September Obs. Challenge- with a twist

[mental4astro]

Hi all,

For this month's "challenge", how about suggesting fewer targets, but asking participants to do a sketch or two.

What I love about this hobby is the variety of scopes in use, and the different images they provide. So, there is no right or wrong image, take, or observation.

And, the best part about attempting a sketch is not the 'quality' of the drawing, as it is only an interpretation, but I feel it enhances our powers of observation.

To that end, I will make at least two sketches of the same object using two different scopes, a 6" reflector and a 17.5" reflector.

My object suggestions range for small to large scopes to provide a 'push to the limit':

Bright target: M8, the Lagoon Nebula, in Scorpio. A lovely bright open cluster & bright nebula target. It is also known as the Hourglass nebula due to the striking dark lane the separates the two lobes of the nebula.

Medium target: M57, the Ring Nebula, in Lyra. One of the most spectacular things I've seen in the whole sky. One of the largest planetary nebulae in the sky, with its striking doughnut shape.

Dim target: NGC 1365, in Fornax. The big barred spiral galaxy in the Fornax Cluster. One of the few barred galaxies to visually have its bar observable, though the bar is better seen in larger instruments.

There is nothing to stop anyone targeting any of these objects, only yourself. Have a shot, you might be surprised.

Sketching tips:

Illumination- use a red light to do your drawing with. Red cellophane, 3 or 4 layers, over a torch is good.

Paper- better quality A4 paper is best as it has a much finer texture for really fine detail. Any of the Aussie made "Reflex" range is superb. Do the sketch on white paper as it easier to see the markings when using a graphite pencil.

Pencil- for simplicity I recommend a sharp B2 pencil, and a rubber. This grade of pencil is soft enough for easier to see markings, but hard enough to cope with variation in applied pressure.

Final transfer- As with the white paper, try to get a fine grade black paper. For the stars, you can use a needle to control the size of stars with a white paint, like the one in your kid's paint collection. Oh, and raid their coloured pencils for a white pencil- perfect for faint, soft nebula/galaxy detail.

I've uploaded a couple of mine. The first is of M8 through my 5" done a few years ago, the second is of the Antennae galaxy with my 17.5" done last month. The last is a 'test' sketch while I figured out how to handle the materials- experiment.

[michaellxv]

Don't forget there is the observing log in the resource section to help you with your sketch and other notes.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/download.php?8cc5c730c4c6652ce403b1 1fe2e4a221 (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/download.php?8cc5c730c4c6652ce403b1 1fe2e4a221)

The challenge might be to find some clear skies this month.

[mental4astro]

Nice one Michael :thumbsup:.

Any further September object sketch suggestions, bright, medium and dim targets? Even really dim?

How about a really dim one, NGC 2573 in Octans, lifting an object from last month's, and visible all year from southern latitudes.

Mental.

[Paddy]

I think your idea of fewer targets and sketching is a great one. And your point about enhancing powers of observation is spot on.

And thanks for keeping the monthly challenge idea going. I think it's really worthwhile for finding things that I haven't looked at before and revisiting some that I have to find more detail. I suspect a lot of people are doing this. It would be great if people can post some of their sketches, if ever the clouds clear.

[Rob_K]

Conditions were OK early on so I gave it a go! Attached is my sketch of Ring Nebula at 112x (4.5" reflector, 8mm EP). Very low at my place, but got it in the north at about the highest it gets, 20 degrees. Transparency was fair at that altitude, but seeing was pretty ordinary.

Had a look at the Lagoon Nebula at 47x & 112x (21mm & 8mm EPs). Preferred the former view, with the nebula & cluster in more context. The included cluster NGC 6530 looks so much brighter & denser at low powers. At 112x the dark lane was better defined, and I could make some sense of the tiny Hourglass Nebula. Close to zenith, sky was very good there!

But doubt if I'll get to see NGC 1365 with light cloud coming in. Did go to the Grus Quartet - nice, all four galaxies fairly easily visible, even NGC 7590. Great view, all comfortably in the FOV at 47x. Then toured some of the "Biggie" globular clusters including OC (drool), 47 Tuc (2nd best ;) ), M13 (sad), M22 (bright but no resolution), M4 (strong 'Cat's Eye' bar showing; could fit M4 & NGC 6144 in same field - chalk & cheese!). Also saw M27 Dumbbell nebula - nice view at 47x, bright, good hints of the 'dumbbell' shape. Earlier, had seen the rapidly fading comet, 2P Encke. Right on the very limit of my vision, a tiny extremely-faint dull patch that could barely be held in averted vision.

Just great to have some sky in such a poor winter (er Spring)! :D Look forward to some sketches coming in! :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[mental4astro]

Beautiful stuff, Rob.

Saw an opportunity this evening at 8:30, pulled out my 8" scope, then, dew. Lots of it. No wind and humid, and cool. I should have known, when looking at Jupiter, the tell tale sign of an extended disk surrounding the planet. Ended session after less than an hour, :sadeyes:, very wet.

I hope the weekend is better.

[Rob_K]

Thanks Alex, raining now! :mad2: :P Hope you get a better run soon! :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[pgc hunter]

Nice sketch Rob! Fist one I've seen from you. You must do more, you've clearly got the skills mate, - assuming it's not Melbournecast ofcourse. ;)

[Suzy]

Alex what a fabulous idea to include sketches! :painting: I'm excited!:jump::jump2:

These last few ob. challenges have been so much fun for me. :D Please keep them coming. I'm enjoying the variety (imaging targets last time, sketches this time). I like your selection so far of M8 & M57. I saw M57 for the first time :scared2: about a month ago and I couldn't believe what I was seeing could be that good compared to pics! Am anxious to re-visit this again and attempt (*cough*) a shaky sketch. :confuse3:

Thank you so much for posting those tips on sketching - I want to learn and have been eager to get some tips as I'm clueless.
Alex & Rob- I love your sketches - you should post them to us more often. Sketches give a nice balance to the many astro pics we see here. ;)

Also, Ditto for everything Patrick said.

[Paddy]

Great sketch, Rob. Looking forward to more.

[mental4astro]

Thanks for the encouragement, folks. It makes it worthwhile.

The thing with these selected targets is that, though M8 & M 57 are relatively bright, the bigger your scope, the more fine detail you can see.

So, if you've got a "big'un", gi' me some boks & filaments! :evil::evil::evil2:

[Suzy]

Yes, size does matter. I compensate by using a great imagination. :wink2: :D

[M54]

Thanks for those suggestions Alex.
I'll give them a go in my 5". The Lagoon is faint and fuzzy in my scope but I haven't looked at the other two.
NGC 1365 is Mag. 9.5 so will just be at the edge of my scopes capacity from what I've experienced. Hope I can find it.
Got a local star party this weekend, so if the weather comes to the party too:rolleyes: I'll be able to try them.
I use lots of imagination too Suzy. When it fails me I go looking round the field for a look through someone elses bigger scope.:P

[smurf]

I took my scope out to the UNENTAS meeting last night, and we were very lucky in that we had a brilliantly clear sky (considering that it was quite cloudy with a bit of rain around today)!

I managed to find the Ring Nebula last night and will agree that it is spectacular, with the ring shape very easy to make out in my 12" dob.

I will definitely consider having a go at some sketches if I get a chance at some clear skies over the next few weeks. :)
I just hope that I can find all of the required bits and pieces at a standard newsagent.

[mental4astro]

One suggestion that might help with sketching, those little clip-on book lights are great to attach to your clipboard to illuminate the paper. You can paint the bulb red and/or wrap the red cellophane over the lamp.

I found my book light at a $2 shop. Cost me less than $5. Aldi had the same one a couple of weeks ago for less than $3. No-more stuffing around with a hand held torch!

[orestis]

Thanks for the thread Alex great targets:thumbsup:

I managed to complete a sketch of m57 yesterday (attached)

You can see the full obs report in the obs report forum.

regars orestis:thumbsup:

[Suzy]

Orestis you do amazing sketches!

[Suzy]

I wanted to do a practice run with sketching M-57 (The Ring Neb), so I asked my daughter for some tips as she is good with art (don't know why I didn't think to ask her before) and she has given some really good tips...

* She demonstrated that an HB pencil is better than a 2B pencil in that it smudges. The 2B wouldn't smudge. Your thoughts Alex?

* Draw the ring starting from the outside and work towards the inside to produce a better effect for smudging. Wet your finger slightly and smudge. Wow.

* She also said with using white paint, that you can smudge it for shading by adding some water.

* You can do stars with white paint using a fine tip paint brush (I had a go and is quite effective.

And a Question.. :question:
From what I understand, you do the sketches on white paper, and then you use black paper to do the file transfer. I don't understand how you get the whites of the stars on the black paper - do you re-do the stars with paint?

By the way, I don't know how people sketch in winter (I can barely feel my fingers, let alone hold a pencil! Sketching for me is purely a warmer weather sport.

[mental4astro]

Hi Susy,

I guess I'll answer each in turn:

* The choice of pencil is a practical one. I don't smudge my drawings as I then run the risk of smudging the star dots, notes, corrections, etc. I rather control the pressure on the pencil. Even an eraser rarely breathes the night air, errors simply have a line crossing it- just my standardised note making. A 2B pencil should smudge much more easierly than an HB, it is softer. A 2H is another matter. Where I start a drawing depends on the object- sometimes I mark the prominent star patterns first, other times the boundaries of the object, like that of M57.

* With my black paper reproductions, I too use white paint, and an old compass (from an old kids geometry set) to do the dots with. This gives me the dot size control I'm after. Next to me is a tissue & little pot with water to clean the point. If I need to do a correction to the white, I use a fine black felt tip pen.

* The reason I do my in-the-field drawings on white paper is it is easier to see the graphite on the white paper (for me anyway). It is also easier to make fine detailed notes with a fine graphite pencil. This includes graduation notes for the varying nebulosity intensities. My in-the-field sketches tend to be messy affairs, riddled with notes, 'mistakes', and saliva, :shrug:.

* In winter I use leather driving gloves. I've found these to be insulative enough for my purposes, & thin enough for me to control the pencil.

If you want to smudge on black paper for the 'nebula' effect, I wouldn't suggest wetting the paper- it will warp. Unless you have gone to the extent of using water colour paper & prestretched it, ordinary paper will warp when you wet it. Instead, use a 'water colour pencil', sharpen it, and with a cotton bud, use the shavings to create the smudge effect. It is also less clumsy than one's finger. These 'water colour pencils' are less waxy in texture. You can get individual coloured pencils from art supply stores.

If I'm unsure of the execution of a desired effect, I still practice a series of trials on another sheet of black paper. Even now I still trail effects, as the materials at hand can change, and the 'touch' might need a little tweeking.

[Suzy]

:lol::lol: Mine will be riddled with dried patches of Chardonnay spills (or a Corona if I find this sketching thing to be thirsty, hard work). I know, I know, alcohol affects vision, but out there on my own, late at night, it is the only friend I have (and an amazingly comforting friend at that). :lol:

Thank you Alex for taking the time out to give those great tips. :thanx:

I really do hope many of us will be putting up sketches for this month's challenge. Doesn't matter if it's good or bad - where having fun, and learning at the same time! :D

[michaellxv]

I use my bike gloves - no fingers so I can hold the pencil.

I draw black on white paper. Scan it. Then invert it to get the white on black image.

I find the pencil will smudge ok with just your dry finger. Draw less than you want as the smudge will be bigger.

[pgc hunter]

Yep I smudge with my finger aswell, although this tends to smear the graphite beyond my intended area.. However, an eraser is handy for removing unwanted smudges without interfering with the quality of the sketch.

[Paddy]

Following a suggestion on this forum, I have found smudge sticks to be very useful for smudging graphite on white. I find they give good control over the smudging compared to using my finger.

[orestis]

When i sketch i sketch on white paper using a 2b pencil and then invert it on the computer to make it seem realistic.

I use a template and depending on the object i will use different pressures of the pencil.For nebulous objects i use a smudge stick,i'll recomend one of these, there great.

Probably one of the biggest problems with sketching for me has been lighting and wouldn't mind having one of those book lights Alex mentioned.

Thanks for putting up this thread Alex there have been many replies and many sketches which i love to see:D.

regards Orestis:thumbsup:

[michaellxv]

Is smudge stick the technical term for these? And where do you get them?

[Paddy]

A smudge stick is like a pencil made of compressed paper, sharpened to a point. They cost me a few shillings at an art supply shop.

[mental4astro]

Cotton bud & shavings - cheaper, ;). Works with graphite & white pencil. Not as fancy or romantic, but it works.

[Suzy]

Hi :hi: welcome there Boozehound :welcome:
How about you submit a sketch for the Sept. Obs challenge? I haven't been able to yet as the weather hasn't been good (will be my first attempt).
I too, wonder how those complicated globs are sketched (must take ages?!)

[Paddy]

Well, having been inspired by Alex's wonderful sketches on black paper, Ive invested in white pastels and black sheets to resketch my graphite on white sketches. Don't think I've quite got the lighting yet to photograph/scan the sketches and the edges on the dark lanes of M8 look too sharp. But it's a start. Any feedback/tips welcomed.

[michaellxv]

Well I don't know that I can offer any tips. But it looks like you have made a great start.

To get some additional inspiration there is also a sketch of the day site. http://www.asod.info/

[Suzy]

Patrick that really is a great start.

Regarding M-8. Well whenever I have a chance to have a go at this one, I know your attempt would definitely beat mine, so even though I'm learning to sketch myself I'll offer views on yours. I agree, the edges look too sharp and there is too much light play. From what I remember (thru my scope), the light was more concentrated around the star cluster. I like your dark lanes and the shape of the neb, and also the use of different coloured shadings.

Regarding M-57. Too much light on the ring, so I would darken it, and the hole from what I remember is much smaller (?). I love the way you do the stars. Again, your sketch will no doubt outdo my first attempt at this one too.
It's easier for me to comment (I know) than having to actually do one of these sketches. So don't take my opinion on it solely. Others are more qualified. But I have learnt something critiquing your work - I get to learn how to do it because I am examining it so much, so your helping me!

Well done, keep them coming. I'm enjoying these sketches. :)

[pgc hunter]

I've also heard of mouldable erasers, apparently they're sort of like a 'putty' and can be manipulated into any shape. Such a thing could work wonders for working in fine detail.

[Paddy]

Just got one of these - looking forward to trying it out.

Micheal and Suzy, thanks for the feedback, much appreciated.

[mental4astro]

Hi Paddy,

One thing that helps me is squinting at the image I'm reproducing on black paper. It helps me gauge the intensity of the 'ruddings' or soft details. If you squint at your picture of M8, you will see how the dark lanes become even more pronounced, and M57 is so much like "through the scope" like.

What this technique does is help you in determining how much to work the white pencil. Starting really soft and then intensifying the white is easier than trying to remove the white, which sometimes can't be done.

I squint all the time with my black repro's.

It is all a thing about practice and trying and using paper and trial and error. No right or wrong.

Reason why I don't smudge, even though it can give a more life-like appearance, is my own drawing background, where my teachers said "if you need to rely on smudging, you are not controlling the pencil- it's controlling you". Now this has become a cross I bare!! :sadeyes: :( :mad2: :lol:

I feel like a recovering alcoholic "go on, just one little rub, it's not cheating" :(

[Paddy]

Very interesting indeed. With squinting, are you softening the focus or reducing the light? Your advice about starting really soft is very helpful also.

[Suzy]

Hi Patrick,
I have just realised that your scope is a 16" and obviously things are brighter. Is M-57 then as bright as your sketch? If so, permission to roll up the tv guide and flick it on my head :lol:.
I hope I wasn't sounding harsh with your sketches Patrick. I think I may have been, in trying to be constructive (not that i really know what I'm talking about yet :rolleyes: )

What is the protocol on submitting sketches? In the astro section they are open for critique. Is that to happen here, or do we post without requiring the feedback. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings (as I thought I may have with Patrick's). :sadeyes:
If it helps any, when I put my M-57 sketch up- I will leave it wide open for 100% cross examination - honest! :D :lol: I'll take it :help:

[Paddy]

Hi Suzy,

Yes, M57 through my scope looks pretty much like my sketch. It is a very impressive item for a big scope and quite like a monochrome version of astro photographs. I took no offence as I figured that you wouldn't have seen it like this through a telescope. I found your thoughts on M 8 interesting and want to have another look to see if it fits. I did find it hard with the pastel to get the brightness in exactly the right spot. I recall noticing in the scope that the brightest part was in the middle of the top wedge nebulosity in the sketch and I felt I did this better in the original graphite sketch, but your comment makes me want to look more deeply. Which to me is what sketching is about and what I value in feedback and why I ask for it. So I was not offended and I appreciate that you took the time to really look and put some comments down. They've helped me learn and look again. So from my point of view, this is exactly what I want in the forum. Please not even gentle self hitting with tv guide, but I look forward to your sketches. And more sketches and comments from others as well.

[Suzy]

:sad::sad:
It's been raining buckets or been overly cloudy for the last 3 weeks and I haven't been able to attempt my sketch yet. :mad2: I think most of us have been affected by bad weather of late haven't we. Can we make this challenge a September/October challenge?

Molly (M54) told me she is going to do a sketch as well, so there is at least two more to come.

Shelley, are you going to join us in a sketch?

For those interested in further sketching tips or adding some tips, Michael has posted a separate thread in the observations category, entitled, "sketching tips". :)

[pgc hunter]

I think I've got a few September sketches in my archive of pgc hunter gold. I'll chuck on a few tomorrow night.

[mental4astro]

Both. It is a tool to assit with contrast control. Even though we are working on black paper, the stuff still has its sheen, and the ambiant light we are working with creates glare. Squinting helps tone down these, gives us another point of view, & as a control method.

Clouds and circumstance have been foiling my attempts to get under the stars. Hopefully, this weekend...

I've started compyling a list of targets for the October Challenge. I hope when it's up that it doesn't stop folks still contributing to this outstanding month's Challenge. I'm stunned at its 'success'.

Orestis submitted a sketch in another thread of his obs. with binoculars. I'm carefully selecting one or two targets tailor made for binos! There are a few objects out there where a scope is just overkill, and just won't do. So, if you only have binos, keep your eyes open for next month's Challenge.

Pgc hunter, I look forward to your archived sketches.

[orestis]

Thanks Alex for continuing the monthly observing challenge and thanks to everyone that has contributed.

This months observing challange was a great success:thumbsup:.
And i look forward to nexts months challenge:D.

regards Orestis:thumbsup:

[glenc]

NGC 2573 is really faint, difficult with a 16" and even faint in a 25" scope.

[pgc hunter]

Thanks Alex, I hope to post them tomorrow :thumbsup:

[pgc hunter]

Here's a few sketches of mine for the September challenge:

[astroron]

Hi Glen and All I have observed NGC 2573 (Polarissima Australis) on a number of occasion's and as stated is difficult in a 16" but not impossible.
It requires the galaxy to be in prime position and no light pollution to pull this one.
There is also an NGC2573b which is in the same ballpark Magnitude wise.

[Suzy]

Sab, those are truly awesome sketches. And you do the full ob log report to boot, wow. Thank you so much for sharing those. Wow again, incredible! :thanx:

[orestis]

Awesome sketching Sab,i agree with everything Suzy has said.Nice going.

regards orestis

[Paddy]

Fantastic sketches, Sab. Beautifully executed and very accurate. I particularly like the one of NGC 246 - great detail. You are a very skilled observer and sketcher. More please.

[pgc hunter]

Thanks Suzy, Orestis and Paddy. I have a binder full of sketches which I was flipping thru when I selected these..and one caught my attention...NGC 3532 done with an 8" dob. Can't believe I actually attempted that!

I have 2 obs reports coming up and a couple of sketches, but with annoying interferences like uni and work , time is hard to find!