pharmaceutical companies and doctors playing God

[Nesti]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/04/22/2880521.htm?section=justin

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/7098485/govt-suspends-flu-injections-after-major-health-scare/

:mad2:

[Bassnut]

There are lies, damb lies and statistics. 44 cases out of.......?.

Some fruitcakes out there dont belive in flouride in the water supply, and would rather their kids teeth fall out (at our expense) than take some miniscule known health risk.

Both articles are absolutely meaningless with out specifing the total doeses applied, woefull journalism.

[PeterM]

My grand daughter (9mths) had her combined flu/swine on Tuesday afternoon by 1am we were up with my grand daughter, she vomited the childs panadol (we now realise she hates it, so trying childrens Nurofen - but this raises the issue to maybe check how they tolerate pain killers before they are needed) so we gave her the good old tepid bath to bring her down from 38.4 deg to 36.2. As a precaution we rang the Qld health line to see if any issues to be concerned with, they were professional and said not to worry unless went over 40 and/or she had rashes then seek help. Her temp again went up to 38 after a short while, then fell as she went back to sleep. I think it is probably far more common for the temp to go up in probably lots of young kids and most parents might not even know it (sleeping through). Authorities are right to check for a bad batch and report it. But unfortunately these stories can have a knee jerk reaction and other routine vaccinations are then questioned by parents.

PeterM.

[Morepower]

I heard on the news this morning that there had been a bad batch of flu vaccine reported in WA. Especially affecting kids.

[kinetic]

Fred,

would you rather the researchers/doctors/media disregard and ignore the reactions from otherwise
healthy, normal kids?
I agree it is a contentious issue, especially as a parent with young kids
myself.

Steve

[avandonk]

The premise that Medical researchers are playing God is a very pathetic attempt to decry knowledge against superstition.

You are an ignorant fool for even bringing this up in this stupid way.

When and if there is a problem it should be calmly solved.

Not by twits like you reacting to idiotic media!

Bert

[renormalised]

Bert...back down before the mods decide to stomp on you for being overly belligerent. Regardless of what you may think, there's no need to be abrasive.

[kinetic]

That's our Bert, as subtle as a brick through a plate glass window:thumbsup:

[Gallifreyboy]

I thought the media articles were fairly benign and factual. The title of this thread however is a left field editorial by someone with their own agenda for whatever reason that may be (and it isn't astronomical). I share Bert's general thoughts in this regard.

[renormalised]

I thought it was more the F250 through the front of the house:P

[Nesti]

Sorry to burst your scientific utopia Bert, but I'm afraid that in the real world there's a little thing called 'commercial gain' which creates moral hazard within Pharmaceutical product development, marketing, sales and this sales pressure to sell the next best thing then cascades through to General Practitioners, Specialists and Chemists alike.

I'm not a twit, and I don't actually react to idiotic media; I have had a position on the Pharmaceutical industry for sometime now.

A trend that I have seen within all of you posts is that you seem to blindly follow ANY scientific disciple and/or pursuit as though it's some sort of clicky group, or last bastion of human intelligence which needs to be upheld at all costs...at ANY cost...that's that type of old-world crusading which I personally find to be short-sighted and pathetic! If you can't see that the modern world is drugging-up our children and ultimately by-passing 400 million years of immune evolution, I couldn't care less. But I see it!

What's your stance on Thalidomide Bert, just a small oversight; no harm done?

[DavidTrap]

I am a doctor, and I was going to get my 4 yo and 2 yo vaccinated. I'm going to wait a while and see what happens. This is the first time (that I can recall) that they have been advising to have kids vaccinated against seasonal flu. Febrile convulsions are usually harmless, but scare about 10yrs life off the parents!

I was discussing this with a colleague recently - he said that 30% of children tested in the UK actually had antibodies against Swine Flu. What does this mean - most of the people who have had it, didn't even know they had it.

On the other hand, I also work at a major teaching hospital in Brisbane and am involved in managing patients on ECMO (a long term artificial lung) - the first patient we put on ECMO last year was sick with Swine flu. He was a previously well 30yo fellow who someone had sneezed on!

I think the article was quite benign.

DT

[Nesti]

The title I chose for this thread was such to make people THINK. In that, how far do we go in trying to avoid what nature throws at us by creating a man-made solution?

If we cut society out of the disease/immune loop, by using drugs and vaccinating every thing that comes our way, just to combat yet another illnesses, how long as a species do we have before nature throws something at us that we cannot create a drug for and that our bodies cannot cope with?

Most drugs actually by-pass the bodies learning curve. I do have an ethical problem with that.

[avandonk]

Nesti you are quite entitled to follow any irrational path to health. I am not in the business of forever defending modern medicine. My belief system is evidence based systems.

I take your ignorant attack that I always support evidence based science as a plus.

The Thalidomide debacle is exactly why we now have new drug accreditation.

Bert

[renormalised]

It's happening now, with antibiotic resistant TB and other bacterial infections...much of it caused by the doctors overprescribing antibiotics in the past (and their misuse by both doctors and patients). Plus, the use of antibiotics in animal feeds. There will come a time when something does turn up that they can't get rid of. Then we'll be back to square one.

[kinetic]

We were discussing this at work the other day. As we were all 'tradies'
I guess we were unqualified to ponder such huge concepts as viral
research:P, but in a nutshell our conversation and logic was this:

Humans have been on the earth for many millions of years.
Over this time frame virii (sp?) and bacteria have also had a chance
to evolve/ mutate.

In that time frame wouldn't a virus mutate a strain to wipe us out
as a species? 100 % mortality?

Why, in just a small comparative window of decades does another
strain of some virus appear that, if not for just that slight missing
factor, be that killer virus?

Steve

[Nesti]

Bert, that is absolute tripe! If your "belief system is [an] evidence based systems" as you have pointed out, then you would have promptly provided me with a reference as to when and where the "Standing on the shoulders of Giants" quote was used other than that of Newton (as I pointed out to you). I am still waiting for it, but let the issue slide without you having to admit that you were wrong (no big deal).

However, it would seem that you conveniently forget that which you get wrong, yet conveniently do not forget that which others get wrong. You are a living breathing conundrum.

If you are going to be rude - and I'm okay with your words - better make sure that-that person is either A. too dumb or shy to respond or, B. does not have a come-back or, C. is not a student who is required to bite their tongue in order to pass a subject.

Since you're an "evidence based" kinda guy, I'll take back the quarters given weeks ago, and ask you for the reference to your statement...please???? :rolleyes:

[Nesti]

It's because our immune system is - perhaps was - very capable of looking after itself; by design. Yes, we would, can and in fact do have human losses, but it is the species which evolves, not the individual.

There is this rediculous notion in the modern medical world that the human body requires help. In accuality, the human body is very well balanced within the environment...both evolve in sympathy with the other, all plants and animals do this. Disease and viruses are not just the problem, they are also the 'Fitness Landscape' to which the immune system can combat, overcome and evolve from.

A species, any species, cannot evolve in harmony with the environment when there are other man-made factors influencing the cycle. You could argue that we are in fact making ourselves sicker not healthier.

[multiweb]

Don't you love evolution? :) The microscopic buggers will get us in the end coz we're all full of it :lol:

[Gallifreyboy]

The 1918 flu pandemic is estimated to have killed 3% of the world's population, 25 million were dead within just a few weeks of its outbreak, far more than killed in the war. Viruses and other micro organisms become resistant to treatment principally through mutations in their genetic material that are fortuitous. These mutations are not frequent but with very high rates of replication of the organisms the "resistant strains" are conferred a survival advantage in a host. Micro organisms will continue to do that whether there are humans on this earth or not, those that can transmit to other species will have a survival advantage if humans are wiped out. Certainly inappropriate use of antimicrobial agents is of concern but the idea that allowing the human race to suffer potentially treatable diseases (to allow the lucky survivors) to build up immunity for the future in a constantly changing microbial environment is frankly ludicrous.

[renormalised]

Viruses usually don't kill a host unless they cause an overwhelming immune response (or overwhelm the immune system) or do too much damage to the cells they're invading and/or the byproducts of that invasion become dangerous. Viruses (and bacteria as well) reproduce in huge numbers and very quickly, so any mutations in their genes or viral DNA can occur very frequently and be passed on rapidly. Consequently, they can evolve rather more quickly than most living organisms. A virus could evolve that was 100% fatal, but it would be defeating its own purpose of survival and reproduction if it did. Something like that would be more than likely man made. A weapon. A one off agent used to kill a portion of a population, or to kill it completely.

In nature, there have been nasty viruses and bacteria that have caused huge numbers of casualties, e.g. the Black Plague, Spanish Flu, but there's always been some who have been immune to the attacks. That immunity then gets passed onto further generations. But sometimes, that doesn't work as well as it should.

[PeterM]

I too think the articles were rather harmless, thanks for alerting us to them. But the thread title was not in sync with the content. Even after Nesti's explanation which came later. The natural medicine believers use these sort of things as a little more "proof" to the quacked out belief that big drug companies etc are not telling us the truth, that sticking needles into our babies is painful, not necessary and does more harm than good. And a little nonsense soon becomes a lot and if it is not nipped in the bud...

How easy we forget (polio as an example). There is no questioning the overwhelming reason that our kids now enjoy such a high standard of health in this country is because most of the population have already been immunised.
We have got to where we are today at a terrible great cost from those dark ages. This must be defended very, very hard indeed, to the point it will really upset some. Well so be it.

I sort of live the otherside of the coin and you really don't want to be there. My 22 year old son has cerebral palsy, spastic quadraplegia, severley disabled, courtesy of a piddly little virus called Cytomegalovirus (CMV) contracted in the first trimester of pregnancy. No vaccine available then or yet, but has been worked on for years and one day it too will be defeated, not by natural medicines but through ongoing research. If it had been something preventable through vaccination, that through my ignorance I had not given our son, who knows how I would be right now.

PeterM.

[GrahamL]

This thread started as a sniffle before turning into pneumonia.

Well said Peter a most level headed reply :thumbsup:

[marki]

I too support human intervention over the pot luck of evolution (all ok if you are one of the lucky ones not so good otherwise). The sheer variance in the genetic makeup of humans means we do not always get it right and there is always a risk that some small part of the viral DNA/RNA used in the vaccine to prepare the immune system to respond to attack will also trigger a negative response in some people. What I find most interesting in all this is the fact that this has occurred in a relatively isolated area and may very well suggest a problem in the production of the vaccine but I am sure that will now be tested with great care.

Mark

[Lee]

Nesti, your statements sound like the banter of sandwich making tuckshop-ladies!

Go and study a university level course in immunology/infectious diseases/medicine and try again.

[h0ughy]

Guys - no more personal attacks, Nesti - Bert you are on the detention list, i have a bacteria infected big stick and a germy naughty chair. As for the others - go outside and pick up 20 papers.

[Kevnool]

Just another day at the office.

[Nesti]

Gee Lee, thanks for the heads-up.

My mind is with my Spanish wife, not with a group of "tuckshop-ladies". It's very admirable for you to openly share your thoughts however, such a fetish might be best expressed on some other forum perhaps.

Why would I "Go and study a university level course in immunology/infectious diseases/medicine", when that very discipline - even more-so Oncology - come to study with us?

In actuality, we've got to the point that we are now forced to put all of our courses online which also caters for international students. That and the RTO processes cost a fortune...but it's a sign of the times that the general public is seeking other alternatives to modern medicine.

I've seen your type again and again; sitting down the back with your arms crossed, guarded that you might actually learn something new, something that you could never have been taught earlier, something that might shake-up the information and opinion that you've already formed. Fast forward a year or two, and that same type of person is scribbling notes frantically, writing down everything because they finally see how so many pieces fit together.

I've got a better idea for you Lee, why don't you come and study with us and see just how much you don't know about the human species?

Then you are free to make any judgment you like.

With all these people reading this forum, I challenge you to do that!!!

[h0ughy]

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