3D tv in your home by the end of this year

[Kal]

It seems as though we will be getting 3D movies in your home by the end of this year, and the good news is that if you have a playstation 3, and a 1080p tv, you will be ready for it. The playstation 3 will simply need a software update to decode the MVC codec on the blu-ray discs, and you will need to buy an infrared transmitter along with "blinking" glasses, the same hardware that has been used for 3D computer gaming for the last few years.

Blu-Ray 3D specifications finalised (http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/17/blu-ray-3d-specifications-finalized-your-ps3-is-ready/)

This is good news, as I know I can purchase a new tv or a PS3 and not have to worry about upgrading for 3D movies later on.

Edit: According to Mark's post later in this thread you will need a true 120Hz input signal to the tv to avoid flicker issues. All current LCD tv's (there are only a couple of computer LCD monitors) don't have this - they interlace the output signal when claiming "100Hz" or "200Hz" so it looks like you will still need a '3D ready' tv before you can be assured you will be ready

Edit 2: After reading alot more about the specs of 3D blu-ray, they will leave it up to the tv manufacturers on how to implement 3D - be it polarisation techniques, shutter glasses technique, or other technique. One thing I believe though is that the tv will need to support frame packing 3D formats - so new displays will likely need to be purchased.

[AdrianF]

Wont do me any good as I cant wear the 3D glasses for any length of time. They give me a headache and make me feel like throwing up.

Adrian

[that_guy]

3d gives me motion sickness

[Manav]

I want 3d telescopes! :p

[multiweb]

Sounds great. Can't wait to see them out. :thumbsup:

[that_guy]

isn;t 3d just an overlapped images??

[Kevnool]

I like watching 3D after the first 5 mins i dont know ive got them on.
1080P and the PS3 is all ready to go.
I even watched My Valentine and Journey to the centre of the earth in 3D it was great on the projector.

Cheers Kev.

[Lumen Miner]

My gf has never seen a 3d movie. She was assuming it was like the people were in the room with you, like sitting on the bed and such. Had to explain it is more-so the image jumping out of the screen, not full on 3d interaction in the room. :)

[mithrandir]

SWMBO was afraid Avatar would do that. She survived.



I'd be happier with 3D prescription glasses.



Yes, but they are colour modified so the right image is more visible through the right lens and the left image through the left lens.

[AdrianF]

I want 3D like on the TV show "Bones"

Adrian

[Terry B]

Ans which industry will be the early uptake users?
see
http://www.theage.com.au/digital-life/hometech/porn-studios-lead-the-stampede-into-3d-tv-20100111-m19e.html

[Gemini2544]

The jokes on you... They couldn't run 24 hours straight without running out of 3D material.

NOW SHOWING.......Mr ED IN 3D follows by Gilligan Island IN 3D

Yeh Right!!!:screwy:

[Kal]

Eeew, colour modified 3D is so 1980's and it sucks!

Current IMAX and cinema 3D uses polarised light and polarised glasses to present different images to each eye, in full natural colour.

The home implementation which I will guess be the most popular will use glasses that "blink" each eye so that each eye see's alternating frames on the tv.

[Kal]

There is probably a couple of weeks of 3D content atm, with more being released all the time. If the cost of implementing it at home is only $100 or so for the glasses (assuming you already have a 1080p tv and a PS3) then why not enjoy 3D HD movies in your home?

http://www.3dmovielist.com/list.html

[Satchmo]

Just a bit more technical background.

To see 'flicker free' 3d will require sets that actually receive a picture at 120hz rather than the current crop of TV's that just interpolate 50 or 60 hz to 100hz and 200hz at the final display ( to give the illusion of fluid motion ).

True 120hz on the input is common with DLP projection TV sets and just entering the market for PC monitors. Very little available for LCD so far. It will be while before you will find TV's capable of flicker free 3d for polarization methods in your local JB HI FI

That being said there are already a number of 120hz notebooks on the market that will work with NVidea's 120hz LCD shutterglasses .

I have had LCD shutterglasses for PC gaming that work with my video projector but only at 60HZ so the 30hz flicker I see in 3d really is off- putting.

My choice for 3D viewing will be a 720p 120hz projector and Nvidea shutter glasses , both already available in the US at a total of about $800 USD. Why settle for a 40" screen when you can have a 120" one :)

[Kal]

sweet - thanks for that extra info mark, certainly useful!

I've been thinking of getting some 3D glasses to try 3D gaming on my PC, I will have to check my LCD monitor specs, although I don't recall it being 120Hz. Edit - just checked 75Hz, so not a good screen for 3D gaming

[multiweb]

Interesting interview here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12aM9p8N_hQ&NR=1). Sony Explains How Their 3D Displays Work!

[Jen]

:thumbsup: cool :thumbsup:

[wavelandscott]

One of my colleagues attended the CES show in Las Vegas (he swears that he did not go to the AVN)...we make a number of materials which make the flat panel screens work. We also do a lot of LED materials and are working on the next generation OLED...

He was impressed by the technology...and the potential applications (he still swears he did not go to the AVN too)...

Now if only I can get my George Jetson car I'll be happy!

[Kal]

Arrgh - can't sleep....... lying in bed thinking of refresh rates and what Mark said.

I think that 50Hz (PAL) or 60Hz (NTSC) input signal to the tv is fine for flicker free viewing. In fact - movies are shot @ 24fps, and blu-ray players can output to the tv at just 24Hz (http://au.playstation.com/ps3/support/movies/detail/linked224927/item68549/Adjust-BD-1080p-24Hz-Output-%28HDMI%29-settings/) though a HDMI cable.

LCD's don't naturally produce flicker like CRT's do, but the shutterglasses will produce flicker. Therefore the shutterglasses will need to operate at 60Hz per eye - which means that the tv output will need to be 120Hz.

Computers are different. Computer monitors won't take an input signal from a 3D video card and apply logic to it to create a flicker free experience - so you need a 120Hz input to match the 120Hz output. Tv's, however, will apply some logic to convert the input signal to an appropriate output display - it's why we have 100Hz and 200Hz displays for out 24Hz or 50Hz inputs.

The important thing for 3D tv is how the tv handles the 50Hz input signal and converts it to a 120Hz output

Disclaimer: It's late, so if any of this is trash and not true I have my excuse :P

[Satchmo]

No, you can't adapt shutterglass technology that requires 120hz refresh to work with 50-60hz input. You will need new technology such as allready available in DLP projection style TV's and 120hz monitors

[Calibos]

I'm with Satchmo on the Projector. I actually can't see the point of 3D on screen sizes below 50" with normal living room viewing distances.

I will not be investing in a 3DTV but will be investing in a 3DPJ when they come out. I've been a fan of Panasonics range of Consumer LCD widescreen and HD projectors for a long time. I reckon they are great bang for the buck with a great price performance ratio positioned just at the point of diminishing returns starts to kick in where doubling the price no longer doubles the picture quality improvement. Sure they don't have market leading black levels or market leading colour etc but they are a fraction of the price of the best of the best. 2000 euros for their latest model the AE4000

Was about to pull the trigger on one of these. Has a great auto zooming/focusing feature. In practice this means that you buy the biggest 2.35 ratio format screen you can fit. With 1080p resolutions you can do away with the need for anamorphic lenses and simply zoom up the 2.35 film to fit the screen and zoom back down for 16:9. This is known as a CIH (Constant image height) setup. This way its the big movies that have the largest impact in your room instead of 16:9TV. Going for a CIW setup means your 16:9 TV shows appear bigger with more impact than movies which is not the way I think it should be.

But I digress. I was about to pull the trigger until I read that 3D was coming to the consumer realm a lot quicker than I imagined. With Panasonic being one of the main driving forces behind the push for consumer 3D and a big player in deciding the industry standard, I have a feeling that next years model, the AE5000? will be 3d capable, (true 120HZ refresh rate)

House is currently being renovated with a dedicated cinema room. I can't wait for the day that I am watching Avatar in 3D sitting about 13ft back from a 120" wide(not diag) 2.35:1 ratio screen. It'll be like looking out a big window in the side of the house at the planet pandora.

The 21st century is starting to arrive and only 10 years late :D

[Barrykgerdes]

What's so new. Apparently you stilll need glasses. I remember watching the three stooges in 3D on the old 17" B&W nearly 50 years ago.

Baz:P;):eyepop:

[Kal]

Well, the HDMI 1.4 specification will support 3D tv and it's maximum frequency is stated as:

HDMI 1.4 was released on May 28, 2009, and Silicon Image expects their first HDMI 1.4 products to sample in the second half of 2009.[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14PressRelease-52)[106] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-SiliconImageHDMIVersion14-105) HDMI 1.4 increases the maximum resolution to 4K × 2K (3840×2160p at 24Hz/25Hz/30Hz and 4096×2160p at 24Hz, which is a resolution used with digital theaters); an HDMI Ethernet Channel, which allows for a 100 Mb/s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mb/s) Ethernet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet) connection between the two HDMI connected devices; and introduces an Audio Return Channel, 3D Over HDMI (HDMI 1.3 devices will only support this for 1080i (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced))[107] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-106), a new Micro HDMI Connector, expanded support for color spaces, and an Automotive Connection System.[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14PressRelease-52)[108] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14Introduction-107) HDMI 1.4 supports several stereoscopic 3D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereoscopy) formats including field alternative (interlaced), frame alternative, frame packing, line alternative, side-by-side half, side-by-side full, 2D + depth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2D_plus_depth), and 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth,[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14FAQ-49)[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14LaunchDocument-108)[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14UpdateDocument-109) with top/bottom half and full formats to be added in January 2010. HDMI 1.4 requires that 3D displays support the frame packing 3D formats at either 720p50 and 1080p24 or 720p60 and 1080p24.[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14UpdateDocument-109) High Speed HDMI 1.3 cables can support all HDMI 1.4 features except for the HDMI Ethernet Channel.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14FAQ-49)[109] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14LaunchDocument-108)[110] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#cite_note-HDMIVersion14UpdateDocument-109)

So I can tell you now that you will not need 120Hz input - in fact, you only need 24Hz input for true 1080p 3D across HDMI using 4096×2160p at 24Hz.

[Kal]

Looks like I was wrong about being able to use any existing tv. From my previous post - the tv will need to support frame packing 3D formats, and this article (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10417449-1.html) also confirms new displays will need to be bought.

[Satchmo]

I thought we were talking about flicker free 'page flipping' 3d with shutter glasses at 120hz retaining full resolution of the movie . All the 'frame packing' methods do not retain the full resolution of the film ( usually lose half the resolution ) but may be possible to use at 50hz.

I will pursue full resolution methods as I don't want to compromise anything to see 3D.

Yep theres no doubt that 3d is going to require new hardware , so its going to be a pretty slow take off. People are only jsut getting excited by LED technology which is still 50-60hz.

[Satchmo]

URL doesn't work.

[Kal]

Hmm, don't know what happened to the link (it will be in hy browsing history at home).

Basically it was an interview regarding 3d blu-ray and the like where they said it was "most likely you will need a new tv".

I listened to an interesting podcast last night with a guy from the blu-ray disc association, where he said blu-rays approach was to be completely neutral on how the 3D content is presented - they are leaving that up to tv manufacturers. So while they defined the codec and the transfer method, it will be up to tv manufacturers to implement the 3D hardware however they like. But the codec does deliver 1080p24 on both left and right view. So my impresion was that it will be up to the tv's to implement the shutter glass in conjunction with the tv - so it will sync to the tv, not the data output source. They were comparing it to remote controls where you get a remote control that only works on the tv you bought it with - it will be the same with shutter glasses.

[Satchmo]

I see where you are coming from with the Bluray standard . It really sounds like they are finding something that will work 50hz sets which will be the bulk of existing sets. It will be really interesting to see what they come up with as add ons for existing TV sets . I notice there is also a 720P standard in the Bluray S3d, which will be of more interest due to the higher frame rate.

24fps will be a big compromise for 3d. Even if they use frame buffering to stop flicker with shutterglasses it will be create eyestrain with fast moving action in 3D. The RealD system in the theatre works at something like 96 fps so you don't get blurring and flickering due to the 'jumping' of fast moving objects in the 3D space during the interval between successive frames with each eye.

I'm well aware of this problem as I spent 6 months playing World of Warcraft with an Emagin 3D head visor with a a 60hz refresh ( 30 hz each eye ) and it used a frame buffer to smooth out any flicker due to the maximum input frame rate of 60 fps with vertical sync on , using the page flipping mode of 3D video. It definitely caused some weird visual sensations and artifacts with fast moving action , particularly where the view was panning sideways rapidly. When I used the visor in 2D ( 60HZ) both eyes the problem didn't exist.
All that being said , playing WOW in 3D was a fantastic experience. I might fire up the Emagin glasses some time to check out the new AVATAR game in 3D! I was lucky to pick them up for $500 ( they are now $1500 )

I expect the saving grace will be that most people have TV's 40" or under so the screen will appear small compared to the theatre and any artifacts just won't appear so nauseating.

We are certainly entering a new era of mass culture 3D virtual reality.

I can recommend the MTBS 3D (http://www.mtbs3d.com/phpBB/index.php) forum . There are many very knowledgeable people there.

[Kal]

Thanks for the link. I must say it has been difficult for me to find concrete information, probably because the blu-ray standard was only finalised in December. One thing for sure is that I will put off my planned tv upgrade (I'm still using a CRT tv at home) until I see where this pans out in a years time. I do enjoy 3D IMAX's and 3D movies so I am the type of person that would love it at home.

[rubiksquare]

It all seems abit of a gimmick atm. If the idea is pushed more with different ways of creating 3d images without glasses i'd seriously consider the purchase.

[starlooker]

Wouldn't it be good if they had 3D goggles that you can hook up by USB to your computer?

Cheaper than a TV, and it can be used for 3D computer games etc.

[NPSF3000]

Prototypes are in existence, though there are no real problems with glasses.



Been around for years - a popular implementation is NVIDIA 3D VISION.

[multiweb]

There's a lot of ink in the media and tech forums about it. I reckon the way to go is with passive glasses like in the theater. You don't want bulky glasses with incorporated batteries, or wiring or wireless (signal drop). I guess it's wait and see game right now. No rush. All will come in good time when the dust settles.

[Satchmo]

The NVidea 3D 120hz shutterglass is the best most cost effective solution at the moment. The glasses are not bulky , are wireless, and run about 40 hours before plugging in for a recharge.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Main.html

'Passive' solutions like RealD require twin projectors at the domestic level and very expensive silver screen to project on.

Just noticed on the Nvidea site a Fuji 3D digital camera shoots digital stills and video :)

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product_finepix_real_3d_us.html

[Kal]

And quite affordable too if you already have a Nvidia 3D shutter glasses setup on your pc :thumbsup:

[NPSF3000]

Cost around $300 and require a NVIDIA GPU. You still need an 120hz monitor. It is designed for gaming, it does not appear to be cost effective for home theater.

[Satchmo]

The Optima HD66 is bright 2500 lumen 720p HD projector that can be driven via HDMI from your Nvidea video card. It syncs at 120hz and will work with the Nvidea 3D glasses. They sell in the USA for $699. A great lowcost solution for 3D home theatre driven by a cheap PC.

Any 3D content , movies, games, photos etc can be played with the Nvidea solution.

Extra glasses are a bit of a sting at $149...

[NPSF3000]

The following figures are relatively correct for Australia, and unless you can give me a link for price i'm going to assume $300 for the glasses (cause I can find that price).

For any sort of home entertainment system:

Nvidia: $700 Computer ($400 bare bones + $200 Bluray and $100 nvidia card).

4 Glasses(Min): $1200

Projector: $1000 (Can't find one in Aus, so i'm pretending to ship it over).

Total Price around $2900 (AUD)

Your talking about the price range of cutting edge 3D Plasma and LED TV's. Sure you can do it, but the result is defiently not worth the minute saving you might be getting. Even if Nvidia drops their glasses to $100 (And you managed to get the cost to around $2000) I still wouldn't recommend them for a home theater situation.

[Satchmo]

A bright 2500 lumen 3 meter screen for gaming and movies 2D and 3D is going to wipe any LCD /Plasma solution * if you are into 3D * ( and even 2d)

I have been running an 1100 lumen projector with a 2.5 meter screen for 6 years now and wouldn't ever consider going back to a small screen for any entertainment purpose . Some people just can't cope with a big screen though , so it comes down to personal taste. I also have a cheap Media Center PC hooked up which is the hub of my entertainment . Thats my experience anyway...:)

[multiweb]

I heard the bulbs lighting in those projectors are running hot and don't last very long. Also very expensive. Is this still true or was it a problem with very early models?

[NPSF3000]

Are you seriously saying that a $1000 projector is going to give you anywhere near the color depth and contrast as a $3k plasma or LED screen? It already a given that it doesn't have the resolution.

Nothing against projectors, but it is my understanding that to have a decent experience (when compared to a screen) not only do you have to spend substantially more (though you do end up with a bigger image) and have a good environment with very little to no light.

Lastly, large image size has never made for a better experience, it depends on multiple factors.

[Satchmo]

If you reduced the picture down to as small as a TV it probably would have the same intensity. Yes you do need to darken the room. I have lined curtains in my lounge which are plenty good enough. Most small TV's always seem way too bright to me ..not lifelike at all.

Resolution isn't everything. My PJ is SVGA and does a beautiful job of scaling 1080i..and no at my 3.5 metre viewing distance I can't see any pixellation at all , looks very film like. I've racked up 3600 hours on the bulb in 6 years. Certainly doesn't owe me anything.

Anyway no point in this thread becoming a TV vs . projector debate .

If you want a small super-bright screen for 3D , buy an HD back projected DLP TV ..there are plenty supported by NVidea 3D glasses.

I am looking forward to gaming and 3d movies on an Optima HD66 projector or similar when the time comes .
Each to their own :)