Skyand Space........please come back

[fuso]

I miss S&S,I hope it comes back soon, I can't stand Aust sky&telescope its c&*p. Take out the ads and all you have left is 3/4 USA mag:screwy:

Please come back.......if you do I promise i'll buy you

[I.C.D]

Here,Here
I have been getting Sky at Night lately as well as Sky&Space.It would be great to get our own Local Astronomy Mag back again as we as the foreign one's as well.


Ian C
:thumbsup::D:)

[Miaplacidus]

Yes, yes, please come back. If you do, I promise I'll demand a refund for all the issues I never received.

[el_draco]

If you are lamenting the disappearance of this magazine, why not do the obvious, go electronic and produce one ourselves. There are enough people in this group alone to put together an online mag, complete with content thats relevant to us, and current. I'd be involved if someone wants to try it out. Maybe it could be set up as an off-shoot of IIS.... admin listening???:D

[matt]

Tell us more. What sort of content do you envisage as 'relevant to us'?

How often would it come out?

Etc etc

[PeterM]

You are joking, right? Whatever you may think of Australian Sky and Telescope there is no denying it has been reliable for many years. It does present Australian content and imagery. Can always be found on most newsagents stands, no doubt it is delivered regularly on time to its subscribers. And finally to boot it's advertising content presents a good showing of Australian retailers.
PeterM.

[stephenb]

I fully agree with every single point Peter outlines here.

1. S&S became obscenely unreliable, (a) in their obligation to provide issues to paid subscribers and to newsagents, and (b) in their communications with their customers. They treated their customers with contempt and I hope it never surfaces again.

2. The fact that the S&S website has not changed or been updated in over 2 years shows how interested they are keeping the local community informed of their presence.

3. What ever you may think of the content of AS&T, I believe it is by far the best publication we have seen in this country. And yes I have been critical of the US/local content in the past, also.

4. AS&T is on my newsagent's shelf within days of that same issue arriving at my local telescope dealers.

5. When I started in the hobby 25 years ago, the only two magazines I could get were S&T and Astronomy, and they were by subscription only, and only then did they arrive 2-3 months behind the issue date. We are very fortunate these days.



I promise you, fuso, you'd be the only one who will.

[fuso]

I agree with everything you guys have said

Even I got p*%%ed off with late arrivals and missing issues, my subscription finished on that last issue (how lucky was I), but I still think their later issues are far more appealing than Aust S&T, more aussie written articles, I still remember seeing a big test on eyepieces (over 6 pages I think, aussie written not USA).

I give S&S 9/10 for content, and 0/10 logistics/service


Why are most if not all their equipment tests (Aust S&T) just copied from the US issue?
When I ever buy an Astro mag (3-5 per year) maybe one would be Aust S&T.
Yet when I buy other mags ( fishing, cars, planes,………etc) most are Aust mags!

[multiweb]

I've heard AS&T is still tied up with the US in a big way and don't have that much choice in the domestic content quota so it's unlikely more aussie pics will be published than what it does now.

That reminds me of an argument with the domestic movie industry in France 20yrs ago. Some people started winging (including French studios) that for 1 French movie in the cinemas they had 20 or so US movies showing. So they tried to restrict the amount of US shows in relation to the the domestic productions... Until the "next starwars" came around attached with 10 B-series flicks. Take it or leave it was the deal. :P Went all back to business real quick wanting the good stuff and putting up with the not soo good. :lol:

AS&T had some great local contributions but also a lot of wonderful O/S material. I guess it's all about volume. Might change over time.

[matt]

I'd rather have a mix of local and overseas content that turns up on time....every time....at my local newsagent than the alternative, which is what we came to expect.

It would be nice, though, to have another publication on the newsstands. One mag a month or every second month doesn't satisfy the hunger!

[Barrykgerdes]

From what I have seen on Australian produced mags with a limited market. It is not economically viable from a revenue point of view. This results in shoe string budgets, lack of good home brewed articles, cheap publishing deals etc which result in delays in circulation and missing issues. Followed by loss of support by the subscribers and advertisers and eventual complete demise.

Sky and Space was not the first Australian astonomy mag to fold but it ran for the longest period thanks to some dedicated work by a few people working for a pittance in the hope that its viability would eventuate.

The current AS&T is only viable because of the huge USA support and thus must push the US material. At least we get some input. Be happy that we have at least got some version of an Aust. Astronomy mag. on the magazine shelves.

Don't forget we also have Mike's "Night Sky" sheet that has been around for decades. Produced free by the B&T shop and delivered by email. "Universe" from the ASNSW if you are a member and the journals published by other Australian societies. These all have content to suit the Australian scene as well.

Barry

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[el_draco]

I hate hard copy. Ends up as landfill or loaded in cardboard boxes; dead technology, ecologically unsustainable and slow.... the top reasons I DONT subscribe to hardcopy magazines. I'd far rather have a high quality PDF sent to me on a regular basis with a decent indexing system.

Cost to produce compared to a hardcopy version?, negligible, cost to distribute, even less. Subscriptions? Advertising? Maybe pay a few people to coordinate production, report on specific events etc.

Distribution could occur on a regular, (ie weekly/fortnightly/monthly), basis with access to alert systems for a variety of purposes, nova for example. Would not need much money to finance I suspect.

Coordination would be the key. I'd suggest a free cut down version widely distributed with extras available by subscription. Hell, just thinking about the options/opportunities makes my head buzz.

What would go in it? Content from a world wide audience of amateurs and professionals with regular contributors from "experts". Major manufacturers could be invited to promote/demonstrate their wares for example.

The content could be as specific or broad as desired and anyone could submit copy. If contributors were given specific guideline for submissions, the compilation/distribution process could become relatively easy.

What content "would be relevant to us"? Anything you like. The universe is not divided into hemispheres but the observing targets are, to a point anyhow.

A Southern Hemisphere approach may actually include an increased focus on targets from the Southern Hemisphere.... LMC, SMC etc etc.

Having seen M31 from the Nevada desert, I understand why its a focus for Northern latitude amateurs. Alas, from here, its almost invisible. The LMC, on the other hand, is not invisible and, IMHO, is massively more interesting from an amateurs point of view. I would appreciate more focus on this object for example. (a magazine in itself I suspect)

I'd love to see this happen but it takes effort, and I suspect utilising an existing membership base of 6000+ through sites like IIS, would be a great way to get credibility... yes? I for one would subscribe as fast as I could type in my debit card details!!!:D

Lets see, for arguement sake, $50 p.a. x 6000, plus advertising revenue... phew!! oh, and thats only based on the IIS membership. Worldwide?

Note, you are not reading hardcopy at the moment are you? I spend most of my reading time online as it is. Would be nice to see it more concentrated....

I would like to know what other members, and the IIS administrators, think of the idea... Hey folks... run a POLL!!

anyone listening?:shrug:

[AndrewJ]

One good point for hardcopy
Take yr Astro mag to the dunny and no one cares.
Take yr lappie, and they wonder what yr up to :D

Also, the magazine can be used in an emergency



Yr computers all run on electricity. Every time you read, you use more.
The mag cost once to make and thats it
Tho a good index of the hardcopy would be nice :P
Always tradeoffs



Slow can be good at times

Andrew

[el_draco]

Hygene issues !!! :mad2:


Reading an astronomy mag..... ;)


Plan ahead :P



The cost of a P.C. over the lifetime of mags it could hold, (100,000+), would be insignificant compared to the cost of the hardcopy on all counts. Take your lappie with you and the index could link you to an issue/article/phrase from 10years back. Try that with Hardcopy! :thumbsup:



Not when someone needs confirmation/observations of a comet / incoming asteroid / SN etc etc

Apart from that... I get impatient especially when I need to find info. :rolleyes:

[matt]

I would have thought that's exactly the approach of magazines such as AS&T...which features articles from Australian as well as international contributors.

What point of difference are you suggesting other than the manner in which it is delievered?

As for it being possibly weekly or fortnightly...are you suggesting a 4-page PDF?..because that's the struggle you're going to face with garnering enough content - at least enough to make it worth opening the PDF. What you're talking about then is a newsletter or pamphlet.

And then there's the quality of writing and editing. Whether or not you place any value in those issues is a personal matter. I know what I prefer.

And at the end of the day I like to have hard copy. A magazine I can hold in my hands and leaf through, saving in a binder for later easy access. I'm just a bit old school that way, I guess.

Interesting discussion, though.

[pgc hunter]

Hard copy all the way! To read, you don't have to wait an eternity for your computer to boot up, and you are safe from any potential errors/crashes etc the bloody comp might think of tormenting you with.

Most importantly, hard copies can be taken to the dunny :D

[el_draco]

The format of the publication could be similar or completely different to whats on offer now but that would be determined by market research. The real beauty is, the format could be easily changed as required... Not so easy with paper.

For instance, it could include both professional and amateur content. I would like to know what is happening in a lot of areas that you just don't hear about in the current offerings because of the cost involved in producing hardcopy. I would also like to see images that are direct from the author. Imagine being able to click on a link to a full resolution original image rather than getting something on a printed page.



No, I am not interested in a newsletter type of publication. There are plenty of those around. I'd like to see a good quality product with a wealth of info, atleast 50+ pages. The frequency of issue would be determined by the volume of contributors I guess.

If 200 good submissions came in per week, then that may justify a weekly publication... who knows. If there were a significantly large pool of contributors, the frequency could be increased. I suspect monthly would be the obvious start up frequency with the possibility of a fortnightly bulletin and instant alerts when required. This format is currently done by Sky & Telescope in a limited way.



As I said, this would need coordination. No product will gain popularity in this market unless it has real guts to it.... the audience is to intelligent, sophisticated and good looking :). That means good editing and excellent content, requiring contributors and editors with credibility from the start. If you plan to have a subscription base, then it MUST represent value for money. Thats basic common sense.



Old habits take time to change but I suspect that this change will become inevitable as time goes by. Hardcopy newspapers are already dropping like flies, or going online, and when the cost of a mag becomes excessive, as I believe it already is, the demand for online content will ensure this change happens.

If, for example, each issue of your hardcopy mag costs twice what it does now, or you could get double the content for half the price online plus "extras" would you be so resolute in your support of the hardcopy? Wont happen?"... Hmmm Carbon TAX!

Perhaps the fate of the magazine that started this thread should be seen as a warning of things to come.

I distinctly remember a bloke trying to sell me Encyclopedia Britanica hardcopy for about $2k some years ago and when I said it will all be on CD within 2 years, he scoffed at me... Guess wot!:rofl:Would you pay $2k for a beautifully bound copy of Britannica that is 2 years out of date before you get it?

Personnally, I think it is better to look forward than to stand still otherwise we would all still be using film based cameras, wouldn't we... :rolleyes:

And to illustrate the point: http://www.astrophotoinsight.com/




That it is, an one that we need to have as a community.

Rom

[matt]

Good luck getting 200 'good' submissions a week. From my own experience, you'd be lucky to get that many from 'local' contributors in 12 months....

And how are you going to pay for that '...good editing and excellent content, requiring contributors and editors with credibility from the start.'?

That doesn't come cheap.

Anyway...bring it on. I'd love to see a new publication enter the local astro scene. I'll keep an eye out for it, eh?;)

[el_draco]

Who knows Matt. This is theoretical discussion and certainly not possible as a one man show. The things that I see are very positive pointers for such a project are simple:

1/ Economics: Online versus hardcopy... no contest on production cost and distribution.
2/ Trend: IIS, like many online communities, is growing like a proverbial weed.
3/ Demand: Younger people demand technology and they are the future of astronomy



Sure doesn't, but that would also be part of the market research. I am sure there are many potential contributors and editors out there who would be interested in a venture like this provided they could see a reason to participate, even on a not for profit basis. If payment were essential then, as previously suggested, even a 6000+ subscription base at $50 p.a. would be $300k.




Its already here... lets see where it goes :thumbsup:

Rom

[matt]

Where?

Not until it's on my newsstand or mailed to my Inbox does it exist!

Otherwise it's just another exercise in wishful thinking and dreaming, the likes of which we've all seen and listened to ad nauseum....

Not that there's any harm in playing 'what if...' but rather than just spitballing the idea and talking in generalities...I'd like to see this up and running, and I nominate you to run with it.:)

You're obviously passionate and enthusiastic about the notion. Make it happen!!!!!

[el_draco]

My last post included a link to a prime example of what I am talking about... http://www.astrophotoinsight.com/... and yep, I reckon I'll subscribe.

Its pretty specialised though and what I would like to see is less so.



You to can subscribe...:rofl:



How kind of you....
Now I need another say... 20 like minded people who are also totally alturistic and this babby will fly... and the trees will be happy...



Interesting thing is, I'm looking for a change and my work habits are "flexible". After February, I am either full time X2 or full time X1 and the latter leaves the option open to do a little research. Yep, I am passionate and enthusiastic about the idea but wise enough to know that this is not nearly enough.

It takes a number of people to make this kind of thing happen and, from bitter experience, doing everything myself is not a good idea.... Hey!!! How does "Editor in chief" grab you? Pay is absolute crap but the personal satisfaction from a job well done s great :lol:

Rom

[el_draco]

Oh No... according to the latest stats...444 people have been listening....:welcome:

[pmrid]

I agree. The ads in AST rarely or barely change; the content, insofar as it amounts to content, is dominantly northern-hemisphere oriented. The equipment reviews are generally for gear so highly-priced that no-one except for the astronomical glitterati can afford them; the products that have real relevance to us are not reviewed most probably because of advertiser sensitivity (e.g. when have you seen a comparative review of the QHY8 and QHY9 or the new SBIG 8300 series; or of the EQ6 or reporting/commenting on the really high incidence of problems with the HEQ5Pro; when did you read a critique of the GSO RC's commenting on their rubbish baffles and rotten focuser in the original version?

Yes, it is a magazine that is a vehicle for advertising and not for any genuine purpose of serving the wider community of amateur astronemers in Australian and New Zealand.

bring back S & S.

Peter

[iceman]

The conversation has certainly diverted to a different topic, a very interesting one indeed.

Getting contributors, and subscribers, is likely to be the hardest part of any magazine - online or hardcopy.

Astro Photo Insight have certainly proven that the online model works - it's become a very popular e-magazine with a lot of subscribers around the world. It's not targeted at any particular region, so has worldwide appeal. Of course it's main target audience is astrophotographers, whereas another e-zine would be aimed at a broader audience, most likely.

It's definitely an interesting idea and one I've thought about in the past, but not really deep, serious thought.

Your enthusiasm has rubbed off though Rom, and it's certainly something I'll give some more thought to.

[el_draco]

How do you blow raspberries in cyberspace....???:rofl::rofl::D

Rom

[jjjnettie]

Yep, the time is ripe for a new Australian astronomy magazine.
There's nothing like holding a hard copy in your hand either.
I'm sure there are plenty of people who would be willing to contribute not only articles but observation reports, sketches, images, atm projects and handy hints and tips. A section for astro societies, star parties and other relevant gatherings.

[iceman]

I haven't read things like that in ANY hardcopy magazine.

Like you said, most likely due to advertiser sensitivity it wouldn't be seen favourably if they were to print things like that.

Also unless you had 'proof' you'd be opening yourself up to litigation from the manufacturer/advertiser as well.

[matt]

Why? I don't see any reason for them?:rofl::rofl:

It's all been positive and encouraging talk from where I stand, with some healthy doses of reality thrown in, to keep things 'real'. Discussions like these need a little Yin and Yang....:thumbsup:

There's a smilie with a tongue poking out....if you feel that way inclined. But maybe a raspberry blowing smilie is something the IIS admin team can look at, while they're examining the e-zine proposal?:D

[el_draco]

I would really love to see this happen and I suspect there may be a number of other people interested. I will do some thinking over the next few weeks I am on holiday and see what pops into mind.

[el_draco]

This is really quite interesting. I understand that many people like a physical thing to read, be it in the dunny or else where, but that problem could be solved with a printer. There are about a thousand differnt things to think about and I am getting a headache, so I am going have a quiet read... in the Dunny ;)

[danielsun]

I totally agree with you there Peter.
I think Sky and telescope is a great mag with all Australian retailers, images from assie amatures, on time and I look forward to the advertisment to see what new gear is out. If you don't like the US content then your reading S&T not AS&T.
If I get the slightest sniff that Sky and Space are coming back I will be jumping straight on them for my undelivered 3 year subscription.

[Miaplacidus]

WRT a possible mag. Initially I thought this would be pretty redundant, since most info is in the Australian Astronomy 2010 annual, and IIS and similar sites provide up to the minute updates anyway. But then there are a lot of astro clubs around the country, and many of them produce their own monthly or bimonthly newsletter, with one or two articles and a sky map, as well as details about what to observe at that time. And I wonder if maybe a lot of the astro clubs would like to outsource that work to a third party, so maybe they would be supportive. (Perhaps it could be rebadged for local distribution, who knows?) It doesn't have to be huge. Maybe just a few pages PDF that people could print out if they wanted.

[stephenb]

I would be quite happy if the next publication was in pdf format. A well presented, indexable, pdf format.

[erick]

Here is another mag that seems to do good business online? I subscribed and read it. Actually I print it (B&W) and read - going back to check the pdf if I need to see the colour version. Just wish they could actually send me an email prompt as they are supposed to when next edition is available.

http://astronomytechnologytoday.com/?l=/issues.asp

[southerncross]

G'day all
Just had a quick read through this thread, and as a newbie to the whole scene and as one that has done the look through the local newsagents for a decent mag to take home and read I find that such resources are very lacking and seem to cater for the "initiated" and advertisers more than those wanting to learn.
Anything that is contained in such mag's that I have purchased I find that I can resource much better and more informative information here on IIS Via threads and asking real ppl questions. Though this still does not impart the traditional dunny read feeling it does cater to my needs a lot more and I can download charts and stuff as needed.

Here is my suggestion, IIS starts it's OWN online mag, a monthly E-Rag that is edited by those interested (read above) and bases the content upon the current make up of the IIS site categories, Beginners such as me all the way up to advanced photo buff's and string theory people.

The info is already there and contributors can be sourced readily from everyday post's, I doubt that people who take the time to make such contributions on a site they already frequent would mind having the same info they post be part of a community they make such contributions to.

Of course this would need to be vetted but I would think that people who freely take their time to help out others and share their knowledge would not have a problem with the same info being shared in an online Mag.

It would be a compiling of the knowledge shared each month and maybe after a period of such issue's some sort of remuneration could be worked out if the E-mag could be seen to be profitable for the site, and contributors in a regular publication could receive a consideration for such contributions.

IIS already has all this information in a form that is readily available to all it's members and in a format that is very relevant to us in the southern hemisphere as opposed to some publications. The calibre of some contributors is first class and comes for free already (this might need looking at) and feedback on products is evident on many threads in regards to products.

As I see it all IIS needs to do is start a new space in their forum and call it a Magazine, denote an Editor and Mod and see what happens, It might not be so easy but I dont see it being so hard. I'm sure many members will be very willing to contribute and the amount of info already available and will provide a ready source of articles for plenty of issues.

A condensed cherry picked version of issues raised on IIS each month would represent an overall version of issues relevant to the Astronomy culture in Aus and what better place to present it than here.

JMHO.

[hotspur]

yes,it was a much better mag,(when it ever did come out) its lay out

was better,content very good,real amateurs could get there pics printed

in it,you did'nt need to own a 6 inch tak and a 200000 SBIG camera for

them to print them,all in all it ashame it gone,i dont like that Amercian Australian mag.its very 'plasticy' i dont buy it all.

[mick pinner]

Mike, nobody can be sued for having an opinion or stating the truth, if you could Top Gear would no longer exist.

[Matt Wastell]

I enjoy AS&T.
I enjoy all astronomy mags.
It wouls appear many others do too.
I get the hard copy concerns but we should start with newspapers first - at least mags are kept.
It is more than just a US cut and paste but each to their own view.
As I like to say often 'time will tell' if it is here to stay.

[matt]

Or any other review-based program on TV or radio....or in magazines.

As long as you're reviewing product performance/attributes you're OK, as it's clearly a review and therefore just your opinion.

What you can't do is express an 'opinion' which then calls the character of a manufacturer or vendor into question in a way which damages their reputation. You can't accuse them of being corrupt or crooked by, say, virtue of the fact their prices are higher than someone else's. However, you won't get sued by simply pointing out that Vendor A's price for an item is X $$$ higher than Vendor Bs. That's just a statement of fact and entirely defensible. It's perfectly OK to point out the specific vendors in a basic scenario like that. It's fair comment and in the public interest.

And any threat of litigation in a situation like that is just hot air.

Anyway....bottom line....don't get mad, get even. Vote with your wallets and buy somewhere else.

If you're not sure what constitutes libel, don't post. It's not worth the risk to the website and those who run it.

[hotspur]

Does anyone know what happened to some of the contributors of

SS? there were two that come to mind,Shevil Mathers of Tassy,and Ian

Sampson,sorry if spelling is incorrect,Those chaps wrote really good articles,easy to understand infomation,their approch to inpart infomation

was really good,I miss ther articles,you wont get articles to that high standard in that other publication.Hope that Shevil and Ian are on ice.

[matt]

Nope. Don't think they are.

I think Shevill pops up on a few of the other Oz astro sites from time to time.

[hotspur]

ah,thats ashame,i felt that the approch those chaps wrote their

articles was one that the really imbraced what amateur astronomy is

all about-getting outside and enjoying the night sky,Their reviews on

products came from the heart,not someone elses purse strings attached.

[iceman]

Ian Musgrave is a member of IceInSpace and posts from time to time.

[jjjnettie]

Sheville frequents the VideoAstro forums.

[hotspur]

got a link for that JJJ?

SSC

[jjjnettie]

Here you go Chris
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/videoastro/