS in the Classifieds. You just never know when someone might be looking to upgrade, giving you typically 30-40% off retails prices.

p.s. not looking to offload anything BTW...:lol:

[RobF]

Just a warning for people too - backfocus on newts can be problematic. Its rare for people to be able to use their 2" adaptor for photography on these "out of the box".

See also here and related threads......
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65859

There's multiple options to sort this out, but people need to be aware of this stuff before buying one....

[Riv39]

Thanks for highlighting this issue Rob, I did plan to do photography in the future and will keep this in mind. I still feel the scope represents good value for money from what I am reading. I also get what you suggest about the "wanted" thread although it's always nice to have something new out of the box albeit at the "new" price.

[RobF]

Now is certainly a good time to be shopping Chris with the dollar where it is too! Let us all know if do invest in something.....:)

All the best, R