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View Full Version here: : Snake Valley Part III (Collimation & Temperature)


davidpretorius
16-11-2005, 04:41 PM
Part III is a short one due to the fact that it has already been bought up.

One night at star camp, i asked the crowd "what is the next biggest step in getting the imaging process right" You could see bird's brain ticking over and i thought he was about to say "seeing, camera, processing". Bird basically said "controlling the temperature is one of the biggest single improvements he has made in his imaging"

Rewinding back a few days and we were starting to collimate our scopes "properly" for the first time. At the end of the day, it comes down to this.

Be confident but take precautions as you must be able to take your primary mirror out of the base and centre spot it with a binder ring. A black spot is fine like mine, but it is harder to see, so I would always recommend a binder ring. Think it all through. There would be nothing worse than adjusting your secondary and having it drop down onto the primary!!!!
Having centre spotted your primary, then the next step is to tighten up the clips holding the primary so that they are only just finger tight and then get your secondary set up. A sight tube is the best and really the only way. You want a nice long tube so that when you are looking at the secondary mirror, you want to make sure that your eye can't move side to side and thus adjust where you think the secondary mirror is centred. I have a $29 cheshire, but i cannot be more than 75% certain that my secondary is centred properly.
Once the secondary has been adjusted, then it is time to adjust the primary. I believe that this is a two step process:
In daylight, you adjust the primary so that the centre spot is lined up with your cheshire. Here you can have differences. My $29 cheshire was out, when compared to the more expensive cheshires and thus i have to allow an offset.
At night with a star test, or in daylight with a laser, you fine tune the collimation. My biggest mistake here was to try and get the diffraction rings so commonly shown in collimation articles. Firstly choose a brightish star near the zenith and take out of focus. You must do your star test when the star is in the middle of the field of view. You then adjust the primary. This is always done best with two people. Now to my mistake: unless the seeing conditions are very very good, then you won't see diffraction rings.

This is the basic collimation process, now how does temperature affect it. We are all told "cool your scope". Yes, cool your scope and larger eyepieces so that everything is the same temperature. Then there should be no air currents formed by temperature differences to affect your viewing. The biggest thing I found out was that if the temperature drops during the night quite quickly, then you are back to square one!!!! Wait another 1/2 hour!!!!
Do not collimate or think your scope may be out of collimation unless the temperature has been steady for at least 1/2 hour. Come back and have another look and see if the viewing has picked up due to steady temperatures. Most of the guys comment that early morning is the best time to view and that is because the temperature during the night is as low as it will get and thus steady!!!



Birds elaborate temperature controlling systme is not for the fun of it and I may have secretly giggled initially, but as he said "It is one of the most important factors" and "He is spot on"

A quick example:- Here is me one night at star camp with a newly collimated scope and my $150 ultrawide 82 degree 30mm looking at orion. Along comes john with his 32mm Televue ultra wide (version before the panoptic). "Look at this view mate" says John. I am shaking with anticipation and so grateful that John is sharing his very expensive eyepiece in my scope. Earlier in the night I was so happy with how sharp the stars were once i had got properly collimated. John puts the eyepiece in and I would have to say, that the view was no different!!!!

John then has a look and says the same. Hmmmm, it must be out of collimation.......so we start the process of collimation......"hang on" yells bird, "the temp has fallen 1 degree in the last few minutes".

A very expensive eyepiece has been made to look bad, mistakenly taken for out of collimation by a falling temp!!!!.

By the way, the expensive eyepieces did look good thru my scope, but that is a later part.

Next: Observing Summary.

slice of heaven
16-11-2005, 06:08 PM
Nice one Dave, I like the example of temp affecting the visual image. I asked before but anyone with an idea how close to ambient the mirror should be for the visual viewers? Is it that critical that temp sensors are warrented for visual? I'd gladly slip some on my scopes if I knew there was a definite need, or would just monitoring the ambient temp be enough for a guide?
Anyhow, I like these reports, they give the non-attendees a glimpse on the starcamps happennings.

davidpretorius
16-11-2005, 06:18 PM
I seem to remember Bird suggesting 1/2 degree.

I would suggest as a bare minimum getting two. One for the mirror and one for ambient.

Remember, this visual stuffing up was after a fall of aprox 1 degree in say 5 to 10 minutes. Bird has a graph of that night which i will try and dig up.

Bird got his temp sensors up and running for around $100 i think. I would like to hunt around for say 2 cheap independent sensors and displays for say under $50 in total if possible.

Or like you say, at least one near the scope to monitor ambient and then if there is a drop, wait 1/2 hour for newts!

asimov
16-11-2005, 06:20 PM
In bad seeing conditions I use a aperture mask to see the diffraction rings. They maybe wavering around, but it's still possible to collimate good enough for visual use.

Slice, 1 deg. from ambient is enough to see the difference visually.

slice of heaven
16-11-2005, 06:36 PM
Thanks Dave and John, 1/2 to 1 degree sounds worth the effort then.It would give me an idea when to turn the fans on/off or run them faster/slower and get the most out of them. The independent sensors setup sounds simple and within my capabilities, good idea Dave. Let us know if you find a good source. Thanks again.

asimov
16-11-2005, 06:45 PM
I still do it the old fashioned way: Train the scope on a star/planet & de-focus, if it's wavering around a lot it's either an above ambient mirror or seeing conditions. With a bit of practice it becomes easier to distinguish between those two.

asimov
16-11-2005, 06:47 PM
Would be interesting to get birds comments here.

davidpretorius
16-11-2005, 06:50 PM
as panicky parents of our first born, we bought a temp sensor from the chemist so that if the room got too hot, we could come in and save our child!!!!! (you all know that feeling)

anyway, two of those sensors may work from a chemist. I will check out the price and also test it tonight, weather permitting!!!

davidpretorius
16-11-2005, 06:53 PM
he has already posted last week and put links to his website. He wrote a ripper of a article that I hope mike puts in the article section.

I can imagine your parkes mirrors sniggering at temp sensors!!!!!!

"hey sensor, yeh you!!, come and measure this!!!"

asimov
16-11-2005, 07:13 PM
I have tried those cheap stick on fish tank thermo's. Not sure how accurate they are though. I wack the OTA in the lounge room with the air-con on & when it gets close to the the same as the (fish tank) thermo outside, In the cradle the OTA go's. I then turn on the 12V fan I have rigged on the back of the mirror. It would be good to have a more sophisticated system though!

slice of heaven
16-11-2005, 07:24 PM
I'll admit I've been ignorant of the thermal state after the initial cool down period. Though since I've started using fans with variable speed and running them to keep dew at bay through the night I'm getting better viewing, maybe the result of cooling the mirrors through the night.
Flying blind without sensors seems a bit outdated in this day and age the more I think about it, a few $$$ spent would at least give me peace of mind knowing where I'm at.

Starkler
16-11-2005, 07:45 PM
My next project (after getting the argo working) is a fan for the dob.

No not just a fan stuck to the back of the mirror cell, but a fan mounted to a plywood disc, sealed against the back of the scope with weatherstrip to give airflow around the mirror and up the tube to flush away the boundary layer.

bird
16-11-2005, 08:00 PM
Gads, turn my back for a couple of hours and look what happens.. a whole thread appears out of nowhere...

First, there's a link to the temperature graph for that night on my website along with three avi's showing how the seeing went from poo to perfect as the night went on and the temps all lined up. The link is

http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/cooling/ballarat/

umm, and an article that describes the temperature sensor thingie that I built... it's really just a prototype, hence all the wires n stuff haning out where everyone can point and giggle, but it works:

http://www.acquerra.com.au/astro/equipment/temp-logger/

You can see where the temp was stable for a while and then suddenly started to plummet at around 11pm. After a few minutes of this I went for a walk around the various groups and heard a few grumbles about poor seeing, including the incident DP related in his post.

I'd agree with asimov and others here that getting the mirror to within about 1 degree of ambient should be considered the bare minimum, if you can do better then you should because the results will be worth it. If you look at the 2nd avi on that link then you'll see how a difference of about 1 effects the image, compare it to the 3rd avi when the difference is down to less than 0.25 and the improvement is remarkable. 1 degree doesn't sound like much but it's enough to set up a boundary layer that distorts the effective shape of the mirror by *a lot* (technical term).

If the mirror is more than 2 degrees warmer than ambient then you'll just see a fuzzy blob and you're not likely to get anything to focus.

It sort of puts things in perspective when you can have a wonderful scope, pefect collimation, beautiful mirror, expensive camera, and have it all ruined by a warm layer of air coming off the primary. That pretty much describes how I spent the mars opposition of 2003...

Okay, you refractor guys can stop sniggering now :P

regards, Bird

bird
16-11-2005, 08:06 PM
Some people are no doubt wondering why a temperature difference makes collimation difficult... when there's a warm layer in front of the mirror you'll get a plume of hot air rising and cold air around the outside falling, this will destroy the precise image needed to see diffration rings, and when they do momentarily appear they will be distorted by these air currents. If you watched them and believed what you were seeing to be true then you'd end up chasing your tail trying to get these rings to be centered. As the boundary layer gets better or worse then the amount of distortion changes. There's really nothing that can be done until all the boundary layer and other tube current related convection stops.

regards, Bird

slice of heaven
17-11-2005, 07:29 AM
I've done that, makes a big difference compared to an open back, but I still feel I have the need for a baffle to deflect more air over the mirrors face.


Thanks Bird, you've sold me on the idea, I like mods that give me the best chance of getting the most out of the scopes.