STL-11000M or ST-8300M

[Octane]

I wish to relinguish the DSLR and jump head first into the wild world of cooled monochrome CCD imaging.

I don't usually do this, but, I'm asking the collective intelligence of this wonderful community in helping me decide.

Not sure which way to go. I'm a firm believer in diving into the deep end and learning how to swim, so, ease of use is a non-issue.

I have a 5" triplet apo refractor on a G-11 mount and currently employ an 80mm ZenithStar with a Meade DSI-C for autoguiding.

Potential to purchase an 8" imaging Newtonian or an 8-10" RC in the future is not out of the question, either.

If I decide to go ahead, the modified 40D will be on sale.

Cheers.

H

[telecasterguru]

H,

I will not profer advice as I still have not made my own decisions but good luck in what ever CCD you choose.

I am sure that whatever you decide it will be a wise and well thought out acquisition.

Frank

[Paul Haese]

The STL on the 5" is going to be superb. The ST is cheaper but does not have the same field of view. The ST on an RC is ok but if I was going to do it all again I would be using a larger sensor. However the STL on an RC8 causes some vignetting, so it is not suited to that scope. On a newt the STL would be fine so long as the secondary has enough real estate. It's a tough question but go for a STX11K. By pass the STL altogether. you will save yourself some former problems.

[Jeffkop]

Hi H

I had the same dilemma last October. Was set on buying the Fingerlakes equivalent ML8300 I think. I think that 8300 sensor is a winner. THEN Jase thru a spanner in my works and posted his STL11000 in the classifieds ... I sat around resisting and thinking up all the reasons not to buy it but in the end I went with it as the package represented pretty good value to me.

I know none of this helps you but I think from all reports the ST8300 is looking like a reasonable product. If I went that way I would go the way that Alex went and couple it to a Fingerlakes CFW 2-7 not bother to get those odd sized filters and CFW from SBIG ... seems that a set of 2" filters would be more usable down the track in future equipment changes.

Im also pretty sure that the new ST range offers significant advances in camera technology too ... mind you in saying that I think the STL has a reasonable reputation too ... Value wise I guess the new price of $7900 for an STL plus about another say 900 bux for filters and GST I dont know, not much change out of 8K I would imagine is probably pretty good for what you get. On the other hand the ST8300 and a CFW2-7 and adapters and filters is going to be around the $5500 - $6000 mark ... and also the extra complication of a guide scope if you dont already have one.

Hmmmm its a real hard one this isnt it. Guess you have to look at what you get for the extra 2K with the STL ... Dont know mate, but with all the great results Ive seen here with the ST8300 I think if I can get of the fence I would be seriously tempted by evaluating what the extra 2K
for the STL represents ... If you dont already have a guidescope and camera then youve to add i dont know maybe another 700bux min to the ST8300 path.

So I guess if it was ne if I had already a guidescope and camera then I would go the ST8300 direction ... if not then I would take advantage of the special STL price and grab it.

I dont vouch for the soundness of this advice nor its accuracy money wise ... just thinking out loud and typing it.

Whichever way ... you'll br happy Ide say

[Octane]

Guys,

Thanks so much for your replies, emails and private messages -- I really appreciate your thoughts and input.

I think I'm going to go with the STL-11000M. Paul, I'd love to go the STX route, however, I have no idea when they will be released, and, they're a bit out of my price range if the STX-16803's pricing is anything to go by.

The big issues which are swaying my decision:

Internal guide chip;
Internal filter wheel (with provision for external filter wheel capability);
Multi-stage cooling (with water cooling capability);
Well depth;
Proven reliability and proven results;
Resale prospects; and
Availability

I've emailed Peter Ward and requested a quote. I guess you could say that I'm just a little bit excited at the prospect of becoming a father, again. :tonguepoke:

Cheers.

H

[spearo]

Bugger....
Another 6 months of clouds to endure...
At least we'll know who to blame!
frank
:lol:

[DavidU]

Oh no !!! Can you imagine what H is going to do when he gets his mits on a STL-11000M !! Awesome.

[AlexN]

Mate - In all seriousness, despite the huge difference in QE, If I'd had the money to buy an STL11K, I would have... And I would probably swap my ST8300/CFW2-7/Astrodon LRGB filters for an STL-11K without filters... * I would keep the NB filters! :D haha

If you can afford the STL, get it. Or hold out to see if SBIG release an STX-8300... They have listed it as a possibility at this stage, and I am waiting with baited breath. If the STX8300 comes out I'll definitely make the change for superior cooling, self guiding, and the ability to use AO/RGH setups....

The ST8300 is a no frills imaging setup. It produces the goods left right and center, and I suppose thats where it really matters, but it has nothing that sets it apart from the hoard of other 8300 cameras out there.. The STL-11K is a real imaging machine... Shame you're asking this question now... Had it been two weeks ago I'd have been pointing you towards the FLI PL11002M setup that was for sale :) Awesome camera too...

Money wise, my ST8300/CFW/Filters/OAG/Guide cam cost me about $300 less than what an STL11002M C2 costs with no filters... so really, you're talking a saving of $900, but you're cutting corners so to speak, OAG is not self guiding, the quality is not the same.. The sensor size difference is pretty immense, the QHY5 is no where near as sensitive as the internal guide chip in the SBIG cams... The Texas Instruments TC-237 guide chip that was in my ST9 could easily guide through a 13nm Ha filter with 2sec exposures, binned 2x2...

You can save money, and have a lot more sensitivity, or you can have a fully featured imaging camera, but cost more money...

Its hard to compare the two cameras really, because they are so different...

I suppose I would put forth, that if you've got the money to consider the STL11K, but you're still considering the ST8300 based on either price or its sensitivity and pixel size for your imaging setup... Perhaps you should look at something like the FLI ML8300.. It cools faster, and futher than the ST8300, has exceptional noise characteristics (as a result of the supreme cooling) faster image downloads (2sec vs 7.5sec) is smaller, and to my knowledge, lighter.. All the upsides of the KAF8300, with much better cooling than any other 8300 camera...

All in all, there is no answer that anyone can give you that will satisfy you.. You really have to buy what you want.. If you want the extra sensor area, and all the extra features of the STL, get it.. If you're more interested in the small pixels of the KAF8300, and its sensitivity, then I would say, think long and hard about what 8300 camera you buy... There are many many options out there, and its easy to get lost... I'm happy with the ST8300, and I was absolutely amazed at what it produced on its first light attached to a ED127... I can vouch for the combination... They go well together... Had I had more money at the time of purchase, I would have bought the FLI 8300 based purely on cooling... My second choice would have been the Apogee Alta U8300M, Then the ST8300...


Sorry if I've rambled on there a bit.. It is something I've thought about before, so I have many mixed feelings on the subject. Comes down to personal tastes and requirements really.

[strongmanmike]

Why haven't you considered FLI Humi?

Both the FLI MicroLione and ProLine with CFW-2-7 meet all these requirements and more. They are tried and tested systems, you will have super cooling so not need water, pumps and buckets and ice etc in the summer, your images will be cleaner off the camera and come down muuuuch faster and you will be able to fit a full set of broad and narrow band filters in the filterwheel.

FLI will put any chip you desire in either of these platfroms so you can have what you want.

All the major good software supports FLI

The internal guide chip in the SBIG's is almost a waste of time with your system, many people have given up even using the guide chip all together due to the pain and limitations it puts on narrowband imaging and framing :shrug:. I have used piggyback for many years now and have had no trouble at all and your scope is even shorter FL :shrug:.

Personally I recon the decision is easy, the few extra bucks for one of the FLI systems are well worth it IMO.

Mike

[Octane]

Hi Mike,

I did consider FLI, but, it's just out of my budget. Also, I don't think I'll be doing any narrowband imaging anytime soon. The filters are quite expensive and I can't afford them. The beauty with narrowband filters is that you can pretty much image anytime you want. I can't even do this as I don't have a backyard at the place I'm renting at. The SBIG solution, at present, comes with the relevant HaLRGB filters that I need to get started.

This is a massive step for me. In more ways than one -- the financial outlay is a huge undertaking for me and is already breaking the budget as is. It is a bit of a now or never situation for me. This deal was just too good to pass up.

If, in future, the system turns out to be crap (which I highly doubt), I am sure I will be able to find a buyer.

Please don't be hating me for my decision to go with brand X over brand Y. :P In the end, it's a tool, and, in capable hands can do (has done) phenomenal things.

H

[spearo]

HAHAHAAHAH:rofl:
hoping the buyer doesn't remember this thread!!!!:rofl:
frank
PS (dont worry it CANT turn out to be crap)

[Octane]

Frank,

You cheeky bugger!

H

[spearo]

;):lol:

[strongmanmike]

Don't be silly me no hate anyone :thumbsup:

You will probably have an adequate system no matter which way you go I recon, it's just whether you want Miele or Westinghouse appliances in your imaging Kitchen :P ;)

Mike

[Bassnut]

Good choice H, its a reliable, proven, industry standard workhorse. IMO you should get the external SBIG guide cam with it for little extra cash for what it can do. As its cooled, its very low noise for long guide exposures (or just less noise for the usual 2 secs), and as a result, critically, you can build a dark library for it which is subracted on every exposure (with DL anyway). Fussy yes, but a proper stacked dark makes all the difference, and also makes the (also cooled) internal guide chip very usable, on Lum anyway, which is where you want the tightest guiding. As far as I know, these features are unique to SBIG.

[Octane]

Fred,

Cheers. I think I will get the RGH. I wasn't going to, but, I have a guidescope, so I may as well.

I'm pretty darn excited!

H

[Bassnut]

Well, you darn well should be ;-). Thats a huge leap from a DSLR, youll be stunned by the diff.

[SkyViking]

Congratulations Humayun, I'm sure you'll be very happy with your purchase. I've been pondering the exact same question myself since I'm planning to upgrade from my ToUCam. I will look forward to your results with great interest. Given the excellent quality of your DSLR images I'm sure we're in for a treat :)

[Octane]

Alex,

Just wanted to say thanks for the thought out and explanatory post. It all made perfect sense. I guess I've been spoilt by having a full frame 35mm DSLR and I know what kind of real estate it affords. Can't go back to small systems now!

If I was to go the 8300 route, then, I would seriously have considered the ML8300. A number of people had suggested that option and I dribbled and drooled on the FLI site for quite some time.

Frank, I have to thank you for being the impetus and catalyst for this purchasing decision. Should I get the Feathertouch now, or make you endure a /further/ six months of cloud (a year in total!)? :P

Rolf, I'll post my images here as I get a chance to take them. I was hoping I'd have it in time for Snake Valley, but, I don't think that'll eventuate -- it takes 4-6 weeks for delivery.

Of course, this is all hinging on whether I actually do go ahead and buy it. Right now, it is a 99% yes.

Thanks again, guys.

H

[strongmanmike]

Ok here's the other 1%

JUST GET IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:P

[Bassnut]

yeah, oh gaud, whats with the 99% all of a sudden, your kidding man :P.

Your about to leap into the good gear, with no woozy, time consuming inbetween money wasters. You have the skill. GET IT

[Peter Ward]

Yes, perhaps having the option of guiding adaptively at 15hz is a waste of time..... Not! :)

[Bassnut]

Here we go, usual Peter/Mike biffo. NB internal guiding (unless you can take 30sec exposures with eg PME), forget it, Lum, great, external guide cam/OAG, fantastic.

[Peter Ward]

No biffo Fred, promise.

The self guide chip is effectively both internal and external (with a remote guide head) ...hence the best of both worlds is very easy to implement....and even better , you can use an AO with a MOAG ahead of the filter set.... AO guided Narrow band....hummmm.... :D

[bokglob]

Go for it H,it's an inevitable eventuality anyway:lol: If you've got half a chance to"evolve" imaging-wise,grab it. You only live once!(I think). PS I'm treating your leap of faith as inspiration:thumbsup: All the best to you. Darrell

[Bassnut]

I know, ive done it (MOAG OAG AO), works a treat. Point was, I dont think H is ready for the MOAG/AOL trip quite yet, although its nice to have that option in the future. For him the internal guide at this stage might be usefull for lum maybe.......... The 15hz guiding possibilty is a bit well, extreme, and well, difficult :P

[spearo]

H,
GET IT so you can teach me !
frank

[strongmanmike]

Bah!...the self guide feature is a throwback to the old SCT without mirror lock days :lol: it is rather overated, hence the need for the external guide head, hello!! = piggyback guiding again :rolleyes:. Look at the enormous plethora of non self guided pin sharp high rsolution award winning pictures out there ;) Mega cooling (without water, plastic tubes, buckets of ice and pumps) low noise, fast download, inert gas filled imaging chambers for no recharging of desicant and no fogging and accurate orthoganal chip placement are all FAR better to have :thumbsup:

What ever you get Humi it will be a huge leap up from the DSLR, so have heaps of fun mate!

Mike

[Peter Ward]

Having a guide sensor that is locked next to the imaging sensor cures so many guiding problems....eg differential flexure, focus sag, optical shifts with gravity and thermal changes etc. Plus being very close to the isoplanic area of the imager, AO signals from a near field internal guider have less error than systems set further away.



Why lessen your guiding options? Self guide, external guide, differential guide (STX) and adaptive optics. Sure guide scopes work, but are a rather limiting, and not inexpensive (guide scope with rigid focuser, mounting rings, mounting plate and a separate guider with its own power supply and cables) solution.



Funny, I recall last years "Astrophotographer of the year" using something that had self guide :D (On ya Martin! )



A note to SBIG users, the manual states NOT to use ice with water cooling. An additional 6 degrees delta T is typical with room temperature systems.



Dessicants also work and are easily re-charged by the user.

Loss of gas = return to factory? :eyepop:
Contrary to web misinformation, SBIG actually do set their CCD systems up orthogonally using a dedicated optical test bench.

At the end of the day, you pays your money and take your chances.

There are several excellent CCD manufacturers out there, I'm sure most users are happy with their choices for what ever reasons that are important to them.

Was that OK Fred? Not too much biffo? :)

[rat156]

I inert gas fill my SBig whenever I need to clean it.

I recharge the dessicant in the oven, clean the sensor and reassemble the camera, pull the dummy plug out and squirt in the "Air in a can" duster via a drinking straw ( I lost the little straw ages ago) a few times to dry out the air in the camera. The cans are filled with a fluorocarbon which is essentially inert. Then simply change back in the dessicant. This works really well and you can start using the camera pretty much straight away.

Of course I could take it to work and use the UHP argon as well, but the air duster works.

Cheers
Stuart

[strongmanmike]

:fight:

Bah!...all moon landing hoax type "proof" ;)

[Octane]

Update:

I'll most likely be placing an order in the morning.

I'm tingling.

H

[DavidU]

Most excellent H.

[Omaroo]

:thumbsup:

[strongmanmike]

On ya Humi...now you will want a new scope...and mount...and...ah, you'll see ;)

:lol:

[telecasterguru]

H,

Can't wait for the first light.

Frank

[mill]

Or first dark :P

[strongmanmike]

I think you guys are showing a little bias there, I hope you haven't offset Humi with these comments otherwise he will be on a downhill gradient.

[mill]

Ok flat then or am i BIASed here :rofl::rofl:
H has lots to learn from when the camera arrives :P
PS: Nice come back there Mike :)

[Gama]

All i get is "Noise" from you Guys! :P

Ahh, had to put that in, as it "Cooled" me right down.;)

Theo.

[mill]

:rofl::rofl:

[AlexN]

This thread seems to have wandered off topic a bit.. I think the Dec balance is a little north heavy..

[Octane]

"You very funny guy... that's why I kill you last."

:rofl:

H

[mill]

Nah, we are just very southerly happy for Mr H with a bias to the dark art of the flat field that the light will do to the Red, Green and Blue.

[Octane]

I've requested a formal quote for payment.

I've ordered the Starlight Instruments FTF3545B-A 3.5" Feathertouch focuser with digital focusing.

I've ordered a Dewbuster.

I'm done for the forseeable future.

You guys are mean, making me spend all this money and sending me broke.

Next thing you know I'll have ordered a 12.5" RC and a Paramount ME. :(

H

[leinad]

Good stuff H.

You'll love the FT focuser and digital focusing system :D
Love mine :)

[allan gould]

Having read this thread again I really thought that Alex's post above summed up a lot of the delemma that affords getting a new camera at the moment very well.
Im glad H has finally made a decision but Im still fence sitting at the moment.
Allan

[AlexN]

There really is nothing like a dirty great big feathertouch to make the setup look serious! :) You'll love the FTF3545.. I had the opportuninty to use one not too long ago on a friends 140mm refractor and it was superb..

Dewbuster.. well, its not really exciting, but it is a requirement if you want to keep the moisture off your lens.. :)

[Hagar]

If you can buy a Paramount ME and a 12.5 RC I want a cutting from your money tree PLEASE.:eyepop:

[Octane]

Update:

Ordered and paid for.

The waiting begins.

Now, for the rain, and general inclement weather. waa waa.

H

[AlexN]

Bet you're positively buzzing at the moment mate!! I tell you what, you're about to rediscover your love for astro imaging in ways you never thought possible... :)

[mill]

AAhhh stupid imaging :P

[spearo]

GRRRRRRRR

;):lol:
frank

[troypiggo]

Genuinely excited for you. I need you to talk to my wife about releasing some funds...

[Hans Tucker]

Having been confronted with the same decision last year I am thinking I really should have purchased the STL-11K rather than the ST-8300. I placed my order for the ST-8300 last year and I am still waiting for delivery. :( Had I gone the STL road I would have had it by now plus it would have been a better purchase.

[AlexN]

Yep... I ordered mine the day they were able to be ordered last year, and received mine early this year... I had a 2 or 3 month wait... and it was in that time I calculated the price difference between the STL11K + filters vs ST8300 + CFW 2-7 + Filters + Autoguiding setup to be something like $800... Had I done that calculation first, I would have bought an STL11K. Even knowing that my scope cant provide the 35mm frame with a flat field...

[AlexN]

mmm Mine was a decision of FL and QE... Having had an ST10 in the past, I understand perfectly what a high QE camera has over a lower QE camera.

I think it was also the fact that the prices of the ST8300 setup were separate, where as the STL11K setup was a single $8500 item, the 8300 setup SEEMED more achievable, where as in reality, both were achievable.. The 8300 will give you sharper images in the FSQ, but given the amount of FSQ + STL images out there that are awesome, you'd have done well either way...

The STL11K wouldn't have taken any more skill to master I don't think.. Self guiding isnt any more difficult to master than external guiding. if anything. I find it easier.. The only difference to external guiding is that you don't have to setup an external guide scope/camera. just connect to the self guiding camera, compose your image with the imaging camera, select a guide star with the guiding camera, tell it to guide and start your imaging run... Nothing to it...

[Octane]

Approximately 32 days until delivery.

H

[Bassnut]

I dont think you 2 guys have made the wrong choice at all, the choices are just different IMO, not one better than the other.

The ST11k has a bigger chip and is a neater all-in-one solution, and better for H especially for feild use, wins on convienience.

The ST8300 has a much higher QE (for me, thats a killer) and with an OAGer much more suited for long FLs and NB.

To fit an OAGer to a ST11k is not a trivial task (and for long FL NB, that becomes attactive, if not essential) , it is very heavy (much more than the ST8300 I think?), I think you would need a MOAG at least. One adaptor I got with my image train, had those pissy little finger-tighten screws on it I see a lot of ppl use (and me in the past), was a complete joke, I had to drill and tap 8 holes for 6mm screws. So accessories and adaptors become quite expensive, you need to use the heavy duty gear.

So, point is, ST11k all in one convienience and big chip, but gets expensive with OAG later. And ST8300 hi QE and is more versatile with OAG etc within the same price.

But of course if in the end you wanted to go AO, then the ST11K is the choice.

[Hans Tucker]

Going with the KAF-8300 sensor may turn out to be a good choice but going with the SBIG ST-8300 has been somewhat regretable. Had I known that the wait would have been so long I would have chosen Apogee or FLI. I haven't even decided on the filter wheel. I was hoping to go with the FW8-STL over the FW5-8300 but with SBIG's delay in releasing the FW5 the adapter for the FW8-STL will draw out also.

[Octane]

Hans,

There would be a lengthy delay no matter which way you go.

Refer to Chris (Omaroo)'s tale.

H

[RobF]

You know, you could have saved yourself a lot of time and dollars if you weren't already addicted to top of the line DSLR full format sensors Humayun!

Seriously, I'm looking forward to what you may be putting out over the next 12 months like everyone else with your purchase to be.

[Octane]

Rob,

lol, you're 100% right.

In my defence I do use the 35mm frame for weddings and landscapes. That is to say, I do make use of my equipment.

I have been going to bed having pleasant dreams about what I may be able to do with the camera.

Astrophotography is such an obsessive... obsession!

H

[DavidU]

:lol: Perrrfect quote there !

[Hans Tucker]

Soooo without me having to read over old posts what did you end up buying?

[Bassnut]

Oh yeah, my 1st rig Items a few years back (LX200r,St8,G11) ALL took 6 mths each to arrive, an insane wait. Unless it's in stock, it's lottery, but in time you forget that. The wrong choice you don't forget.

[Octane]

Hans,

STL-11000M C2.

H

[jase]

9um pixels all the way. Good choice H.:thumbsup:

[spearo]

I'm surprised you get to sleep at all its soo exciting!

frank