Nub equipment help!

[hellaflush]

Heya All!

I have browsed these forums over the years from time to time and ever since I was a child spent several hours a week using binoculars to look into the night sky in Adelaide...

It is my birthday next week and the Mrs is wanting to finally push me to get a telescope (with her $$$ :lol: ).

She has done some research and suggested the 130EQ at this stage however she doesn't want to go purchasing something which is going to be a waste of money, space and possibly hinder my amazement with the universe!

Budget is up to $500 at the moment maximum...

Planets are well and nice (I know as of late we have had good viewings of Jupiter/Mars due to my iPad apps I have) but what will really bring tears to my eyes would be other galaxies and nebulae...

How much can I really see with this kind of budget?

If my experience is what I am hoping for - an upgrade would definitely be due within 6 months breaking easily into the 4 digit realm... practicality means nothing to me if it benefits my viewing... Astrophotography will also come once I get into the swing of things (I hope my Nikon D80 will suffice?)

Thanks in advance for any help! :hi:

[Esseth]

Several things in your post point squarely to an 8" Dobsonain imo. They are quite a bit bigger than an 130eq, which viewing more DSO's and much better bang for buck if practicality is no barrier.

Further 6 months with a Dob will nut out exactly what you need moving forward in the hobby.

[hellaflush]

Esseth,

That is the other option the Mrs had mentioned was an 8" dob...

The other thing I am having difficulty finding are some peoples albums/sites with pictures of what can be viewed through either the 130EQ or an 8" Dob...

If anyone has a decent amount of images they have captured or images similar to what can be viewed through my budget - it would be greatly appreciated!

The units which we have looked at so far...

http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-sw135-reflector-telescope.html
http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatcher-8-dobsonian-telescope.html
http://www.ozscopes.com.au/reflector-telescope-celestron-astromaster-130eq-motor-drive.html

[Esseth]

I'd check out the article Astrophotography with a Dob (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-201-0-0-1-0.html) to show you what you might be seeing.

The reason most people will point to the dob is, bigger meaning more light and able to see more, value, better as a first scope and better for viewing.

I would avoid going for one of the scopes on an eq mount for now as if you do look at going further down the road, the mount is something that you will want to spend at least 50% of your budget on.

I am in the process of saving for a Heq5pro as i am going down the road you might be on in a few months lol

[M54]

Hi hellaflush,

Welcome to IIS.:welcome:

I have a 130mm equatorial scope and was finding it so difficult to manouver in the dark (without goto) that I built a new base for it and turned it into a dob. Works a treat now.:D

If I had $500 to spend on a scope I'd get the 8inch dob. without question. You'll see a whole lot more than with the 130mm. I've had an 8inch on loan from the local astro club and was able to carry it and move it around quite easily.

There is a website that shows exactly what you can see through various sized telescopes but I'll have to do a search, because I've forgotten its name. Someone else here might remember.....Suzy are you there???:)

Astrophotography is a whole other ball game so I'll leave that to the experts, but you'll definately need an equatorial mount for that.

Hope this helps, and I'll get back to you about that website, if no one else chips in with it.

Molly.

[hellaflush]

Thanks for the prompt reply Molly/Alan!

What kind if a difference am i going to see between a 6" and 8" Dob?

With keeping a 6-12 month upgrade in mind im wondering if the 8" is worth that much more...

Also very keen Molly to see what kind of Nebulae and Clusters through a Dob :D

[astro744]

An 8" will show images nearly twice as bright to that of a 6" (64/36=1.78). I also recommend either an 8" Dob or if money is an issue, a 6" Dob. Either telescope will give you a lifetime of viewing pleasure.

Note views of nebulae will be nothing like the photos. You will see no red or blue colour as the light is too dim. Even the Great Orion nebula (one of the brightest) show a whispy white/grey sometime subtle green visually but it is a most impressive sight.

Forget about astrophotography with a Dob other than snap shots or video of the Moon. You need a tracking platform and the ability to guide to do astrophotography. If you want to do astrophotography get an ED80 and HEQ5 mount later. You will also need a guidscope and autoguiding CCD; an ST80 is light and can mount on top of the ED80. Unfortunately the $$$ are a lot more for even the most basic astrophoto package. The ED80 can also be used visually and the images are very good on planets, and the Moon. Nebulae are just a little dimmer, nearly 1/4 to that of a 6" (10/36).

[Liz]

Hi Adam :hi:

Yes, with all the others, the 8" Dob for sure - apart from the much better views, it is easier to use, and less frustrating than the EQ mount.

Better views = bigger mirror.

8" (200mm) compared to 103mm!! Though 8" may be out of your price range ... no, they are about the $500.

http://www.ozscopes.com.au/dobsonian-telescope-saxon-8inch.html

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm

[Suzy]

:)

I couldn't have said the above any better myself in a nutshell.
:welcome: Hi and welcome Adam.
As Alan said, 6 months is a good time frame - it took me exactly that to go from a 6" to a 10".

If you want galaxies and nebulas to bring tears to your eyes, then go for the largest apperture you can handle and afford. The bigger the mirror, the more light it gathers, which equals more detail. If you want some serious deep sky viewing, start with anything 6" and over. Just make sure that the dob and base will fit in your car.

Most of us upgrade our scopes when we know exactly what we want out of them, so don't expect to get it right the first time. Use this time to learn and see where your enthusiasm leads you. Dobs are very popular for beginners in particular as there is no setting up, and you are forced to learn the sky manually (which is a great thing). Unless you get an Argo Narvis down the track to add to it (push to guidance).




Here you are Molly :) http://www.telescope-simulator.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=57
Adam this is the link that Molly was asking me about.

By the way, you have a birthday coming up soon - so happy birthday Adam and what a great way to celebrate, by exploring the Universe.
Tell us what you end up getting.

Kind regards,
Suzy.

[hellaflush]

Hey Liz and Suzy,

Thank you for the feedback.

Well the Mrs ordered a 8" Saxon Dob from ozscopes yesterday and should be here Thursday or Friday.

She has also booked in a private viewing session at the Stockport Observatory on Saturday night for 2 hours... a fun weekend to come I think!

I will let you all know how I go :)

Thanks again!!!!

[bmitchell82]

Hey suzie, i just had a fiddle around on that site, it seems to me that its pretty skew if. Why do i say this? because apparently my 10" scope with a 20mm ep will show Jupiter up no bigger than a ball point pen point. and that a 1200mm by 254 mirror is F5 which it isn't . Be wary of sites like this as they don't really give a true representation and its only somebody's view point/programming that your relying on.

Best way is to get out and look with your own eyes!

Brendan:thumbsup:

[hellaflush]

Just thought id let you guys know...

My 8" Saxon Dob arrived today :D

Put it together... checked the collimation and then waited for a break in the clouds in my backyard tonight...

Due to a thick cloud cover approaching - time was limited... got to have a decent look at the moon and jupiter and 3 of its moons :eyepop:

Tried to look at one of the brighter stars in the sky however cloud cover obstructed my view by the time i located it...

One thing i noticed - out of the 2x eyepices which came with the telescope... the 10mm magnifies everything by a long shot!

Just did a bit of homework and have now understood the formula of telescope focal length / eyepiece focal length = magnification.

So going by that a 2.5mm eyepiece will then once again give me further magnification? are there any drawbacks?

Also I have noticed that eyepieces have different viewing sizes where you actually look through... is there some kind of magnification impact to this?

Any aid in assisting boosting the power of my 8" Dob would be greatly appreciated!

Of course - are the super expensive eyepieces really that much better? Would I need a full set or am I mainly going to be going for just 1 single good short focal length eyepiece?

[hellaflush]

Anyone?

Also would a barlow (2x or 3x) be beneficial for my 8" dob? I understand that a combination between eyepieces and barlow lense may actually have a negative impact as I may go beyond what the current mirror optics can project...

[mill]

a 2" barlow would be a good investment and will effectively double your eyepiece collection.
The 8" dob can later be fitted to an HEQ5 or a EQ6.

[The Mekon]

Sorry to disagree with the previous post. A barlow is a waste of money when you start out, unless they have only supplied you with one 32mm eyepiece. Even then, best to buy a couple of good Plossl eyepieces, or a Telrad.

[M54]

A Telrad is a very good thing to have.
It helps you locate things easily, which can be quite an issue when you're starting out. (And even down the track a bit:P)

[hellaflush]

The unit came with a 25mm and 10mm Plossl pair of eyepieces...

With the 10mm jupiter was of a decent size (I know that I am at the tail end of a decent viewing of jupiter) however if I am seeing jupiter at only a very reasonable level of detail (I could make out its main ring plus another 2 or so) I am under the impression that a barlow or combination of barlow + a 4 or 6mm lense may aid my deep sky viewing.

I may be wrong as I am yet to locate any nebulae or anything deep space as yet... thus looking for opinions - is my existing unit without a barlow and just with the 25mm and 10mm eyepiece sufficient for what I want to really see?

[that_guy]

if your gonna be searching for large nebulae or clusters... dont go for barlows instead go for wide field eyepieces. Suzy has some experience with these :D:D

[hellaflush]

I will be looking at everything for now as I am new... but my interest is to see some nebulae most definitely... so I guess a barlow wouldn't go astray from my research...

If the current buyer doesn't grab this, I am 2nd in line - http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=65925

Opinions? It has the barlow and a wide assortment of good Plossl eyepieces...

I have done some reading on the Telrad and am currently in search for one now (looks like I just missed out on one in the FS section).

It has proven hard to find some good sites/articles explaining the differences with eyepieces (wide lense/normal lense - whats good for viewing what)

Obviously if i want a full shot of the moon - a 10mm has too much magnification for this but I just assume for most other things which will be further away and smaller - the smaller the diameter the better?

[hellaflush]

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/NEW-TELRAD-TELESCOPE-Finder-Sight-LED-Reflex-Scope-/220660599425?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360658a81#ht_500wt_1154

Cheaper in the states :D

Ordered!

[hellaflush]

Ahh eBay how i <3 thee....

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Celestron-94303-Eyepiece-and-Filter-Kit-1-25-NEW-/130358447990?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e59f80f76#ht_1726wt_1137

Once again cheaper in the states :)

The question is... is this the right kinda kit for me?

[Liz]

Hey Adam, congrats on the scope!!!! hopefully it will last you awhile before you get aperture fever and want a 10" .... like I did. ;)

Its probably a good idea to stick with your 10mm and 25mm ..... they are good EPS. Do some research, and look out for a cuple more down the track. The 10mm will give you some mag. 2.5mm will be too much mag, but a 5-6mm down the trsck will be good. The kit from US will prob cost a fortune to post, but if not, then looks a good kit in a nifty case.

The telrads are great, and is what I used on my 8" while I had it. The only problem with them is that you have to stick them on, so makes a mess of your scope, for when you want to sell it later on??

Many people use barlows, but I didnt for many years, and am still trying to remind myself that I have a nice one in my box of goodies. :rolleyes:

My fav EPs are also widefield ones, as Tony says, Suzy has done bucket loads of research there. ;)

Look at peoples signutures to see what kinda EPS they have, and you will find there are quite a few that are widely used, thus pretty good and popular.

Enjoy ....... and clear skies!!! :)

[Benno85]

Totally up to you mate, it's down to personal preferance really. Are you comfortable with basic navigation around the sky, or do you get Rigel confused with Regulus? ;)

I'm not much more than a beginner myself, but for me I found it much more valuable to learn to find my way around with a Telrad or similar, knowing that I would never forget how to do it (kind of like riding a bike) and that that knowledge would be priceless. Later on when I upgrade to an equatorial mount I'll get one with go to capability as my main aim will be imaging (finding a target and sticking with it for the night).

Just my thoughts :D

Ben

[hellaflush]

Heya Liz - thanks for the kind words :)

I got a little wrapped up last nite... looked at my iPad and realized it was 4am + condensation on the scope so thought I should call it a night...

Last night I was mainly hanging around the Orion constellation and spotted M42/M43... just a faint grey smudge with 4 distinct bright stars...

I have confirmation that my Telrad was shipped today and should be here next week from the states :)

The celestron kit has a good combination of filters, barlow and lenses... although no sites specify if they are wide or not? The postage from the states for that kit is 50 AUD so it still comes out about 40 cheaper than the 2nd hand kit for sale on these forums and also local sites/ebay sellers which want 280+ shipping (I will be saving a good 100+ here).

I guess my main question is what benefit do "wide" eyepieces that everyone is recommending have? How can you tell the difference when buying online between a wide and "normal" eyepiece? Do wide eyepieces hinder on clarity for a wider FOV?

Sorry for all the questions guys... ive got books and am googling my heart out however I really cannot find a clear answer on this topic...

[Liz]

Its a bit tricky as to whether you get the Celestron set - $50 postage is pretty good, so maybe worth it, then you have a good set in a case. Probably a good idea if you can afford it. :)

Down the track though, you may find you only use 2-3 EPs, your favourites.

Widefield EPS are great, as you peer through the EP, and there is a large area to see, and your eyes just travel round and round, wow!!

The Hyperions are good EPs, and have 68' FOV.
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm

Naglers can have 82'
https://www.bintelshop.com.au/HTML/TVNaglers.html


Many others
http://www.frontieroptics.com.au/Wide%20field%20eyepieces.html

Other EPs have a smaller FOV, though these can be sharper, but many sit about the 60' give or take.

The almighty Ethos has 100', and most can only dream about those, as they are about ~ $600.

Am sure others will have their favourite widefields too. :)

[hellaflush]

Ahh Liz you're so quick to come back and help :)

So from my understanding then there isn't a great if not very noticeable reduction in clarity by going to a wider FOV EP?

The celestron kit has 55' FOV across all of the EP's apart from the 32mm which has 44' FOV.

Only having the 25mm and 10mm which have a 52' FOV... I'm unsure if purchasing individual EP's with only a slightly better FOV is going to be a wise decision... at least with this kit, I have an opportunity to try all the different EP's down to a 4mm which still has a 55' FOV...

Also it has the 2x barlow and filter set...

Any last words on celestron EP quality and this overall package before I click buy? :D

http://www.celestron.com/c3/product.php?ProdID=271

[Liz]

Noone else has hopped in yet.

Re the Celestron set - filters and barlow, and EPs, its pretty good. ;) I havent looked through Celestron EPs, but would think they would be quite good quality. Why not, do it!! If you keep them in good condition, it will be very sellable waaay down the track as a set. :)

[hellaflush]

Purchased :hi:

Now hopefully i get a break in the clouds again tonight and I can try to work out if it was M42 or M43 I saw last night...

[Suzy]

Hi Adam,
Don't buy yet - I haven't posted!!!

Apologies for not answering on this thread earlier. I would prefer you to do a bit more research first after I post. If I answered here tonight, are you able to press "click" tomorrow instead?

Kind regards,
Suzy.

Edit: Sorry I can't post now, but the reason is that I will be busy for the next few hours.

[torana68]

which TV show is it?

[hellaflush]

Must be a long show :P

I am assuming something with Mr Travolta...

[Rob_K]

Congratulations Adam, the 8" dob will serve you well! I use Celestron eyepieces (X-Cel with 55 deg AFOV) and they give great views. I also have a 40mm Celestron eyepiece that gives cracker widefield views. But there's also nothing wrong with basic (= cheap) Plossl eyepieces.

Don't get too carried away with magnification though, because as you zoom up in magnification you lose light grasp. I find it's not so much the size of something your viewing but the quality of the view that really matters. You'll find a 25mm eyepiece will give you great views, but by all means use a 10mm for the brighter deep sky objects. For planets, you can zoom up all you like but unless the 'seeing' (atmospheric turbulence) is good you'll just end up with unfocusable blobs. Lower powers will suit nights of fair-bad seeing. Nights of excellent seeing are rare and precious, but when they occur.... WOW!

I see you're from Brisbane - light pollution can severely degrade views, so if you're in the burbs then a few trips out into the hinterland might be a good idea. Dark skies are everything! And the 8" is a good portable size too.

Good luck with it all!

Cheers -

[Suzy]

Hi Adam :welcome:

Lots of questions, not sure where to start :lol:

The 10 & 25mm eyepieces that came with your scope will actually be the focal lengths you will use the most. Anything under 5mm will depend on the seeing conditions (eg jupiter will look blurry). I found 7mm to be the sweet spot on planets. Within 6mths you will come to understand those clouds very well. This link covers are lot of basics you should know starting out, and in particular towards the bottom the page, atmospheric conditions are explained. http://www.skyandtelescope.com/howto/visualobserving/

The Celestron kit does look good value. You will rarely use the colour filters (the blue will prob. be the most used). I got told they work best when planets are 60 deg up. Mars polar ice cap was visible thanks to the blue. They have their place in the kit even if used rarely. A nebula filter such as a UHC is a great all rounder. They make nebulas really pop out. Here is a link on nebula filters http://pages.sbcglobal.net/raycash/filters.htm Here is a link on coloured filters. http://sciastro.net/members/portia.php/2009/01/31/g-the-use-of-filters Same with a barlow - I don't use it that often, but I'll reach for it on the odd times. By choice, I prefer less glass. The quality will be affected a tad with a barlow, because you are trying to transmit light through more glass. Hubby doesn't like the quality, where as it doesn't worry me too much. It's a trade off by getting the most value out of your eps.

Here is a link pretty much explaining just about everything you need to know about eps http://www.optcorp.com/pdf/TeleVue/An Eyepiece Primer.pdf (http://www.optcorp.com/pdf/TeleVue/An%20Eyepiece%20Primer.pdf)
Here is a link to a thread of mine (it will give you a good idea of the complexities involved with eyepieces/fov issues in eps with dob users). A very educational thread. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=59484&highlight=5mm+%24200

I have a Celestron ep, and it is of better quality than the ones that came with the scope. Wide field eps are a better choice for dob users in that you don't have to work the scope so hard in a small fov of 50deg. Also for example, I can view the whole Omega Centauri glob in my fov of 70deg at 10mm. You won't be able to do that with your 10mm ep. You will with your 25mm (but at lower mag). Don't worry, it will still look amazing. I can also use this ep to find things with, it's near impossible with 50deg fov.

Putting a 4mm (if seeing is good) on a dob can be frustrating as the planet only has to move a little before you have to nudge at the scope again (often losing it in the process and having to re-find). I find it difficult to observe a planet fully when I spend more time working the dob. You will get good at working the dob by the way. Wide fields therefore allow the planet to stay in the ep a lot longer. They also cost a lot more money because it take more glass and more groups to give you this view with maximum contrast and light transmission. A good widefield (Orion Stratus and Baader Hyperion, Meade, etc will cost between $200-$380. A premium will cost you around $260 for Panoptics at 19mm (Liz's favourite) up to $700. Second hand Pentax's & Televue Naglers generally sell around $350 ($500-700 new) with Vixen LVW's at around $250 ($330 new). Not many people will part with their Pentax's and Televue's. These eps are premium for a reason - they deliver the best contrast and sharpness across fov. Being widefield, this is more complicated to achieve, thereby costly. They knock a standard ep right out of the park! Once you have one in your possession, you will never go backwards, trust me. Pays to do your research on this eps, so that when they do become available on the second hand market, you will be ready to pounce straight away on what you want. That is how I've gotten mine. Patience.

Regarding viewing M42 (Orion). Use the 25mm. The 10mm won't do it justice as it will bring it up too close using too much of the fov in your ep. Nebs need a bit of distance to show up the contrast (wide field eps here again will give greater fov, so high mag is not an issue as you will see plenty of black sky surrounding the nebula). It's important that you get your eyes dark adapted for 15 -30(better) minutes before viewing nebulas. If you have to go inside, just put a patch over your observing eye or your hand. So as not to strain the unobserving eye, keep it open with your finger over the closed lid (or a patch). Within time, you will see a lot more detail. Your eyes will need to learn how to see the detail initially. The more you observe, the better at seeing your eyes will get. If you buy an observers book, this will help you look for details too as the book explains what to go looking for. A great observing book is Stephen O'Meara's "Messier Objects", I highly recommend it. It sells here i think for around $60-$70 dollars, but here you can get it for only $44 (free shipping) from the UK. I buy lots of books from here (so does Liz), there service is tops. http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780521553322/Deep-Sky-Companions-The-Messier-Objects

I agree 100% with what Ben said about learning the skies. Take it slow- you will learn quicker and won't seem so confusing. I find studying one or two constellations fairly well at a time helpful to me. The sky will always be there. And it is highly rewarding knowing your way around the skies. Soon the stars will feel like old friends when they return upon changing seasons.

Here is a link that will help you understanding what magnifications your scope can handle. Read beginner tips first, and then it will be a bit further down. http://www.seqas.org/
Adam, please remember, it isn't all about magnification. So don't get excited about using that 2.5mm ep that Liz was talking to you about. At the end of the day, it comes down to the size of your mirror (the larger the mirror - the more light - the more detail you will get). With an 8" scope you'll have a whole lot of fun.

Plan your observing sessions - this will make your viewing time a whole lot more enjoyable and rewarding. Know what you want to see, get maps ready, scribble notes what they are you are seeing, get a comfy chair (important), a red light torch and you're on your way. My most frustrating nights are when I don't have a session planned. Organisation really does help. And also you feel like you have achieved things when you get those targets. Some nights when things are hard to find or things don't go to plan, I just aim my scope at a couple of easy favourites, and that keeps me happy and then go inside. I don't feel like a complete failure then! Main thing is, is patience. Lots of patience. If you don't have it (I didn't), you will end up having it (I did).

All the best Adam, have great fun!

Kind regards,
Suzy.

[Suzy]

:poke: Cheeky guys! :lol:
Had next doors cats to look after, dinner to cook & eat, my animals to feed, tv programme to watch (ok!) :ashamed: (but it wasn't neighbours marathon this time), and this post which took forever. :P

[Suzy]

Too much typing, :bashcomp: My hands are numb I don't feel them anymore:face:
I just noticed Rob's post, why can't I talk less and say everything short like he just did :mad2:

[hellaflush]

Suzy thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of my questions.

I have gone through all of your reference material and your entire post and it certainly contains a wealth of valuable information!

Due to a limited budget at this very moment I have chosen to stick with the Celestron kit to give myself an idea of what I can see with the 55' FOV with this kit...

As Lizy said, they most definitely are able to be sold to someonelse later on down the track (maybe sooner than later :P) and I shouldn't really notice much of a difference in the wallet... once that is done I can then buy a good EP after I know what specifically suits my needs...

I am holding off on going out of my backyard to a good site to view until my Telrad and Celestron EP kit get here (hopefully late next week from the states) to really get a good hold of what can be seen in comparison to my Saxon EP's that came with the scope and the Celestron EP's...

I would be out tonight as its a perfect clear night in Adelaide however the Moon is pretty much at its brightest which isn't good for DSO viewing... so I have invested tonight into research :)

I really am hanging to see Andromeda and M78... theyre on my hitlist after I have another good look at M42/M43

[Suzy]

You're welcome Adam, glad to help.

Andromeda? You and I both! :prey:

[hellaflush]

I can catch it as it reaches its peak around 1130 at night here in Adelaide... only problem is I am unsure if my fence will be obstructing the view as its so low... might be one for when i goto the Hills next week for a clearing :)

[Liz]

Head up north to Townsville Adam .... I will show it to you easily from my front yard. ;) A magnificent sight!!

[hellaflush]

http://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=adelaide%20to%20townsville&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

Cya Saturday morning Liz ;)

[Liz]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I get home from work 0800 hrs, dont be late now. ;)