What is a Higgs Bosen anyways?

[xelasnave]

On the positive negative assumption there may be others who do not understand the importance of the HB and may enjoy the informative replies my question here may generate I post this post which may seem silly but is my way of trying to get a handle on why such huge sums of money are being spent on this small matter which must have huge relevance to confirming the assembly of theories that make up the "cold dark matter standard model" ...

So with respect and anticipartion of interesting input from members I ask what is the HB particle anyways:shrug::question::)...

my understanding is limited and perhaps incorrect but my understanding of the HB is that it is a particle (a fundamental particle which I assume means it has no moving parts:P:) I guess) that (said HB) gives other particles mass... and that the HB so far has not been observed whereas all the other particles predicted by the "standard model" have been observed...


Could it be that earlier theory that asserted there were particles with no mass be incorrect?..

It would seem reasonable that "anything" no matter how small would have mass even if humans could not detect it..(via observation as opposed to math determination)
So is the HB absolutely necessary for the standard model to remain valid?
Does the standard model have HB's flying around all over the place through out the entire universe and therefore available to any matter that needs mass?

or does the HB reside within all matter and particles?... and if so how can a fundamental particle gain its mass (being fundamental to me suggests a unity of that particle that would eliminate the opportunity of inclusion of any other particle ..even a HB.

If we are in outter space..say in one of the massive voids ..the realm of nothing... will we have HB's flying around ready to give mass to any particle that may need it...or must HB's be bound always to matter such we must smash stuff to observe one or two disappearing into the distance...and if we set one or two free where will they go?

Could a black hole simply be where many HB's come to rest such that there is a massive concentration of these mass giving particles?
alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

AND could dark matter actually be made up of "free" HB,s in storage available to an expanding universe and the current model of gravity that requires attraction via bodies mass...
alex

[FredSnerd]

He's a mate of mine. His name is actually Bosen Higgs. But you know whenever you fill in forms they get you to state the surname first. Well thats what happened to Bosen. He's a card. I can introduce you to him some time if you like.

[AstralTraveller]

Apparently there used to be a bloke by the name of Charlie Prince. He had a lot of trouble with forms like that. :lol:

[FredSnerd]

:lol::lol::lol:

[renormalised]

I've figured out why people these days are getting fatter...there's been an outbreak of Higgs bosons and they've added mass to everyone:P:P:D:D

So, no need for hugely expensive and delicate particle accelerators to find the Higgs...just watch everyone's waistlines:P:P:D:D

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Alex,
You're clearly going to have to go somewhere else to get any sense.:rolleyes::D
In fact your explanation is as good as anyone has been able to give, but try: www.higgs-boson.com (http://www.higgs-boson.com) or www.astroengine.com (http://www.astroengine.com)
Honestly you lot.....
PJH

[leinad]

http://www.wonderlandblog.com/wonderland/2008/09/plushie-higgs-b.html

:lol:

[avandonk]

Gravity is the enigmatic force. Only becuse it does not fit in with the fully self consistent Quantum Physics that fully decribes the very small.

It is a piss weak force compared to all the rest.

Yet it controls all star formation and nucleosynthesis that has formed all of us.

The hypothetical Higgs Boson is the so called 'particle' that produces the attractive force of 'gravity'.

If you understand 'the standard model' then you may understand. If not you have no hope!

Bert

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Bos'un Higgs sailed with my Grandfather in WWI. He was drowned in a vat of "Dark Fluid" when a rogue Brane accidently manifested in this dimension. :)
Sorry Alex.

[xelasnave]

Of course I know what it is:lol::lol::lol::eyepop: I just thought others could help others interested in "science" by placing their observations on the matter here in this very thread...not only help others but maybe question their knowledge about exactly what is known in these areas ;)....and when one thinks of the wonderful discussions that flow from chats relating thereto I thought offerring the opportunity for others to discuss this stuff may be better than a chat about global warming and the proposed taxes and profit seeking such will generate:shrug:.

Personally I think the standard model is crap:eyepop:... folk say I am a dreamer etc with stupid notions but I feel one does not have to look past "super symetry" to get a story of stuff we dont know about but in the absence of common sence can allow speculation upon how things may work with little evidence provided for the concept of particle partners that some really wish were present in our universe er in that other universe where the super partners reside:P..

So in an effort to kick off some sort of meaningful or entertaining chat such that I felt many could well enjoy I started this thread:D... and lets face it we already have seen folk offer humour as well as other less cheerful emotions coming forward:thumbsup: ..hopefully not only to inform but also to entertain:thumbsup::thumbsup:.

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Who really understands the standard model such that they can convey its general premise to those they would call "laymen":shrug:.... or is it so wonderful that it will always remain beyond the mere mortals brain:D..for goodness sake such a high stance Bert places you in no better position than a priest saying you can only understand the concept of God if you can read Latin or you can only talk to GOd via a human that is really God as well:rolleyes:..and Bert if I did not respect you so much I would not take the time to point out that others may think your tone could be taken as condecending and that you are becoming aflicted with old age crankyness:D. So put your teeth back in and hit me with a neat put down reply:P.
It is clear however if the HB is out there it can only work via a system I would simply call push as even to this day there is no experiment that establishes "attraction" as a force... discuss:D.

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Thanks for the link but dont blame any for fooling around..I invited such to keep this a general chat from which folk may learn something about the ellusive HB.
alex

[dugnsuz]

Coming from Edinburgh, I knew a Higg's offspring!

[bloodhound31]

ouch,:scared2: my head.

[michaellxv]

Isn't this an oxymoron. How could a void, being something empty or vacant, be described as massive, something with a lot of mass?

[avandonk]

I am terribly sorry xelasnave, I only spent the last forty years studying science. All those years of battling with the mathematics did not come easy.

To compare my knowledge with some sky pilot who believes in fairies or a supreme invisible being is a total cop out.

If you take the time to learn what science is about, you will find it is self consistent and open to any test.

The folks who believe in invisible friends are deluded a best and misguided at worst.

Ignorance is no excuse. Please do some basic study of what has already been verified.

Bert

[renormalised]

Standard Model of Particle Physics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model)

Higgs Boson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_boson)

Nice and simple.....

[renormalised]

Now, for a little bit more complicated

The Higgs Mechanism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism)

Gauge Theories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_theory)

That should keep you busy:D

[xelasnave]

I think you are correct Michael and your observation offers more support for the benefits of knowing stuff:thumbsup:.

So how can we describe a huge expance of nothing:shrug:? mmm I will think about this as clearly this aspect needs addressing:P.

Massive is a word in popular use that is perhaps used incorrectly to indicate a large size when as you correctly point out the term must relate to "mass" ... mm yes clearly it finally will depend on the prescence or absence of the HB and their number one would expect before a proper qualification can be arrived at:rolleyes:... nothing is not as simple to explain as a casual initial observation may show:eyepop:.

Thank you for your valuable input:thanx:.

alex:):):)

[stephenb]

Alex, thank you for trying to explain it. I do not full y understand it (like many technical and scientific subjects that exist in the world), so by some people's standards I must be an inferior, uneducated, God-fearing buffoon. If only I had spent my entire adult life learning science, I may be seen as a more superior human. Never mind.

Thanks again for trying to explain the HB for us poor uneducated types, Most of us appreciate your efforts.

[xelasnave]

Bert there is no need to appologise that you only have done 40 years of study ...there is no need to be so hard on yourself as in that time you must have picked up something that gave you some understanding of science:D

AND the math is not always easy and you should be proud you hung in there:D

AND I do think your knowledge will prove more valid than the invisable sky pilot just dont be as certain of the facts as his ground crew seem to be or you will get tarred with the same brush was the point:rolleyes:. and whats wrong with seeking a total cop out as this seems the way our leaders approach all issues...

I do take the time to learn about science and the disiplines and do get confused when I see so many "scientific" theories failing to meet the tests science call for... I have noticed some "theories" fail to enlist experiment and yet still fausily claim the noble title of "theory"... I guess that is why I find difficulty in accepting the notion of attraction being a given for it seems to me it has never been scientifically established and seized upon too readily to explain stuff that could work in another manner... but lets be clear I am probably a greater sceptic than you when it comes to accepting what observations are fact... it seems to me that the prediction aspect of the scientific method has a lot of folk grasping facts in an exclusive manner such that consideration of alternatives is eliminated ...and I dont mean BS alternatives I mean more in the nature of the elimination of consideration of more research...
You accept the necessity for many samples to be observed before reaching a conclusion but it does seem this simple aspect of scientific method is missed on many occassions and one observation has folk proclaiming the job is done... you worked as a scientist and well aware of sample and I bet you must notice some overlook the hard work of sampling...inflation theory is one I grad at to make my point... as far as I can tell it is still a hypothisis with no experiment in support and certainly no ranges of samples from a large number of "tests" from which to average sample results...

If I have offerred ignorance as an excuse I withdraw from that position and confess I know a little more sometimes than I let on ...how much I do or do not know will remain hidden from me because one simply can not know what one does not know so there is no marker to rank current knowledge with...however I have read everything I can on theoretical physics and recognise that I offer an example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing... but standing back I dont buy the supersymetry thing for me it is hairy fairy and irrespective of the math that supports it I simply can not accept the premise of super partners anymore than I can accept the sky pilot trip ...show me God I will believe show me a super partner and I will believe but until then both will never be accepted by this sceptic.

Bert I say this with absolute sincerity... it is a great honner for me to talk to you and the other professional scientists here.. clearly the different backgrounds make it difficult for all to understand where the others are coming from but all these threads help folk like me who are not professionals but nevertheless have a profound interest in "everything"... I have taken the stance to present as a MUG...not always the easiest course to knowledge but I find from that position folk are happy to correct and guide ... I have no personal pride and never have problems when folk point to what I may not know or understand... but I do hear them and act as best I can on their advice... I study to the best of my abilities and situation with a happy acceptance that I am only standing on the outside looking in... you cant know a trade until not only studying it but also working in the field..as you have... I am not foolish to the degree such point pass me by.

BUT happily I have no degree in science that will be considered for recall when I offer alternatives... so nothing to lose nothing to gain ..no problem.

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Thanks Carl for the links... I still havent finished the Stanford lectures that Mark suggested because I have difficulty with finding time these days but my interest is still unwavering.

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

Stephen I cant explain the HB and it was not an attempt to do so... What I covered was merely my attempt to explain how little I knew hoping someone would jump in with an example or story..whatever ..that would be profound and simple such it would all become clear...
If I may suggest this to you...it matters not what other folks standards are or their qualification of your worth.. it only matters (in my view) that you are happy with yourself .. there will always be greater or lesser persons so there is no point in looking up to or down upon another...... and if you look at most folk they know less than they profess although they are ignorant of what they dont know

and even the folk who are not spiritual sometimes find themselves asking God..why me? ... ..

Who we are turns on our beliefs and beliefs are just that..belief.. when you really look at stuff even facts are built from a belief..it could be a belief in God or science or in my case a belief that I have no belief in anything... so all facts need qualifying within the context of what belief system does that person work with... now if you can believe that all will be good.

Thanks for your support and interest.

alex:):):)

[TrevorW]

If the Higgs boson exists then based on this it would be possible to make anti gravity if I'm reading it right ????

[xelasnave]

I dont know about that:question:....unless there is an anti HB:D... I doubt there is any opportunity for anti gravity in a push universe as the energy required to push against the universal push would need to be huge.... look at the energy NASA rockets require to push a rocket into space;)

But you raise in my mind the question... does super symetry require that the HB have a "super" partner... and if it does I dont believe it:lol::lol::lol:...still if super symetry is the go all particles have a "super" partner so I guess the HB must have one as well:shrug:...

alex:):):)

[michaellxv]

From my brief reading discussion on HB appear to use a different definition of mass to what I am used to.

To me a traditional idea of mass uis a measure of how much stuff you have. i.e 1Kg of water (if measured acurately enough) tells you how many water molecules you have.

When you get down to the level of HB this concept of mass equating to the number of particles does not hold. So what then is the definition of mass?