Animal farm...

[Peter Ward]

The hollow men in our department of foreign affairs, have yet again shown their useless and flaccid natures with the burning of Stern Hu in China. This being yet another example of our Government being totally inept in applying clandestine pressure to obtain a “fair go” for Australian citizens who find themselves in dire circumstances on foreign shores.

The “official” spin (China and here) regarding the Hu case has been atrocious. The billions of dollars in iron ore contracts and taxation royalties simply made him an expendable pawn.

This follows closely after Nigel Brennan was held captive in Somalia (finally freed via a private action). Again with no positive action by DFAT.

I suspect the upshot is, don’t expect any help, such as that given to French or Italian nationals .... They at least, get their people out......sadly, something our lot have not even slightest notion of achieving....as geez, mate it cost money.

It seems I am not alone. A very well written piece in today's SMH

http://www.smh.com.au/business/hu-just-roadkill-on-the-economic-superhighway-20100329-r8d6.html?autostart=1

makes it clear individual rights in Australia are long gone... :(

[TrevorW]

Yes I tend to agree I wouldn't feel safe venturing to any non western country these days

Our Govt whether labour or liberal has an atrocious record for helping Australians caught in dire straights OS

[Ric]

As much as I would love to see more of the world I think it's just safer to see what Australia has to offer and there is certainly plenty to see and do.

[richardda1st]

Peter, you're such a "Anethum graveolens".:P

[cfranks]

:eyepop:

[PCH]

Very witty ! No comment on me agreeing or otherwise - I'm just saying your comment is cleverly put :lol:

[Peter Ward]

Oh heaven sakes, if you are going to be boorish and call someone a Dill, you're usually the one who ends up looking obtuse....or do you work for DFAT?...in which case it all makes sense.

Ian Verrender's piece in the SMH (..if you haven't yet done so, you really should read it....) covered all of my sentiments, and then some. I'm simply thankful it's not a member of my family about to have their life wasted needlessly in a Chinese prison.

[Wavytone]

Wrong country. Aus law does not apply to aussies in foreign countries, though many wish that it did...

When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or suffer Roman law (Wavy's corollary).

[TrevorW]

Historically it is common practice to offer and accept bribes in China when doing business

Hypocritical if you ask me

I wonder how he would have been treated if he'd been a westerner born in this country and the media backlash that would follow

Do you really think he deserves 10 years we don't even jail murderers for that long

[bobson]

I agree with this.

[GrahamL]

Yes .. very much so if he is indeed guilty of what he admited doing .

[TrevorW]

Bob and others please do your research bribery etc is rampant in China and considered the norm when doing business

please read these articles

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5405438.stm

2005 article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/21/AR2005082101068.html


you spout when in Rome do as the Romans do and thats exactly what he was doing the farce is that the Chinese are livid that they had to pay more for the iron ore than they could have and don't like it becuase someone beat them at their own game



2007 article

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/bribery-helps-china-buy-new-friends-overseas/2007/04/25/1177459786035.html

[Peter Ward]

indeed.. it takes a while for the penny to drop for some....

[mithrandir]

Bribery is the way business is done throughout a large part of the world. In most countries it's private. In China and North Korea, ...

The only time it gets you prosecuted, or killed, is when someone decides they didn't get value for the bribe paid.

[multiweb]

Very dirty tactics indeed. It happened last year on a much smaller scale with the company my wife works for. Some containers exported to China were held and weren't paid for. Some of the sales staff did the trip to China to meet and sort out any issues face to face. They were detained until the company paid to bail them out. The police was involved but looked the other way. Corruption is rampant.

The Stern Hu case IMO sends a clear message that it's OK to do this. The worst is yet to come now they know they can get away with it. Money talks.

[casstony]

I read a comment recently saying that the west opened up free trade with China and donated most of our manufacturing jobs, and in return we were supposed to get democracy in China; I wonder if we'll ever see them live up to their part of the bargain.

[space oddity]

We in the western world are so naive. Trying to play the game with western free market principles being distorted by what is effectively slave labour in China. To add insult to injury, they deliberately undervalue their currency to make themselves more competitive. They also show no regard for intellectual property, further making themselves more competitive(do not have to pay for R&D). To add further insult to injury, the stuff they sell is rubbish, so we wind up buying more over time to do the same job, getting further in to debt.
Please explain, if nothing is made in Australia, almost everything imported because our local industries have been undercut and government rules and regulations make us even less competitive, are we to ever pay back our foreign debt or ever become self reliant? How are we going to become competitive if eventually we must have a cost structure cheaper than slave labour ? We really are living in a fool,s paradise at present.
Getting back to the Hu Stern issue,sounds like the Chinese are embarrassed that someone got the better of them and/or they are after bigger bribes. Everone knows that bribery is the norm in China. So, if bribery ceases, how are they going to do business? Perhaps western business should NEVER have started dealing with China. It has had a very destabilising effect on the western world-massive debt, loss of jobs,theft of what the west was best at(innovation.) The only "plus" is a short term provision of cheap junk, raising our(borrowed)standard of living.The jobs being sent to China do not raise the standards of living over there(except Communist Party officials), they just make them work harder-so much for "Peoples" Republic of China.
Beware, the day of reckoning approacheth.:eyepop:

[GrampianStars]

"But where Australia once stood for the rights of the individual, it now seems happy to offer a sacrifice for the good of the collective."

Nicely put but there are NO individual rights in Australia never have been!

Oh! "there goes another flock of pigs." :lol:

[mental4astro]

My 2c worth on our weak Governments, the importation of beef from overseas. What the...?

The only country to export beef to Oz would be the U.S.A., which has the most subsidised agricultural sector of just about any other country. How else would they be anywhere competitive to locally produced beef?

And all we hear on the media is "the beef IS FREE OF 'MADCOW DESIESE'" from our polies.

Are we this stupid in Australia not to see this?

Some Free Trade Agreement we signed up to.

We import previously Aussie made bikkies from China!? Foreign ownership of food is the best scam done to us. We have to pay a foriegn company to feed OURSELVES, with our own food!

And nobody seems to give a stuff!

What else would be expected when our nationals get into trouble overseas, guilty or otherwise.

[Nesti]

Ummm...the Rio/ Chinalco failure followed up by the attempted Rio/BHP deal was literally a slap in the face for the Chinese. You've got to recognise that in China it's all about 'face' and business is done differently than in the west.

The Chinese are BIG on relationships and hate being misled and/or double-crossed. They negotiate hard but a-deals'-a-deal...we MUST let-go of the American-style business mindset...remember how the US has dealt with Aust wheat and wool trade over the past 30 years?...or has that conveniently slipped our minds?

Sure, I bet there are a thousand Stern Hu's out there taking paper bags under the table in China (here too), because that how business has always been done in the orient, even if the law of the land differs. Hu is merely a patsy for initiating a change in the political international trades of the future with China, and China just gave Rio Tinto a slap over the back of the head...in public!

Consider this action by China as a 'shot across the bow for all future western trade'.

The Chinese would have known all of this information for years, but chose to sit on it until it benefited them to make it public and act upon it. The loss of face would have been the trigger for the initiation of some type of action. Now who has egg on its' face? Not China. They played their cards (international politics) and guess what, we got Pwnd!

I bet the whispers around Canberra are around the lines of 'don't touch this coz China's got the goods on us and they're just waiting to slap the evidence down on the table like Perry Mason'.

There was a book published years ago, I think it was called 'Black Face White Heart' (?)...I would suggest all who trade and deal with China read it and learn.

I personally like the Chinese...they work hard, detest laziness and to be perfectly honest, are the best neighbors in my street.

I've got nothing to fear from them...as I'm not a crook.

Just my 17.8 cents worth; tax adjusted.

[bojan]

Ditto.

[Kal]

Corruption at the highest levels of a large capitalist company? Never! :rolleyes:

Perhaps we should have dealt some punishment like this to those on the AWB board with their dodgy "food for oil" corrupt practices which violated UN sanctions.

[bobson]

According to who? Americans and British? I am fed up with those two are thinking they know everything and everyone should play as they say including Australia. If they dont like it siply dont deal with them, but hang on, China is the biggest market in the world.

You better read what Mark/Nesti wrote



Yes, about wool and sheep that we wanted to sell to Russia in 70-s but our friends Americans said if you do that you are dealing with communists!
What are we going to do then, well Americans said, sell it to us, and we did. And then immediately they sold it to Russia. So they can deal with communists but we could not. Give me a break!

[GrahamL]

Are large car makers who lobby and recieve generous tax breaks in Australia to the tune of hundred of millions to make there wares here not guilty of recieving bribes ? .. and how isnt the state not guilty of
paying them ?.. maybe we call it "investment in jobs " rather than what it really is.

If this guy was trying to burn the candle at both ends regarding dealing with state run enterprises .. well there is some chance any govt whos been made to look an ass isn't going to be to happy about it.

The lack of scrutiny from the employer about the buisness dealings
regarding its biggest customer is what should really be in the news :)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/comment/david-prosser-another-case-for-rio-tinto-to-answer-1930813.html

[TrevorW]

Sorry Bob but no this is according to the Chinese please read some of their history even before communist rule etc as far back as when Sun Tzu wrote "the art of war" around 400BC the Chinese have used bribery and espionage to acheive their aims in war and business

I read what Mark wrote and fundamentally it is no different to what I said

this is more about the fact that someone beat them at their own game and they lost face and don't like it

Everybody needs to watch out they don't sell out their own countries to China for the sake of sheer profit

[Visionoz]

Yeah, and the Yanks must have learnt the art too - see what they are doing in Iraq & Afghanistan wars by "ahem" - providing "monetary incentives" to dissuade the so-called dissidents!!.

I am sure in the history of mankind (or animal farm as Peter calls it), we all have been using bribery one way or another and its not only the Chinese that does it unless the world population must be all Chinese!

Cheers
Bill

[Peter Ward]

My beef is not with the Chinese. They do what they can get away with.

In a loose analogy, the response of the Oz government reminds me of an old gag by Robin Williams. The the USA the Police shout "Stop or I'll shoot". Our lot?
" Stop!...or....I'll say stop again!"

[AstralTraveller]

Ofcourse we can throw stones about Chinese behaviour and history because 'ours' is so squeeky clean. :D

The problem with getting into debt with China these days is that we would find it very difficult to blockade their ports to make them accept our opium. :P

[Peter Ward]

The French had no such problem with the Kiwis, in applying pressure to get their "rainbow warrior" operatives out of NZ. Amazing how tying up a few bulk carriers for months on end due "customs anomalies" can provide leverage in an apparently unconnected legal system.

[Nesti]

I've read a lot of good arguments in this thread...perhaps at the end of the day what we're actually seeing is in fact tell-tale signs of a paridigm shift in the way global politics and commercialism is done.

There is a transition happening...and we're caught in the midst of a global balancing of currencies, trade, sovereignty and power.

China, the US and Europe are all deflating their currencies in a desperate bid to increase exports (link this comment to my later comment of precedence)...while we're being 'beach-balled' above the surface as a result of their actions - No, we're not ahead of the financial curve; we're actually experiencing an artificial currency climb and prosperity hike!

Israel is thumbing its nose at the US too...maybe smelling blood in the water.

The BRIC Block was established and is active...SDRs are also active - that's a sign of things to come in itself.

Back to the Stern Hu issue...he's entirely expendable. In fact, this is Chinas' opportunity to create a new international precedence for commercial activity within China. China can and will take every opportunity to let the world know that business will be done their way...or as close to it as possible.

In relation to pointing the finger at who's better or worse than the other...just name a country and there's dirt, it's that simple. The only thing that counts now is being able to READ the play.

Stocks and shares are old news these days...look for spin-offs; projects which takes advantage of the global climate.

[richardda1st]

Hello Peter:hi:

At last we agree on something.;)

Yes, that is a very loose analogy; it’s so loose it looks like you have over done the laxative. :lol:

It’s very obvious to me (unfortunately not to others) that you’re playing a very simple but stupid political game . By knocking our Federal government’s handling of this problem, you have started a racist argument. :mad2::sadeyes::sadeyes:

Peter , it seems to me that you are a “ Right-wing fanatic” and that regardless of what a Labor government does with any issue, you will try to apply your simplistic arguments to smear as much LOOSE CRAP on it as possible.:screwy:

I put this to you. If our government had adopted a much harder line, which may have made the situation worse, people like you will most likely blame and criticize them for going in to hard.:shrug:

XOXOXOXO
Richard

[supernova1965]

I would not be at all surprised if there was a lot going on behind the scenes that was not made public knowledge just something to think about.

[Peter Ward]

As an undergrad, Gough was my hero..

Hence I don't think your comments are even close to the mark.

Thinking of crap, Gough ensured Federal funds were available so that the dreaded "night cart" would be thing of the past & western Sydney was at last, going to be properly flushed....he also released a good number of political prisoners (objectors to the Vietman war...shamefully incarcerated by Gorton et. al.) and opened up equal pay for women...hardly right wing policy.

But I digress. I think I am something of a (Oz) patriot.

A much harder line could have been played out behind the scenes. Rudd could have got on the blower ( in fluent Mardarin) ...." Mate, it's going to cost us, but if you really want to burn one of our Citizens over this, it's going to cost you a lot more..."

What did we get? "I would say to our friends in Beijing … the responsible course of action is to ensure that your judiciary process is transparent"

Think I'll need the full flush for that.

[TrevorW]

My beef is not with the Chinese either I know many and find them generally nice people so I don't know why racism has been mentioned

my beef is that they ie: The Chinese Communist Govt are punishing someone excessively IMO for doing business the way they themselves have done (and others) for millenia but in the process they got duped which they don't like and are making an example of this gentleman

[Peter Ward]

Excellent observation! Succinct and to the point IMHO

[bojan]

Gentleman???
He is a crook. Plain and simple.
Guys like that contributed to recent downturn of economy .. I lost 20% of my super because of people like this.

[Peter Ward]

How can you make this conclusion when no-one here knows what happened in that closed Chinese court?

If Verrender's SMH commentary is accurate, the charges were trumped up at best. One also has to question a legal system that finds 98% of those accused as guilty....

[bojan]

I can... why not? You guys also do not know details, yet you are defending him, for who knows what reasons.
Besides, most of those "high profile" businessmen are crooks.
And, he is not very clever.. being Chinese and letting himself caught in his own environment.. he should have known better.
He deserves everything that will happen to him.

BTW, we do not have any right to criticise other countries and their legal systems. None.
When you are in foreign country, you have to behave according to local rules.
This is exactly what we expect of "them" when "they" are here: to obey OUR rules and customs. And to avoid being in trouble.
I am more than sure he knew exactly what he was doing, he miscalculated and he will pay the price.

[TrevorW]

I honestly can't believe how naive some people are what you are saying is you might as well jail all politicians, all local govt councillors and all business people as they are all crooks.

thats the point but obviously you for one just don't you get it ???

he was doing exactly what they have done to others for a long time and if it hadn't have been the fact he beat them at their own game he may have got away with it but was being made an example of

ps: the term gentleman was being used in it's vernacular context

Please someone close this thread

[Hagar]

When are you people ever going to grow a brain and discuss a subject which isn't designed to instigate a long drawn out round about which is in direct conflict with the political guidelines layed down in the TOS.

You are again discussing a news paper article which no doubt is just one mans thoughts on the whole affair. The political wrangling going on in the background will probably never be known by any of us.

With the history of human rights in China how can we as educated people expect any diferent outcome from what has happened and to try and force China to back down is purely laughable.

Wake up and thank God it's not you there.

[richardda1st]

Peter make up youre mind, what is your beef?

Bojan's assumption has as much if not more credability than you have.

Warren has made a good point (back on topic) that you have ignored.

Did you say Gough? Why????

Trevor, read all the replies.

As I mentioned in a previous topic, "Carefull with that rope Peter":(:(:(".

Doug, it is hard to let these sort of opinions go unchallenged, but you are right. Doug I have seen that you also have been caught up in similar pointless topics.:question:

ps. Whats the harm anyway?

[AstralTraveller]

Oh I get it. And an excellent idea it is too. But to be really useful this joyous action must be followed by some more substantive actions. If you follow your line of thought through you might just see what they are. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

A Australian Citizen has been drawn and quartered and very little to has been done, seemingly for political expediency.

How would you feel if it were a member of your family??



The man is an erudite left wing icon (some of his quips in Hansard were inspired) and led the ALP in from a rather long spell in the wilderness....hence I admired him.

If I were an ultra conservative old Gough would hardly be on my notable Aussies list.......I guess you missed that?

Frankly both sides of the (Oz) political fence now leave me cold....the spin
has long since replaced substance.

[AstralTraveller]

Point taken Peter. But in a pretty analogous situation Gough denied all knowledge of the Balibo five. His govt did a lot of good but just don't put him on too high a pedestal.

[mithrandir]

Foreigners ask why we bother having two political parties. A few years ago I would have been able to pick some differences. These days they are completely interchangeable.

[Peter Ward]

No argument there. It would be interesting to find out who advised whom of what...but indeed, it was also a shameful display of spineless foreign policy.....

[avandonk]

What I find far more reprehensible is these companies are selling our minerals and natural gas reserves for bargain basement prices. Anyone for LNG for their car or truck at 2C per litre? I do not care what they do to each other as they all have the same morals as the Godfather in Mario Puzo's book 'The Godfather'. Whenever something really nasty is done to someone it's always 'nothing personal it is just business'.

Western Governments abrogated many of their powers and thus their duty of care to their citizens with Globalization. They can no longer wield any sort of big stick as the big corporations have them and use them on anyone that gets in the way of their massive profits. China Inc is just such a corporation.

China Inc got very upset when they did not get full ownership of the company selling them the Iron ore. Stern Hu is just someone who got caught in the crossfire. A bit like the Balibo five they were an inconvenience that had to be eliminated.

Doing these nasty deeds in secret is part of their Modus Operandi.

Riding the tiger is exhilarating but you do it at your own peril!

In 1937 my Grandfather who was the equivalent in Indonesia of our Minister for trade was jailed for NOT taking bribes to overlook import and export duties! He was charged with taking the bribes he refused! It was only rich powerful Chinese friends of his that got him out. Yes you guessed it by judicious distribution of bribes. The Dutch Government was too far away to do anything useful. The locals were too busy playing their own dubious games.

Unfortunately the only people who the so called rule of law applies to are the ordinary people. If you upset the powerful it is not much use.

Why am I not surprised that nothing has changed for millennia? Just like in a play, the only thing that changes is the cast. They then go ahead and do it all again!

Bert