Please help with constellations

[Paduan]

Hi my name is Brett i am new to astronomy but have had an interest for a long time, now am finally doing something about it. i may have this in the wrong forum but here goes. i am trying to learn the constellations by lightly drawing pencil lines in my star atlas like a join the dots. my beef is that the basic 12 signs of the zodiac have been around for thousands of years yet no two websites can agree on how the stars are arranged i am having problems with Sagittarius in particular but it is not the only one is there any where i can get the real arrangement or is it a little hit and miss like Chinese whispers. Wikipedia shows three variations alone
Cheers

[M54]

Hi Brett,

:welcome: to IIS.

Yes, I know what you mean about the constellations. They seem to be different in every star chart or atlas. I presume that over the centuries they have been interpreted and drawn up by different people and just visualised a bit differently. I think you'll find though that each different interpretation includes all the same stars, just joined up a little differently.
I just try to learn the stars belonging to each constellation and not worry about wether they are joined the same way.

Someone else might know a little more about this, hopefully they'll pipe in.

Ask any questions you like, no matter how dumb you think the question is, there's lots of friendly and knowledgable people (I'm not one of the knowledgable ones:P) around here.

:thumbsup:

[Liz]

:welcome: Brett. Yes, constellations can be tricky, and you will never know every single one, but as long as you know where a few of the main ones are.
Some shapes are easier than others, thank goodness - Crux and Cenataurus are easy, but many others in the south can be trickier, but all you need is a good star chart. Stand there looking up at the constellation, then to your chart (with red torch), then neighbouring bright stars. It all takes time, so try not to worry.
Sagittarius is also tricky, and I still have trouble with it after > 20 years observing. :) You know that it is there after the easy to recognize Scorpius, but, apart from the little teapot area, rest is trickier.
Doesnt matter that different star charts have different joining of the dot to dots. The main brighter stars are the same, and are what you try and find on a star chart.
I used to go outside and jot the stars on some paper, then go inside and try and see which area I was observing and match the stars, and it worked.
Time and patience = recognition finally, of some of the brighter stars, then finally a couple of constellations. ;)

[Suzy]

Hi Brett! :welcome: to our very helpful community. I hope you enjoy and learn lots from your stay with us. :)



Phew, that's re-assuring. I have troubles with Sagittarius too :confuse3: and I thought I was a bit stooopid.:stupid: When I first spotted this constellation this winter, my reaction was :confused2:, and still gets me :confused2: Then, you see a different map and you're even more :confused2:. I still don't see how they get that tea pot out of that thing as much as I've scratched my head over it.:confuse3:

Liz, I really like your idea of jotting down the stars, I'm going to be using it from now on when I come across objects that aren't on my list to find. Will save me a lot of time re-hunting & finding out the object info. :D Don't know why I didn't think of this before :screwy:

[astroron]

I still don't see how they get that tea pot out of that thing as much as I've scratched my head over it.http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/confused06.gif
Suzy, I thought with your brilliant imagination you would have no problem with seeing the Tea Pot;)

[Paduan]

thanks for welcoming me. i am glad to know that i am not the only one to have problems. i guess that i will just have to persist, and i can see the teapot but there are some points of light missing. a better question should be why is the great sagittarius reduced in modern times to a teapot?

[Blue Skies]

I thought the Teapot was an easy shape...and we use it because it stands out well in light polluted skies. Kids usually pick it up pretty easily once its pointed out.

I have never seen a definitive document on constellation shapes - while there are some commonalities, I've seen lots of variations for some of them, including Scorpius.

The only thing to do, really, is to consider the different versions you've seen and draw the one that makes sense to you. The purpose of learning them (to me) is to make it more expedient to locate objects and/or find your direction in the sky. So you want patterns that you can recall and bring some kind of memory recall to you when you're out there looking.

Anyone can make up an asterism, so feel free to make your own patterns within the patterns if that helps you. But just remember other people may not know what you're talking about!

I agree with the "don't learn every one" sentiment, its not necessary. If you know the bright ones, the 'sign post' constellations that will guide you on to the fainter ones, then you've done alright.

[Paduan]

thanks again for the advice, i am only interested in learning the 12 major ones to start with as they come up in R.A. i am hoping the others will fall into place over the next few years. i was astounded that there were so many varied ideas. i have decided to go with the pictures in the front of the star atlas as that is the reference i will be using
Cheers Brett

[astrojase]

make sure the maps/charts you refer to are for the correct epoch

things move around a bit up there!

[erick]

Teapot? Easy-peasy!

See http://www.spacetelescope.org/static/archives/images/screen/heic0305c.jpg Look at the "steam" coming out of the teapot's spout!

Actually, I prefer this fellow reduced to a teapot! :D
http://www.beyondpluto.net/Astral_Tarot/sagittarius.gif

[erick]

Yep, when I started, I made up a lop-sided upside down (well, at this time of year :D) chevron in Carina/Vela. Worked well, and still does, to help me locate Eta Carina, NGC 2808, x Vela, in this area. This asterism stands out well, to me, in brighter city skies.

[Suzy]

Erick, thanks so much for those links.:thumbsup:
Up until you posted these links I was trying to work out how to search for it. I see the tea pot now - very clearly. So much easier than trying to work out the shape of the Centaur. I use the box shape on the left (which I know now to be the handle) to find things from.

Also, Erick, I see you use the same technique as I do to find Carina :D :thumbsup:

Ron, it seems I needed a better imagination :lol:

Jacqui, yes you're right, it's very easy once shown. I've had no one to ask that knows up until now :)

Panduan, you asked a very good question by the way. :thumbsup:

[Paduan]

thanks heaps for all the help and the links it is really a comfort to know that there is a great depth of knowledge and help to beginners.

[okiscopey]

Yes, exactly! A friend of mine is learning the constellations much faster than I am by using her own imagery. Some examples:

Bootes ... the ghost
Capricornus ... the hang-glider
Pisces ... the balloon on a string
Ophiuchus ... the fat pencil

This is probably the reason why I don't take her along to any astro society meetings!

[Liz]

:lol::lol: not bad though.

[astroron]

:gday:Some quite imaginatve constellations there:lol::lol:

[NebraskaSky]

I think Sagittarius looks more like a tea cup. If you look at it upside-down it kind of looks like a mug with a handle, or 2 handles :P

[astro744]

Just remember there are no lines in the sky. If you really want zodiac objects have a look at Stellarium and turn ON constellation art and/or constellation lines. Also have a look at Starlore under Sky and Viewing Options in Stellarium for info for other cultures.

[Jen]

:hi: hey Gday Brett welcome to IIS

Good luck with your constellations download a good star map and concentrate on just one or two at a time each night instead of just trying to find them all in one night and everything just ends up being one big messy star fest up there hahaha..... well that was my theory anyway till i learnt how to find them all :lol::lol: Worked for me ;):D
Cheers :thumbsup:

[Screwdriverone]

Hmmm, all very creative!!

How about using a simple planisphere? $20 and it shows all the constellations as well as the ecliptic where the zodiac ones are!

That's what I did, used the planisphere, dialled up what date and time it was and then looked at it, looked up at the sky, looked at it etc....took no time at all.

Now I can even remember some of the main brighter stars by name and which constellation they belong to (such as Arcturus in Bootes and Altair in Aquila etc) simply by sight.

I think this was because I sat there one or more nights and looked up, tried to see which constellation was where and soon enough the divisions between each area started to become clear.

Take some time Brett, buy a large planisphere from a telescope shop or from Australian Geographic for about $20 and become familiar with whats up there. Certainly helps later on when star hopping or selecting brighter stars for when you get your goto scope.

Have fun, let go of your feelings Paduan......;)

Cheers

Chris

[Robh]

I agree with Chris, a planisphere is an invaluable tool for the beginner.
Australian Sky and Telescope sell a Star Disc with artwork by Wil Tirion for $14.95. Add postage.
http://www.austskyandtel.com.au/BooksProducts/tabid/643/language/en-US/Default.aspx

Regards, Rob.

[Paduan]

Hi and thanks the problem is that i own three planispheres and a star atlas and i have recently downloaded and wasted oodles of time on stellarium as well as the internet yet still am no closer to the answer to the original problem "how come the constellations lines are not definitive" i have taken the advice given to me and found the easiest way to remember them even if it is not the "correct" way

[astro744]

As far as astronomers are concerned there is no need for any constellation lines as there are no lines in the sky. The lines on some charts are merely joined dots that different cultures around the world see differently and it's not as simple as expecting say the western world to standardise. Look at the Big Dipper aka plough aka Great Bear aka horse carriage aka saucepan (and others) for example. If you are trying to learn the sky, think triangles and star hop; the sky will eventually become familiar to you. (Or just make up your own symbols). Sagittarius will always be the teapot and Orion the Hunter will always be the saucepan.

Note too the Zodiac is upsidedown from the southern hemisphere unless you face south and tilt your head over backwards, just look at Leo the Lion.

I actually prefer charts without lines as I feel the lines just get in the way and you will find any reputable chart does not show the lines at all.