Help me spend some $$$!

[MuntiNZ]

Hey all tomorow I am out of NZ and back home to my old job in the mine and that means I will finally have cash for astro toys after starving in NZ on Kiwi wages!!
1st I want to buy a big new mount to go with my Tak EM-11.
What I am looking at is the Paramount of course and also the Astrophysics AP1200 but I am also pretty keen on these new mounts that dont have gears or PE.
There are a few about now -- the Astelco model is hot!!! But its lotsa $$$!!!!
So I am looking at these Austrian Asa mounts like there DDM-85 which is so flash it makes me giddy.
Have anyone here got these or played with them or even read about them?
Info is a bit sparse! So I emailed them and they seem good apart from some dodgy english -- foreigners ay!
Probably I will set up a remote obsy and I know most of ya go for the Paramount but there's some Spaniards and krauts who swear by the Asa for remote work and they get ripper pics with no guiding! :eyepop:
Now tell me what to blow my cash on OK guys!!!
:lol:

[MuntiNZ]

Man no body wants to spend my cash for me?!! :lol:
Only one PM from a Paramount owners telling me to steer away from Asa and get a Paramount so one vote for the Paramount so far!!
Any body here got a AP 1200 who wants to tell me why I should get one of those?
Looks like no one around these parts has the Asa so I will keep haunting the OS message boards.

[Bassnut]

Its the appaling ASA support that puts ppl off, despite how good there mounts "might" be. Ive seen horror stories.. The no-need for guiding is questionable, as mentioned in detail here before.

Id say Paramount, its a stable, well supported mount that has acres of software made for it, it just works. The AP1200 is also good.

Youd have to be very carefull before considering the new fancy gear appearing lately, look for lots of user feedback before even thinking about it.

[gregbradley]

I agree with Fred. You'd be taking quite a risk with some of the newer players. If you look through the ASA Yahoo Group you will see owners of the smaller mount (not the larger DDM85) were having problems with it.

I myself hate being a beta tester for a manufacturer. So proven and tested with a track history of happy customers is pretty important when deciding.

Also reliable delivery times is also important.

I went through this myself when deciding between a Planewave CDK and an Orion Optics UK similar scope. I was told 4.5 month lead time from Orion Optics yet there was a guy who waited 2 years and when he got it it had a defect! Another was told by March and he still didn't have it although he did opt for an upgrade midorder. But still.

Planewave also have mounts but they are geared I think. They are more a competitor for Paramount ME and AP3600 with larger payload capacity than the Paramount.

I'd go Paramount myself. Let someone else sort out the bugs of the new gear.

As far as an AP1200 is concerned, I could be wrong, but I don't think it will do internet remote control.
In fact I am not aware of any other mount than the Paramount that does full remote internet control.

What are you planning to mount on it? Something large?

Greg.

[Zaps]

It seems the people now purchasing 'tried and true' mounts such as the AP 1200 and PME owe a big debt of gratitude to those who were willing to take the risk of buying from Astro-Physics and Software Bisque back when those companies were starting out.

MuntiNZ, in my opinion gearless and PE-less direct drive systems are without a doubt the future of telescope mount technology for both the amateur and the professional astronomer.

[Bassnut]

Gratitude?, you bet, Im very greatfull ;-).

Willing to buy when they 1st start out?, well, ummm, no, I cant afford to take a risk and be a guinea pig, especially at the prices they expect early adopters will pay .

At this end of the market, with expensive, low volume, market leading technology, the path is strewn with total failures. All it takes is for one small critical design fault to at least render the price paid far too high, and indeed can render the product useless, or no better than what came before.

Then an un-upgradable new version appears that makes it magic, and the early adopters are left in the dust.

Thats why a support track record is critical. A small bug in a driver for instance, or no support in 3rd party apps that takes months or years for them to bother to supply/fix can cause endless grief and loss of valuable imaging time (given youve sold your old gear).

I agree, gearless direct drive is the future, absolutely, but thats not the point, the point is does it actually work on the night, and if it doesnt, how long will it take to fix ;-).

[Zaps]

The good news is that some people were courageous enough to take a risk with a startup like Software Bisque and allowed the company to prosper. Imagine if everyone had sat back on their hands and said "No way, nyuh-uh, too risky!" when SB were developing the PME.

[gregbradley]

You make a good point but I think there is a difference. Software Bisque and similar got it right at the outset.

Not so with ASA. They put out a very expensive 12 inch corrected Newt for years that had a defective focuser, that had a defective mirror mount, that had flex in the tube, that had at least one example of pinched optics. People were doing "fixes" of the focuser. They brought out their own focuser and there was a buyer of a very expensive scope (I am talking over $20,000 here) with a focuser that you could rock with your hand and there was a video of them doing just that. That's like buying a Mercedes car and the steering wheel is loose and can't be used.

So that is their track record on scopes.

When the defective scope was sent back the owner had to wait some time to get his refund.

So are you suggesting doing business with a company with that sort of track record of quality control and customer service? That is quite different from supporting cutting edge technology. A 12 inch corrected Newt was not cutting edge technology.

So if you do go down that path and want cutting edge technology then the thing to do would be to differentiate between the companies that will give excellent service and rapid response and have quality control in at a high level versus those who are having difficulties with the basics of running a successful business and will run you around. That is true principle in running any type of business you constantly evaluate the performance of suppliers etc.

That is one thing I like about the internet, you can find out reviews of various products before you buy. Not like the old days where you took a punt.

I guess most people on this site have bought an astro product at some point that was bugged and felt they were deceived and ripped off. It is a small industry and not every player plays it ethically. "Buyer beware" is still alive.


Greg.

[Zaps]

That's kind of disingenuous. The question was "is it worth taking a risk on ASA's new direct drive technology mounts". You can say "Oh, I heard they had terrible problems with their Newts a few years back, so I'm not going near their mounts", but that seems kind of silly to me. Research is your friend.

From everything I'm reading and hearing, the mounts are mechanically and electrically excellent, while the last couple of software revisions have ironed-out (m)any persistent bugs. The people who own and use the DDM mounts are full of praise.

As for the support issues, it seems they've been exaggerated mainly on the basis that ASA reps are not hanging out in the Yahoo! Group and answering questions there. But if you email or call ASA directly they provide good support. That's according to folk who own and use these mounts.

One thing that needs to be remembered is that even now the "mature and dependable" PME is not without its own issues. That's to be expected in a complex piece of high tech equipment which is required to perform in demanding situations. Nothing is perfect, right?

It seems to me that some people are basing their negative opinions of the new ASA mounts on little more than gossip. And it is a fact that most of the people knocking the new ASA mounts are PME or AP-1200 owners. ;)

[Bassnut]

Thats the point, its not the mount, its the history ASA has in supporting product and problems with them generally.



Well there you go, *now* they are getting it right, but what about the early buyers, I read some fairly bad reviews early on, many were sent back, dealers deserting them etc.



Well, thats changed too then, good on them.



No issues Im aware of, just on my own experience anyway. They seem to be alright in 24/7 remote commercial installations too, with next to no trouble, they have plenty of history there. Itll be interesting to see how the ASA mounts go in commercial installations.



Well thats pretty logical ;), they are the ones that bought them after dismissing ASAs. If they had selected ASA as better instead, then they wouldnt be PME/AP owners and wouldnt be knocking ASA (assuming they werent early buyers or/and had no trouble) :).

Anyway, they "appear" to be getting their shiet together now, but I can assure you, there were many non-public dramas going on in the background with ASA support that were absolute shockers for years, not just gossip.

[Zaps]

Well I certainly can't argue that point as I have no knowledge of how ASA may have supported their product in the past, but speaking with ASA product buyers now suggests that ASA are no worse than anybody else.



I read that story too as it was being posted all over the intarwebz, then I read ASA's very belated response. Putting it charitably, those making the claims weren't entirely forthright. The whole sorry story can be found on the ASA Yahoo! Group, but suffice to say ASA was vindicated.



The messages on SB's PME forum tends to surprise newbies, since we've all come to believe the Paramount ME is virtually perfect, when it isn't: nothing is. But of course SB is constantly working on improvements and mods for issues as they arise and do have an excellent reputation in that area.

It appears that there are several DDM mounts in use with universities and govt research outfits, but the websites are always frustratingly light on details. Quite a high percentage of non-Academic DDM owners are using their mounts in remote setups without any problems. Time will tell as more of these mounts get out there in use.

Regarding the anti-ASA sentiment voiced by PME and AP-1200 owners, my guess is that most of them bought their mounts before ASA's DDM models became available, so they no longer have the latest and greatest. Since most (or even all) of those critics have never actually used or seen an ASA DDM mount, they must be basing their criticism upon the complaints of other PME and AP-1200 owners who have never used or seen an ASA DDM mount... ;)

One of the reasons I'm defending these mounts from what I view as mostly baseless criticism is because it's time to move on from gear-based systems, and so I wish to see DDM mounts from any company get a fair shake. If those direct drive mounts fail to shape up, so be it, and I'll bide my time. But it would be disappointing if we were deprived of a better system just because those who have invested financially and emotionally in an inferior type were able to keep it from being accepted.

Anyhoo, out with the old, in with the new! :thumbsup:

[gregbradley]

I agree with you about its good to support new advances and we get direct drive which does sound excellent. But tell that to those who had rough experiences with that company that they should buy another of their products and see what sort of response you get.

Its really two issues here - supporting new technology so we all benefit and secondly which company is good to deal with and who isn't.

Its a matter of how much risk are willing to take on an equipment decision?

I myself after having been burnt really only once, have a firm policy. Doesn't make it right - just appropriate given my experience. It is an unpleasant experience when you make a poor choice however if we never took any risks and reached out life would be pretty boring.

A question; these direct drive mounts still accept autoguiding don't they?

Greg.

[renormalised]

Yes, they do, Greg. All the ones I know of have dedicated autoguiding ports. For the amount of money you pay for them you'd expect them to, anyway.

MuntiNZ, you could try one of these...Chronosmount (http://www.chronosmount.com/). They got good reviews and seem to be reliable.

[Zaps]

The Chronos mounts are interesting but still gear driven. The main benefits they offer are the removal of the need for counterweights and meridian-flipping. If they were direct-drive systems, they'd be darn near perfect! ;)

[renormalised]

Well, we better suggest to the guys that make them to have a go at designing a direct drive mount...then we'll have nirvana:)

[rally]

Carl,

The Chronos mounts are a torque rated mount - not a mass rated mount like a GEM.

You would be surprised just how big the Chronos mount you actually need has to be if your OTA is heavy or larger in diameter.

Its not a simple exercise to calculate this out for sophisticated astrophotography rig.

It quite quickly indicates the cost benefit of a Paramount ME !!!

Having said that it is possible to use counterweights on a Chronos according to them, but I am not sure that it will work too well.

The mount and its mechanics are obviously very important, but dont underestimate the importance of a mount to work with all your software and integrate itself into all the capability that is offered by the software.

BTW If you have a problem with a MKS3000 board on your P-ME there is no factory circuit board repair option - you have to upgrade the whole system to MKS4000 - an exercise that costs as much as an EQ6 !
But at least it can be done.

Cheers

Rally

[MuntiNZ]

Hey!
Well I have been doing lots of thinking and ringing up lots of people!
My mum is going to croak when she sees the phone bill! :lol:
I told her I was gonna call suppliers and stuff but I musta forgot the bit where they were overseas!!!
Never mind I am moving out to the work town soon so she can come and slap me out there.
So any how I have narrowed the choice down and then down again.
The first was the Takahashi EM-500 because its a Tak and I love Taks. My EM-11 is so great I will never part with it.
The Tak is not cheap but it sounds like it will be better made even than my EM-11 and I swear my EM-11 was made specially for me and not come from a factory. They are ace.
But to do remote obs I will have to get into nerd stuff like remote control software on a PC in the obs and it sounds dicey to me because I hate computers and am a spanner not a geek.
This is pretty sad because the Tak is awesome and I would be keen to stick with the brand. But maybe not the Tak.
Next is the Astrophysics 1200GTO. Awesome again but I have never seen any AP mount and I cant find any one in Aus with one to show me it. The seps I talked to on line reckon its totally the bomb and it seems pretty great from all I can see and what I read.
But its like the Tak I will need to run all sort of computery stuff to operate the mount in a remote obs so I decided probably not a 1200GTO then.
That brung me to the narrowed down choice!
First of all is the Paramount ME and I am gonna go see one next week. Yeah these are killer and sposed to be tops for remote stuff with NO nerdy crap so Im pretty keen. Every one knows about these so I dont have to tell you guys. This is a front runner.
The only fly in my soup is its not a directly driven mount it still has gears. When I talked to the guys that make it they said no to direct driving and they would not do it themselves ever. Funny that it is what the Astrophysics crowd said about direct drive to and that it was just a craze or some thing.
This worrys me because every thing is always moving forward in our game and the stuff that doesnt go forward gets left behind I reckon. But the Paramont is still awesome and I will see what I think when I go play with one!!! :D
Now whats left? Its that Austrain ASA Ddm mount the DDM85. All of the people saying steer clear worried me and I heard all kinds of storys about how bad they was. But I had to take a better look just in case right?
So I emailed the company and they shot write back and were pretty good with my questions even the really dumb ones!
So then I gave them a ring and talked for a bit. It wasnt that easy because of the language part but still they were no worse than the bloke down at the kebab place near my mums house and he always gets the order right. Any how they tell a blardy good story I have to say.
Then I emailed some guys on line I was talking to once before in Spain and Germany and places and they told me pretty great things about there DDMS.
Plus these are the new way with no gears. Thats the big selling point I think for me.
Here is how I look at it --- my job pays good and I have no wife or kids and stuff and its hard to spend money out there anyhow. My new mount will be payed off fast and if I make the wrong choice to be honest it wont really matter if you know what I mean. I can by the other one I should have got in the first place and use it in the obs and stick the wrong one in my bed room like a art display because they all look dam good!!! :lol:
So right now the choice is the Paramount Me or the ASA DDM. It will be a hard hard choice!!! ( Plus I really would love a big Tak! May be I will by one any way later if KRudd doesnt shut the mines down )
You guys wish me luck and I will tell you how it turns out later!

[MuntiNZ]

ASA DDM-85!

:D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Bassnut]

wow Daz, your a brave man, congratulations. As I said before, I agree direct drive is the way of the future, and if the DDM-85 works as advertised, you have yourself a cutting edge, awesome mount for sure.

Ill be very interested to see how you go with it.

[Visionoz]

Hey Daz

I just read about this DDM85 at another forum and the bloke had bad/good experiences but came out good results overall - read it here (http://www.myastrospace.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3612)

HTH
Cheers
Bill