Sydney Observatory Selling Star Names?

[wanglese]

http://www.sydneyobservatory.com.au/star/

I realise they have to make money, but this is downright misleading, and against IAU protocols.

[DavidTrap]

I know what you mean. It seems they are linking the names to a catalogue published in a scientific journal. However, with diminishing public funding for such historic sites, I'd prefer they do this rather than close down...

Just my 2 cents worth

DT

[wanglese]

There is *no* excuse for misleading the public. If they promote that nonsense, they may as well sell astrology magazines and zodiacs. They can make a bucket load of money on those too.

Funding is another matter entirely, as I doubt they would get enough out of this to stay open.

[Steffen]

I agree that they should make it more clear that what you get is a novelty certificate, not any sort of entitlement or deed, in exchange for your donation.

Cheers
Steffen.

[wanglese]

I got a response from Sydney Observatory.

They state that the stars are selected from the Sydney Souhtern Star Catalogue published in 1983, and

"We make very clear to all purchasers that the names are recorded only on Sydney Observatory’s data base and are not valid anywhere else. And they can come to Sydney Observatory to view their “star”. There is no time limit on the "star"."


Sadly, they don't make this clear on their webpage.

They do tell purchasers that the proceeds go to the preservation of the collection and equipment.

I'm waiting for another person to come to one of our public nights asking to see "their star", and when I straighten them out, tell me that "well Sydney Observatory sell them so it must be OK"

sigh.

I'm not 100% satisfied with the response.

[DavidTrap]

Was just talking to my wife about this. She has seen "naming a star" suggested for people who have lost a baby through miscarriage or cot death. Joe Public may find comfort through such a thing. I'd prefer they gave their "donation" to a worthwhile institution like this, rather than another mob of "charlatans" who are just doing this for profit.

DT

[ngcles]

Hi Wanglese & All,

I work at Sydney Observatory as a guide and I have to admit that prior to the introduction of this programme, I had very serious misgivings about it too. However ...

The IAU cannot and does not "prohibit" the practise of naming stars, they merely disassociate themselves with it.

See here:

http://www.iau.org/public/buying_star_names/

The IAU cannot legislate against it nor could they enforce any "ban" or "protocol". The reason behind their stance is that they had a million enquiries from people seeking info on stars they were "sold" at places like the buy-a-star register and these people were great disappointed because they honestly believed they "owned" the star in question and that their name was recognised by astronomers all over the world.

Those private individuals out there "selling stars" are quite different from the programme at Sydney Observatory and do not offer what we offer, nor do we promise what they promise. We operate within both the letter and the spirit of the stance taken by the IAU.

When people decide to participate in our programme, they are clearly told (and it is also in the documentation we supply) that the name they associate with the star in our catalogue is only recognised at Sydney Observatory and has no standing outside Sydney Observatory.

We "name" only stars that are actually within the great Sydney Southern Star Catalogue that was actually compiled at Sydney Observatory via its massive astrometric work between about 1880 and 1983. It was, when complete one of the largest (and most accurate) star catalogues in the world. Sydney Observatory owns the rights to that catalogue (it's ours!!)

You will notice here from the website:

"Name A Star links a name with a star in our catalogue and your donation funds the heritage and collection program at Sydney Observatory, a non-profit organisation, part of the Powerhouse Museum. This means that your individual Name A Star gift is fully tax-deductible. Your chosen name for the star in the catalogue is kept in the Observatory’s records."

http://www.sydneyobservatory.com.au/star/

People don't "buy" a star per-se -- they know they own no rights to it in any way -- they are only associating a name they choose with it. In the similar way to the manner a corporate entity or a private person associates their name as a sponsor with an animal at the Zoo.

All of the funds raised via this programme go to the upkeep of Sydney Observatory and its numerous astronomy outreach programmes. Not one cent goes to the Government or consolidated revenue. Sydney Observatory via this and other initiatives is the only part of the Powerhouse Museum that actually breaks-even money wise (in fact we make a nominal profit -- that we keep and save for future programmes!). You'd be surprised how many we've "named" and how much it brings in.

The money is used to restore important pieces of astronomical equipment and records or to our outreach programmes. Next year, we will be building another outside dome/building using the restored dome from the old photoheliostat that at last disabled people will be able to access the stars. I think from memory, over 100,000 people visited Sydney Observatory last year. There were approaching 1,000 school groups. If we didn't do this programme, most of the money it generates would have to be recouped via further government funding (do you know how hard it is to get money out of the NSW Govt at this time ??) or somewhat increased general admission prices. Only 2 years ago the Powerhouse Museum was very nearly shut down 2 days a week to save money because they run at a big loss -- we don't.

The reality is, our "Name-a-Star" programme is hardly any different in practice or principle to Taronga Park's sponsor an animal/exhibit -- and not many people object to that.

But that's only one side of the equation. If people didn't participate in our programme, most of them would just go to one of the internet registry's and buy one -- the money is better in our "pockets" than theirs. As I said earlier, I was a great doubter at its inception, now I'm a believer. More than half the stars named at our observatory are commemorative/anniversary stars -- named for lost loved ones. The people who do name a star really love what we do and sometimes come back year after year at special times to look at the star through our 'scopes they named for a lost son or daughter, grandma or grandpa -- it's genuinely cathartic for them. We also have many "corporate" stars bought by numerous organisations.

Plus, instead of just giving them a pretty certificate, we actually tell them a bit about their star while they are viewing -- we impart a bit of astrophysics to them about how hot it is, how far away, how much bigger than/smaller than our Sun -- it's a chance to dazzle them with a bit of science. And they really take it in because it's "their" star.

The casual night guides that work at the Obs are a mix 1:2 of very experienced amateurs and Masters and PhD candidates who are supporting themselves through their studies. We can name eminent astronomers like for example Bryan Gaensler (Cosmologist/Astronomer) & Young Australian of the Year) who started their careers at the Obs as night guides and have gone on to great things (stellar careers indeed!!)

An important part of our programmes is the "Name-a-Star" for all these reasons. That's why we do it. It's not money grubbing for the government --its for the benefit of astronomy. It has been so successful there are now many other public observatories around the world doing the same thing for the same reasons.

Have I persuaded you?


Best,

Les D

[DavidTrap]

Glad to hear the spirit in which this is being conduced Les.

Maybe the Sydney Observatory should advertise in the baby magazines - beat the "charlatans" at their own game!

DT

[qld]

mate your very good at convincing me,i remember running into you at a chatswwod newsagency last year when i was buying an astro magazine and you popped up from behind the stand to congratulate me for my purchase you were very convincing indeed......from now on im going to call you Kevin as he is like you very convincing

[PeterM]

And about time that Astronomy has a win(dfall). Fantastic that monies raised will be used 100 percent to fund what Les has noted.
Congratulations to Sydney Observatory.

PeterM.

[taxman]

I got the accomodation package that goes along with the name-a-star for my wife the Christmas before last.

It is pretty clear that it is not official, but meh. It was a very nice night and the guide we had (I don't think it was Les) was interesting. The restaurant and accomodation was almost intimidatingly fantastic.

At the very least, it is a wonderful way to share a hobby with a loved one...

[mithrandir]

The children "bought" me one for last Xmas. They made me think up a name for it. Viewing night isn't until October.

[wanglese]

No Les, you have not convinced me. People know they don't "own" an animal at a zoo, because only the Zoo sells sponsorships.

Any charlatan can take the Southern Star Catalogue, and "sell" the same stars you catalogue. THey just have to say "it will be in our database". Heck, a free astronomy program like "cartes" would do.

The best will in the world doesn't excuse it, because it sends completely the wrong message. You are telling people they can buy a star. The website wording is disingenuous. because you are avoiding the full disclosure that the "owenership" has no legal grounds.

Why not print out a chart of the date of someones birth, or death of a loved one? Coming from an observatory, it would hold some legitimacy, it would make a ton of money because there's a lot of believers in astrology out there, a lot more than astronomers. You would make a ton, a ton, of money, and you would put a stop to many of the astrologers who do not much more than that.

I know it sounded like a really, really, cool idea to make money. There are other steps.

Will it now be OK for amateur societies, who also struggle for funds to "sell" a star to someone because someone imaged it through a telescope? They have just as much right to do so, after all, the image is their work. After all "others are doing it around the world".

Or is it left to the professionals, and instead we refer them to Sydney Observatory if they ask us if they can buy a star?

Our website will clearly state that you only get a piece of paper.

Yes. I am annoyed, and you cannot legitimise this by saying you are "building stuff for disabled people". Such arguments are meaningless, and there are many other struggling PhD's and up and coming astronomers doing other work in other places- so please, "no holier than thou" arguments either.

Get someone to donate the material or the money for it and put up a plaque.

[ngcles]

Hi Wanglese,



Okay No problem. We can't all see eye to eye all the time.:thumbsup:



Okay, can you list 5 that would bring in total say, $100,000 - per annum?



Yep, that sounds easy -- should have thought of that one in the first place ... gee. I bet we'd have 'em knocking the doors down to give us money for ... a plaque


Best,

Les D

[AstralTraveller]

Wally,

Yasmin is sorry she mentioned it to you. I think it might be concern for your health.

Initially I was also horrified but Les has sort of won me over. BTW I notice that you equate selling a star name with selling the star itself. I doubt any buyers think they can go and plant a flag on the thing!! Either you choice of words or you logic needs to be tightened up. I also can't understand why you bring up astrology. I think to link this to astrology is drawing a long bow - especially as they provide info on the physical properties of the star but not how it may affect you love life. Lastly, you should know as well as anyone just how hard it is to "Get someone to donate the material or the money for it".

[rat156]

Hi All,

I'm sorry if I come down on the unpopular side, but I have to agree with Wanglese on this one.

I went to the page in question, and although it mentions the Sydney observatory's catalogue there is no real explanation to the layperson what this means. It may be in the fine print on the order form, but most people don't read that sort of stuff properly and many would not understand it. I think many people would be of the opinion that the star in question would be called what they named it, rather than it's catalogue number.

I really don't like the blurring of the lines here, it's OK to do something a bit dodgy (Les initially had doubts, hence he thought it was dodgy in the first place) as long as the cause is just? Ends justifying means are never strong arguments.

I can name one way of raising $100000, raise the admission price by $1 per person, not popular, but at least above board.

Cheers
Stuart

[ngcles]

Hi Stuart,



No need at all to be sorry about it mate, I well and truly understand your view and initially, quite frankly it wasn't enough for me either that the money went into our coffers for our own use. Most if not all of the guides were quite opposed to the idea. We have all changed our minds.

Before we started the programme, we used to get maybe a half dozen enquiries a week from members of the public asking to view a star they bought on-line from places like the international star registry.

I can assure you that each and every person in our programme is made well aware that they don't "own" the star when they join our programme. They are made well and truly aware that the only place their naming is recognised is at our Observatory. Most couldn't care less. I also make mention of it when I do the viewing and I'm pretty certain all the other guides do likewise.

It took me six months to be convinced on whether this was the right thing to do. What swayed me in the end was the reactions of the people who were coming to do the viewing.

I remember several where people had named a star after babies that were still-born or died soon after birth. It was their little perpetual monument of choice in the sky to their lost child. I remember one family of a dozen people who came one night and brought nanna who was dying of terminal cancer (she had to be carried upstairs). They named the star for her and they all viewed it with tears in their eyes knowing she'd be gone in less than a month -- this was their own personal memorial and way of saying good-bye together.

Equally I also remember a few "marriage proposal" stars -- it's hard to imagine something more romantic to mark the engagement. I can also recall one that went horrendously wrong on that point ...

There are hundreds of anniversary stars, birthday stars corporate stars, engagement stars, Andrea Bocelli bought a bevy of them and gave them to his staff here in Australia as thanks for support during a recent tour -- with champers and chocolates and a private viewing too.

People name these stars they see as an eternal and unmoving monument simply as a symbol of something important to them and they really do get something out of it.

This is how I do a viewing (20-odd minutes)(just so you know):

Bring them up and align the 'scope.

Show them the star on The Sky (software).

Show them how we get the 'scope on that star. (Allow them to push the buttons and do the mouse clicks if they want)

Make them aware it is in our catalogue and not recognised elsewhere.

Put the star in the 'scope and check and double check against the paper maps we (the guide) use printed from The Sky.

While they are viewing I give them a run-down on the vital statistics of the star like distance, spectral type temprature, luminosity, expected life-time etc etc. They will almost always discuss why they are doing this (who it is for and why).

We then go downstairs into the courtyard and I use the laser to show them where the star is in the sky using some of the brighter marker stars visible.

I've done maybe a couple of hundred and only twice in my experience have people gone away less than happy -- almost without exception they are thrilled.

The two that were unhappy were: (1) Failed marriage proposal (2) Guy who named a star for a girl on only their first date -- she went oh-ooooo and ran for her life. The guy was a bit ... weird and was desperate to get to second base with a girl who just wasn't interested I think.

As a result we get an important boost to our funding instead of them going somewhere like the star registry (in someone's pocket who probably cares little for astronomy) and being nothing more than an entry on a hard-drive somewhere.

It allows us to do more to promote astronomy as a hobby, profession and science. They go away happy, informed and with a positive experience related to astronomy and a permanent, positive link to the observatory. Honestly the thing that won me over in the end was the reactions of the viewers who had named a star -- seriously. They absolutely love it!

I can and do understand your misgivings. Just remember this: its not my idea. I just work there. One idea I offered recently to improve the programme was to include a transparency copy of the original plate taken at the Obs or at the Pennant Hills field station with their star indicated as part of the gift-pack.

We have to scan the plates though ...

Hope this helps you understand. If you disagree -- fine you are perfectly entitled to your opinion. :thumbsup:


Best,

Les D

[wanglese]

LOL Dave, I did get a bit obsessed with it, and may have seemed intempartate but it's a slippery slope they are on, and the areguments presented in favour of it, are DUMB logic.

Charlatans on the web sell "Star Names" too. and you end up in their database, guaranteed that it will not be sold to anyone else in their database.

What SO has done "legitimises" the practice. They may not think it, but do a google search on buying Star Names, do some reading of the discussions, and be amazed (or not) that there are people out there that say it's OK, because Sydney Observatory does it, but you can get it cheaper overseas.



As for Astrology? I'd be unhappy to sell people star charts to raise funds for our cash strapped society, but there would be no difference whatsoever.

[DavidTrap]

At least the practice has been "legitimised" by an organisation that, I'd like to think, most of us would support?

Like any public viewing night we participate in - it's a public relations exercise that is more likely to bring people to astronomy.

DT

[Steffen]

I've got a couple of ocean-front blocks by the Mare Tranquillitatis for sale. First come first served basis…
:evil:

Cheers
Steffen.

[astroron]

I think Mt Stromlo visitor center also sells Star Names
cheers

[erick]

Think I'll name one for my sister who died at 3 days well before I was born. Why? 'cause I want to. Supports the Observatory (and tax deductible!)

[AstralTraveller]

I've got a nice bridge for sale. From the top you can even see Sydney Observatory.

[JimmyH155]

What a load of rubbish this all is. I guess, though, that "Some mothers do have 'em"

[qld]

:eyepop:
now that this issue has been put to bed why are all the true believers in climate change so quiet ,now that their hero Dr Dudd has dumped on them and his mythical CTS scheme

[Satchmo]

Thats the spirit. Its charity dressed up in fun , and you get something for it. I felt annoyed the first time I heard about it , but I've mellowed somewhat. You can pay the government $1000 a year for some stupid number plate. Now, the cost of two Sydney Observatory staff to turn up to a place you nominate with a a couple of telescopes for two hours for $1000, I'm not sure . Again I guess it would have to be an organised charity event or something to make sense.

[AstralTraveller]

????? where did that come from ?????

[syousef]

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread. Only found out about this a couple of days ago. Sydney Observatory is off my list of organisations to support in any way. Which is a real pity as they do other positive things. But I cannot support them while they engage in this.

Since previous posts have cast doubt about the IAU's position, I think it's pretty clear from the below that they consider this practice to be "charlatanry". I don't believe the fine print makes it okay. By selling stars Sydney Observatory legitimizes all the private "registries" that also sell them and funnel the funds away from science, and they promote ignorance. I can't believe that an organisation with such a wonderful rich history has been reduced to this. :(

http://www.iau.org/public/themes/buying_star_names/

[el_draco]

Its a complete fraud, though they admit it in the fine print. Disgraceful and unconscionable conduct IMHO ..

[Kunama]

I can't see what upsets you so much, seems to me they disclosed exactly what the program is. :shrug:

[AussieTrooper]

I don't really see a problem with this. The names being sold are for an officially recognised catalogue. There is a legitimate astronomical institution overseeing it. The funds are not kept by a profit motivated private individual.
This is no different to people sponsoring a tiger/orang utan/whatever overseas.
If people want to discover and name an astronomical object for themselves and are willing to put the time and money into it, it's not difficult to do.
But for those who want to sponsor astronomy the quick and easy way, this seems a good option.

[syousef]

Many problems with this.

Most people can't tell the difference between Sydney Observatory and an official sounding star registry, people selling land on The Moon or Mars. There are a lot more of these organisations who have been peddling their overpriced paper for decades longer than Sydney Observatory. They also, lower down in fine print, tell you the exact limits of how recognized the star you named is.

An official publicly owned observatory lending its name to this practice legitimizes it. And most of the money will go into the pockets of people who prey on ignorance, not towards science research. Hearing that their relative or relative bought a star for a romantic interest or an aggrieved parent, others will go find a better deal without so much as a clue where the money actually went.

It is at odds with what astronomers and science educators have been telling the public for decades. If a legitimate organisation says otherwise it discredits those astronomers.

While it's true that it is a "real" catalog, it is not a current catalog and will be used by no one for anything other than printing fancy certificates. You are buying a fancy piece of paper that due to the organisation selling it happens to be tax deductible.

It is lazy and doesn't educate. People know nothing new having named a star. Compare that to buying star charts, books, instruments like binoculars, scientific toys and models. Even if they are overpriced people come away learning something. Having named a star they will have learned the designation of a single star in a single catalog and perhaps, if they're lucky or pay extra to be shown, have some idea where the star is (but probably not). Instead "name-a-star" plays on ignorance.