The quest for my first telescope (beginner needing advice)

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day gang, let me first say hi and it's great to begin life here on this forum :hi:.

Lately I've bought a few space books and have found myself getting more into astronomy. Facinating stuff indeed! On my mind lately has been the question of what sort of telescope I'd need to see all the wonders of the southern sky. I'm hoping to get some advice and ideas of what would suit me best if I were to go down the road of buying one :). It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right.

I live in the Blue Mountains, west of Sydney. There's lots of dark sky up here to see some cool stuff. I've been doing a little research and have visited a telescope store in Sydney to get an idea of how telescopes work and to get a feel of the sizes of them and ofcourse the price tag too! Gee there's so much to absorb and so many variations on what to buy!

I guess that what it comes down to is what I personally want to do with the telescope. So here's my requirements...

First thing is that I've got a budget to work under. Is $500 enough to get hold of something decent? I'm an absolute beginner, but I don't want to get something that I'l grow out of quickly. I want to keep it as I gain more knowledge and experience and use it too as an intermediate.

So what do I want to see? I want to see the polar caps on Mars, detail on the moon, distant planets like Saturn and Jupiter. Basically I want something that won't dissapoint me. I understand that you see more with a bigger telescope diameter. Perhaps an 8 inch diameter would be suitable? As I see it, a 4 1/2 inch just won't deliver the goods.

I've looked at refractors, Newtonians reflectors, Newtonian dobsonians, and those shorter cassegrains. Very interesting stuff. It seems Newtonians get the best value for money. The problem I see though is that an 8 inch newtonian telescope is bloody huge! What I want is a telescope that I can transport around easily to the neighbourhood oval. Newtonians just seem too bulky. How heavy are they? Do people lug these things around easily? Do they have carry cases (like a guitar case) that aid in transportation?

The other thing I noticed is that a dobsonian mounting is a lot cheaper than an equatorial mounting. Perhaps I could cut some costs and go for a dobsonian? However, how important is it to have an equatorial mounting? Is it really a necessity or is it easy to get around the issue? What would be some circumstances where an equatorial mounting would be really important to have?

The cassegrain telescopes seem to tick all the boxes - i.e. they are less bulky, yet have the same diameter as newtonians. However, the main drawback is ofcourse the price which is astronomical (pardon the pun).

So, I'm a little stuck and need a bit of advice if possible :). I guess it has all come down to price verses ease of use. A super bulky telescope is not ideal, but may have to do considering the cost of getting something better. Not sure if a smaller diameter (and therefore smaller price) might achieve similar results? Also, do certain brands raise their prices compared to "lesser" brands? Also, perhaps someone could suggest some places to buy telescopes for cheaper prices?

Anyway, that's enough talking from me. Perhaps you guys have some cool advice?

Cheers and hope to hear from ya. :)

[Rockah]

Hey mate

Good question - as a newbie myself, I can provide my opinion based on what I've found which may or may not be a good idea :shrug:

Anyway, my first scope was/is a Maksutov Cassegrain telescope - a 5 inch skywatcher Black Diamond. These scopes are great (across various brands) as they can get large apatures in a small scope and are easy to move around. I then got a 8inch newtonian as it was on sale, and you're right - these are big scopes! But for the price they are great value for money. With size comes mobility issues, and with a smaller price tag you will have more maintenance (collimation). I decided to sell my cassegrain (for sale in this formum for under 500 bucks ;)) as I wanted to do imaging and I bought a refractor. It's an ED80, so a small apature compared to the Mak and the Newt, but it gives suprisingly good views. If you plan on imaging in the future, I'd suggest getting a good mount (equatorial) that can support a heavy load, such as the EQ6. If you're are going to use it just for visual observation, then an Alt/Az mount should be fine, and cheaper.

For 500 bucks though, to get a mount and scope of a big apature might be a little tough to find. You could get a nice scope second hand for that much but you'd be wanting to get a good mount to hold it up, GEM or Alt/Az either way.

In regards to seeing the planets - most scopes will give you good views. All of the above mentioned that I have listed can see saturn and jupiter and the craters of the moon easily, but the polar caps of mars depends on how far mars is away from us at a given time. Right now it just looks like a dot.

But maybe get the opinion of those more experienced first as, like I said, I am still new to all this. Hope that helps :thumbsup:

[Blue Skies]

Ok, hold it right there! It sounds like you might be the kind of beginner who has massively high expectations of what telescopes can do, and you could very likely be disappointed with any scope you get. Start winding those expectations back right now! Better still, get yourself off to a local club meeting and have a look through somebody elses scope and get a feel for what they can do - and find out why an 8" is considered the basic model these days (see below for more comments.)



As mentioned above, an 8" dobsonian is not considered huge, but necessary. There is a very good reason its the most popular size at the moment, its the most versatile size in terms of performance and portability. A 6" is more portable, but you might struggle a bit to pull in the deep sky stuff like galaxies and wont always see as much detail on the planets (oh, and sorry to say but forget Mars for the next 18 months or so until the next opposition comes around). A 10" is lovely, but even bigger! Not everyone is up to that size in a solid tube, including me - I'd think twice about it, but I've been handling scopes long enough that collimating a truss-tube dob or one of the collapsible ones wouldn't phase me.

You could strap the dob onto a trolley, which I have seen done, if you want to wheel it down the road and around the local oval. You're only limited by your imagination there.



Equatorial or EQ mounts aren't essential for general observing. However some people do prefer them - you might too, but you probably wont know until you try! People who are into photography need some kind of tracking, which an EQ mount provides easily.

I'll leave it there and let someone else throw in their 2c worth.

[M54]

Hi jowel,

:welcome:to IIS.

It certainly can be confusing trying to work out what the best scope to buy is, when you don't have any experience of looking through them.

I strongly advise you to attend one of the local astro clubs. They have viewing nights and you can look through lots of different scopes and question the owners as to their pro's and cons.
Here is a link to a list of NSW astro clubs so you can pick the one closest to you...
http://www.quasarastronomy.com.au/society.htm

The type of scope depends on whether you want to do astrophotography or just visual observing.
For visual observing, as the others have said, an 8" dob. is considered the basic piece of equipment. I have a 5" dob (because it was a gift), and it does me ok at the moment, but will want better views a little down the track when I have learned the sky better.

For astro photography you'll have to hear from those experiended in it.

A lot of people here use a site called Andrews Communications and they seem to have very competitave pricing...
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
There is also Bintel...
http://www.bintel.com.au/

But like I said, try the local astro society first, it will be full of friendly and helpful people.
:)

[morls]

Just a brief comment,

I'm also very new to this...I recently bought a second hand 8" collapsible dob through the classifieds here, very reasonably priced, and I've also grabbed a new telrad, cheshire collimator and a couple of half-decent second hand eyepieces.

Not knowing how other telescopes perform, all I can say is I've been blown away by the views I get, and I know this is a scope that will keep me happy for a long time. It's reasonably portable - I can carry it myself, but it takes 2 trips, one with the OTA and one with the mount. Both are pretty easily manageable though....

This forum has been fantastic for getting me going, and I've met some very knowledgeable and generous people who have helped steer me in the right direction....keep asking questions and you should get something great...

[Paddy]

Hi Jowel and welcome.

Number 1,2 &3 is, as Jacqui says, get to a club night and have a look through scopes.

And I reckon an 8" dob is probably the ideal start. They are quite portable and you can easiy move them with a trolley if you like. EQ mounts are much more complex and expensive and for $500 you would end up with not much scope to go with it.

But look through one. Be aware that although you will be able to see heaps through an 8" telescope, things will not appear as they do in astro images.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

I guess that for the money I want to spend, an 8 inch dobsonian seems to do the job. Would it be fair to say that equatorial mounts would only be vital if I were very big into astrophotography? Is it also true that to do decent astrophotography I'd need a scope much larger than 8 inch anyway? So therefore if an 8 inch is all I can afford, then I shouldn't even bother with an equatorial mount, and therefore dobsonian is a clear winnner?

Just how heavy is an 8 inch dob? I'd love to hear more stories about people transporting them around the place. Do they get damaged easily too? If I were to get a collabsible dob for easier transporting, does a collapsible dob have less image quality than a standard dob?

Another question, when using the dobsonian I notice they are low to the ground. I'm a tall guy and so would have to crouch down to look. Is it uncomfortable to use these things or can the problem be avoided with using a stool to sit on or something?

In terms of diameter, I guess an 8 inch would be minimum to see some good stuff. Would a 10 inch do much better or only moderately improve? Is there a website somewhere that shows comparisons of the view through different telescope sizes?

[Liz]

Hello Jowell and welcome. :hi:

I think the 8" Dob will be a very good starter for you, very portable, and pretty light. I had one for many years before upgrading to my 10" collapsible dob. They are 2 seperate pieces and easy to disassemble and pop into the car. They are low to the ground, and I used to pop my 8" mount onto a sturdy box, to make viewing more comfortable. Of late though, I have been using a stool - much better.
I havent had much experience with other scopes, but equatorial mounts are needed for longer exposures in astrophotography, so you can track. You dont necessarily need a big aperture - some of the pics put up in the imaging section are taken with aperture < 8".
If you can afford a 10", then do it as you will upgrade at some stage, otherwise, stick to a 6-8" Dob, then down the track you can sort out what you want for the future. :)

[Paddy]

Hi Jowel,

For any serious imaging you would need an equatorial mount. And I suspect a guide scope, guider etc. So it's a decent amount of investment. An 8" or 10" tube reflector on a dob mount can be put on an equatorial mount later - you would want at least and HEQ5 for an 8" or preferably eQ6 mount. So for imaging you wold be looking at $1200-$2000 for a mount.

Observing chairs, home made or bought ones make using the low eyepiece of an 8" dob quite comfortable. I would say unless you have a back problem, moving an 8-10" dob around should not be an issue. I am not an imager, but I think you'll find the imaging threads replete with this advice from experienced astrophotographers.

But again, there is much to be gained if you can have a look through one first.

[Blue Skies]

Either use a stool or adjustable observing chair or raise the dob on a small platform. Your choice. I would prefer to sit as it makes one steadier and more relaxed - you're not waving around on your feet - and when relaxed you tend to see more.

[morls]

I got a plastic stool from kmart, $10, perfect height and very light to carry. Does the job well....

[Bern]

Hi all

Thank you. This has been an informative thread. I have the same questions as Jowel. Portability is an important issue for me because I would like to take the telescope on holidays (telescopes love a good holiday, I'm told), so it will need to fit in the car along with wife, 2 children, dog and luggage. I have looked at the Celestron 8" SE Schmidt-Casegrain, but this has received mixed reviews - good optics however seriously overpriced (unless you buy it from the US, maybe Amazon or an escrow service), poor build and quality control, particularly the mount, electronics and drive gears. On the otherhand, some people love it. Maybe that leaves me with an 8-10" collapsible dob. So can anyone recommend or comment on alternative-brand, large-aperture casegrain 'scopes? Also which brands have the best reputation for optical and build quality for dobs and casegrain - eg Skywatcher, Meade, Saxon, Guan Sheng.

Thanks for your thoughts
Bern

[Screwdriverone]

OK Jowel and Bern, here's all you need.

Skywatcher Collapsible dobsonian 8" = $449 from Andrews comms.

Best value for money at the moment, AND the top slides down for easier transport and storage in the car. Buy a chair and a planetarium wheel and you are set.

Everything is well within the $500 budget and VERY portable.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Screwdriverone.

Good advice. I have a few questions...

1.
I've been looking around at the different types of dobsonians available and it seems like a Sky-Watcher Dobsonian would be suitable in terms of budget and also diameter. Is this a decent brand? I've heard that the eyepieces can be a bit dodgy? I've also heard that the mirror fogs up when brought outside into the cold. How can these issues be solved?

2.
I can see the benefits in having a more compact dobsonian in the form of a collapsible telescope. However, is a collapsible dobsonian more difficult to use and prone to problems? I've heard that the mirrors can get out of alignment due to the moving parts. Would a standard non-collabsible dobsonian be better in this regard? How hard is it to correct this problem of mirrors out of alignment?

3.
In terms of diameter, I am leaning towards getting an 8 inch. Without yet having the chance to look though an 8 inch, can someone tell me their experiences in terms of what they can see? Can you see galaxies decently? Can you see moons around planets? When looking at Saturn for eg, how much detail can you make out - is it just a large dot or can you see cool stuff like the rings and patterns on the planet? For nebula can you see some decent detail or is it more just like a small cloud of colour and nothing more?

Cheers

[Suzy]

Hi Jowel & Bern,

Point 1
Dobsonians give the largest sized aperture for the lowest cost. For visual observing the largest sized aperture you can handle/transport & afford is recommended. Very quick to set up as well - plonk tube into the base and your set, thereby making them an ideal beginners scope in general.

Point 2
Realise this now... if this is your first telescope, it won't be your last. You will more than likely upgrade; most of us do (be it for either tracking, larger aperture, or astrophotography). Having point no.1 in mind, use your first scope to cut your teeth on and learn. As time progresses, trust me, you will get a better understanding of what it is you want. I myself went from a 6" dob (my first scope), to a 10" dob (2 wks ago) within 6 months. During this time, I learnt that my interest not only intensified, but I was also eager to pursue visual observing. A decent time frame also allowed me to be more educated on the accessories required for the scope. Learn how to handle your scope first, in it's most simple basic form, then add.

The 6" is easy to carry/transport. Though I ended up putting wheels on the base, so I could just drag it everywhere in one unit. The 10" is around 25kg (complete unit). Currently mine is getting wheels attached to the base with a handle that I can drag it by. Bigger and more wheels required on this one. Or you can do what most people do and use a trolley. Believe it or not, the weight is the same for collapsable and solid tube- it's all about portability really. Don't forget, as Liz mentioned recently in a similar post you will more than likely need to get a shroud for it which can be costly (or get someone to make one). Some people manage just fine without them, others complain they need it as stray light gets in. As for the managability of the 8" I can only assume this falls between the two scopes I have used, so I would gather it wouldn't be difficult.

There is a considerable difference in light gathering between a 6 & 10", that quite frankly I didn't expect. Everything is brighter, stars that were once feint are now luminous, coloured stars pop out everywhere. Globular Clusters are more resolvable. That being said, I really do believe my 6" still had plenty to do and see... it served me well, including viewing M104 (The Sombrero Galaxy- 30 million L/Y away- not bad, albeit feint). A lot a 6" is capable of, just a bit feinter. I could resolve globs as well- just took a bit more time to stare them out. My eyes got better at extracting detail. I got a whole magnitude difference (that's 2 and 1/2 times more light) than my 6", if that's any help gauging the difference for.

With what Chris just said, $449.00 for a collapsable dob is a truly fantastic price. But, work out if will require a shroud. You can buy the solid 8" tube dobs for only $489 at the moment from Ozscopes. Their service is fantastic, many (incl myself) have dealt with them and have been very happy with their efficiency and knowledge.
Have a look http://www.ozscopes.com.au/telescope/dobsonian-telescope

The following two links are from the Articles & Projects section on the blue menu bar to the left of the screen. There is plenty of information in this menu section to learn from- make it your next best friend. The following is a beginner's guide to choosing your first telescope - part one: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-260-0-0-1-0.html (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../63-260-0-0-1-0.html)
Then, commence reading part two:
http://iceinspace.com.au/63-261-0-0-1-0.html

Here also, is a link that may be helpful- it is a telescope simulator which will enable you to get an idea of the views you will expect to get through different scopes and eyepieces. It's a lot of fun actually ...
http://www.telescope-simulator.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=57

Lastly, I would like to leave you with some great advice from Ausastronomer (John Banbury- a very knowledgeable gentleman). I’m sure he won’t mind if I quote him here…..

"Some of these cheaper scopes have poor optics, poor finderscopes and even poorer mounts. You will find them to be nothing more than an exercise in frustration. You will not be able to find very much, when you do find something you won't see very much and what you see will not stay in the FOV very long and you will then spend the next 30 mins trying to re center the target. After 2 weeks of frustration the telescope will spend the next 2 years unloved in the corner of the closet, the loungeroom or the garage. Avoid any telescope sold by any store other than a store that specialises in astronomical telescopes. Avoid stores like Dick Smith Electronics, Australian Geographic and Camera stores. These stores carry a very small range of astronomical telescopes and what they do carry is nothing more than junk, in most cases. Experienced people call these XTT's. Short for XMAS TRASH TELESCOPE's. Further, the people who work in these stores might sound like they know what they are talking about when talking to someone who is a beginner, but truth is 99% of the people working in these stores don't know one end of a telescope from the other themselves. Some of these small cheaper scopes are very difficult for an experienced person to use, let alone a beginner.

If you can stretch the budget a little further I would recommend a 6"/F8 dobsonian which you can buy from Andrews Comms for about $350. A scope like this will show you 500X more than some of these other "toy" telescopes and most importantly will be infinitely easier for you to operate and find things in. You want to foster your interest in the hobby, not leave it out of frustration after a short time period."
Cheers,
John B.

Oh, I just read another post you added Jowel. Okay...
The dobs do require more frequent collimation. Especially each time you go up in size. In the 6 mths I had my 6" I never had to collimate it. I've read that with an 8" it is required more frequently, and required even more so frequently with a 10".

Regarding eye pieces, I did notice I got better & heavier ones with my 10" than I did with my 6". But they are still quite ordinary. But initially do the job just fine. Get used to your scope and get educated before you go down this path. Worry it about it later (this includes barlowing).

Scopes require a cool down time (from 30mts for a 6" to an hour with a 10"). This brings the scope to the same temp. as the outside air. All you have to do is take your scope outside and leave it for this time frame before viewing.

I've read plenty of times that collapsable dobs hold their collimation quite well compared to solid tubes. Don't be scared by collimating, once you learn it, you can have it done in a couple of minutes and it will become second nature. Don't let that stand in your way (I've never done it- I'm lazy and leave it up to hubby for now). Laser collimators make things easier.

Skywatcher, Saxon, etc are apparently all made from the same factory- just rebagged.

Okie dokies, I'm done, my hands are sore from all this typing :lol:

Enjoy boys- your in for the time of your lives once you get your scopes!
:D
Regards,
Suzy.

[Suzy]

I use a stool with phone books which I add and take off depending on my viewing requirments. Surprisingly comfy too.

[M54]

Wow!
Well said Suzy!:)

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Suzy. Bloody good post there.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

I had a look at that telescope size comparison website. Thanks Suzy, it's great. The planets would look mostly like very small objects. I guess I was expecting them to be a bit larger. Perhaps attaching a Barlow lens will make it a bit bigger.

As that website only shows examples of how planets would look, can someone please tell me what they can see when you point an 8" reflector at a galaxy or some other cool object out there? How big is what you see? Is it just a large dot too or can you make out patterns in the galaxy? Also, is it possible to see any detail on the planets and any planet moons?

[Paddy]

Planets will look small, but you will be able to see quite a bit of detail on Jupiter eg cloud bands, Great Red Spot, moons in transit as well as their shadows. On Saturn you will see rings and some divisions and a hint of cloud bands, Venus is always white, but you will see its phases. Uranus and Neptune will be blue or blue green discs. What you see on Mars will depend. YOu will usually only get to 300X magnification as the seeing gets worse above that & it all blurs. But you can see a lot at lower mags. Big globular clusters will be impressive, with lots of resolvable stars, open clusters will be beautiful patterns of stars of various hues, nebula will be grey areas of haze, but many will have interesting shapes and dark lanes. Galaxies will also be patches of haze and some will show some detail if you use averted vision.

Above all, you will see more as you learn to observe rather than just casually look. If you look through observation reports you will see that Rob K for example sees heaps more in his 4 1/2" scope than many do in larger ones. What PGC hunter sees through his 12" in light polluted skies is phenomenal compared to what I see through my 16" in dark skies, although I am learning. So if you have modest expectations and patience, you will see a great deal. And if you use averted vision.

[barx1963]

A coupla star parties back i met a fella who was a bit on the tall side. Had his 8" dob sitting on a milk crate. Got it up to his height and was very stable.

[Screwdriverone]

Yep, I did this too as I am 204cm, I made up a "crate" using old 4x2 scrap pine in a 30cm:40cm:50cm rectangular box which I can change sides on to provide the optimum height for the focuser on the 12" dob (which is 150cm long/high) so I can basically stand straight up when visually scanning the sky. MUCH better than sitting down and shuffling the chair around all the time.

I am surprised just how good the views are in my new 8" reflector compared to the bigger 12" dob...

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Just been doing a little research...

SkyWatcher 200mm (8") Dobsonian solid tube (model SW680):
- York Optical: $599
- Oz Scopes: $495
- Andrews Communications: couldn't find it on the website


SkyWatcher 200mm (8") Collapsible Dobsonian:
- York Optical: $649 (for a SkyWatcher SWFLEXDOB-8)
- Oz Scopes: $650 (for a SkyWatcher Black Diamond 8" Collabsible - model SKY-FLEXDOB-8)
- Andrews Communications: $499 (for a SkyWatcher FLEX-DOB BD 8")


I'm leaning towards getting a collapsible dobsonian because it is more compact and looks a lot cooler :). A few questions though...

I pulled the above information off the respective websites of each shop. For the collapsibe dobsonians I've listed, are these all the exact same SkyWatcher model? They seem to have slightly different model numbers and names??? Would getting one of these SkyWatcher collapsible dobs be a safe purchase? Are they well known and reliable?

Just thinking over the possible accessories I'd need to get. Perhaps someone could give me some advice on what accessories I'd most likely need straight away for the collapsibe dobsonian?

As I see it, I may very weel need to get certain accessories at the same time, being:
- Collimater device (to correct the mirrors before use)
- Light shroud (to keep out stray light)
- Barlow lens (the make everything bigger!)

These things will obviously add up in price and may put me off a bit. Can someone let me know how much these accessories are, and what is a good recommendation for a man on a budget?

Later stuff to buy may well include (???):
- Telgrad finder
- Right angle finder
- Replace the eye pieces for better quality ones
- Crayford focuser
- Camera attachment + lense to help camera focus into eyepiece

Any thoughts?

Well, hope someone can help me out here...

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

See my answers below in italics,



SO, in conclusion, my shopping list for you would be:

8" collapsible Skywatcher dob = $499
GSO Laser Collimator = $59
GSO APO 2.5x Barlow = $49 ( I have one and they are great)
Planisphere (round disc thing which helps you find stars, objects and planets at ANY time of the year) large = $15
Total for collapsible = $622

IF you want the flexibility of connecting the tube to a tracking mount in 12-24 months time when you want to start Astrophotography then a solid tube is your choice there. These are $495 at Ozscopes like you said. So the total would be $4 less = $618. Check with Andrews to see if they can get a 8" solid tube though....

Hope this helps. Like I said, my preferred shopping location is Andrews (they are near me) and I have bought a lot of gear from them and they are always helpful and friendly and Luke (optical manager) and Lee (owner) have been great to deal with. I have only ever had an issue with some binoculars which were out of collimation and they changed these over for me with no questions or complications. They are in Greystanes so easy to get to for you from the Blue Mountains down the M4 and get off at the Reservoir Road exit and then use Great Western Highway to Greystanes Road. Then turn left at the first set of lights and they are in the shopping centre on the right next to the hairdresser. (not open on Sundays though)

I dont have any affiliation with them in any way, just a satisfied customer recommending an excellent business who have great prices and products and are a pleasure to deal with.

Cheers

Chris

[seeker372011]

jowel
the western sydney amateur astronomy group observes from Linden observatory in the Mountains around twice every month

if your money is not burning a hole through your pocket, maybe you should wait for our next observing night, and look through a telescope or five before you spend

narayan

[seeker372011]

and do you have an Iphone? some pretty good astronomy aps are available to help you track down objects. ..makes planispheres obsolete IMHO

also if you can get hold of a book like Turn left at Orion-may be available in your library or they may be able to get it for you, to get an idea of targets
and answer the question now I have a scope, what am I going to do with it

best ever beginner's book , though Northern Hemisphere slanted (just turn the maps upside down)

PS if you cant wait then follow the good advice you have been provided by Chris and bring your scope to Linden so someone can help show you the ropes

[Screwdriverone]

EXCELLENT point Narayan (hey, he is a club member like me). If you want Jowel, come to Linden next observing night (Sat Aug 7th), and I can show you my collapsible dob and my HEQ5 and BD 200 (same kind of aperture tube you will get on the 8" collapsible/solid) and you can see the view through each. I have the other bits and pieces I mentioned too so you can try before you buy. There is also a club meeting on at UWS Nepean observatory in Kingswood next Wednesday at 7:30pm so if you are interested, you can come along to that and talk to club members and see some scopes in action (I might bring mine along there also)

I will be the VERY tall guy so you wont be able to miss me in the dark - :lol: We are also a friendly bunch of people so it will be a good night to come along

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Screwdriverone (Chris), thanks heaps for this advice!

[Mountain_Wanderer]

With the light shroud, I've read that some people need them? Chris, do you only use your telescope in very dark locations or also when there's street lights around? Because yours is a 12", would that mean there's less need for a shroud compared to an 8"? If you had to get a shroud, what would you get?

What are the indicators that stray light is entering the telescope?

Also, is is possible to make a shroud?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

I wouldnt worry about it just yet, yes you can make your own, several here have made them with elasticised fabric and support bars. I use my telescope out the back (suburban - with no direct street lights messing things up) and at Linden (DARK) and have never really seen any stray light unless I set up on the front lawn and the street light across the road gets onto the secondary which makes it flare up like a car's headlights through a rainy windscreen.

As there are a few, I would look for the cheapest one if you were set on getting one, they will improve contrast slightly or block side light from reflecting down the tube if you have street lights where you are going to observe from.

Wait a while until you encounter it and then buy one.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks mate. And just another question...

If I were to connect a camera to the eyepiece would I be able to do some decent photos? I understand that to do sper-duper astrophotography you need an equatorial mount to track the object. However, if I were to take simple photos of the moon and planets etc which don't require any sort of tracking, would this be relatively straight forward to do with the dobsonian?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

Two (or more) ways to do this.

With a DSLR camera (or any other camera with a T Ring adaptor) you can unscrew the 1.25" barrel on the focuser to allow the T ring to screw straight onto the focuser and then can snap away for shots which you can hand guide (this is done by you pushing) by looking through the finderscope. The Skywatcher Crayford focusers should all be able to do this. My two certainly can.

If you get a modified webcam like my Philips Toucam 640, it has an eyepiece adaptor which slides into the focuser and this can then take videos of planets as AVI files which you can split up and stack (see Mike Salway's article on the website on how he does it) to create nice planet shots.

Otherwise, there is a camera adapter which clamps onto the eyepiece which allows you to do Afocal photography by taking a picture of what you see through the eyepiece. This is the simplest method and can use point and shoot digital cameras (where I started). The adapters cost about $40-$50. You can also get an eyepiece projection adaptor which you slide an eyepiece into and then attach a camera to, this costs about the same as the Afocal adapter.

The CHEAPEST way is to simply hold your camera up to the eyepiece and take a photo. Not as stable or reliable as the above, but still doable.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

I've been thinking about the possibility of needing a light shroud lately...

I think it would prove useful in certain situations and would be great to have on stand-by anyway.

So, I've been trying to find where I could get one but so far havn't had much luck. Can anyone point me in the right direction? What sort of price are they and are there good recommendations?

[erick]

I suggest that you just rough up your own design from some dark nylon material to get started. Nylon, or something that is fairly tight weave (stop light getting through) and will resist water (you don't want it soaked with dew and dripping water).

Purpose:-

1. Stop stray light getting into your light path
2. Reduce dew formation on your primary mirror
3. Prevent dropped things (eyepieces - yikes! torches, glasses, drinks!) falling on the mirror!!

Just make sure that it doesn't collapse into the light path - but it would have to collapse in a big way to really cause problems.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Erick. So many people are saying to make one. But really, I'm a novice. Can't I just buy one and be done with it?!:lol:

Where can I get one?

[erick]

Won't cost much to ship from overseas:-

http://www.optcorp.com/category.aspx?uid=105-296-302

http://www.teeterstelescopes.com/shrouds/

http://www.jimsmobile.com/buy_light_shrouds.htm

In Oz:-

Bintel sell a Meade 8" Lightbridge shroud for $55

[Brian W]

Hi Jowel, just a couple of things to consider...
(1) astronomy is a lot like amateur radio in that with the best of equipment atmospherics are still going to rule your observing.

(2) there is no perfect telescope.

(3) there are really great telescopes for many different aspects of astronomy and the secret is to start simple and move into the area that grabs you.

(4) I love my 8" LB not because it is the worlds greatest telescope but because it answers my needs for my type of observing.

(5) read all of the above with large grains of salt cause it is only my opinions and I, as she who must be obeyed reminds me, am many times wrong.
Brian

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day again...

I woke up thismorning feeling that perhaps getting a solid tube is the best way to go, given that there's the option to later on buy an equatorial mount and therefore get some decent astrophotography done.

How good is an 8 inch newtonian telescope on an equatorial mount for astrophotography? Does anyone have astrophotography experience with a telescope this size? Is it decent or is it a significant shortcoming?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

I have an 8 inch Skywatcher Black Diamond reflector (solid tube) on an HEQ5. Still has the new scope smell as I only bought it two weeks ago.

Check out my first attempts at Astrophotography in the Beginner's Astrophotography forum here (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=46).

You will see pics of M8 - the Lagoon Nebula, M20 - Trifid Nebula and M22 - Globular Cluster, all taken with a Canon 1000D DSLR (about $900 now) which was screwed onto the focuser with a T- Ring adaptor.

No guiding used (that's coming later), no fancy control, just the mount aligned and a handful of 30 second exposures stacked to provide better data.

Whilst I have done a bit of capture of planets with a webcam, this was my first red hot go with a proper mount and capable scope for deep sky stuff, take a look and see the results of me starting out. Not in the big leagues yet as this takes a LOT of practice, but I am quietly pleased with the results from only 1-2 hours of playing in the back yard in Suburban North West Sydney.

If you go for the solid tube Dob, then yes, putting this on say an HEQ5 later will be a doddle and you are on your way.....

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Chris, that's bloody awesome!

What about planets? For instance, how big is Jupiter in an 8 inch scope? Got any pics? If not, know where I can view some pics to get an idea of what a planet looks like in an 8 incher?

[Scorpius51]

Hi Jowel

Here is a link to a pic of Jupiter by an IIS member.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=63453

It's rather good for an 8" and could get better with very good seeing and post processing.

John

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

Thanks for the comments, I am pretty happy with those early shots so far. I havent tried the new scope on planets yet, although will be doing this as soon as I can as I want to try the 5x Powermate with the webcam now that I have reliable tracking. I have done some Jupiter and Saturn shots with my 12" dob which shows more details than the 8" should (depending on the barlow used).

Here is one of my better Jupiters with the 12" link (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49109&highlight=jupiter)

And my favourite Saturn here (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=41587&highlight=saturn+data)

Now I know you cant really compare these to what you would see with the 8" so hopefully on the weekend I can get some clear skies and try out a few Saturn and Jupiter shots with the new scope to show you the difference (if the seeing allows)

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks guys. That Jupiter shot now raises my expectations in terms of what an 8" telescope can do. I was expecting a small dot of a planet after using that website that compares telescope sizes!

Is the above photo what you'd typically see by looking straight into the telescope, or does that photo show a lot of colour and detail because the camera shot was exposed for a long period of time? I'm trying to get an idea of the exact size, colour, brightness and detail I'd be able to see if I were to simply look into the 8" scope towards Jupiter.

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

No, the colour is NOT due to long exposures when taking pictures of planets - because they are SOOOO bright we need to take REALLY short pictures, as many as you can to "freeze" the atmospheric seeing. (technical term for the big column of air between YOU and outer space which is turbulent and moving). This is why we use a webcam which can take videos at 30 or 60 frames per second which in reality equates to 60 pictures every second. Once you capture say, 30 seconds of video, then this equates to 30 x 60 frames = 1800 pictures. These are then stacked on top of each other (after throwing away the not so good ones - done by software like Registax) and then you get LOTS more details than just a single exposure which may be blurred when you take it because the atmosphere at the time is moving.

We dont see as much colour on a planet through the eyepiece because our eyes are not as sensitive as say a CCD on a camera or webcam. You CAN still see vague colours and you can definitely see bands on Jupiter and the Great Red Spot etc, but nowhere near as vibrant or detailed as a camera can do. For example, my Saturn pic looks like it has a rainbow of bands on Saturn, but through the eyepiece, it looks creamy white or even beige as my eyes (in the dark) are NOT as sensitive to colours as the camera. Mars however, does look red and you can make out surface details in the eyepiece, depending on how big it is at the time (how close Mars and Earth are to each other in space)

You have to be careful not to expect what you see in pictures here, as it is DEFINITELY NOT what you will see in the eyepiece. My M20 Trifid pic is a prime example of this, a nebula often only looks like a grey wispy blob with your eye, but as you can see in the astrophoto, its red AND blue in reality. However, what you DO see, often blows you away even without all the colour as you are seeing it "live" through your OWN EYES with your very own telescope and often in your own backyard. Humbling and cool all at the same time. AND, very worth it. The first time you see Jupiter or Saturn in your scope will blow your mind and be a memorable moment for you.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks Chris. Always good advice you offer!

In terms of the SIZE of Jupiter you see when looking through an 8", can I expect the same as in that image? Or is that image a super magnified crop of Jupiter that in reality is a VERY SMALL object when viewed?

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

The size of ANY object is determined by the magnification. Typically, the more you magnify something, the bigger it gets, BUT the dimmer it gets also.

What this means is that you can use say a 5x powermate like mine on an 8" scope to BLOW up Jupiter to a larger size, but the limiting factor to how bright it will be is the aperture of the scope. BIGGER opening means MORE light and therefore brighter and more detailed image. If I use my 5x barlow on my 130mm scope the planet is too dark to see anything.

In general terms, magnification limit is approximately 2 x the aperture in mm of your scope. Therefore, with my 130mm reflector, the max is 260x magnification, my 200mm reflector is 400x and my 300mm reflector is 600x. To work out the magnification of an eyepiece, you divide the focal length of the telescope by the focal length of the eyepiece. So, for example, on my 8" (FL=1000mm) a 10mm eyepiece gives: 1000 / 10 = 100X magnification. A barlow (magnifying lens) MULTIPLIES this by whatever factor it is. eg. a 10mm EP with a 5x barlow gives 500X magnification!!! This is pushing it a bit for my 8" scope. Therefore I also have a 2.5x barlow which gives me a more usable magnification on the 10mm of 250X. (my 300mm scope has a FL of 1500mm so the 10mm EP gives 150x, 375x (2.5x barlow) and 750x (5x powermate).

However, the maximum you can view is also dependant on the seeing conditions and the transparency of the sky. Bad seeing shows up as wobbly planet (looks like the planet is underwater and is like jelly in the eyepiece - sort of like heat haze) and this makes things like details, difficult to see. Bad transparency means that the planet looks stable and round but its hard to make anything out as its almost like there is a mist obscuring things.

If you are looking at a 8 inch scope - solid dobsonian (which you can use the tube to mount to an EQ platform later) then you will have either 1000mm focal length or even 1200mm, depending on the brand.
What this means is that you normally get a 10mm and a 20 or 25mm eyepiece with the telescope. Assuming its a dob with 1200mm FL, then the 10mm will give you a 120x mag, the 25mm will give you 48x mag. Rather than buying other eyepieces, you can simply get a 2 x barlow (get an APO one, they are better than ED in my opinion) for about $60 and then you will also be able to double the mag on the 10mm to 240x and 96x on the 25mm.

This will give you FOUR magnification levels; 48x, 96x, 120x and 240x which is PLENTY to get you started. and gives you a good range to work with. As I said, the conditions generally dont let you use REALLY high magnification often, so anything too high is a bit of a waste of money.

Looking at say Jupiter at 48x will show you some banding on the planet and perhaps the GRS but also be wide enough to easily make out probably all of the Galilean moons in the one view (depending on where they are). Switch to say the 10mm with the 2x barlow and you will be at 240x and then you should be MUCH closer and hopefully see more details in the cloud belts and make out more of the GRS and some of the closer moons will also be bigger.

By the way, the easy way I remember the four closest Galilean moons for Jupiter is "I Eat Green Cheese" which refers to (in order from closer to farther away) Io, Europa, Ganymede and Callisto.

When you do end up buying a scope, keep in mind that 2 eyepieces and an 2 x APO barlow will probably suffice for at LEAST 12 months and will enable you to see most of the planets as well as some really cool galaxies, nebulae, open and globular clusters as there are literally thousands of things within reach of an 8" scope and the primary reason most people on IIS say to start with an 8", its a great place to start.

Whew!~ another essay from me....hope your eyes arent too tired...

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Dude. Another bloody ripper of a post there. Thanks!

So, it looks like I'm likely to see a large jupiter in an 8" scope, similar to the size in that photo posted earlier. I won't just be limited to a small dot of a planet. Good times!

[Brian W]

Jowel, hi my primary scope is an 8" LightBridge and once you get in a little experience there's is lots out there to keep you amazed. However it is good to remember that 'large' is not going to happen with Jupiter or any of the planets. You will certainly be able to fill your ep, on a good night with high magnification, but 'large' it won't be.

Detail galore including the GRS but not what I would call large. The moon is large and you can spend hours or a lifetime exploring all the nooks and crannies. But Jupiter, or Saturn while you will see incredible detail with an 8 ie. a couple of weeks back I saw the shadow that was cast on Saturn by the rings you will not appear really large.

Brian

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Dude, I feel ashamed to ask but...

What is an "Ep"?

[mbo]

Eye Piece. Oddly enough, it's not mentioned in the glossary (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/glossary.html) here either.
Apparently poms sometimes call them 'Oculars' too. The bit you look into.
To me (a mug beginner) they seem to be the most confusing and debatable part of a hobby that has probably the greatest variety of confusing and debatable aspects to it ;)

[Brian W]

Hi Jowel, shorthand for eye piece. Don't let my cautionary post discourage you. 8 is great and however you define 'large' you are about to enter the realm of infinity.http://www.iceinspace.com.au/vbiis/images/smilies/eyepopping.gif
Brian

[Brian W]

okay, now I am confused... what's a 'pom'?
Brian

[mbo]

Sorry :-), pommies, as in the British (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_words_for_British#Pommy )
Also, having thought about it, maybe opinions on Art and Music are slightly more subjective than opinions on astronomy equipment :lol:

[Brian W]

maybe yes maybe no... we hear the music of the spheres and see the art work of the gods and we all have an opinion about what best helps us to hear and see the dance.
B.

[mbo]

I hear you Brian, my jokes about eyepiece choices come from spending too much time Googling the pro's and cons, it's starting to drive me a bit batty!. On the other hand, last night I saw Jupiter and the faintest flicker of Callisto, and what I believe was Neptune through a rifle scope. For me that's a bit like hearing Louis Armstrong wafting through the window from a club down the street ... gotta get more of that.

[Brian W]

Through a rifle scope takes one right back to one of the driving forces of telescope development... the need for captains of war ships to see the enemy first.

As for sorting out the best ep collection for your needs... I wish you luck!
B.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Just looking at the specifications for the Sky Watcher 200mm dobsonian, solid tube (SW680)...

Focal length is 1200mm. Is that decent? Some other 8" telescopes have it more? Would more be any better?

Eyepieces listed are: S20, S10(31.7mm). What the hell does this mean? And are these decent eyepiece sizes to start off with?

Focal ratio is "f/6". I have no idea what this means?

Finderscope is 9 x 50. What?

Barrel diameter is 50mm/31.7mm. What?

Also, would this dobsonian telescope easily connect to an equatorial mount if I buy one later?

Yes, I'm definately a beginner ;) Any help guys?

[Colin_Fraser]

I don't know about that model but Andrews have a 10" Skywatcher on an EQ6PRO mount

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Jowel,

Hmmm, looks like those answers require my services again, please see below;



Also, dont get too hung up on the details and worry that this 8" scope may not be the BEST one you can get now. There is ALWAYS going to be a better scope or a different scope which you will understand later is referred to as "scope envy" and this manifests itself in you also as "aperture fever" which means you are always on the lookout for a larger and larger scope.

The main reason that the 8" dobsonian has been recommended so highly to you is that its is REALLY easy to use for a beginner. The Skywatcher brand is great quality and value for money. Also, as explained, it is doubly good to be able to upgrade this to mount it on an EQ mount later.

Dont sweat it, you'll be fine.

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Mate, once again thanx for your wonderful advice!

[Screwdriverone]

Always a pleasure to be of service....;)

Cheers

Chris

[LeeSMaz]

So, I'm a beginner too..
I settled for something smaller, a mak127 goto.
Very small, light, easy to use , easy to setup,
seems to get some good views.
The 6" would've been nicer but pricey here in Aus.
A 6" Newt seemed similar in views,
so for pure bucks, an 8" eq mount newt or
as I was told a 8" dob.
But I wanted the goto n something smallish.

So which way did u go?

Cheers.
Lee.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

The other day I visited a telescope store and compared the sizes of an 8 inch and a 10 inch SkyWatcher dobsonian. They both seem to have similar lengths, although the 10 inch is a little more wider/bulky. That aperature for the 10 inch looks really inviting. I guess it would bring in twice as much light at an 8 inch? That would be amazing!

I'd say that in terms of length both scopes are similar in the area needed in a car to move them around. Also, the weight is similar. 8 inch has 20kg, whilst 10 inch is 25 kg. Interesting. Would there be much of a difference in the effort required to move around a 10 inch compared to an 8 inch? Perhaps not much if you had a good little trolley? The main requirement may be the heavy lifting.

The main difference is price. 10 inch seems to be 200-300 buck more in price. Maybe I should consider saving up more dosh going for it???

I notice that on a 10 inch the focal length (1200) is the same as on an 8 inch. Is that bad or good?

[Brian W]

Hi Jowel, just coming in with my 2 centavos, the 8 brings in 64 sq. in. the 10 brings in 100 sq. in.. Certainly a noticeable difference but is it worth the extra money? your choice.

The f/l of @ 1200 is pretty much the standard for the 8 / 10.

Now here comes my 2 centavos worth... I own an 8" LB and I am very happy with the performance. I would undoubtedly be just as happy with the 10 or a 12.5 or an 18 but I have the 8 and I am happy.

Unless you are one of the very few who hit upon just the right scope for their niche first time, you are going to buy another scope down the road. So I would suggest to you that the 8 is a great place to start but then again so would be the 10.
Brian

[mbo]

The 10" gathers about 56% more light than the 8", I think you are correct about their portability being fairly similar, though that depends a lot on the individual lifting the scope, will the salesman let you test lift them in the shop :). If the price per square inch seems fair, and you are happy to pay extra for it, it's probably a good idea to go for the 10".
The differences in focal length won't mean a lot in practice (at least to most people) The 8" would be f6 and the 10" f5. This means that for any given eyepiece the magnification would be a bit higher on the 8" scope, but the brightness would be lower. The scopes probably come with eyepieces to match their focal lengths.

[Stu Ward]

Apologies if i have this wrong, but the magnification from the eyepieces on both scopes will be the same, as :

Magnification = Focal Length / eyepiece (mm)
As they both have a Focal Length of 1200mm Mag remains the same

The speed will be different (F Ratio)

As the 8" has a 200mm mirror 1200/200 = F6
The 10" has a 250mm mirror 1200/250 = F5


Stuart

[Screwdriverone]

Yep, that's right Stu,

Both 1200mm FL scopes would have the same magnification factor on any given eyepiece. The F5 MAY be brighter than the F6 but it would be hard to pick at the eyepiece.

Cheers

Chris

[mbo]

Woops your right, I crossed that up. Sorry for the confusion.
I have been doing numbers for a 10" f5 vs. a 12" f5 lately and my brain cross-wired the results.:sadeyes:

[Suzy]

Brian has hit the nail on the head here. Well said. :thumbsup:

Go the 10" dob Jowel! The 10" should keep you happier for longer!

Though having said that, whether you have a 6" (which I used to have), 8", or 10", you won't be disappointed, you will see plenty. A few people that I know of on here upgraded from 8" to 10". I upgraded from 6" to 10" within 6 months. An example in the difference going up to 10" would be say, the Jewel box cluster. The gold star in it is much more noticeable in the 10". I was nearly going to go for an 8", and I very much wanted to see the colour in this star (as I could barely make it out in 6"). When I viewed thru a 10" it was in your face there bright as can be. So next was to see what it was like through an 8". Liz did me a favour at one of her club get togethers. Side by side her old 8" dob she sold and her current 10". She reported back to me there was a big difference in the colour of this star, and told me I should go for the 10". And so this is the scope that will be with me for a long time (I have maxed out weight, size and bulk, for me to handle).:lol:

Jowel, I put wheels on my 10" dob. Four wheels attached to a base under the base of the stand. I pull the dob along using the tension handle on the stand. I have two large wheels and two smaller castor wheels which are lockable. Way easier than having to get the trolley out and loading the scope up on it everytime I wanted to change my viewing spot in the yard.

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day dudes. Interesting advice!

I was just wondering, comparing a 10 inch to an 8 inch, would there be a need for any other accessories for a 10 inch on top of the ones I've already identified I'd need for an 8 inch? For instance, does the mirror in a 10 inch fog up more than an 8 inch? Would I need a fan or something? Any other tips?

[Screwdriverone]

No, the only difference is the size and the weight really..

Cheers

Chris

[Mountain_Wanderer]

G'day yet again.

Just been thinking of possibly choosing a SkyWatcher black diamond 10 inch collapsible dobsonian. The main drawcard is that the long lenth, which I think is about 1.2-1.3m can be shrunk down considerably for transport and storage.

Does anyone have one of these? Can you tell me how long it is when it's open and also when its closed? Would be great to know how small it can get? I also notice that the highest practical power (508x) is less than the solid tube version (600x), and the focal ratio (F/4.7) is also less than the solid tube version (F/5). Is there are reason for this? Also, does this SkyWatcher collapsible dob come in a standard, non-black diamond version? Or is "black diamond" the code word for collapsible? i.e. are there different types of SkyWatcher collapsibles or is there just one model?

Ofcourse, the main drawback is that I can't attach it to an equatorial mount later in life for astrophotography. It's quite a big decision to make here - do I stick purely with observational astronomy, or do I allow also for astrophotography? As I see it, observational astronomy is astronomy in its purest form, the way it's been done for thousands of years where you see and wonder at the marvels in the sky. Whilst astrophotography, if you get into it, may actually corrupt the observational experience. i.e. astrophotography would take focus away from the experience of observing, and instead focus yourself on getting a good photo and fiddling much more with your equipment. Is that sort of correct? Would be good to hear from people on each side of this question.

Thanks

[astro744]

You will notice more coma in an f5 or lower ratio Newtonian than in an f6 system although it is still present in all. Most users can live with the coma at f6 but most users use a Paracorr at f4.5 to f5. f5 is the fence where some users fall one way and others the other with regards to whether the coma is objectionable or not. An f5 system too requires better corrected eyepieces than an f6 system although the difference is more noticeable from say f5 to f8.

With regards to better corrected eyepieces even Tele Vue (highly corrected and tested to f4) will show coma as it is a function of the primary mirror not the eyepiece. What they wont show is astigmatism which poorly corrected eyepieces are masters of. In fact seeing coma alone with no astigmatism is almost pleasing (until you put in a Paracorr and stars are pinpoint to the edge!).

[Mountain_Wanderer]

Thanks. Interesting stuff about coma. Would F/4.7 be acceptable? Providing the mirrors are quality (which I gather they are), and the scope is well collimated (which I'll have to check and make correct every time I use the scope), then is it fair to say that F/4.7 is something you can get away with, without the need for additional devices? From the reviews I've read, the 10 inch skywatcher collapsible dob is well regarded.

[sasup]

I have the 12" LB with a argo and have ordered to servo cat to add to the argo and I feel this is a great scope to learn on. It has good power and a solid base to start from. It can start to have some complication, that I feel adds to the experience. My humble opinion.

[Andy Walters]

Hi Jowel. the scope on my buggy fits in my car! a friend sent me the photo of the 10" on an eq6.
Go to a club night first, it will stop your head going round and round!
Andy.:)

[Bern]

Hi Jowel,

I too had difficulty choosing between the 8" and 10" SW collapsible. I overcame this by upping the stakes to the 12" SW collapsible (F5 too), but this morning I awoke to the beckoning of a 14" SW collapsible, so hang it all, I've now settled on a 16" SW collapsible. Fortunately, I don't think they come in any bigger sizes. Hope this helps.
Bern