ST-8300 alternative

[Hans Tucker]

Well it seems you can't get a FW-8300 Filter Wheel in Australia until August because of a backlog in orders...but US vendors have them on the shelves...go figure. Anyway because of this I am toying with the idea of selling my ST-8300M camera, staying with the KAF-8300 Sensor but going with another camera manufacturer. I am looking at the FLI PL-8300 or ML-8300. Anyone have experience with these cameras and can tell me if you get operating software with the camera and if so how good it is...or is it third party? Also good and bad points? What filter wheel you are using? ect

[renormalised]

You might also want to look at one of these...

Moravian Instruments G2-8300 (http://www.myastroshop.com.au/moravian/index.htm)

[Tandum]

Why not just buy the wheel offshore?

[renormalised]

That's the easiest thing to do:)

[Hans Tucker]

Can't Robin..offshore sellers will not sell to Aussie buyers because there is an authorised Australian agent for SBIG.



Thanks for this suggestion and link Carl...interesting new boy on the block but since I purchased a Filter Wheel (which was to use on the ST-8300 but didn't work out as well as I thought it would) from FLI I want to stick with FLI.

[Tandum]

So there is a block when ordering through opt?

[dugnsuz]

Peter Tan's site in Hong Kong states delivery of the SBIG filter wheel early June...
http://www.tan14.com/gears.htm#SBIG

I'm sure you would have no ordering worries with him and at a decent price.
Doug

[Marke]

QSI 583 is what I will be getting soon

[troypiggo]

Anyone know the cost of that Moravian KAF 8300 mono?

[renormalised]

The prices should be up on the site soon, according to Steve.

[Bassnut]

Exactly, done it many times, no mucking around, OPT will supply, fast and cheaper.

[Jeffkop]

Hans I know Greg Bradley has had one of these (probably since they were introduced)and has produced some great results with it. He is knowledgeable and could answer most of your questions with first hand experience.

[Tandum]

So it works? I know celestron don't work. I didn't realise we had a dealer in OZ.

[Bassnut]

Opt will supply SBIG, they have to me, eagerly :P.

Yes, we have an excellent dealer in OZ, with all the support etc.

Im only suggesting OPT over the local, if you are finding it difficult to get supply in OZ. OpT appear to have it in stock.

[beren]

I know you mentioned you want to stick with FLI :) but another alternative is the Alta U8300 from Apogee. Yet to achieve first light with mine but it's a classy bit of kit and worth a look.

[robert.knox]

Sorry to hear about your issues with your SBIG Camera... You coulds try the Moravian Insrtuments camera (G2-8300 camera)... It has the same chip and an inbuilt filter wheel. :)

[renormalised]

Already mentioned it, Rob:):)

[robert.knox]

Thanks Carl....

I think I need glasses.....:help:..:lol:

Robert

[rogerg]

Is interesting looking at all these different variations of the same thing. I wonder why QSI had internal 1.25" filter wheel but SBIG says you need bigger than 1.25" ? Is that just because the SBIG filters are further from the chip? Or does the QSI have some vignetting? :shrug:

[robert.knox]

Camera's like the Moravian Instruments G2 series and the QSI cameras have the filter wheel very close to the CCD and you can use 1.25" filters. Other cameras need a filter wheel and depending on the scope, you may need 2 inch filters or 'could' get away with 1.25 inch filters....

[TrevorW]

Atik 383

[mithrandir]

Wish they'd hurry up with the new filter wheel to go with it.

[Marke]

Simply because the QSI unit is all in 1 and the filters are so colse to
the sensor that they dont vignete . If you want there is 31mm option
for same cost.

[gregbradley]

I have a FLI ML8300.

Good points - the best cooling of any manufacturer, the lowest read noise of any manufacturer, the fastest download times, the Microline is small and light the Proline would be rather large and heavy and overkill for this chip.

It has an image buffer. To connect the camera using CCDsoft takes about 1 second and the drivers are stored in the camera once connected so you can disconnect it from the computer and reconnect it and it is still going at its cold temperature. SBig cameras need to be rebooted from scratch if you interrupt the power supply (easy to do due to the extremely low quality power plug in the ST402 and 8300 body) and takes a little while. It also loses it cooling and has to do it again.
A very annoying aspect of the SBIG and a bit antiquated.
FLI ML8300 gets me -35C in summer and -40C in winter easily. It cools in about 5 minutes. It has a very stable and high quality power plug.
It has no bad points as a camera.

FLI make several filter wheels all are compatible with their 2 model cameras. I use the CFW 4/5 as I also use it with a Proline 16803.
The filter wheel uses a plastic chain to ensure exact repeatability and a solid filter wheel carousel which prevents dust getting in to the camera.
Apogee has cutouts and can let some dust through.
The FLI filterwheel has a large opening and to attach an adapter you have a fairly shallow thread depth and this needs to be known to suppliers of adapters as I have had to grind a couple down to make them fit otherwise they jam the carousel. FLI seem to be associated with Maxim DL but also works in CCDSoft which is what I use.

Apogee also make a nice 8300 camera although the cooldown time is about 30 minutes but it gets cold to -50C.

QSI also make a nice 8300 camera with the built in off axis guider model and built in filter wheel. But its cooling is weaker at up -40.

The FLI also has the plus of a very large opening for the chip so there is no chance of vignetting. Also their adapters have a V cut in them and a grub screw to engage so it is very positive and solid and self aligning which is another piece of clever engineering.

FLI is simply the best. Ask Richard Crisp who is a CCD engineer and routinely tests various astronomy cameras for performance and FLI has beaten them all. Apogee is another close contender. The slow cooling is my only concern with Apogee but in every other way they are also excellent. Except perhaps for the cutouts in the filter which is otherwise a marvel.

Greg.

[renormalised]

Greg...a couple of questions. How much does the ML8300 cost and how does it stack up to the Proline version.

[Hans Tucker]

For SBIG products...yes

[jase]

KAI-11002 sensor prices continue to fall at a slow rate given they're no longer "king of the chips" with 16803 around. There's probably a good reason why you want to stick it out with the 8300. I'd play my cards differently...

[gregbradley]

Not sure of the current cost of the FLI ML8300 - I think its around US$3995 and there are a few filter wheels but the one I am using I think is around US$895.

The Proline I have is the 16803. It requires 50mm square filters. I have both Baader and Astronomik. They are both good.

Proline is quite a large and heavy camera and I don't see any real advantage here for the 8300. The Proline has heavier cooling power
has a built in USB and power hub and I think a larger aperture.
It is more for the larger chips.

As Jase mentioned the 11002 chip is cheaper nowadays and probably the better imaging chip as an all rounder as 95% of all top images on the net today are using the 11002 chip. It allows you an upgrade path of your scopes without needing to upgrade the chip.

The 8300 chip is very good but its main weakness is small well capacity of 25,000 electrons or less. 16803 is more like 100,000 or more.
What that means is that bright stars can spill over more easily than with some of the other chips. On the other hand it has QE of about 60% compared to the 11002 QE (sensitivity) of around 45-50%.



Greg.

[Hans Tucker]

I have the FLI CFW-2-7 which is a nice piece of engineering hence my interest in the FLI camera. Plus the customer service given by FLI is top rate. Thanks Greg for you concise post regarding the ML-8300.

[renormalised]

Thanks, Greg:)

[OzRob]

Why not see if these guys can buy it in the states for you: PriceUSA (http://www.priceusa.com.au/)

[jase]

Old hat information; Helps to understand CCD camera nomenclature before delving too deep on the report.
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/U8300_ML8300_char_report_page.htm

EDIT:
http://www.narrowbandimaging.com/images/u8300_ml8300_qsi583_ptc_dtc_compari son_brief.pdf
Now includes QSI

[bert]

I shot some images on a qsi583 with the 1.25 filters last week with a tak fsq106 at prime. It DOES vignette. I suppose it could be flated out, but I was playing around and didnt get too serious about calibrations.

It may not on slower scopes with a shallower light cone, I didnt test it though.

Brett

[troypiggo]

How badly? Got images? Would be handy to see for those contemplating these cameras to see some real results.

[bert]

I didnt keep the images unfortunetly.

I was at a friends observatory, and the images are on his observatory computer. It was first (ccd) light for his new observatory. The sensor is very clean especially compared to my sbig.

I took some 1 minute luminance exposures and vignetting was clearly visible. I have not processed any of the images as we started the beers in celebration (Coopers vintage 2005:thumbsup:) of the first image on the screen.

I do know that it is the camera though not the FSQ106ed with its legendary abilty to evenly illuminate a field. I do not think it would be such a problem with slower scopes.

Brett

[Hans Tucker]

That is why SBIG advises not to use 1.25" Filters and why they have gone to 36mm Filters..to eliminate vignetting at an economical price. An alternate option to going up to 2" Filters which is what I elected to do.

[bert]

A good option, and smart thinking, as it allows for the next upgrade. In the qsi's defence they did design the filter wheel to be very close to the sensor as possible (as opposed to sbig's shortcut of using the st402 type chassis and tack on a filter wheel), cools pretty quickly, is very quiet, smaller than it looks in the ad, and light and as mentioned earlier it is very clean and noise free.

I think jase's comment about saving for the 11002 chip is the best option, from what I have seen, I think that the 8300 chip is suitable for widefield but pretty average for longer focal lengths. (Sbig's stl11k is priced pretty attractively atm imho)

Brett

[renormalised]

Sure the vignetting wasn't caused by tunnel vision induced by all those Coppers ales??!!!!:):P

[telemarker]

According to the SBIG site they say that with 1.25" filters they'll vignette in scopes f6 and faster. I've a full set of 1.25" lrgb and narrowband filters that I've not tried with the ST-8300 yet (ps looking for a 7 position motorized wheel). None of my scopes are faster than f7.5, so I'll be trying the 1.25" filters before I consider upgrading.

[renormalised]

If you're looking at a 11002 chip camera at a good price, the Moravian Instruments G3-11000 (mono) is going for $6316, sans GST ($6947 w GST), at the current exchange rate with the EU. That's with an internal filter wheel and a Class 1 CCD. Without the fw...$6015 ($6616), and colour version. Class 2 CCD's without fw and colour $5325 ($5837). With fw (mono) $5626 ($6188).

[Hans Tucker]

Well after reading posts in this thread I have decided to put the ST-8300M Camera up for sale but before that I need to replace the 2" Nose piece which I gave away as part of another camera sale..ssoooo..I need the assistance of other ST-8300 camera owners in identifying this part. I know it is a Baader part but I need the product number or identification.

Little Help...Please

[Octane]

Hans,

What are you going to get instead?

H

[Hans Tucker]

G'day H,

Well I know it won't be SBIG...I am looking at the FLI Microline range. Greg Bradley and Mike Sidonio have convinced me that FLI would be the better option....plus I have an unused CFW-2-7 which would be best suited to the same brand cameras. Before I got enticed by the ST-8300 I had planned on an STL-11K so I might look at the same sensor but in the FLI range.

[Tandum]

This will do it -> https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=7403

But you won't use it with a wheel.

[Manav]

Hi all! Just out of curosity I checked out the QSI 583 the mid body option. I myself own a Newtonian and was wondering if this could be the choice CCD due to it's least back focus and built in filter wheel. Any thoughts? Slightly off topic I know :)

[gbeal]

Or here Hans, I have these and they are great.
http://www.alpineastro.com/eyepiece_adapters/eyepiece_adapters.htm#Nosepieces
Gary

[pvelez]

I have a ST-8300M.

I went with the FW8-STL filter wheel. I suspect I was the first in Australia to pick up the adapter plate so I can use it with the imager.

I wanted 2 inch filters as my OTA is f4.

Problem - its a heavy beast. I can't use my motorised focuser as its too much for it. So I'm now considering moving on to the QSI and selling the SBIG rig. Is this of any interest?

Pete

[rogerg]

I'd love to see raw files from the QSI to gauge the extent of the vignetting at different focal ratios.

[Hans Tucker]

I had the same vision of the setup you have...but I elected to go with the CFW-2-7 over the FW8-STL because SBIG hadn't sorted out the adapter for mating the FW8-STL to the ST-8300M. ATS quoted me $1500 for the FW5-8300 so I didn't really want to ask what a FW8-STL would cost me. Things weren't working out on the SBIG side for me so I have elected to go with selling the ST-8300M and buy FLI so I can use the CFW-2-7 and salvage something out of this mess.

[gregbradley]

Depends what you mean by vignette. Some setups appear to vignette but flat field nicely. I have a few setups that "vignette" badly but flat field out nicely. AP140 with the compressor/corrector, FSQ with its reducer, the BRC250 needed flats. All high end scopes and thats with 50mm square filters, large aperture openings all the way to the chip.

greg.

[PRejto]

I know this is an old thread, but it's one of the only ones here that discusses the Moravian G2-8300. I was in touch with Pavel about this camera and he gave me some information that is not available on their web site, or dealer's sites.

1. The filters that fit the internal filter wheel are both 1.25" threaded filters and 31mm glass only filters -without cells - which when fitted have a clear aperature of 28mm. This allows for f/4 and slower optics without vignetting. He wrote:

"Please take into account that vignetting we discussed previously affects only a very small portion of the detector in the corners. Such vignetting, caused by the filter is often much smaller compared to the vignetting inherent to the optics. One G2-8300 user takes beautiful images with 31mm filters with an f/3.6 astrograph without any trace of vignetting."

"When you do the math, the result is that there is no vignetting with f/13 optics when using 24.5mm aperture filters." (that is, 1.25" threaded filters)

2. The weight of the G2 camera head is 1.1kg with the filter head. With a Canon EOS Clip Adapter and 31mm LRGB filters = 1.14kg

3. Back focus: Front plate to CD = 29mm, With T thread = 55mm

[CoolhandJo]

Since the thread is re opened I am going for the Atik 4000 medium format chip. It seems to be the perfect upgrade option for me based on use of 1 1/4 filters, descent well depth and pixel size, and handles a range of FL. Also pretty good QE at 55+%. It's dark current is low and has a 8 sec exponential.