Speed doesn't kill

[Peter Ward]

My favourite hobby horse...and yes it seems we've been lied to by our bureaucrats and pollies. This was in the SMH

Safety expert for Mercedes says strict speeding laws are not the answer to lowering road tolls.


A leading safety expert says a crackdown on speeding is not the answer to reducing the road toll.

The vice president of safety development for Mercedes-Benz, Ulrich Mellinghoff, says crash avoidance systems, better roads and more roundabouts would do more to cut the road toll than tougher speeding laws... .....His claims are borne out by German road statistics. In 1972, there were 20,000 deaths on West German roads. In 2009, there were 4100, despite 20 million more people on the road (including the old East Germany).

The full article can be seen here:

http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/speed-doesnt-kill-says-benz-20100304-pjin.html

Speeding motorists in Oz are such a soft target. Sadly, the revenues raised would not be given up easily....as the German option would require better roads, flow control and driver eductaion...and that costs.

[casstony]

The gov't raises taxes by various means, including speeding fines. If we didn't pay the occasional speeding fine they would have to increase taxes in some other way.

Of course, the gov't wastes enormous amounts of money, but that's another topic.

[Peter Ward]

Ah yes...Vicroads ...you get pinged for 3km/hr over down there. One would think that alone would be cause for a little Civil-uncompliance.

[Barrykgerdes]

Of course it is not speed on its own that causes trouble. It is poor driving technique often associated with driving faster than ones capabilities.

The government doesn't really care. They are only interested in the money in which case it is extortion. They closed the option of prison as an option years ago using the case of a traffic offender being bashed in gaol. That really was only an excuse to save them money.

The one thing you can be sure of is that the present method will not change for the better. (unless you elect me as PM then we will see some real changes).;)

Baz;) :thumbsup: :lol:

[casstony]

While speeding fines are annoying, it's too stressful and time consuming to butt heads with bureaucracy over such issues - better to work with the system and focus your efforts on the good things in life.

I'd have a different view if the issue were more serious, such as dragging my offspring off to war - I'd probably die fighting the bureaucracy in that case.

[mental4astro]

Peter,

I live some 2km from a major freeway leading out of Sydney. On a weekend, the roar of hoons drag racing down this freeway from my home at 3 am is frightful.

Speeding does not kill, just like a gun does not kill. It is the idiot behind the wheel or trigger that does.

Don't blame the bureaurocracy if these dills are out there. Something else is failing to tame these goons. And the goons that follow don't learn after their mate's brains are scooped up with a bucket and spatula.

I've seen enough carniage due to these folk. I don't want my family to fall victim to them.

If you can get your gollies on a proper racetrack, great. The public roads are not for racing. Don't forget that. And I'm not a professional driver. I've got two screaming kids in the back and a nagging wife next to me. I'm not looking out for some dope fanging their wheels.

There's a place for everything.

Bring on the car press I say!

[pgc hunter]

Not Vic Roads, but that buffoon Steve Bracks that introduced this law. Saving lives? I'm not buying it. :mad2:

[OneOfOne]

I think there is vast difference between speeding and exceding the speed limit.

Driving on a freeway at 105 is exceeding the speed limit and is nothing more than "naughty", I doubt there are many severe accidents where travelling 5 or 10 kph slower would make any significant differnce. Getting up to 115-120 whilst overtaking a car doing 90 on a divided road is just performing a potentially dangerous action as quickly and safely as practicable, but continuing to drive at that speed after passing is speeding and should be fined. Driving in rain like we had at the weekend at 50 in a 60 zone is probably dangerous/careless driving and should be fined.

If you want to "speed" you should be fined, "speeding" should be reserved for a race track or other organised event. As for some of the hoons caught in Victoria lately, I have a great idea for a new reality show, "Crushers" where they telecast live as a hoon gets to press the button that sends his car into the crusher and we can see the expression on his face.

Speeding as such never killed anyone, it's the sudden stop that does it!

[koputai]

Are you sure it's not just marketing? Aren't Mercedes-Benz trying to flog crash avoidance systems in their new vehicles?

I've spent a large amount of time driving in the last six months, and it's made me realise that there are a lot of people out there who should have their licences taken from them. Sure, it's not speed that kills, but more often than not, the speeders are morons who can't drive fast safely.

Red P platers, seem to all do at least 20kph over the limit, wherever they are, and swerve in and out changing lanes every 7 seconds.
Young women, 50% are texting, the other 50% are holding their phone to their ear.
Tradies, 90% are on the phone, and writing things down in their book, drifting on and off the road.

Remember, half the population is below average intelligence, licencing needs to be a lot more stringent.

Cheers,
Jason.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

With the occasional naughty exception I confine my speeding to track days.
There are loads of helpful suggestions to curb hooning and road toll, but the only obvious one is don't give anyone under 25 a license for a vehicle with more than 40bhp.

Have a "3 strikes" rule for Excessive Speeding /DWI. Mandatory sentencing (Too many Judges drive while drunk to be sensible about it!)

1)-Loss of Drivers Permit and car(s) impounded for 3 months. 30 Days at Her Majesty's service. $2500 fine.
2) Loss of DP for 3 years. 6 months prison. Car(s) impounded and sold or crushed. $10,000 fine.
3) Loss of DP forever. 1 year prison. Car(s) as above $50,000 fine.

Injure / Kill someone while over the limit or excessively speeding?
Skip the three strikes and:
30 years for a serious (debilitating) injury and forfeiture of all assets.
Life in prison (35 year parole period) for death. Forfeiture of all assets.
No government assistance to dependents.

Fair few people care about those nasty images they show during driver's ed classes. In any case the memory soon fades when you plant your foot in a really fast car :D!
People who willingly flout DUI and Excessive speeding laws don't care about anyone else!
But if they KNEW, for a certainty, and that no judge could contermand them, that they were faced with seriously Draconian penalties that would cost them big money and hard-time, well they might at least think twice.

[Lee]

Good start - licence suspensions should be a suspended jail sentence - caught driving while suspended, then spend the rest of the suspension period in jail.
When I was younger and sillier I though speed limits were too low, now I think they are too high. 100km/h on dual-carriage-ways is high enough, non-dual-carriage-ways should be 80 only. Why are we in such a hurry?

[Peter Ward]

In your dreams. Draconian penalties are not handed out in Oz for murder with intent.....so why demonize motorists thus?

Daily the tabloids tell us of stabbings, assaults, shootings and murders....yet rarely does the system impose much more than a decade of punishment, and often imposes no more than a "good behavior bond"

Moving at a good clip does not mean something bad will happen. Moving at speed in totally the wrong environment will almost guarantee disaster, and this is what needs to be educated, rather than a "speed (and nothing else) kills"

More bubble wrapping nonsense IMHO.

The Germans already have the answer....but it seems to me Kindergarten Oz just isn't mature enough the realise we have got it wrong, and to take it on-board a proven system.

[Peter Ward]

Planet Oz is around 4,000km wide...it takes a good deal of time to traverse this land at speeds more suitable for model-T Fords.

We really need to come out of the automotive dark ages, and recognise the fact that, on the right road, many vehicles are very safe at autobahn speeds. Crawling in the right lane does bugger up traffic flow and
forcing cars into same speed clusters needlessly increases traffic density and the risk of an accident.

[TheDecepticon]

My small contribution to this conversation is that the driving test is structured so that everybody can get a license, none of the driving courses or tests deal with actually learning how to drive a motor vehicle properly. It is discrimination to not give someone their license, and in this pansy led country, you can't do that.

[TrevorW]

What's the point in building (or selling) a car that can do 200mph when you legally can't

Driver license suspensions are a waste of time the ones that should be off the road just drive without one

Now a immovable car immobiliser wrist band attached to a perpetrator that will immobilise any vehicle they try and drive would be far more apt than a license suspension

[Miaplacidus]

Hi All,
Right up front I will out myself as someone who doesn't have a lot of sympathy for the view that people ought to be able to drive as fast as they please. But that doesn't mean I'm closed minded to good arguments.

I think one problem that advocates of unlimited speeds have is that no matter how sensible these individuals are, they will be supporting the desires of people who have no sense at all. Also, arguments adduced from the experiences of far countries will always have to be qualified by the obvious fact that all things are not equal. (Why do we always hear about the Germans and not the Italians? I remember hearing someone argue against immunisations because Burma, which has no immunisation program, has lower rates of ADHD than Thailand, which does! As though Burma even counts its cases of ADHD!)

And basically, if someone needs to be driving fast, then almost ipso facto they shouldn't be, since who will deny that the mere act of hurrying makes mistakes more likely? (I wouldn't want my surgeon rushing through my appendectomy just because she had to pick up the kids from school.) How are we going to legislate that calm, unhurried drivers should be free to speed, while those who are pressured to get somewhere urgently should be forced to slow down?

No point getting too stressed by all this, though, since the law is never going to change...

Cheers,

Brian.

[supernova1965]

I like all you guys but if you want to drive fast that's fine but do it on a racetrack I don't believe that you can drive over the limit and ensure everyone's safety it's not just your driving skill in question but the skills of everyone around you. Basically the road is not the place for fast driving and the racetrack is. I have been in the same situation and did my fast driving on the track where it is as safe as it can be made for all concerned.

Anyway that's my say

[Lee]

Yeah and I can see a 4000km long autobahn built in Australia in the next 100 years! :P Somehow I don't think so.

It's cheaper to fly in any case. And a lot faster than even the most uber-Deutsch-autobahn.....

[Lee]

I'm sure everyone who has ever lost control of their speeding car and hit a tree thought they were a much too-good of a driver for that to happen. Even Peter Brock.

[stephenb]

I drive to the speed limit and the road and weather conditions. I must be unique.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Touche (accute accent)!
I lurrrve driving fast. I'm an excellent driver and have no accidents, points or wildlife on my DP.
But I spent a lot of time and money to get this way.
Took advanced driving courses. High-speed handling courses and gained FIA Formula Three, SCCA and BTCA licences.
All up it must've cost me 100K, and I'm not about to chuck that away trying to shave 30 seconds off my commute.:lol:

Those who have pointed out that cabbages can get a license in Australia are correct. It has the slackest training and the easiest test of any country that actually requires you to have a license. And when, in Heaven's name are you people (you KNOW you are!) going to start using indicators!? Italy is the only other country where people ignore them, but they gesticulate wildly to telegraph there intentions, so its OK.:D

Really the rest of the world should be up to Finnish standards. What I spent loads of $$$ learning for sport are basic requirements for passing the driver's test in Finland!
Perhaps we should hire a Hakkinen as Minister of Transport.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

:DAnd another thing.......
Anyone who wants to drive a car should have to spend at least a month on a motorbike or scooter first.
Nothing in the world will teach you how dangerous a car can be, and make you quite as aware of other vehicles, as riding around on a motorbike.

[Octane]

Peter, Alt+0233 (numlocked keypad) will give you the accent you're looking for.

H

[Peter Ward]

As usual the point has been ignored or missed. The german experience is without question, speed does not kill.

The point being: driving like a maniac and driving at speed are not the same thing.

Yet in Oz we are brainwashed to believe they are.

Millions of Germans barrel down autobahns every day with impeccible safety. Asking why might be a good start.

[sheeny]

:thumbsup: I agree.

However, FWIW I was involved in some research many years ago which surveyed motorcyclist accident histories. It seemed at the time (pre Stay Upright courses) that motorcyclists needed to gain about 12 years of regular road riding before their accident stats dropped, regardless of previous off road experience. So that was a 12 year apprenticeship to basically learn your "street smarts"... where to ride, what to watch for, how to scan, how to recognise when you haven't been seen, and how to make yourself seen, how to ride for all the idiots on the road, etc. Fortunately, I made it.:) (I'm not saying that I have no risk on the road BTW).

Another developmental aid I'd like to see is all young drivers spend time volunteering with a road rescue crew. Being involved in rescue did wonders to slow me down, and make me more aware of the hazards and what silly little things can lead to disaster. I am a far better driver for it.

And on the subject of hoons on the road... well, don't get me started... it's is symptomatic of our over-regulated society! :mad2: We all need adventure, and probably the young need it more than us old f... oldies;). But we lock up our national parks, and discourage adventure sports, and make it increasingly difficult for the youth of today to have some fun, adventure and to test themselves. So what do they do? Turn to drugs, and alcohol and the "easy" adrenalin of street racing to name just a few.

I'll stop there. I don't want to hijack the thread entirely.:)

Al.

[sheeny]

I agree entirely.

Al.

[mithrandir]

Before 9/11 that might have been true.

Between the cross town traffic and the dead time at the airports at both ends it is now faster to drive from northwest Sydney to Canberra than it is to fly.

Even with the nanny state limits on the divided road that runs for about 99% of the distance.

[Hagar]

You pretty much encapsulate it all Peter. The big problem is we have no Autobahn quality roads in Australia.

[Octane]

lol. I attest to this, and, have been for the last four years.

It takes 3+ hours in total travel time for a 20-25 minute flight!

H

[Peter Ward]

Beg to differ.

I've driven quite a few times on Autobahns, at speeds according to our various RTA's should have caused instant death (gosh...it didn't happen :) )....but I digress.

To be sure in Oz, while there are not many roads that are similar, there are still some excellent dual carriage way stretches on our wide brown land (notably to Canberra ;).....yet we chug along at 100 or maybe 110km/hr.

[mill]

Yep right tell that to the bike drivers who overtake my van on the left side when i have just overtaken someone on the right and indicate to go to the left on the freeway and then have to swing back because the bike driver is all of a sudden left next to me.
Or bike drivers who drive in between traffic that does 80 or 100Km/h.
I had one hit my mirror because he was too close to me.

[telemarker]

How fast can the germans drive off the autobahns? Where do most of the deaths occur? Broad sweeping statements somewhat hide the truth in many instances. One effect of limiting speed is reducing impact trauma in crashes, a good thing itself. If you view speeding fines as a tax, it is one tax that is easily and legally avoided. :D

[Peter Ward]

Autobahns carry around 40% of all German road traffic. Speeds vary from unlimited to a dynamic (signposted) limit, that depends on conditions.

Despite carrying 40% of the traffic, they account for 3% of fatalities.

In short, it's not how fast you drive, its simply how you drive.

[Jeffkop]

There are points mentioned in this debate that I agree with and disagree with and debates on topics such as this will always have divided opinion thats for sure.

My 5 cents worth (thats 2 cents with rounding) is.

I agree with Peter that his original point has often been overlooked. Sadly that is often the case in discussions about very topical stuff.

Its my opinion, and has been for a long time, that many of the lines we are asked to toe in our over governed society are because its financially better for the government. They jump on ANYTHING that there is no real evidence or fact to support the hype, but because of popular opinion and anecdotal type evidence they see this as an opportunity be seen to be doing something worthy and the bonus is that the real motivation (financial) is smoke screened by catch words like safety, future and the latest, environmental .. AKA carbon trading scheme.

Our rules are made not for the majority, but mostly for the minority. If an individual is too stupid, unreasonable, selfish and a host of other qualities for his/her own good we decide to make a rule that everyone has to adhere to just to keep these people safe. This goes against all the natural ways of attrition that are found in the rest of nature and its not because the governments care for these people, they just see it as another way to keep themselves in a job as well as have a snip.

Specifically, with my point in mind, and pertaining to the topic of the thread, speeding was just another hot topic that fell beautifully into the cash category. They were even brain washing the population with sayings like "Every K over is a killer" ... sending ill informed people out onto the highway with the notion that if they stayed under the speed limit they were at no risk, and that anyone not adhering to this idea was nothing short of a mobile heinous human and that the paramount reason that would ensure you arrived safely at the other end of the journey was your speed. Forget about situational awareness, reading the play, car handling skills, intelligent decision making ... ALL of which are the majority of reasons people come to grief.

In the same manner that gun laws haven't impacted on the amount of people who have met untimely ends neither have speeding fines and speed cameras (and it appears the Germans have fact to support this), its all about milking the cow.

Anyway, thats my input, I know that many wont agree but thats fine.

[telemarker]

And a very different environment from city driving where speeding is a greater problem.

[Peter Ward]

No argument there.

It's *how* you drive. Speed needs to be appropriate.

Hence the good German Doctor's comments. High density areas with lots of unseen hazards would suggest "slow down"

...good road, minimal traffic, excellent vis, why induce driver fatigue and traffic clusters by a mind numbing 100km/hr ??

[Bassnut]

Oh please, its like guns dont kill. Its easy, no guns, no kill (by guns), no speeding, no kill (by speeding).

[sheeny]

Why bother? As a motorcyclist, I agree there are idiots on two wheels as well as four. Motorcycling in some ways is closer to nature than driving a car... you have less protection and generally you will feel the consequences of bad decisions and mistakes far more than a car driver. Natural selection is a proven successful process... why mess with it?

Al.

[sheeny]

Nice one Fred! Big wooden spoon...:D

Al.

[astroron]

I am with Peter on this one, Having driven on the Autobans for over three years when I was a bit younger;) I didn't have any trouble driving along at 110 kms and others driving at 160 kms you just stay in the lane that suits your speed.
I heard a conversation on Tony Delroy's nightlife between Will Hagen a motoring Writer and Broadcaster and a Traffic Police Inspector from WA.
He mentioned what he and a lot of others think is a ridiculous Speed limit on the Eyre Highway Across the Nullarbor and Other long distance roads with very little traffic.
The Policeman used the same argument being put forward by some on this thread.
Having just done that trip I can whole heartedly agree with him it's utter nonsense.
Most Speed limits on major long distance are just a revenue raiser.:mad2:
Who decided that 35kms (60mph) is the safe limit and one kilometer over makes you a "killer on the road":shrug:

[desler]

Hey all, there are a number of points to look at and I've deliberately stayed away from this thread, because as has been said, there will always be divided opinion.

The european licensing system, has vast differences in requirements and skill sets to obtain depending on the Country.

Whilst I would agree the German and to a greater extent the Finnish licensing models are incredibly good, long in time to get and very expensive comparatively. The data suggests that the models work for the better of road safety.

Of note, there is also a cultural difference in attitudes to driving that are far more compelling in judging relative safe speed limits. Driving is seen as a developmental procedure where children are encouraged to join various motor sport categories and undertake extensive real world driver training, not crawling around a few quiet suburban streets and using a couple of well placed stickers on the driving instructors car to enable reverse parking as in the case in Australia. Driving in Australia should be a privilege and not a right as it seems to have become!

The Australian roads are designed and engineered based on standard assessment models.

These models address everything from road surface design, lane width, emergency provisions and off road obstructions. These are generally the things that limit speeds on our local roads.

Does speed kill? A relatively inane question as I've seen peds killed at less than 10K's.

Is it a simple, catchy message to get to Australians via the mass media. Of course it is, who hasn't heard of drink and drive, your a bloody idiot?

The general concept of speed limits is that no Government can accurately assess the driving prowess or lack thereof of an individual driver, thus we have a determined safe speed for various roads based on models that even the worst driver should be able to cope with.

Are there always going to be people who can drive them quicker? Yes... But who can judge? and then from an enforcement issue, who says who can drive faster than others.

The basic rules are determined for the lowest possible denominator based on data. The various media pushes are simply created by marketing people to achieve an easy to understand and deliverable message to the community to enable an attitude change.

Can any speed limit or law protect you in every instance? Of course not; as old Mr Bilbo once said

"It's a dangerous thing stepping out your front door"

My 2 cents worth! How much is that with GST???????:)

[TrevorW]

Speed percei does not kill ask any racing car driver speed in excess of what is practical for the conditions can

Speed camera's where supposedly introduced to reduce the roadtoll what a load of BS all they are a revenue raisers

Speed is not the primary cause of accidents

more Police on the road I say

[GrahamL]

Pete do you still fly jets full of peeps for a living mate ?

your ongoing rants about compliance with bureaucrats and there
rules worrys me on a personal level .. as I hate flying :)

Local roads / and a lot of the hwy included around here ...should all be 80 imo .. they can fill the holes but not level the road.. so its puddles everywhere.

[Peter Ward]

I prefaced this thread as my hobby horse :)

How strange, millions of people travel around the globe daily at Mach 0.79 to 0.86 and the tabloids rarely notice these fatal speeds.

I've spent around 80% of my working life at around Mach 0.84...hence, sorry, I can't subscribe to a "speed kills" (& brain dead IMHO) mantra.

The aviation world has "rules" (eg IFR) that work globally and are designed to save you ass. Yes! I follow them with some devotion.

The motoring world (in Oz) doesn't really have *anything* equivalent. Just a bunch of (revenue raising?) fines and rules such as "stop at at red light"..duh?

Sorry, if you can't work out there is a difference between ploughing through a school zone at 100+km/hr and being on a dual carriageway near Yass at the same speed, you should not hold a drivers license.

[Waxing_Gibbous]

How do you KNOW this stuff??:lol: Kudos!!!

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Sorry Pete,
In general and in principle I agree with you, too many bureaucrats is not enough as far as they're concerned. But when it comes to high-speed hijinks, there are just too many variables to account for. Skill levels, car condition, road condition, weather, wildlife, etc. etc.

As to the Autobahns:
"Millions" is I think, an overstatement.
Having commuted between Waldorf and Frankfurt three times a week for 23 months I can attest that of the many thousands who drive the Autobahn(s), every day maybe 1% drive in the 'no limit' lane and most of them at no more than about 140-160kph.
If they don't scare themselves ****less, they run out of petrol long before any serious mischief occurs :) ( A GT2, Enzo, Murciellago or Veyron at flat-chat will be skosh juice in about 4-7 minutes).

Also, the Autobahns are always being repaired and covered in 50kph zones, so the average speed is closer to 70kph than 100+

Mercedes make big, beefy, buggeringly-fast cars to appeal to those who like same, and God love 'em for it!. But the 'Green' lobby (hiss! boo!) in Germany is ALWAYS after them (and BMW and Opel and, and, and,....), so I would take their "Studies" with a massive grain of salt! As I would Porsche's or Ferraris or 'Ghini's

Skill level, car design,(brakes?), climate and geography all mitigate against high-speed roads here. While the Monash and that horrible stretch of road north of Sydney, might be perfectly respectable commuter highways they are in no way equipped to handle speeds in excess of 120kph. Not with the traffic they carry.

Doubtless there are hundreds of roads in Australia where you could, safely exceed 250kph (my driveway is one :D), even if you had only yourself to kill, but why risk it?
Anyway, driving 'quick' is a lot more fun than driving fast, IMHO of course!

ATB
Peter

[OneOfOne]

Yes, I agree, the old "guns don't kill" has to be one of the most lame statements people use as a defence for their favourite hoby and anyone that uses such petty logic is obviously grasping at straws.

I would like to say that nuclear missiles and bombs don't kill either (exactly the same argument). Did anyone die as a result of all of those Minuteman missiles stored in silos in America after WWII?....unless one fell on them, I think the answer would be a no. Therefore, everyone should be allowed to collect any type of explosives they wish...

Sorry, couldn't resist picking up on a favourite rant of mine :)

[multiweb]

:confuse3: Speed does kill in the wrong hands unfortunately. Doesn't matter how flat and wide the autobahn is or how good your car is. It's all about response time and how much driving experience you have. If you barrel down the free way at 160kph and some idiot gets in the right lane without indicating at 90kph you don't have much time to react. A P-plater won't have developed the reflexes that a more experience driver may have. I also agree that driving at 110kph to Canbera is non sense on such a good road. We could be there in 1h tops instead of 3h.

Maybe they should implement a licence system based on rewards. You start slow as a P-plater. No accidents or infractions? Then you move on to a "faster" licence sort of speak and your maximum speed limit increases. So over time at the other end of the spectrum you will get sound people with experience who are not hoons. Even if they are they can drive anyway. Ideally this should only be implemented on interstate/city roads and freeways . Residential speeds/school areas limitations,etc... are fine as kids are unpredicatable.

[mental4astro]

Peter, are you for real!

You really think that only YOU are responsible for the safety of yourself? Everyone on the road is responsible for the safety of everyone else too.

You are really that confident to aviod all the goons who think they can drive, me included?

And don't make sweeping statements like " only 3% of accidents occur on the autobans" when these accidents I'm quite sure will be 100% fatal (now you disprove that one!)

I will also bet that everyone of these "3%" of accidents ALL involved some combination of overconfidence, overpowered cars and expericenced driver/ underexperiecned driver. These "3% of accidents" left hundreds of people ripped up, along with the remaining 97%.

Like I said, I don't want my family to fall victim to hoons. You are an experienced driver, there is a place for you- the racetrack.

You can afford the car, then you can afford the racetrack fees.

Leave the pot-holed goat tracks to the rest of us.

[mental4astro]

Up in the stratosphere, mate, YOU are the only one doing Mach 0.84! No one else within cooee of you.

The second statement, YES, I agree. But don't confuse it with the upping the speed limit. Very different kettle of fish from your hobby horse.

We have hoons on the road that just can't stop from speeding, totally disregarding the safety of others because "only they are responsible for themself". Upping the speed limit in Oz will only reinforce this false notion in them.

You said yourself that licensing requirements are to soft here in Oz. Upping the speed limit will do nothing for those already with a claytons license in their hands, will it?

[Peter Ward]

Very much so. The point I am trying to make is in appropriately regulated environments, travel at speed can be conducted with excellent safety........Just as it would be madness to place some untrained drunken hoon in the cockpit of a high performance aircraft

BTW it was also the Sydney Morning Herald that ran a piece that stated... (re: autobahn safety) this....

Despite having no speed limit along much of their routes, these massive roads account for 31 per cent of road travel and just 3 per cent of the road toll. A 2005 study by the German interior ministry found sections with unrestricted speeds had the same crash rate as sections with a variety of speed limits imposed.

For sure, not all autobahn users are in the latest 7 series Beemer doing 240km/hr plus. But even those that are still slip back into a right hand lane after overtaking as a matter of courtesy.

Many Oz drivers are mugs in comparison...they chug along a 110km/hr limit freeway, in the right lane at 95-100km/hr and never think to move left.

If we are ever to get serious about the Oz road toll, seems to me serious efforts need to be made in: driver training, flow control, vehicle standards & road standards.....and may well involve *raising* speed limits for some roads.

To morosely focus on speed at the expense of all else clearly isn't working.

[mental4astro]

Unfortunately I don't see increasing the speed limit will help in Oz. I don't think that the hoons in their hotted up Skylines or WRX STi or Beemer will be responsible citizens. They are not now. They won't be then. And we have to share the road with everyone and there is no way in the world that the government will be able to have people up their driving skills to warrant an autoban being built.

The governments of Oz have allowed a situation to develop with the licencing requirements since cars were introduced. We all have to suffer the consequences. No one's fault though.

If you do have the advanced driving skills, then most of the time it will be to avoid dills like me on the road, :(. I wouldn't dream of driving on an autoban with my driving experience. I don't think everyone would recognise their limitions too. Though I'm sure my car would be able to handle 160km/h, I doubt too many cars would, as a population of cars, not models. Very dangerous combination of the two: inappropriate car and lack of 'self knowledge'.

That is the reality of the situation. No?

I like this thread. Good arguements.

[Rob_K]

How ridiculous, of course speed kills! If I hit a tree at 10km/h I flip the mobile and call my insurance company. If I hit the tree a 100km/hr, my wife at home calls the undertaker. Full stop.

What we do is regulate and control lethal speed to reduce the risk of death to an acceptable level. We do this through licensing, road standards, car design and speed limits. If we can reach an acceptable level while allowing 160km/hr or more as in the case of autobahns, terrific. I don’t understand what your argument is Peter – what on earth is it that you’re suggesting? Give us a model for Australian roads.

Cheers -

[multiweb]

You'd be surprised how many cars can reach that speed actually. When I moved here in Oz I was a bit foot heavy on the gas pedal because I was used to it. My first ticket was a speeding fine. Well I was still in overseas mode... The speed limit is 130kph on freeways back there. If you drive at that speed with everybody else in the flow it's fine and quite comfortable even in a small car. Over 150kph you need a solid sedan but it's still ok. Over long distance trips it would help with driver fatigue as well I reckon. And Oz is big .... very big. Driving from A to B in the country at 110kph is a real pita.

Most of the deadly accidents I know of back home happen on country roads in tree trunks because people speed on these two. But on the freeways it's unheard of. Unless there's a massive pile up in fog but that is extremely rare.

[Peter Ward]

To paraphrase Clarkson...traveling at speed never killed anybody. It's coming to an abrubt halt that causes the damage.

Therein lies the key. Regardless of how fast you are going, it's crashing into things that will ruin your day.

So rather than focus on your speedo every few seconds: try looking out and assess the traffic to flow, keeping a safe distance from the car in front, anticipating hazards, drive predictibly, don't talk on the phone, SMS, have a shave, eat a big mac, sip your coffee, light up a cigarette, do your lippy etc. etc. This would all come under the heading "driver training"....which is woeful in Oz.

Rather than have our young people complete some assinine 120 hour logbook, give then some real training. eg wet wether, skid control, emergency braking, collision avoidance skills etc.

Sure it will cost, but the current testing regime of pottering aound 40-50km/hr, reverse parking and a hill start is a joke.

Adpot the German model for DIU. Zero tolerance, and if you cash and injure someone, go to gaol, ifs, buts or excuses.

Get in you local members face and demand better roads.

Sack the bureaucrats who thought it was a good idea to have 3 speed zone changes within a few hundred metres on the same stretch of road.

Get the coopers to target irresponsible & dangerous driver behaviours: eg tailgating, failure to indicate, not giving way, not moving to the left on freeways, double parking etc.

Get crappy cars off the roads. I have no problem with the current NSW annual roadworthy check, it should be national and more stringent.

[Rob_K]

Aha, there we have it Peter, at last you've come clean! "I drive a beamer and I'm a really good driver. Why should I have to put up with laws that accommodate less experienced drivers and people with less money to spend on expensive cars when I could be baggin' it up the highway at a billion k's?"

Well done mate! ;) :lol: :D

Cheers -

[multiweb]

Hey Rob do you really believe the law about speed limits is to be accommodating to people or save their lives? If it was in the best interest of people on the roads all cars would be mechanically fitted not to exceed a specific speed limit. Overseas they'll fine you for doing 140kph instead of 130kph, here you'll get the same for doing 120kph instead of 110kph. Different numbers same BS. ;)

[Hagar]

All the winging in the world won't change the law. If it';s 110KM then you deserve to be booked at 111KM. Actual.

If the only car Peter could afford was an old beatup hilman capable of 100KM/hr max them this post wouldn't have even started.

Driving a car at speed is best left to those who do it on a race track. Leave the rest of us to dawdle around our highways.

[pgc hunter]

You cannot be serious :screwy:


I think he is referring to the flawed principle of slow speed limits on wide open freeways and ridiculous tolerences, rather than anything to do with the top speed of his ride.

Peter has certainly made some valid points here, and I'd definately rather have him in charge instead of the incompetent plonkers we suffer with now wrapping us in cottonwool and over regulating every single aspect of our lives big brother style :mad2:

[Miaplacidus]

I live in Tassie. Terrible roads. In fact, the liberals are standing on a platform to upgrade the main road between Hobart and Launceston. Personally, it is such a shocking road I think it should be restricted to 80 km/h, but if I try and drive at that you can imagine what flak I would cop from the log trucks and everyone else in a hurry to commute. A speed limit all too often makes people assume that you should be driving at it, whereas in reality it is too often too fast for the conditions or the car. I'm happy my little car can't go above 80. The rest of you can lump it and learn to slow down. Your lack of planning is not my emergency.

[Peter Ward]

You've missed the point entirely & I don't drive a Beemer.

Rust buckets that drop oil, with bald tyres or stuffed shocks, dodgy brakes and no indicators have no place on public roads....demotition derby's perhaphs ;)

Can't afford the repairs? Then use public transport.

I don't care what cars other people drive, so long as the're roadworthy.

If we can get a system that produces drivers that are predictable, safe and courteous, I'm firmly of the opinion the speed part of the equation rapildy becomes meaningless......as when you comply with the first three (eg the German model) your speed by definition will be appropriate for the conditions.

[stephenb]

100% behind you on this Doug. Obey the speed limit and you won't get booked.


What's the hurry?

Our street is 50kmh but most drivers wouldn't be doing any less than 65-70kmh. If you drive to the speed limit what's the problem with that?

Secondly, drive to suit the weather and road conditions.

I was driving home from work on the last 4 days of this weekend - with all the bad weather Melbourne has experienced - the conditions were terrible. Sheets of rain pelting down on the freeways (Tullamarine/Citiylink and Calder) I was driving at 70-80kmh as this seemed like the most comfortable speed given the shocking conditions. And what was happening? I was being passed by every other motorist doing at least 100-110kmh. I'm talking little hatchbacks, vans, tradies utes with tandam trailers. Many of them also tailgating. I doubt any othese drivers would have been able to take appropriate action if they lost control or the car in front of them suddenly braked. I was leaving at least 5 seconds distance in front of me.


I believe, Speed does kill, because a majority of the driving population do not know how to handle a vehilce at high speed. I would rather lower speed limits in my area, and on the roads that I drive on, than speeding motorists, who "think" they can handle a car at high speed. I often say that those who continually push the "speed doesn't kill/guns dont kill people..." are often big heros with little appendages who are trying to compensate with fast and shiny toys, perhaps longing for a lost or mispent youth, wanting to take out their frustration, or just simply show off or prove they are better than others.

[Peter Ward]

Beg to differ.

In a seminal study (Solomon 1964) of 10,000 vehicle crashes it was established it is actually safter to travel 10km/hr faster than the surrounding traffic, compared to 20km/hr slower.

It is essential to note however, keeping up with the traffic flow, regardless of the posted limit offered the lowest risk of a crash.

[rat156]

The hurry is I've been caught behind some slowpoke doing 20kmh under the speed limit because he can't drive at the speed limit or is one of the "Speed Kills" nazis that think that they can slow everyone else down. "There, everyone is safer, and I'm responsible" types, you know the ones...



If that is indeed the case ask the local plod to place a speed camera in your street, there is no excuse for exceeding the speed limit in suburban housing. Book them.



Might I suggest that the one who may have caused people to brake suddenly was the car doing 30-40kmh less than everyone else. I also doubt that anyone, no matter how fast they are going can do little about their predicament after they have "lost control". What is "the appropriate action" anyway? Surely you're not advocating swerving into another lane? The ONLY appropriate action is to stand on the brakes, if you have ABS as hard as you can. Cars are engineered to take a fair hit front and back, it's side impacts that are really dangerous. Of course if you're one of the people here bragging about the tyre wear on another thread (>120k kms) then you would probably stop sometime next week anyway.




So the problem is not with the education of people to be able to drive at reasonable speed, it's with the speed itself. Utter rubbish. Fatigue kills as well, and if you drive at a speed a bit faster than the boring 100/110kmh then you have a tendency to be more engaged in the drive and less likely to succumb to fatigue. The speed usually has little to do with the reason a person loses control of their car, it is usually misattention by boredom, talking on the phone, texting, constantly checking the speedo etc.

Cheers
Stuart (looking forward to Phillip Island this weekend!!)

[stephenb]

So, every driver MUST travel at exactly the posted speed limit? 5 or 10kmh under is a crime is it? This small variation is not going to cause any issues, only to the idiot hoon who comes tearing up behind me at 120kmh who thinks they're Peter Perfect and refuses to be travelling behind someone. So many drivers have the attitude that they want to be "up front" and at the front of the driving pack and not following someone else on the road (see my previous comment re: small appendages and big cars)




Well my idea of appropriate action to start with is to have a safe stopping distance in front of me. I wouldn't even consider swerving into another lane.



Firslty, check your facts. I did not state that I had been travelling on tyres for 120k http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=57146 I stated 95k and they are perfecly legal and were checked by my mechanical and my local tyre mechanic every 10k. And for the limited driving this vehicle does, all parties are happy with their condition. Please check your facts before posting. ;)


It seems that the the trend growing out of this argument in general is that everyone needs to speed around 10-20k's faster than the other driver? Wow then if everyone takes this attitude and applies it in practice, what is the final speed we are all collectively doing?

If the arguement is that the speed limits are too low, then lobby your local member, or whatever you have to do.

It seems that good, responsible drivers who do all the correct things on the roads, who obey the laws and road rules are the ones who get shot down in these types of arguments. If you like to speed don't whine like a girl when get caught. Personally, there could be speed camera on every street corner in every suburb and town in Australia - it would'nt phase me one iota.

Anyway this arguement never goes anywhere on forums like this.

[Peter Ward]

No, not with blinkered dogma such as yours.

The Germans dropped their road toll by a factor of around 4x.

We've been told "speed kills!" "speed kills!" and have seen posted speed limits slowly lowered acoss the nation because of this ineffective mantra.

Yet, in the same period our toll went up! Even blind Freddy can work out we've got it wrong.

[pgc hunter]

Once I almost rear-ended a car dawdling on the freeway. I glanced away momentarily to check on something and everyone infront suddenly hits their brakes....ofcourse the usual colourful language indicating surprise and shock is uttered...you know...what da hell is going on here.. and after those 4 or 5 cars move into the right lane to overtake... I find it's some nob doing 70-80 in the 110 zone. Needless to say he copped a full dose of my horn as I passed him and some nice little gestures with it.

It's idiots like this that cause accidents; not doing 5 over the limit on a wide open stretch of freeway as our pollies are so hellbent on ramming down our throats in the name of revenue raising "saving lives" :rolleyes:

Wipe of 5......wipe my.... ;) ;) ;)

[Karls48]

Speed kills, alcohol kills, smoking kills, guns kills, pollution kills, salt kills, fat kills, drugs kills, sleeping too little kills, eating too much kills, eating too little kills – and just about anything you do in your life has been scientifically proven will kill you. Hell, I should be dead for at least forty year. Lets face it – Living is a health hazard. You are born to die.
Memento mori..

[pgc hunter]

I suggest we ban life. That way no one can die. Last call for life oppression...paging Mr Brumby to the thread

[Hagar]

If you had been paying attention to the job at hand you may well have saved yourself the stupid indignity of uttering such profanities.
The only one who looks stupid in this case is you. If the car in front had been a police officer on or off duty you may well have ended with a bill into the bargain.

[pgc hunter]

I had to check my speedo to make sure I wasn't 3 over the limit.



I would have thanked them on the spot because as I recall I was dangerously low on TP that day. :thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

:lol:

Ok so what have we got?

A few (clever) glib responses, and not real evidence "speed kills" = truth

The German model I find somewhat compelling.

It would be great to drive around Oz at a responsible clip, without some bureaucrat/polly/dope telling me I'm gonna die purely because my speedo says "limit" +3 km/hr.

If you agree, how do you act as agent of change??

[supernova1965]

I can only say this if I am obeying the speed limit and someone comes up behind me at 120 or 130. Then I am in the right and the one behind me is in the wrong the vast majority of people obey the speed limits so that makes the anyone going faster than the speed limit in the minority and they are not the only ones on the road and need to take the conditions into consideration and that means the people obeying the limits. And the few that for some reason go under the limit they are dangerous as well.


I still say if you want to go fast do it in a place that is meant for it.


Please all be safe I want to be able to keep talking to you all and not hear the bad news that we have lost a member of our ISS family.:D

[PeterM]

A bit of googling shows that "advances in vehicular safety" have helped bring the road deaths down in Germany, so you now have a better chance of surviving. Maybe you "just lose your legs" or be "wheelchair bound" for the rest of your life but at least you weren't in deaths column, just another of the 400,000 plus injured on German roads every year - seems they still have a problem on German roads (yes the injuries also dropped in the figures but 400,000 is still an awful lot). A huge number - even after recent massive increased penalties (euro dollars) and point losses (geez, doesn't this sound all too familiar). The autobahn is not the be all and end all for the driving elite as it seems only about 40% of it is open speed (providing your car meets all the requirements) - with tunnels, curves, repairs etc, etc dropping the speeds down to where you may as well push it. The figures I found suggest 10% of all fatalities are on the autobahn. Marked and unmarked police vehicles regularly patrol the autobahn along with very high tech cameras (sounding all too familiar?) but why, if this is the playground of the driving elite? someone is telling porkys. The Germans sure think there is a problem.
I would say what a load of "bollocks" - speeding does contribute to the carnage.

http://octane.ie/news/article.php?id=517

PeterM.

[Miaplacidus]

Well, that bit's easy. If we want to have similar stats to the Germans we need a near-hundred fold increase in the population density (230/km2 vs 2.6/km2) so that we can earn enough taxes to pay for, as well as justify, a beautiful network of state-of-the-art freeways, uncompromising vehicle standards, and world-class driver education. And then we need to spend a life-time dedicated to altering the national attitudes of drivers towards rights and responsibilities.

(I'm just hanging in there with this thread because I want to get my post count over 900.)

:)

[Miaplacidus]

And furthermore...

[Peter Ward]

Lies, dammed lies, and statistics.

There is no doubt operating *any* vehicle poorly at high velocities has serious consequences.

It's the "operating poorly" bit that needs to be nipped in the bud. The aviation world sorted this out decades ago, without revenue raising or bubble wrapping.

The German system is not perfect, buy even by your figures 10% of fatalities for 30% of the total traffic simply does not add up. So who's telling porkies?

[rat156]

No, not everyone has to travel at exactly the speed limit, but I would like to, usually. What gives you the right to criticise me for traveling at the speed limit, as your initial post did (the people who didn't slow down in the rain), just because you don't feel confident in either your experience or the ability of your car to handle the conditions? I have had experience driving at real speed on a soaked racetrack on cut slicks, once you learn to read the signals coming from the car it's not that much harder than normal driving. Calling people names and insinuating that they are lacking in any department is unproductive and insulting, it doesn't contribute to the debate.






Did you look behind you for that Semi?



I'd ask you to do the same, common courtesy. I did not state that it was YOU that was bragging about the high mileage tyres. In fact I didn't bother to check the thread (any action on it?) to see if you were one of the posters, my memory isn't that good to remember either. If you read the posts I made on that thread I was concerned with the quality of the tyres in the first place, tyres that last for ages in general give up less grip in the first place. Perhaps the other people on that wet road had decent tyres on their car ans their stopping distance was reduced?



Well, we're limited to the speed of light...



Pointless, they don't listen and don't think they have to, afterall what they're doing is for "safety". This is the crux of Peter's original post, speed is not necessarily unsafe. Excessive speed is, well, by definition, excessive, the problem is that some people think that excessive is "faster than they drive".



Well, I hope I'm not in a car anywhere near you, you must be so obsessively checking your speedo you can't be watching the road, or you're going so slowly that even a G-Wiz would overtake you. But the part of the statement I really take objection to is the "good, responsible drivers..." bit, implying that I am not. Arguments get shot down because they aren't supported by facts, the Speed Kills myth is supported by platitudes and revenue.

Cheers
Stuart

[desler]

Introducing a licensing model isn't going to change anything in your life time Peter. These dramatic changes in social policy takes decades to introduce and costs more than most of us could imagine.

What Government is going to introduce a scheme that cannot bring them an identifiable gain within a two term span?

You'd be very popular introducing a 4 year licensing scheme that would cost the average motorist $50K to obtain!

The fact is that in Australia, the driving culture is what it is today.

The four introductions to reduce road trauma.

1. (Seatbelts)
2. (Drink Drive Enforcement)
3. (Vehicle Design)
4. (Speed Camera's)

ABS statistics don't lie! True they can be skewed to show anything you like, but the raw data doesn't lie!

The system was designed and implemented by the Government of Australia for Australians. Simple as that!

Laws are simply the Governments' way of controlling behavior. Do we all agree with all laws ????? Questionable But do we all choose to live in this wonderful land?


If the answer is yes, learn where the brake pedal is, and get on with life!
Oh and buy a couple of drive day passes at your local motor sport venue and have fun!

Darren

[Hagar]

Sound like your lies and statistics quoting a report from 1965 40+ years old.

Speed even killed on horseback.

As for the aviation industry, I don't know what you call bubble wrapping. Flying xKM appart and X ft vertical separation. Hard to crash into nothing.

[Peter Ward]

So many point you've raised, but I zeroed in on this one. $50K and four years to learn how to drive????

Pure BS!

You can get a commercial pilot's license for less in both time and money...

What you have failed to address, despite our (almost draconian) legislative measures, kids are still dying on our roads in the same numbers.

I am not suggesting for a second that driving at high speed in the wrong environment is safe. Speed needs to be appropriate, and a limit sign does bugger all IMHO to make this determination.

I am suggesting that we look at professional instuction, a rudimentary physical examination, theory and a rigorous driving test. Might cost $1k-$2k.

I'd pay that to keep my kids alive, alert & well trained on our roads.

[Peter Ward]

That's just glib & shows ignorance.

CASA's "crash comic" lists dozens of incidents, across a very broad spectrum of operations, sadly many are fatal.

They never say "speed was a factor".....but there are *lots* of errors/omissions/failures that can and will kill you...and if you simply choose to ignore them, it's simply a matter of "when" rather than "if".

[Hagar]

Ignorance my backside.... At the speeds modern aircraft are flying at they must maintain these separations to allow reaction times in the event of a failure of something or someone. This sort of separation is BUBBLE WRAPPING. It can be called nothing more and nothing less.
Military aircraft fly at much tighter separations but are only usually short flights and extreme training in this type of flight.

Just sounds like sour grapes. Fast car, no where to use it. Try a race track and have some fun. If you crash there you only kill yourself. A blowout at 200KM/hr usually doesn't leave many survivors in the drivers car or the one coming towards it.

A sneeze or a bug blown through the vent system landing in your eye can distract the driver enough to cause a crash at high speeds or even low speeds.
Sitting here reading these posts gives me the feeling that you and Stuart seem to think your driving skills should allow you to drive at whatever speed you feel like. At least Stuart practices on the track. The fact is our laws, as they stand say you can't. Get over it, go to a race track or go to Germany and drive your heart out and pray you don't end up as a German statistic.

[Miaplacidus]

There is another slant on all this. Economists (e.g. see Sam Peltzman's famous study from the University of Chicago) have demonstrated that adding safety features to cars serves mainly to increase the number of accidents while keeping the fatality rate much the same (i.e. the same number of deaths but representing a lower proportion of total accidents). It is as though seat belts and air bags give an added sense of security which leads drivers to take greater risks. Similarly, spears attached to steering wheels pointing directly at the heart ought to lead to fewer accidents but with a higher proportion of fatalities.

So there you go. Stick a spear on your dash board and drive as fast as you like.

901.

[barx1963]

Personally I can think of nothing nicer than haveing an Autobahn from say Melbourne to Sydney, up to the point of having to pay for it!
Germany, as pointed out previously has a much higher population density, we are a huge country with 20 million people, a road like that is going to cost billions, let alone building a network.
So I propose, if you want to, those that like to rip along at 150-200k be allowed to get a special license which has no speed limit, and the fee for that license pays for the unlimited roads, should end up only a few million per rev head, and only those with these licenses are allowed to use the unlimited road. That way everyone's happy.
The analogy with aviation is simply spurious. Any accident in a plane is usually taking place at a high speed in any place, so of course it rarely if ever looked at as a factor in crashes.
Simply put, if every driver drove at or below the speed limit, even relatively unskilled, stupid, uncoordinated drivers significantly reduce their risk of injury and death. We could put in place vastly more rigorous testing, education and training for drivers and then happily increase speed limits, but that is all going to COST more.

[that_guy]

is this like how the governments of different countries didn't ban cigerettes cos it gave en hips of money?

[rat156]

Not at all, the first post of this thread, and indeed every one that I've posted (and I think all of Peter's) have not advocated exceeding the speed limit. They may say that the speed limit is too low, but they don't advocate exceeding them. The problem is that the government is lowering speed limits on perfectly good roads for no apparent reason. Take the Monash for example or the bit between the Westgate and the tunnels, or the tunnels themselves. The new outbound part of the freeway has just been finished(?), yet the speed limit on this perfectly safe portion of road has dropped by 20kmh. OK whilst there was roadworks on that section of road I was one of the few that actually took any notice of the reduced speed. But now it looks as though these limits seem to be permanent, to be followed no doubt by fixed speed cameras...

This sort of thing is indefensible on safety grounds, apparently the roadworks have made the road MORE dangerous. The bit between the Westgate and the tunnels is so confusing now I don't think anyone can do more than 80 without missing their exit, but it'll stay at 80. The Westgate bridge itself, dropped from 100 to 80, then they installed (flawed) speed cameras.

To make my point again, lowering speed limits has usually nothing to do with road safety. Do you think the people doing 140-160kmh really care what the posted speed limit is? It's all about revenue with the smokescreen of road safety. While the government is pushing this down our throat they ignore the real problems, unsafe roads and unsafe drivers. So we need to reject "Speed Kills" as a fallacy and get them to train drivers better and fix the roads.



Why should I, my family, my friends etc. share the road with stupid or uncoordinated drivers? How many of us would pass a skills test in a licence test, even the joke that they call a test in Victoria? I'm pretty certain that most would fail the theory test in the first place so never get into a car. Put simply, a licence should be a privilege, not a right, if you are incompetent, you are incompetent, get off the road.

BTW I have previously replied to Glenluceskies on this thread, this may have come across as a personal attack, but this is not what I meant to do, it's just that his posts were the most recent ones that mentioned the platitudes that I do not like. So sorry if you thought that to be the case, but it wasn't personal, just arguing the point.

Cheers
Stuart

P.S. The attitudes displayed here have helped me to understand why some people do (to me) ridiculously low speeds on the freeway. I still don't understand but at least I know why.

[Jeffkop]

These are the very same people Stuart who think they are LUCKY if they make it to the other end of their journey, and its all because the car controls them not the other way around. Their car the other cars the situation, its all happening too fast for them, they have little confidence and so the faster they go the less uncertain they become.

As has been mooted, these people unfortunately probably shouldnt be on the road (shouldnt have been issued with a license in the first place) and are MORE of a safety risk than someone doing 5ks over the limit IMO.

[rat156]

Forgot about this gem...

Firstly Ferrari's and even lowly Alfa's have filters over the air intake for the HVAC system this prevents bugs from getting in, except in the race car, where I removed them to save weight.

Next, if a sneeze is enough to distract you so that you crash your car at any speed you shouldn't have a driver's licence. Driving is all about being aware of what is around you, you should be able to take your eyes off the road for a second or two and not crash, how else do you change lanes on the freeway? I assume that you do a head check? If not, then again no licence for you! (Sorry Seinfeld!).

Driving is a risky business, it is most likely the most risky undertaking that any of you will do every day, yet we treat it like a game. "You're going faster than I think is right", a point or three off your licence and a bit of a hit to the bank balance, if you run out of either points or money, you're out of the game for a while. However if you die in this "game", no restarting the level. Road safety is serious, too serious and complicated to be encapsulated in a simple catch phrase like "Speed Kills" or "Wipe off 5", particularly when there is good evidence that they are wrong (see the European studies, and several US studies where they've ditched the "double nickel" in many places). The government needs to treat the problem rather than raising revenue and telling everyone to slow down.

Cheers
Stuart

[Peter Ward]

The vast majority of operations are in Class E airspace. i.e see and avoid
self separation....in fact in OZ ATC coverage is non existant below a few thousand feet in much of the country.:P

[OneOfOne]

Logically, you can see the reasoning behind things like "wipe off 5". If you have an accident at 105kph, you will hit an object more than 5kph faster than if you were doing just 100 when you reacted...simple Newtonian physics. However, if you were only doing 95, you would have hit at an even slower speed. And take another 5 off you may even avoid the accident. Applying the logic of "but if you were driving slower, you may not have an accident" has a natural conclusion of travelling at zero velocity means you won't hit anything...you may still GET hit though.

The statement may be logical, and even self evident, but the ultimate conclusion is ludicrous...every one should drive at a velocity of zero.

[Peter Ward]

This one too.

My daily ride is a station wagon. Yes, I have done some a track days.

I have nil demerits & am not advocating breaking the law.

I am saying by fixating only on speed our system doesn't seem to be working very well, and there are better systems elsewhere that take a difference focus, which our dim pollies and bureaucrats continue to ignore.

[desler]

Speed,


No-ones saying outright that speed Kills.

But increased speed does remove time and distance from obstructions.
When you take away time and distance you loose options!

I know there are lots of people with incredibly fast reaction times, but these natural reactions are useless unless you train and refine your skill sets.

Muscle memory is something that gets developed over time with repetition and practice!

Judging who does this sort of driver development is unmeasurable in our society, therefore speed limits are set to the standard assessment model.

I certainly would love to halve my travel time! Who wouldn't? But the simple fact remains, we are not all equal, so sometimes those with higher skills need to plod along safely with the masses!

I'm going to charge 4c +GST for that little rant.

Just remember to don't drink drive, It's laundry detergent!
Be Alert,,,,what's a lert?
Speed Kills,,, if you inject too much!
Life, Be In it,,,,, Be in what?


And my personal favorite















Darren

[Miaplacidus]

Fair enough. I don't want to share the road with these people either. But what about all those skilled and coordinated drivers who simply do not want to drive at the speed limit? Such people exist, who enjoy driving just as much as the next person, but at a slower speed. Who is going to be so arrogant as to say they shouldn't be allowed on the very roads they pay taxes to maintain? As far as I am aware, there is no law saying everyone must travel as close to the speed limit as practical. (I might be tempted to point out that people driving fast are more likely to be stupid and uncoordinated.)

What about the foot path? Do you just push past the dawdlers and tell them they shouldn't be out unless they walk at a "reasonable" pace? Who is to say who is "out of step"?

[multiweb]

:lol: ... and don't forget that one: everyone eating their greens and veggies eventually die. ;) ... so it's not good for you either. :P

[desler]

Who says they only fixate on speed?


The television commercials?

Lets look at some of the other marketing:


Buckle up and live.
Drink drive, you're a bloody idiot!
Look Bike!
Secure your load!
Drug driving!

I'm not sure whether you get access to our TAC commercials. But I would be more than happy to arrange a 20 year anniversary DVD to be delivered to you!


And now some stats.


In 1970 there were about 5 Million registered cars in Australia.
There were 3,798 road fatalities or 30.4 deaths per 100,000.

In 2003 there were about 13.5 million registered cars.
There were 1,633 road fatalities or about 8.2 deaths per 100,000.

A dramatic decrease! Some argue, like unemployment statistics in Economics that there is a natural rate of deaths / serious injury per 100,000 users. The real question is what is that natural rate. And given the data over the last 33 years, Most people would say we should continue to do what we've been doing.

Believe it or not, people travel from all around the world to study our road safety strategies.

So we can all rant and rave all we like, but the simple fact remains that the Governments over this 33 year period have funded and promoted strategies that save lives.

Darren

[Peter Ward]

!! You live in Victoria don't you?? Been pinged for 3km/hr over yet?



I understand this sole measure made the biggest change, and do applaud Oz's early adoption of seatbelts.




No argument there, but the reality is, the penalties, particularly with a death involved, are often a joke. "good behaviour bond, $1500 fine and can't drive for 6 months"....pathetic.

As for the rest...window dressing at best.

Automotive manufacturers over the same period have implemented some excellent primary and secondary systems which the Bureauracy have shown little or no development in. Airbags, ABS, traction control, side impact bars, crumple zones and safety cages have played no small part in the Oz road toll reduction.

Having everyone fixate on their speedos to avoid a fine, rather than avoid a crash, is bad policy....which clearly the Germans have moved beyond, but we simply seem incapable of taking onboard.

[desler]

3 k's over

Simply not possible!!!!!!!!


Get your facts right. Set speed minus tolerance. A quick internet search will show you the correct tolerances, show how the speeds are calculated and the positions of all camera's. But hey, it's more fun to sprout absolute BS isn't it!

They simply don't show the alleged speed on the infringements anymore!
Gee the amount of Gumbo's who actually listen to talk back radio astounds me!!!!!!

Although If you can't tell the difference between 110 and 120 on a Freeway, perhaps you need a few more track days!

Have a great day!

Darren

[desler]

And just further to your comments about penalties handed out to drink drivers who cause death and serious injury!

That is not a road safety issue, nor a traffic issue. Please direct all of your correspondence to the relevant department of Justice!

My understanding is Judges / Magistrates are supposed to apply the community expectations in relevant sentencing, Oh how quickly we judge!

Would you like that job? Give it a rest, the total number of moral / ethical decision a Pilot is left to make without a flowchart and probability matrix is minimal.

You have set procedures in almost any situation and very rarely, if at all make any decisions outside of set policies and procedures. (Well, we hope you don't)

In all my trolling around in libraries that I've done, I have yet to find an instruction manual on how to administer the law or hand out punishments.

Maybe the moral decisions aren't as easy to dish out in the real world! ie, without an instruction manual!

Take it easy!

Darren

[Peter Ward]

OK, having paid for my daughters transgressions (in my car) in Mexico, they give you 3km/hr for the speed, plus another 3km/hr tolerance.

Amusingly, I heard in Victoria, many drivers successfully argued that their (Government approved) speedometers were only good to +/- 10%.

Hence asked how could they be booked for doing 106km/hr in a 100km/hr zone when they had no way of knowing they were offending....as for being dangerous?? Laughable at best.

The fix? The ADR's for speedometers was changed in July 2006....stating new vehicle speedometers were not allowed to under-read. Gee that's made things safer hasn't it?

Pity if you have a car more than 4 years old....

[desler]

For a start,


Victorian Government has no say in federally mandated ADR's.

The ADR's state +or- 10k at 100 kilo. As for the your change to the ADR's, I haven't looked at any changes but as a professional driver I have never driven a vehicle that was doing more than 100 when the speedo shows 100, normally in the 92 to 96 range, but that's another story. I can tell you however, that a little research would of provided you with the information that if that was your daughters first transgression with a 12 month period in Victoria, she, like all people are entitled to a warning!

But thanks very much for the donation.

If it's not her first transgression, well, so be it. The difference is that you said booked doing three K's over the limit.

No she wasn't , Simple as that!

I'd also liked to get adopted by a family who'd pay my fines!!!!!
Do you also take the demerit points?

Darren

[Nesti]

The Autobahn doesn't have Kangaroos. We have 100x more km's of asphalt than what the Germans have, we can't elevate roads or even fence them off.

I would agree on in the case of metro Freeways.

[Nesti]

LOL, and Oxygen is highly corrosive, DON'T ANYONE BREATHE!!!!!

[Outbackmanyep]

I'd like to add a point, in regards to speedo tolerances and misreads, tyres make a hell of a difference too, especially in 4wd vehicles, where different brands of tyre have different rolling diameters and different speedo readings as a result! This will also affect odometer readings.

As for speed limits, i reckon we need more overtaking lanes, not reduce or increase limits.
I don't care how good a driver you think you are accidents can still happen and ruin everyone's day, fatigue is also serious issue.
What about Stop revive Survive?? I heard that if you stop and eat/drink something it actually slows your metabolism and makes you even more tired.

[Peter Ward]

Acually....according to Lovelock, breathing O2 is why we get Cancers....unfortunately there are no alternatives :)

[Peter Ward]

The infringement notice said: Detected speed, 106k/hr.

Alleged speed 103km/hr....ie the speed she was being booked for, (and what they'd be putting to the Magistrate if you were to bother the courts)......all in a vehicle (1996 BMW) that has a speedo mandated to only be good to +/-10%.

No revenue raising going on down there.....:mad2:.....I'm amazed the Vic's put up with it.

[taminga16]

A point to consider is that Germany has a road and traffic system that will support faster travel and more vehicles Australia has no such system, goodness we cannot even settle on the colour of road markings from state to state, There is no standard for the placement signage or consideration of each and every road user, Every time a new sign is installed it is attached to yet another post (more stuff to hit). As an example I pay a $50.00 per year 'Safety Levy' above the CTP component on my motorcycle Reg, this Tax is then spent on improving 'Motorcycle Blackspots', one such Blackspot on the Warrandyte/Ringwood Road in Warrandyte received a treatment recently that included improving the shoulders of the road, the installation of clearer road edge markings and corner marking, as soon as the works were finished the Local Council declared the improved shoulders parking areas and installed parking signs indicating same, Vic Roads have since informed me that it is beyond their control. We need A SYSTEM first!

Greg.

P.S. On another note, In an earlier post someone made mention of time over distance whilst driving, A QUESTION FOR ALL, HOW FAR DOES ONE TRAVEL EVERY SECOND AT 60klm/hour, and why did you have to Google the answer?

[Nesti]

16.66. meters.

I cheated, I used my calculator as my math isn't quite that good...but why should I know that? Please don't say that it's important for safer driving...it's just a number, and I don't know anyone who can estimate distances accurately.

[taminga16]

My point was that as drivers we should be focussing on VMG and not speed, add that to the fact that Joe average takes about 1.5 seconds to react and then it is important. There would not be too many of us that did not have a tape measure, or who may have wondered about the distance between white lines on the road, who have an idea of the width of the average house block or who have never stood at the end of a 22 metre cricket pitch! Speed is not the issue, it is what we do with it.

Greg.

[rat156]

No they do, several people here have repeated the mantra "Speed Kills".

That's what the slogan is and some people can't seem to understand that it means excessive speed may cause an accident.

Cheers
Stuart

[rat156]

OK, but don't then enforce your rate of speed on me. People do this all the time, by traveling in the RH lane at "their" speed, oblivious to the train of cars behind them. Worse still are the "I have to be in front of you" drivers that for some reason have to be in front, then when they get there slow down? I have a very good cruise control, which at most varies by 2kmh on a downhill run, on the Hume on the way either to or from Winton there are usually dozens of drivers like this, they overtake me then slow down, so I have to overtake them, whence they speed up again. I usually just drop back 500 or so metres, then they give up and disappear. Does anyone know what they're doing? I know my car is nice to look at, but I'm not, particularly when I'm peed off by one of these idiots.

You may have been tempted to point out "that people driving fast are more likely to be stupid and uncoordinated", in fact you did, just by writing it down (did I type that out loud?). I might point you to another thread where unsupported inuendo should not be posted, but I can't be bothered. If you're going to accuse someone of something then do so, but be sure to have some sort of proof is all I ask.



Not on the footpath, but I detest people in shopping centres who dawdle or walk diagonally across the paths. This may stem from an intense hatred of shopping in shopping centres though, but it does really annoy me.

Cheers
Stuart

[desler]

Stuart,


I will finish off my participation in this thread and going to Snake Valley with your right, some do say it.


The same as they say lots of other things. The point is the speed limit in our system is the speed limit! The advertising for the masses is Speed Kills.


I don't know how marketable "speed kills in certain circumstances" would play on the local radio station, but marketing is not really my thing.

Anyway, get some rest we have good skies and weather coming so lets just get out under the stars and do what we enjoy!

Darren

[rat156]

[QUOTE=desler;568209]Who says they only fixate on speed?


The television commercials?

Lets look at some of the other marketing:




Excellent, but not seen anymore. TAC website only lists 5 phases of campaign, but also only lists from 1992



Again excellent, now combined with the drugs message. Has had 25 phases of advertising since 1989. Particularly successful these two must have saved the majority of the lives you mention below.


Only if you want to target them! (that thread is now closed I think). Small presence on the small screen, but worthwhile.



Don't remember too many ad campaigns featuring this, a few signs on the road is all.



Again excellent, now combined with the drink driving ones. Has had five phases of advertising

But you forgot

"Speed Kills", which is not listed on the TAC website, don't know why.
"Wipe Off 5" which has gone through 11 phases in 8 years (take that out to 20 years would be 27.5, so about equal to that of drink driving.

But the Speed Kills campaign is the enforced to a higher degree, although if someone could design a fixed alcohol camera then that would almost certainly change.

No one has said that excessive speed doesn't kill, but the couple of k's you get booked for is revenue raising, not safety related. If they were serious about it they'd up the points penalty and drop the fine. Make it so that if you get two speeding fines in 12 months you're walking for the next six. Then everyone will slow down.




Road quality and in particular engineering improvements together with seatbelts and getting drunks off the road are probably the highest contributing factors here. Are there an stats for the number of collisions? If that had dropped significantly after the introduction of speed cameras then I might be tempted to believe it has some effect.

Lastly from the TAC's website "February 2008: Set Agenda – establishing speeding as socially and morally unacceptable as drink driving within the Victorian community."

Need I say more? Yep one word, bollocks!

Cheers
Stuart

[multiweb]

Bummer!.... that's it! I'm taking up smoking again. :P

[Jeffkop]

Cant have the all the worker ants not being able to get to work ... that would totally stuff the Fat Cats system in so many dimensions !!!!

[pgc hunter]

OMG quick ban breathing in the name of "saving lives"!

Goodness, Kevin Rudd and the rest of the bubble wrap mob would be having a field day with the ideas from this thread :rofl:



That wipe off 5 propaganda is so huge here in Brackswards Victoria, it is equivalent to having Kim Jong Ill's face being pasted everywhere...driving to Renmark earlier in the year I saw those signs all over the place. :mad2: Everytime I see a wipe of 5 sign, I wipe on 10. :)

[Peter Ward]

Ouch! That is really scary.

So some prat in an TAC office, decrees "we'll place a 50km/hr sign there" (it was 70km/hr the week before, but someone complained about the noisy trucks) ....and if you simply don't see it, but are otherwise driving very responsibly, you are in the same bin as someone who drinks themselves into a stupor, and decides to drive home.

We are the experts, and know how fast you should be able to travel!

Yep. Bollocks!!!....

[Miaplacidus]

Hi Stuart,

Unfortunately, I live in Tassie, where we don't have any RH lanes to speak of. Rest assured, if ever there is a left hand lane, that's usually where I'll be. My main complaint is with all those numerous speeding and, yes, stupid drivers who endanger lives by ramming up my tail just because they want me to drive at an unsafe — and often illegal — speed, and who don't have a right hand lane to move into. This sample is incredibly large here, and although not necessarily reflective of what happens on the mainland, I suspect it is. So you might have to excuse the bias. Or perhaps not. But nonetheless it is these idiots who I think of when I hear arguments in favour of lifting the speed limit.

But I know that you would say that this is irrelevant to the argument that we should have autobahns and better cars and stricter controls on who actually drives them. And you're right, and if our society was comported differently I would definitely agree. Really, I would. It's just that I don't believe they'll ever outlaw stupidity, or overcome the fact that in this bogan democracy poor people are going to insist on the "right" to drive dubious vehicles on inappropriate roads at top speed across this wide, brown land. There's no other way to say it: we're just not German enough, and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change it.

(I'm absolutely sure that this behaviour, albeit common, is not what Peter had in mind when he started this thread, so I guess I'm now severely off topic... Mea culpa.)

Separately, a lot of cynical and disparaging stuff has been written about governments and their motives for imposing restrictions. This is very unfair to the many hundreds of Australians who have worked hard to research all the factors involved in road deaths and to develop policies to lower the road toll. They don't get any sort of kick-back from road fines, you know.

Live long and prosper.

[Roobi]

As having lost a family member due to drink driving and speeding, I am appauled by the majority of responses on this thread.... Can't you people see that cars are weapons, not toys and can someone seriously say "Oh whoops, sorry i didn't see that speed sign" What an absolute pile of.... The laws are there for a reason and you don't have a leg to stand on if its your own complacency that makes you break that law. If you get caught, you pay for it and be damned well thankful you didn't pay for it in a much worse way. Don't drink and drive, don't speed, follow the road rules and for christs sake don't think your immortal. Even if you think you bloody well are, the family you crash into and kill, certainly isn't. Everone seems to have this stupid thought that 'nah it'l never happen to me' but guess what, i know from experience it really really does. Someone please close this thread. It's disturbing to read the lax opinions out there.

[Peter Ward]

Sorry for your loss. The German model has zero tolerance for (drunk) idiots that cause such grief...that person would be doing time.

But, to be blunt, if you can't tell the difference between an M16 and Toyota you still have some personal issues to resolve....

[Miaplacidus]

Part of the problem I have with this topic is that people are obviously talking their own book. They are arguing (rather vociferously, sometimes) for raised speed limits mainly because they want to drive faster themselves. Frankly, I don't care if no one ever travels above 80.

As for the speciousness or otherwise of "Speed Kills", it is clearly obvious that all things being equal, speed increases the risk of fatal crashes. Sure, you can off-set that risk with better cars and better roads and better driving skills, and might reasonably consider elevating the limit under those pre-conditions (just as the Germans have done recently and, let's face, as all countries have done over the past 100 years). Nonetheless, you won't persuade anyone that all these improvements combined with slower speed limits aren't even more safe. On a cost-benefit analysis, I'd rather have my tax-payer's dollars go to benefit more members of society than those few with high-performance vehicles. I'd happily just upgrade the roads with lowered speed limit signs (except for the Midland Hwy here, which is a death-trap even at 80).

As for the reductio ad absurdum that 0 is the safest speed, that is obviously true but would only hold water as a legitimate argument if the speed-risk relationship was linear. It isn't. There is an optimum speed, above which the risk of death increases exponentially. Of course, it is true that we willingly accept that some people are going to die. That is a given. What we are arguing about is what constitutes acceptable risk. Phrased like that, you can see that many people can legitimately hold quite different opinions. Perhaps the law merely reflects the societal mean of those opinions.

(Sorry if this all sounds unduly socialist or spoils your day. Feel free to tail-gate your objection to the back of the next slow-moving convoy. Otherwise I'll look forward to some lovely postcards from Baden-Baden...)

[telemarker]

THAT is a pretty lame response. :rolleyes:

[Peter Ward]

Oh good grief, ..... "cars are weapons"???

What happened was a tragedy, to be sure. But a statement like the above
does nothing for a rational debate here.

[telemarker]

Truely sensitive, not.

[Peter Ward]

Why do you say this? The German paradygm clearly shows this to be false.

Crash rates are lower on Autobahns. This is fact.

As to whether Oz wants to spend some serious money on a similar national road & licensing system is probably a matter for another debate....

I must admit I'm close to closing the thread.....which was opened with a report by a leading expert saying in effect, we have a few things to learn.

It would seem government sponsored marketing (they called it propergander some time ago) wins over critical thought... :(

[Peter Ward]

No it was not. Cars are not weapons. I'll leave it at that.

[Miaplacidus]

Oh, I'm not disputing that, Peter. But are you also saying that fatal crash rates on Autobahns would not be even lower if the cars on them were forced to travel at slower speeds? (Sorry if I misunderstood.) I can accept that someone might not think it worth the extra lives saved, really I can, if it didn't amount to many, but I would be surprised if you denied that no one would be saved. (You see, then it would come down to how much we valued those extra saved lives.)

Anyway, cheer up, you look sad.

Regards,

Brian.

:)

PS If slowing down those cars on the Autobahn didn't save a few lives I might have to reconsider my opinion of the Germans!

[Roobi]

I'm sorry but you must be a moron..... any single thing that can kill is a weapon. Hence a car in the wrong hands=weapon.... and how dare you say what happened was a just a tradgedy. It was some stupid idiots bloody fault and manslaughter at that. How can you not say that a car is a weapon.
You must think guns are fine too huh?
You sir are an insensitive idiot!!

Bottom line, if you break the law, you should pay for it, and expect to pay for it at that. If a police officer stops a single person who is speeding 5 kms over the speed limit, who may very well have gone on, if not stopped, to increase their speed even more and then crash killing people, would you rather they have been caught, or say "oh geez it was only 5 kms over the limit".

If the police save only one life by booking people speeding, Isn't it worth it.:mad2:

[taminga16]

I feel sure Gentlemen that this must be time.

Greg.

[GrampianStars]

AGREED and I have a RIGHT to drive on MY TAX funded roads and drive as I like to drive, FAST. :thumbsup:
Road Laws are for REVENUE raising for the dumb panicky ignorant city folk who drive about:-
texting, eating, shaving, putting on makeup, having sex, etc, etc,. :rofl:
Road Laws are especially for the slow and erratic lane changing moron drivers,
who with deliberate intention put their vehicles in my way to hinder and obstruct my progress.
I would like to push them off the road for good :D
It is 2010 not the horse and cart 1800's
If you cant keep up keep off!

[Roobi]

well there we go. Just another moron who kills on our roads and think theyre invincible.


please someone close this thread im sick of seeing how disgusting some peoples thoughts are on this matter. This is why people die, idiots that think its theyre RIGHT to drive as fast as they like, and want to push people off the road. How disheartening, to say the least.

[Jeffkop]

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol: ... ROFLMAO Why beat around the bush Rob ... just tell us what ya really think.

[iceman]

Well this took a turn for the worse didn't it.

Locking.