DSE 114 newtonian

[mistyspook]

G'day I'm in Sth Tas and picked up a new cheap DSE 114mm newtonian which I have just begun to use and am having problems working out how to use it properly. It came with the following lenses, super plossl 6mm, 10mm, 30mm, 2x barlow and 1.5 x erecting eye piece. I've given up using the line up scope as it just doesn't work.

I first tried looking at a star, but no matter what I used only the 30mm would work and it showed a fuzzy blob, using anything else was just a blur. So I looked at Venus in the early morning and could get a nice round blob with the 30mm but nothing else. When I attached the 1.5 erecting piece with the 30mm I could see what appeared to be craters and lines, but the centre of the view was filled with what looked like the frame of the viewing mirror. The next morning I tried to look at the moon but sadly it clouded over and it's been that way for the last few nights.

The last time I had a go at astronomy was as a kid back in the 1950's with a pair of binoculars I borrowed and have always had a keen interest in astronomy and cosmology. So can someone direct me to a thread where I can work out how to get the best out of my scope and lenses. Then I can decide whether I want to spend a bit more, I'm a pensioner so don't have a lot of cash to splash around. Thanks:hi:

[renormalised]

Hi Alga, welcome to IIS:)

The problem with your scope is that it is cheap. Those scopes that places like DSE and the dept' stores sell aren't worth the money you pay for them. The mirrors are rubbish and will not focus properly for the most part, unless you get a really good one. Those craters and lines you saw of Venus were probably defects in the mirror and internal reflections off the secondary mirror vanes and such. You can't see craters or "lines" on Venus...the atmosphere is too thick to see its surface:)

Those eyepieces they called "super plossls" were most likely not plossls, but Kellner type eyepieces, and low quality ones at that. On top of everything, the scope was most likely way out of collimation (alignment) which means everything would look out of kilter to begin with, when you looked through any of your eyepieces.

In a good scope of quality optics (both the mirrors and the eyepieces), objects like Venus shouldn't look like "blobs". If anything, Venus should look like it's following the same phases as the Moon, in appearance, and stars should look like crisp points of light. The Moon should look crisp and well defined.

No, the old maxim with scopes and equipment is to avoid those "dept store" scope like the plague. They're a waste of time. You would be better off buying a good pair of binoculars, or saving up (being a pensioner) and buying yourself a good scope. If you saved up for a month or so, you could get a scope like this one...a Sky Watcher 8" dobsonian reflector from Andrews Communications (http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm), for $499. That would be a far better and more appropriate scope for your needs and you would see far, far more with it than with the one you've got (even if that scope did work properly). You could even pick a good scope up cheaper than that 2nd hand on the IIS classifieds. You could also try Bintel (https://www.bintelshop.com.au/welcome.htm) too. They have a good range of telescopes and many which woulds suit your needs. You could even look through their binoculars and see what you'd like. You can get tripods and adapters to attach binoculars to them so you can even try out something like that.

Another thing...join an astronomy club/society and go to some of their meetings. You'll learn a great deal off the members and get the chance to look through their scopes. You may even get the chance to look through some monster scopes, if any of the members have one. Seeing Jupiter through a scope that's 30" or larger is something you'll never forget!!!.

If you decide to save some money and get yourself a decent scope or a good pair of binoculars, you will not regret it and you will have far more fun with your equipment than you'll ever have with that scope you have. Scopes like the one you have now is why so many people lose interest in astronomy as a hobby. They're disappointing in the extreme and for the most part never work, no matter what you do with and/or to them.

About the only thing they're good for is rip out the optics, cut the tube in half down its length, fill it with potting mix and grow some herbs in them!!!:)

[astro744]

Welcome!

Venus is visible after sunset at the moment although it can be also spotted in the daytime. You said you saw Venus in the early morning, so unless it was after sunrise your were probably looking at something else, perhaps Jupiter.

Try and focus on something in the distance on the horizon first with the 30mm eyepiece and then the shorter ones and if you can achieve focus you should be able to get the Moon and planets too at night time. Saturn is well placed at the moment in the evening.

Depending on the design of your telescope you may have to have the erecting prism in all the time to achieve focus otherwise a short extension tube may be needed.

[mental4astro]

Hi Mistyspook, :welcome: to IIS,

Your 114 is most likely the most common good, cheap beginners scope. For all the short comings as an inexpensive instrument, it will still be capable of giving good use.

I'd suggest you set up the scope during daytime, best somewhere where you have some view to distant things. You can then aim the scope to these things without worring about Earth's rotation moving them out of view.

First use your '30mm' eyepiece, and ruck the draw tube in and out until focus is achieved. My concern with the "blobs" you describe is that their might be some issue with the accuracy of the scope's mirror. However, you will need to tell us in which position of the focuser are these "blobs" the smallest- is the draw tube rucked out all the way, or in all the way.

If the scope cannot achieve focus on these distant targets, then there is a problem with the instrument. It should focus on these distant daytime targets.

Venus does not show any surface features as it is covered with thick impenetrable cloud. And it is difficult for most amateur sized instruments to show any details in the cloud cover too. What you saw were anomalies withing the scopes optics.

Say that you are able to achieve focus on these distant daytime targets, next is to try the scope with the stars and Moon. The Moon is the easiest as it is so big and bright. It Moon is just past its full phase, so it will show few craters. It will show the dark and light features known as its 'seas' and 'oceans'. Smaller phases of the Moon will better show its craters, and be less painfully bright to look at.

The equatorial mount your scope comes with is really of a low standard. It is useable, but you may have already noticed that a little bump of the scope will set it off on a long and annoying 'bouncing fit'. Not too much can be done about this other than developing a soft touch.

The other thing that can be done, and is inexpensive, is to make a new mount for it. I've done this for a school's 114 telescope that was sitting unused because its equatorial mount frieghtened the school's staff. The pictures below show the cheap mount I made for it, making the scope much more user friendly, with a very small vibration period when it is bumped. The link I've included takes you to the IIS thread I started on the making of this mount:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49203

Don't worry too much about the quality of your eyepieces for the time being. They will serve you well as you begin to familiarize yourself with the instrument. There is always time to purchase better ones, should you want too.

Renormalised has given you some links to some good telescope retailers, whose business is only telescopes. You might like to look at them.

:welcome: again to IIS,

Mental.

[barx1963]

A few issues here.
Firstly, using the finder (or as you called it the line up scope). Have you aligned it? Best way to do this is take your scope outside in daylight (being careful to NEVER POINT IT ANYWHERE NEAR THE SUN!!!!!). Pick out something prominent and a fair distance away such as a TV aerial, chimney pot, tip of a tree etc. Put in you lowest power eyepiece without the barlow or the erecting EP, point the scope at that object and see if you can find it in the view. Rack the focus in and out to see if you can get focus.
Once that is done, centre one part of the object (I use the top of a neighbours chimney pot) in the field then look in you finder. Odds are it will be way out. There are probably 3 knobs on the finder which have to be adjusted until the object you see in your scope is in the field of the finder. Once that is done, it is now aligned.
Oh and one more thing, the finder will have to be focused, check if there ios a ring that you you turn to do this.

Secondly, in doing the above you will also confirm that you can reach focus, provided the object (aerial, tree whatever) is a fair distance away, say at least 100m. Provided the focuser is notr right at the end of its travel in one direction to reach focus, you should be able to reach focus when viewing at night.
Take your scope out on a reasonably clear night and point it an area with lots of stars. Have a look with the 30mm EP and see if you can get the stars to come to points. Remember, all stars will always appear as points. Provided you can do that, you will get focus. If you can't, the scope has very serious problems and should be taken back!

Thirdly, get the Barlow, the 1.5x and the 6mm, put them in a drawer and forget about them. The Barlow and 1.5x are usually very poor quality and simply put more poor quality glass in the way. The 10mm may be OK for some planets, use it VERY sparingly. The 30mm is the one you should use most.
Odds are the craters and lines are defects from the 1.5x EP.

Fourthly. Did the kit come with any instructions about collimation? If it did follow these. A scope this size doesn't need super precise collimation. I have a 130mm Newt that is pretty much the same if I do a rough alignment as per the instructions that came with it, or do a precise alignment the same as I would use on the 12".

Fifthly, don't get discouraged. Scopes such as these IMHO are not the ideal for a beginner, BUT you will be able to see something. Set yourself some easy targets, such as open clusters. @ of the best are very visible right now, The Jewell Box in Crux (NGC 4755) and the Southern Pleiades (IC 2603) Both are clear even in smallish binoculars. To find the Jewell box locate the Southern Cross, then Beta Crucis the which is the left end of the bar. Scan the area nearby and you wil pick up a small fuzzy patch. Once you examine it closer it consists of a triangle of about 5/6 stars with a nice red one in the middle. Hopefully you may also see some fainter stars grouped in the background.
To find the Southern Pleiades locate the "Diamond Cross" which is a nearly perfect diamond shape of prominent stars to the west of the Crux. Just near the star that id closest to Crux is a faint cluster that will look fantastic in a scope of your size.
Malcolm

[mistyspook]

Thanks for all the useful replies, they reflect my own experience with this. I live on the edge of the southern ocean at about 100 metres elevation with a clear sky in front of me (west), to the east, mountain, south has large trees then the sea and north a bit more sky space. I have a sun room so use a window, there's no lights anywhere except the glow of Hobart to the NW. I decided to get into astronomy a couple of months ago after we spent a calm clear night at sea fishing for tuna, the stars came down to the water all around us and I wished I had a telescope with me. We also get a lot of Aura's down here as well as the green glow which emanates from the Antarctic at times.


I lined it up on a mountain to the west and had lots of trouble getting it to stay still. The line up scope just won't line up with the scope at all, there's no enough adjustment but it does focus so I gave it away and use the method we used in the navy, barrel line of sight.


I understand I couldn't see the surface of Venus, but thought I was looking at it and yes the craters and lines I expect would be defects, although when I bought this at an auction it had only been taken out of the box to have a look at and then sat on the stand and was never used, so it may have dust or anything on the mirror and lenses.


I'll take all your advice and will have a play with the 30mm, but the stars I've looked at have been fuzzy or blurred so I hope to get a look at the moon when the rain and clouds go away, then I will have more of an idea.


I have a set of 20x50 binoculars and a bloke has told me he has a Meade 60AZ-D Refracting Telescope he wants to sell for about $100, so could some one tell me if this would be the way to go for a start.


Thanks again for the help.

[mental4astro]

Hi Mistyspook,

Stick with the 114 for now. It is more than three times the size of the 60mm refractor. This means that it collects more light and can resolve finer details. The 60mm refractor will also suffer from chromatic aberration, which is seen as a rainbow effect around bright objects. The reflector will not suffer from this. It is a better scope all round over the refractor.

[renormalised]

I agree...despite the poor optics of the reflector, it's going to be a lot better than the 60mm...which is an achromatic and as Alexander said, will have chromatic aberration.

[mistyspook]

I got to look at the moon this morning (0530) using the 30mm and it was crystal clear and great, I could see the ridges of craters on the moons horizon and also a lot of detail of the surface. I then tried a few different combinations of the lenses I've got and none worked at all, had to fight to get the image to stay in sight and them it was blurry and wouldn't focus. Tried a star and got it to a pin prick light, but that;s about all as the star just happened to be in my filed of vision when tracking the moon. So I expect it's a long way away. I'll try some planets in the next few nights once I can work them out and see how it goes.

So thanks again and I will persevere with this and the 30mm until I know what I want and can afford it. I can also see I will have to get some equipment that take photos and can connect to my computer. I checked the for sale stuff on the site, but don't have a clue what to choose. So I had better do a lot of reading and learn the jargon and equipment. Anyone know a good linux program for telescopes.:D

[renormalised]

Yes...if you're using KDE as your windows manager you should have KStars by default. It's a good program, and there are plenty of others you can find online as well. Have a look at this site... Astronomy Software (http://www.midnightkite.com/software.html#unix).

If you're looking for a scope for later on, the best scope for a beginner is a 6-8" dob (dobsonian). That's a scope on a type of alt-az (altitude-azimuth) mount. Very easy to handle and in the size I mentioned quite portable. A 6-8" scope will give you plenty of light gathering capability and good resolution on objects. A scope like this will come with either one of two sizes of focuser...1.25" or 2". 1.25" is pretty much the standard size of focuser they fit to scopes, and this will handle the standard 1.25" eyepieces. A 2" focuser will handle 2" eyepieces, but can take the smaller ones with an insert for the smaller eyepieces added to the focuser. Also, the smaller eyepieces are cheaper than the 2" ones. Then you need to consider the size (focal length) of the eyepieces. You will need 2, at least, preferably 4 eyepieces. To give you a good spread of magnification, a set of 5/6mm, 9/10mm, 12mm, 15mm, 20mm, 26mm, 32mm and maybe a 40mm eyepieces would do. And a good x2 barlow thrown in to give some extra mag' choice. You can either buy them separately or in a set...which would be the best way for a beginner on a budget to buy them. Bintel (https://www.bintelshop.com.au/welcome.htm)offer various eyepiece sets in good aluminium cases. Worth looking at. You can also get filters for visual observing that help enhance features of the planets by preferentially allowing different wavelengths of light to be observed. Most of the sets come with filters. One you will need, if the set doesn't have, is a neutral density filter. It polarises the light entering the eyepiece and cuts down on the glare. You'll need one for looking at the moon...in a 6-8" scope, looking at the moon without a filter can be rather startling and painful because it's just too bright. From there on, whatever you add to your equipment collection is bonus.

I needn't remind you of the danger of looking at the Sun through a scope. The only way to safely do that is to stop down the scope (reduce its aperture...with a mask) and use a mylar filter for the size of your scope. But that is if you want to go in that direction.

Hope that has helped

[ZeroID]

Hi Alga, I've got one of these as well. Picked it up for $40 off the local Trademe website cheap because it had no eyepieces. I spent about $160 after getting some advice from the Cloudy Nights forum ( many of whom are on here ) and quite happy with my purchase. I'm a bit of a tinkerer so I've made a few adjustments to the mount and it's axis controls and it sems patrly that poor assembley at the factory probably doesn't help.

I've been able to see Saturn and it's rings and few moons, the moon obviously and starting to search for other things. I need to get out somewhere with less light pollution to really get better views. I've piggy backed a 60mm refractor to the mount rings and added a red dot finder ( clever litttle beastie) and with my range of better eyepieces and a 2 x Barlow I am starting to enjoy cold nights under the stars.

I'm looking at fitting a small webcam to the refractor to take a run of images which I can try to stack and having the two scopes aligned and piggybacked means I can have the 60mm on a widefeild eyepiece and the Newt on a higher magnification. Amateur but fun to try.

Persevere and ask questions, experiment and enjoy. That's what I reckon.:D

[barx1963]

Well done on seeing the moon! It at least shows that the scope is workingm and the fact that stars are pinpoints is excellent news, as I mentioned in my other post that is all you will ever get with stars!
Also as I said, forget all the other eyepieces EXCEPT MAYBE the 10mm. Did you try the moon with that?

[mistyspook]

Thanks, that make me feel a lot better and I will persevere with it and take your advice. I was going to expereinent more last night, but it as tyo cloudy and i have yet to work out where the planets are as the sky is filled with star light.

[mistyspook]

I haven't tried the 10mm, but will as soon as I have a nice clear night and let you know how it goes. Thanks.

[ZeroID]

Hi again Alga,

Best advice I've got if you want to learn the sky is to get Stellarium. Free excellent software which lets you set it up at your location so you can run in and out the door looking at the screen then the sky..... unless you've got a laptop. Google will find it. Has redscreen to help your night vision and lots of clever features to find anything. My advice is to set it up with 'Ocean' as the surface feature which effectively gives you the horizon from where ever you look. Pick a particular star/planet etc you want to find and work at it from there. Takes time but becomes a fascinating exercise trying to find what you KNOW is out there.
My home site is pretty light polluted but I'll have a run out into the country soon and see how the viewing improves.

Cheers and Clear skies

Brent

[mistyspook]

G'day Brent, I've got Stellarium in Ubuntu lucid lucy and am learning to use it. I also have Opensuse 11.2 and will download Kstars and get into that as well. The wonders of linux never fails to amaze me with it's infinite variations and ability to be adapted to whatever system you wants.

Thanks for the tips, I was having a bit of trouble with it, but now it's making more sense. I think one of my biggest problems is locating things in the sky and finding some planets to check the scope out better. As I'm looking west out of a window my view is rather limited and it's too cold to go outside this time of the year. My partner is very interested now she's seen the moon, we are discussing building a small observatry either on top of the workshops or above the aquaponics and cellar which is protected from the winds, but has an unbroken 360 view and on top if the hill. I also have an old laptop and will turn it into a linux astronomy system as I learn more.

Thanks again it's made it much easy for me now.

[ZeroID]

Out of a Window !! Now that has got to be difficult. Whats the light pollution level like where you are ? Window open of course ?

You will only find a few planets if you are lucky. At present I have Mars in th western sky in the early evening and Saturn after about 8 pm in the NE. Jupiter won't show up till later this year. Venus near the sun can eb seen but is just a bright star like blob. The rest are not really visible to identify in a 114mm.

Here's my current viewing thread, temps down about 10 degree C so bundling up warm but not frozen yet. I wear biking gloves, no finger ends to keep the hands moving and take a Thermos.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=61913

[mistyspook]

We are up pretty high so out of the window gives me a 180 view West, no light pollution at all. What do you mean "Jupiter won't show up till later this year", an Aus amateur astronomer caught a meteor event on jupiter just a few days ago didn't he. I do most of my looking in the early morning hours or before the moon rises. As soon as I've worked out this 114 and get used to using it and th lenses, I will get somehting much better until then I will just bubble on. Thanks.

[ZeroID]

Hi Alga, I don't see Jupiter till later because I can't stay up till the early hours of the morning and my eastern horizon is unavailable, light pollution, ridge line and trees on my back fence. The city is over that way so anything below about 60 degrees is lost in the glow. My best view line is WNW to due Sth. I'll reserve my good viewing for my dark site up in the Waitakere's. Plan is to collect a good portable setup with some alignment aids and power things from the car.
I did a bit of pruning in the garden over the weekend which opened up some sky to me from a sheltered concrete platform which will one day be part of my Pizza oven. View won't be quite as good but easy access will let me experiment at home for best practice.

[mistyspook]

G'day Brent, I understand you now and have a similar problem to the east, we are halfway up a small mountain and it blocks a lot out plus at this time of year, freezing.

I'm waiting for a really clear night so I can get the 10mm eye piece to work and take it from there. Also drawing up plans for an observatory in our workshop, we get really strong winds and the houses sit on the edge of the hill so putting something on the roof would probably see it blown away. May end up building a big Dob in the end if I really get into it. The workshop has a large lathe and a hobby lathe so i should be able to turn out whatever is needed.

Best of luck with you mountain viewing.

[ZeroID]

Cheers Alga, been looking at Obs options on Cloudy Nights. All advice I've seen says don't put them in the roof as the floor will vibrate to much but they are talking about much larger scopes that need concrete piers etc to stabilize. But from what I read you need high stability and equi drive to do long exposure stuff and take real pix.
I suspect my $$ will never get me there.
I am having thoughts about building an 8" or 10 " collapsible Dob. Long as I keep the weight down it can fit in the wagon and I can carry it to dark skies. Buy the mirrors and build the rest I reckon, got plenty of parts to play with.

[ColHut]

Could you send attach a picture of your scope?

regards

[ZeroID]

Hi Colin, who are you talking to here ?

BTW Alga, I've started on the 10" Dob. Built the bottom assembly and designed and built a Super Simple 6 Point Suspension Cell for a 10" mirror. (Trying saying that fast !!) I'm told it's slightly overengineered but GUIPLOP reckoned it was the best configuration with least error.

I'm taking pix as I go. Will post a few up when I think I've got the components in final configuration. Construction is being kept very simple with much use of recycled parts from various sources.

[ColHut]

Oh sorry, the OP. I was trying to get a better idea of what mount he has.

regards