This sort of nonsense should be ridiculed to the max

[renormalised]

http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/00current.htm

This sort of pseudoscientific, fantasy driven claptrap should be censored in some way so as to inform people that it's nothing more than nonsensical rubbish with no basis in reality whatsoever. It's this sort of claptrap that is being promoted as "legitimate" science and "alternative" theory that is being soaked up by impressionable minds. It's preying upon people's general ignorance of science and their capacity to be taken in by a seemingly convincing story. But even a cursory inspection of what's being said, if you had even a modicum of science training, would tell you where this sort of thought lies and how much veracity it holds. You can imagine school kids being taken in by this rubbish and I know that some are. That adults would fall for this crud is bad enough but to have it promoted as some realistic alternative to actual science and having kids find it and believe that is, going way beyond a joke. Even as science fiction, it's a bad joke.

What's even scarier is that very similar digressions from reality are being promoted as legitimate avenues of learning and are being supported by politicians, not only here but overseas as well. There are science teachers and parents in the U.S. that are afraid to speak out about the rubbish being promoted as reality because of the power of certain lobby groups and state legislation that's been put into force in some states, promoting the sort of rot that is being bandied about as truth. It's even happening in the U.K. to some extent. Last Sunday's Sunday Sun (QLD) had a 4 page article on what's being taught in the U.K. as "real" science in many schools.

Something should be done about it.

[marki]

Carl I think you may have found your niche or calling in life. The total eradication of the "Electric Universe" ;):P:):D.


Mark

[Bassnut]

Looks plausable to me. Given more and more proper thinking people agree the earth was created in 7 days, wouldnt plasma discharge occur on a much shorter time scale than water errosion and therefore be a much more likely cause?.

[Astrobserver99]

I have seen a lot of this type of nonsense around the net. I doubt censorship would help much...it would just pop up elsewhere...education might be the key

[joe_smith]

Hmmm wasn't it created in 6 days?? "he who must not be mentioned" took the 7th day off for a rest :zzz2:

[TrevorW]

It is a disused mining site, the aliens left over 60000 years ago when the vien run dry

[Screwdriverone]

How does he get from "where did all the eroded material go"? and "how does water cut vertical cliffs", then state without reason that the valley narrows from this point (which doesnt have any relevance), skip over the plausible explanation of faults causing fractures and depressions in the underlying rock, and then sum it all up with Plasma discharge on an interplanetary scale?????

Must have found a hidden crop in the bush and took some home to try out in his cookie baking,...me thinks.

I agree Carl, Claptrap sums it up succinctly.

Cheers

Chris

[renormalised]

Mark, you signature sums them up beautifully:)

[renormalised]

And we even have a firm date for that occurrence, from the good Bishop Ussher of the CoE. 17th Century ecclesiastical science at its finest:):P

It all started on 23 Oct 4004BC...according to the good bishop and the playschool clock:):P

[renormalised]

Problem is it's coming from so called "educated" people...at least a few of them are. The others might have an education but they've obviously forgotten everything they were ever taught.

Including how to think logically and critically.

What needs to happen is that the educators in schools need smartening up and the role of curriculum setting taken out of the hand of politicians and bureaucrats and put back into the hands of specialised teachers with a lot of experience in the subjects to be taught.

[AndrewJ]

I suggest everyone should be required to reread Asimovs "Foundation" series.
Based on this current thread source and what's also going on with the general dumbing down of society, i reckon we're just entering the age of the priests;)
Bring on Hober Mallow

Andrew

[renormalised]

It happens all the time with civilisations....they get to a point in their development, then they just fall apart at the seams because they go soft in the head. Or they let the little bit of "termite and mold damage" they seem to have to get out of control. Only one problem with Foundation....who's going to wait around 10000-15000 years for civilisation to come back to prominence:eyepop::P:D

[marki]

Nearly right mate. What needs to happen is education should be removed beyond any politics and from the control of politicians themselves. Each incoming party thinks it has to make changes whether good bad or ugly no matter what is at stake or the consequences of their desire to big note themselves whilst pulling the wool over parents eyes. Science teachers in WA have just completed a ten year fight with the politicians and silly academics and to some degree we won (polies got kicked out and we retained some sembelance of a workable curriculum). I can tell you straight out that non of this nonsense would ever be taught in a science classroom except with the intention to expose it for the rubbish it is. We need such material to expose kids to the idea of critical thinking and you can bet I have bookmarked that webpage. Have you looked at the preposed national science curriculum?

http://www.acara.edu.au/default.asp

Mark

[Barrykgerdes]

In 2012 you will find out how it happens if you can survive the end of the earth;);):lol:

Barry:question::screwy:

[renormalised]

That's what it is good for...to show students just what bad science is and how bad it can get.

No, I'll have to have a look at it. One thing I can say is this...students need to know how to read and write properly, as well as have the basic maths skills down pat before they do anything else. Some of the work I've seen uni students submit is atrocious. How they ever got past grade 10, let alone senior high school, is a mystery to me!!!

[DavidU]

Plasma discharge:lol:
Why not glacial erosion from the ice age?

[marki]

Thats easy Carl, It's called outcomes based education. No student is allowed to fail.......they may have their little feelings hurt. That is what we have been fighting for so long.

Mark

[Robh]

It's easier to paint fantasy than attempt to understand reality. In fact, for some strange reason, the more absurd the claims the greater the zeal of its followers.
There's a reason so many people are scientifically illiterate. They just don't take the time to read. Running an entertainment system is enough science for them.
As for our impressionable young ... TV, cinema, concerts, celebrities, computer games, shopping, sport and mobile phones. It's all just so time consuming! Who's got time for science?

Learning used to be its own reward. Like wow, I get it!
Nowadays, everything has to have an entertainment or utilitarian aspect e.g. will this make me money?

Regards, Rob.

[renormalised]

Hopefully, that'll mean going back to spelling and maths tests every week to keep them on their toes, and reading, writing, comprehension tests being set on a regular basis. If they do fail, then they sit the tests again after remedial learning and work, until they do pass. Just like when we were going to school.

[renormalised]

That's exactly right, Rob. The madder the idea, the more zealous and evangelistic its followers are. It's the old religious impulse at work:)

Not only do they not take any time to read, many of them are functionally illiterate in any case. I've seen students at uni that can't read anything beyond 1 or 2 syllables. At least that's the impression they give. The standard of reading and writing in society in the last 30 or so years has gone down so far it's deplorable. As you mentioned, it's just a click, click, click world with attention spans lasting all of 10 seconds and even there some can't last that long.

[M54]

Yes, Karl Marx once said...'Religion is the opiate of the masses'. (not necessarily my view)

Entertainment and shiny gadgets are now the opiate of choice.

[sjastro]

If you think the article is rubbish take a look at their forums.
Being a mathematician I get a real laugh at their attacks on mathematics and mathematicians.

Here are some examples.

(1) Comments on "How the Universe Works" documentary narrated by Stephen Hawking.

"There it is folks... there is the experiment of the worshipped relativist... all that is required is your miiiiiiiind.

This is not physics
This is not science
This is stoopid nonsensical retarded misleading mathematical thought-game filth of which can never be consistently reproduced, therefore It is not an experiment."

"The Discovery Channel has been airing a series, How The Universe Works, explaining the secrets of the Universe (to the feeble minded masses) and I cannot help but to be impressed by the sheer magnitude of the hubris of these mathematical theorists! such as, but not limited to, Stephen Hawkings."

(2) Comments on the Standard Model of Particle Physics.

"The only thing spinning in this context of "spin" would seem to be the mystical mathematician's web of deceit and delusion. Don't know much of his rope theory but I'd have to go with Gaede on this one with respect to the mathematician's conjuring of ... spin."

(3)Comments on New Math
(This "new math" is a website that takes a swipe at mathematics. Needless to say it has a lot of fans)

"Non-Euclidean geometry is a sick joke and contains a theorem which demonstrates itself to be a joke.

It's called Lobachevsky Theorem 20 which proves mathematically that Non-Euclidean geometry is false.

"Theorem 20: If in any triangle the sum of the three angles is equal to two right angles, so is this the case for every other triangle." -- Nikolai I. Lobachevsky, mathematician, 1840"

Regards

Steven

[renormalised]

Here's another piece of "infinite wisdom" I found in a signature there...

Or how about this particular thread...

http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3073

[luigi]

I've never seen someone confuse a glacier with an interplanetary plasma discharge. Maybe the writer doesn't have a cat?

[sjastro]

It's the sort of "international recognition" that IIS doesn't deserve.

Regards

Steven

[multiweb]

:lol: If you're a plasma cosmologist he'll beat you well with his 'science for dummy' third edition book. Watch out! :eyepop:

[renormalised]

I'll give it away to them, might even get Stephen Hawking and Ned Wright to autograph it for them....

"To ....., may you black holes suck and your space forever expand, love Stevie and Ned":):P

[renormalised]

No, it's not, but it's at least expected from the "hot air group":)

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol: lol Chris :rofl:

[sjastro]

You have to include the infamous cosmologist Rocky Kolb as well.

Kolb on reviewing Plasma cosmology's claim that spiral galaxies are formed by electric currents, stated he could form a more convincing theory based on toilet water spiral patterns when the loo is flushed.

Steven

[AstralTraveller]

If that's what it does to you then that is the best argument against legalizations I've ever heard. :screwy:

[AstralTraveller]

The trouble with attempting to debate this type of bollocks is that it's hard to know where to start. It's layer upon layer of falsehoods (eg water can't cut cliffs), misinformation (yes the valley does narrow downstream but that doesn't mean eroded material can't be transported out of the area) and false comparisons (pisolitic laterite cf Martian 'blueberries') all glued together with logical non sequiturs (it's not water so it must be plasma). It's like unscrambling eggs.

On the subject of scientific literacy I'd like to offer some more cheerful commentary. A now-retired academic (geologist) commented a couple of years ago that he felt that the average standard of science students had fallen over the decades. Part of this is certainly because uni is far less elitist than it was - far more students - and maybe also a fall in the standard of secondary education. However he felt that the top students are as good as ever, probably better. I sat in on some Honours students' seminars yesterday and was really quite impressed, in fact in one case blown away (that woman will go far). I reckon the standard is better than it was a decade ago. So it's not all doom and gloom.

[marki]

I see you found that thread Carl:P :lol:.

Mark

[avandonk]

When ever I come across these people with new radical theories I ask one question.

What have you had published in a legitimate scientific peer reviewed journal?

If the answer is nothing, then they can be ignored.

From a quick read this charlie passes all the crackpot tests with flying colours.
The sad thing is if he is sincere he is just deluded and scientifically ignorant. If not sincere he is just another con man. Maybe he could advise the Merchant Banks as they have a firm grip on reality.


Bert

[Rob_K]

By swilling coffee in a 4-sided cup, I can create a beautiful representation of a 4-armed spiral galaxy. This will form the basis of my radical new science of cosmology. It is also less confronting than toilet bowl patterns. Adherents welcome - please form an orderly queue, and leave your brains at the door.

Cheers -

[renormalised]

Unfortunately, Bert, he's not the only one at that particular site. And then you have legitimate "scientists" (electrical engineers to be more correct) coming out with "supporting" evidence for these ideas. You should read some of the nonsense Anthony Peratt and Don Scott have spouted. These guys are supposed to be "experts". And, when they do publish any material on the subject it's in IEEE journals of plasma physics and IEEE electrical engineering journals. When they do put a paper into an astronomy journal, it's in one of the more obscure, less cited and somewhat less stringently peer reviewed journals. That immediately tells you what the quality of the work is like and why they're trying to hide from the astronomical community in general. They know just how far their nonsense will get.

How's this for an example....I have a paper by Perrat (here's his biography (http://www.ieee.org/organizations/pubs/newsletters/npss/0306/peratt.html), if you're interested), that claims, amongst other things, that the human shape stick figure petroglyphs found around the world were all inspired by mega scale plasma discharges within the Earth's upper atmosphere and surrounding space due to a two orders of magnitude increase in solar activity several millenia ago!!!!. Here's the abstract from his "paper"

It's titled..."Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current,
Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity"

Any competent archaeologist, or even solar scientist/space plasma physicist would laugh at the suggestions being made in the paper. Guess where this was published....the IEEE Transaction on Plasma Science. I doubt even most of his colleagues would consider this as being legitimate. If they did, they should take a good look at themselves.

[CraigS]

Just read thru that thread you posted marki.

Get a load of this one (from the thread):
"I also find it useful to dig up mainstream plasma physics papers, relating to research pertinent to the subject of the discussion, to support the EU stuff."

Real-time reverse engineering in progress, folks ... !

Rising above the detail & trenches however, I feel the onslaught of pseudo-science thesedays may be somehow a product of Science teaching's own creation.
From my own experience, I recall feeling miserable and ostracised at school because 'I didn't get it' when it came to Science & Maths. Perhaps it was just me but somehow, I don't think so. Anyway, I kept at it and eventually broke thru this barrier. However, I now realise as an adult, many others didn't succeed in the challenge and they carry a grudge against that which 'ground them down'. What we subsequently see is a 'payback' motivation.

I know all this sounds a bit conspiratorial. However, it is also very much human nature. This motivation when combined with a partially acquired semblance of what Science is really about makes for a pretty aggressive, reactionary and cunning type.

Please excuse my analytical approach to this, but understanding the problem would seem to be the first step to developing a response. I'm not sure what that is but few have succeeded with current approaches.

Onya Carl ... !! ... Cosmology's Rottweiler !! (He'll probably never talk to me again after that one or .. more likely he'll probably throw more reading material at me).
:)

Cheers & Rgds

[renormalised]

Oh, I've known about that thread for quite some time. It's one of the tamer ones.

[renormalised]

Woof woof...growl:):P

The reason why people "don't get it" with science is a cultural thing, driven by decades of media nonsense and a general lack of application amongst students in schools. Also, in some cases, poor teachers.

People have been brought up to believe science is some sort of "mad nutters" subject and only weirdos seem to be interested in it. They're also brought up to believe it's too hard to do and only super smart eccentrics are able to understand it. Mostly, it's just laziness on the part of the students. Like all subjects they don't particularly like, or understand, they just don't want to do them. Rather play sport, do art, anything but those subjects that require them to use a little bit of discipline, logic and thought. These days, most kids would rather vegetate in front of a computer screen/playstation or watch some mindless drivel on TV. And they're being catered to by the media and their parents, in fact all even at schools.

No, we should all be mindful of the nonsense and garbage that's going around.

[xelasnave]

You should not let it upset you so much Carl.

As Bert said ask if any folk barking have had a paper published.

If one has a brain one will use it and come to reasonable conclusions so don't worry to much about how fools may influence others.

In the past I would bag big bang and an electric universe both in the one breath:D but my style is to attack to find truth, to expose my weakness to draw in an opponent to point out why I am wrong ....and that comes from being an ex lawyer not an ex scientist and my background said much about the way I went about things... it always saddened me to upset anyone or not to extend the respect they extended to me... I presented my ideas as a crackpot out of respect for the science I was trying to learn about... mainly so young ones would not be influenced by my off the track notions upon gravity etc.

There will always be folk who think different, act different etc and really it does not matter if they are right or wrong what matters is ones ability not to get upset and let an opposing view annoy you.

As I mentioned in another thread my best mate is a tarot card reader, believes in planet x, 2012 end of the world, various conspiracies etc etc... basically I could argue against any point he makes about anything really.. but I finally think...does it matter:shrug:... it is his view what does it matter what he thinks it is not my job to re educate folk who believe in magic or god.

One can be concerned that folk with crazy views will influence others and the sad news is that happens all the time but I do not think burning their books is a good idea or trying to control their views.

Look at religion for example..I don't buy it but I live in a country that opens its parliaments with the recognition of a God I do not believe in...what do you do? get upset or simply realize the general premise of the above.

Please focus on stuff worth worrying about and don't push your blood pressure both for this and all the others you will encounter in your life.

best wishes:thumbsup:

alex:):):)

alex.

[CraigS]

Nahh .. some(most)times it helps to get angry !

[xelasnave]

It never never helps to get angry in my view... when I have it tends to ruin my life... but again we are expressing views and no one needs to be correct ...being old helps one to stay cool and when old staying cool I really believe keeps you young or rather stops you from drying out faster than others.

alex

[CraigS]

Ahh .... (1) it depends on what you do with the anger .. and (2) being old doesn't mean suppressing the passion and staying 'cool' .. phooey to that .. !!

Cheers.

[OICURMT]

Interesting read here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfv%C3%A9n-Klein_model#Comparison_to_mainstrea m_cosmology

being an engineer, I *really* love data to back up a point...

I am always ready to change my mind on the basis of sound scientific analysis based on hard data. I do it all the time when I analyze a reservoir engineering problem (oil and gas development). I don't see NASA doing anything different to me. Scientist always yield to the power of new data...

I do however have a problem with quoting papers that are not peer-reviewed and sanctioned. All scientific (science, engineering, medical, etc...) should be scrutinized by others in the field in order to weed out the wheat from the chaff. I've personally authored several papers in Petroleum Engineering. Two were deemed important enough to be peer-reviewed as new engineering methods to carry forward in my particular field of science. They rest of them stand on their own, with people welcome to ignore them or take them at face value. This is what makes the sciences great.

That said, I have noticed a definite belligerent attitude against Magueijo which I cannot explain. Peer-reviewed or not, there seems to be a dim view of his "solution" to one of the major problem with modern cosmology, the horizon problem (I find his notions intriguing).


OIC!
P.S. Sometimes I wish I studied physics instead of engineering... it would make it much easier to understand all this "*gobbledy-gook*" ... :rofl:

[renormalised]

It's not so much as upsetting me, Alex, as I see what is basically bad science and sheer nonsense being targeted at people who would fall for it because they don't know any better. Where it's promoted as a serious alternative to standard theory when much of it is just pure speculation and has been looked at by many other scientists and rejected because it has little observational veracity whatsoever. I have never denied the importance of plasma physics in astronomy and have said so to these jokers numerous times, but it just falls on deaf ears because they're so awestruck by their own self importance that they can't see the forest for the trees. You know yourself, I am no one for just towing the party line, so to speak, and Steven would even say so himself, but there comes a time when you just have to say something has just gone too far. There's nothing wrong with stating an idea or theory about something, but you have to be able to back what you say up with good, hard and verifiable data, not just opinion, supposition and circumstantial evidence. You also don't go and take science, any science, and turn it into a farce, as these guys have. And worst of all, if you're going to make mention of a field of study outside your expertise, unless you extremely certain of what you're saying, you should expect to be criticised and very strongly rebuffed. For instance, how would it sound for a geologist to turn around and tell a neurosurgeon what to do?? Or for yourself to turn around and tell a fully qualified mechanic that he didn't know what he was doing or talking about??. That's exactly what these guys are doing. Regardless of Peratt's and Scott's qualifications as electrical engineers, what would they actually know of astronomy/astrophysics, cosmology, geology etc. I wouldn't tell them how to do their work, I'm not qualified to. So what makes them special enough that they feel (overly) qualified to make pronouncements about astronomy and geology (and other areas of science) that makes them so much more informed than all the others in those fields. Why should they be privy to information or knowledge that all those in these fields not have. They then criticise those scientists in these fields for "bad science" and expect to be taken seriously. To make matters worse, you have dopey twits with no expertise in any of these fields, or in anything at all for that matter, loudly proclaim for all and sundry to hear that they have some sort of "secret" knowledge they wish to grant on the great unwashed and those heathens they deem other scientists!!!. Give me a break!!!. David Talbott isn't even a scientist, despite what his degree might say, Wallace Thornhill only has an undergrad degree in physics and electronics, and Eric Lerner, a self styled "plasma physicist", with barely a undergrad degree in the subject, for the most part a sci-fi author. None of them ever finished post grad, even when they actually took it up. And they are the "Doyens of the Electric Universe", along with Peratt and Scott. At least Peratt and Scott have recognised postgraduate qualifications and reputations in their field. As for the fringe dwellers who hang on their word, enough said about them, the better (as I mentioned before).

That's why I seem upset, Alex. Anyone with half a brain can see what they're at here...for some it's just sheer unadulterated promotion of their books, for others it's just an ego trip into areas of science they have no business stepping into without having the proper knowledge to do so, and for the fringe it's just another thing to believe in until something else shinier and newer comes along. It's quasi religious in nature and reeks of cultism.

[marki]

Well what is gravity you ask? I have seen many arguments on this site but have sat back smuggley knowing the undisputable answer. It's like this see. All things on Earth have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. These fine little creatures cover every nook and cranny and they are very strong due to their huge numbers. Now if you get a really good magnifying glass you will see the Earths surface is actually made up of little tiny wincey hooks to which by some evolutionary reason, bacteria cannot help grabbing onto. Wallah our bacterial overlords are the cause of gravity not some silly notion of attraction between masses. Based on this observation (carefully studied after tripping in a gutter after a good night out) I here by propose an astounding and well supported theory that we will only find gravity were bacteria live and all this stuff about interacting galaxies is shear nonsense. If you need proof well I only have to point to evidence gathered by NASA when humans set foot on the only other other celestial body besides Earth. No traction, bouncing all over the place, and the film footage is there for all to clearly see. We know only a few strains of bacteria can live without oxygen so the delpeated numbers were not enough to give the astronaughts any grip. Now I am off to frame my postulate to explain dark matter. Some how I feel this is going to be a grave situation :P:D.

Mark

[renormalised]

Well, you could be right, you know. Bacteria outweigh all the other living creatures on this planet by a substantial margin. Surely this must contribute to the mass of the planet in general....and those little hooks, along with the gooey stuff they secrete as waste products must be keeping all of us firmly planted, feet to the ground:):P

[xelasnave]

Carl I understand how you feel... at least if these folk are occupied with fractured science it will at least keep them out of politics.

MArki I can accept that bacteria are responsible for gravity but only if they do it via push:lol::lol::lol::P.

alex:):):)

[multiweb]

This is sooo cool!.... I never figured domestos being the next break through in anti-gravity devices. :thumbsup:

[renormalised]

Only one problem Alex, we already have jokers like these in politics. They beat their EU buddies to the punch years ago:):P

Oh, it's not only push...it's pull, prod, slime and slither:):P

[renormalised]

Patent it Marc, quick, before someone else does:):P:thumbsup:

[CraigS]

Where can I buy the book ?

[renormalised]

Bunnings or Mitre10:):P

[marki]

Hah I have only just got started. Want mathematical proof? Easy and no silly calculus will be needed.

1 bacteria + 1 bacteria = 2 bacteria.

By my definition that = 2 x the grabbing power thus double the gravity. The silly physics crowd would simply try to explain it away as double the mass. As for the antigravity by demestos....too late Marc I already have a patent for that one. Soon supermarket shelves will be filled with bottles of antigravity magic on special at $1.99 :P:D. And Alex, gravity is not push but rather push/pull with elements of suck, twist and blast. I will release the details when I have finalised the hypothesis and founded the Church of Cosmological Bacteriology.

Mark

[rally]

Carl,

I have pondered over this thread a few times.

You may be right (probably) and you may be wrong (not impossibly) but I am not sure that it matters.

Firstly, you can never silence them, more likely you have furthered their cause, by this very discussion, much of which can now be regurgitated and taken or misquoted out of context should that be desired, but you have certainly promoted it and you have brought further awareness of the "theories" you speak about.
Any publicity is good publicity sometimes !

However, silencing people with any sort of ideas is not necessarily a good thing (nor possible) - Science would never have been allowed to prosper if all who spoke up was silenced in the beginning or worse yet gave up.

We do live in a true democarcy where people have a right to an opinion rightly or wrongly - the internet is unfortunately living proof of that and the ability to promote them, but it will take more than a few crusades to change that and that process never worked either !

But what I think should be considered is - if some silly goose wants to invent a baseless theory and an even smarter goose gets stimulated by the ideas presented and comes up with a variant and forumulates his own hypothesis and a brilliant Goose then develops some tests and experiments to validate some aspect of so that many other smart and brilliant geese can agree - then maybe we are on to something !
Its not the peer review process I am discussing here - its the collaborative exchange of ideas - good and bad that stimulate thought and further ideas.

The standard model isn't working properly, that we know all too well and some sort of a paradigm shift may well be required to develop an alternative unified theory/model - so far that hasnt come from mainstream scientific thought, so maybe we should not be so quick to dismiss them outright.

I am not advocating that you accept their theories at all or in any way, but many of sciences best discovereies were discovered by accident or were developed from an offbeat idea well away form mainstream acceptance that showed promise.

And where do the the string theorists fit ?

Just a thought.

A lively one this be !

Cheers

Rally

[xelasnave]

Hey Rally how are you going:hi:...

Look don't worry about the standard model I have nearly fixed it:eyepop: ...

Even now CERN are looking for my push particle and I feel they will find it although I think where they are looking for a single 200 pv item unfortunately it will be a group of particles that add up to 200 each of only 50 pv and strangely it will take five 50 pv units to make up 200pv:rolleyes: ... so even if they dont find a single big one I know there will be smaller ones making up for the projected mass of the HB (pv is short for push volts;))

Anyways so good to know you are alive and well:thumbsup:.

alex:):):)

[renormalised]

Yes and that's a problem. Any publicity can be good or bad, it all depends on how you read it. But something like this needs to be brought to people's attention because despite any good that may come to them from it, eventually they'll be seen through quite clearly and then ignored.

It's not about silencing people or ideas, it's about exposing the nonsense that some promulgate as sound science and alerting people to the fact. Especially when they go out of their way to ridicule the science and reputations of those that actually do sound science. Most of the fringe dwellers haven't a clue anyway, and are rather hypocritical in their behaviour.

True democracy...that is so fallacious on so many levels, but that's not the problem here or the subject matter. We all have rights to opinions and such, but even that isn't the crux of the matter. What the whole thing is about is truth and honesty in science, about the scientific method, about sound and accountable science. It's not about promulgating the fantasies of a few individuals, spiced up with science that has been misused in order to push an ideological bent that has nothing to do with science but more to do with cult catastrophism and alternative historical musings. Much of this recent stuff can be traced to one man, Immanuel Velikovsky. If you don't know who that is, look him up on wiki. You'll see where their raison detre comes from.

It may take a silly goose to come up with a baseless theory and another lot of gooses to come up with another theory and experiments to test them, but the problem with baseless theories and silly gooses is for the most part they lead science down a dead end...up the garden path. Carl Sagan I think it was who put it very elegantly, quote... "It's always good to keep an open mind to things, but not so open it becomes a sewer"...end quote. That's true of anything, but especially of science. You can get to the point of entertaining such ridiculous notions, if you're not careful and thoughtful enough, that it becomes less like science (or whatever) and more like religion. A journey into cloud cuckoo land. Despite any scientific trappings it may bring along with it.

Yes, many scientific discoveries were generated by accident and by unique thinking, but not by going off on some wild tangent and dragging science along with it for the ride. At least, not science that has been basterdised to suit some other agenda.

String Theory will live or die on its own merits....future science will be the arbiter of that, not the present. Not unless there's some major breakthrough in empirical science and theoretical understanding.

[GrahamL]

What happened to the amateur science forum for this Carl ?

Its been pretty quiet though all the open astronomy forums since this stuff had been given a home of its own .

I mean no offense to the many genuine and informative posts in regard to science in the forums but the need to drag this
particularly questionable subject matter out of were it should be !

Why so ??

[DavidU]

Look here, 5th paragraph down.
http://www.anomalist.com/

[rally]

Hello Alex !

I am not sure they will find your PP - Push Particle - but then maybe its actually a Force and you have had it wrong all along :)

For your sake I hope they do, but the bookies wont be getting any money from me, likewise they probably wont lose any money from someone finding the Higgs Boson either, but I am sure they will discover many things of significant interest.

Alive and well - yes, but it seems astrophotography is all consuming - its all about getting there rather than actually doing it !
Keeps me off the streets.

Everyone seems to get so wound up by the Meaning of Life and the answer to the Universe and Everything !
Sure its the biggest most important unanswered question of all time, but its not a holy war.
. . . in the mean time life goes on, normally.

Cheers

Rally

[rally]

Carl,

The world has been of fools, morons and suckers since eternity and those seeking to benefit from them one way or another.

But we are not all incapable of differentiating between good science and non science.
Even (some) kids at school these days get lessons on how to work out what is reliable info (or not) on the internet.
They are given half a dozen diffreent sources of information about the same subject and then they have to work their way through it and ocme to a conclusion.
Maybe we all need to get our internet filtering drivers licences before we are allowed install our first web browser !!

There is a site http://www.crank.net/
Maybe that is good place to start reporting them.

I dont have a solution, but I suspect none exists - it may be that you will have to rely on the resilience of the human species for that, we all learn in different ways and for many that is the hard way !

Keep up the good work

[DavidU]

This site is a beaut. Carl, have a look at this........
http://members.fortunecity.com/reactor1967/

[GrahamL]

What happened to the amateur science forum for this Carl ?

Its been pretty quiet through all the open astronomy forums since this stuff had been given a home of its own .

I mean no offense to the many genuine and informative posts in regard to science in the forums but the need to drag this particularly questionable subject matter out of were it should be !

Why so ??

[renormalised]

Because it's not strictly science, but about science. More to the point, the whole philosophy of science. To be honest, if stuff like EU was to be given a home, it would have a forum called "Questionable Science and Pure Speculation", but we don't have a forum named as such. Nor should we. That's the reason why I stuck it in the General Forum because it's not strictly a science topic. More a topic on the behaviour and principles of those that post speculation and expect everyone to swallow their party punch line. In many cases, this speculation has delved deeply into the realms of fantasy and quasi religious rantings. That's not science. It's even questionable philosophy.

[renormalised]

Thanks:)

I'll have a look later...not that I need to build a nuke!!!!:eyepop::P

[renormalised]

No, that's true.

That's true as well....but the people on this forum are far from being average in their knowledge for the most part and are a bit brighter than average. Your average person in the street might not be so discerning. Nor would they have the knowledge behind them to make a critical choice.

I'm sure there is no real solution, apart from making people aware that everything you read and hear about isn't always kosher.

[avandonk]

I reckon after much observation of my Jack Russel Terra that that mountain was eroded by a Jack Russel after a rabbit. It must be true as only a Jack Russel would be foolish enough to dig such a big hole for one rabbit.
I have done the calculations and it would only take him about two thousand years to dig that hole. Well within the upper bounds of the age of the Earth which at best is seven thousand years old.
I cannot think of any other rational explanation for the curious erosion we observe than that caused by legions of Jack Russels all over the Earth.
Any one who doubts my theory can see the vast amount of evidence in my book.

The Cosmological Forces of Canine Driven Terra Forming.

Bert

[CraigS]

Where can I get a copy of that ?

[renormalised]

Is that dating in relation to Bishop Ussher's calculations??:P

That may also explain all these impact craters we see as well!!

[renormalised]

Amazon.com....Bert's famous, you know;):thumbsup::P:D

[CraigS]

Do you think he'd autograph it for me ?

[renormalised]

I should think so!!!!:P

[avandonk]

As I am now almost as famous as the famous Eccles of Goons fame I will only require a small fee for my moniker.
Photographs of bank notes are unacceptable. Gold coins I can bite my tooth into prefered.

Bert

[marki]

Thats more like it, this thread is so much better when everyones taking the mickey out of something. Bert i think between your Jack russel and my bacteria we may finally have a unifying theory of everything :P:D.

Mark

[DavidU]

:lol: You guy's.
Berts JRE theory is excellent. (JRE jack Russell erosion) LOL

[renormalised]

You're going to need an agent for all the interviews and such:). Plus, when the filming rights come out, you can't go into those negotiations without a manager and lawyer:):P

[avandonk]

All the same folks this is not a laughing matter. We live in an age when only a few really understand the technology we all take for granted and some consider their God given right.

The world is full of charlatans and Carl is dead correct to rail against them.

I rail against the darkness of ignorance. As only a decent education can protect you from despots that will use the primitive component of your fears to attempt to control you by engendering fear of others or the fear of the unknown.

Science by its very nature is counterintuitive. It does not pass the logical test of an informed layman. These facts are well known by the con merchants. They will use the standard cons of setting up a straw man and then killing him with so the called logic of connectedness of 'facts' that are barely relevant to each other. They no more have 'the answers' than my little toe.

I would even go so far to say that even what I am saying should be looked at critically as I could be conning you all as well.

Again I say your only defence is knowledge that can filter the gold from the dross by a critical mind.

As a little aside Marci bacteria do rule the world. Something like 70% of your body weight is water. Of the remaining 30% dry weight more than a third is bacteria that enable you to survive. So where do we begin and end?

Bert

[Esseth]

Oh my oh my, thats a new one...

[renormalised]

The problem is that many kids are leaving school without being taught how to think critically, to think logically and with any discipline at all. Or they just forget about it when they leave school. When they become adults, this carries on over and then when something turns up that is obviously a con, many get sucked into it because they can't see it. They don't have the background to filter out the good from the bad. This happens even to supposedly well educated people as well. But it all really depends on those skills they learn or don't learn as children. It's wonderful to be able to think outside the box, have that intuition and imagination, but it also has to be tempered by discipline and logic when needed. Only then can it be put to the best use.

And, as Bert has said, this is not a laughing matter. If we allowed any old thing to be considered as factual and have currency, without first checking that it stood up to all the criteria for being considered worthwhile, we'd be in up to our necks in all sorts of nonsense. Yes, there are some things our science and technology can't, as yet, prove or disprove, but we can certainly give well reasoned and educated guesses at what might be the case. But when things begin to devolve into sheer speculation, confabulation, fantasy or anything else which can lead to confusion then we become lost. Sometimes, there need to be limits put on things. Not because we may overstep some predetermined limit to knowledge, but to make sure we're heading in the right direction and don't get too sidetracked. Sometimes the best path to a destination is not always by the shortcut. It may save you time and effort, but it might also lead you away from the destination and get you into places where you shouldn't be. The ones that do navigate the shortcuts well are very few and far between. They're usually the Einsteins, Faraday's, Hawking's, Witten's and the like. Most of us will never be like them, nor should we be.