Caution to Travellers US couple jailed for not tipping

[Allan_L]

....and from unusual stories from America .....




When is a gratuity really a mandatory?

[Kal]

Do you have a link?

This sounds rather absurd, the whole premise behind the tipping is to reward end encourage good service (which I found while travelling, the service over there is much better than over here). If the gratuity is forced then they should just do what fast food places do and increase the menu prices and not ask for it. If it is called gratuity then the customer should have the option to not pay if the service is poor!

Being the US they will probably have a good case to sue the police force now anyway and make a million dollars.

[Ian Robinson]

The gratuity is a optional as far as I have heard and I've never given one by the way .

Since when was it made compulsory to pay an extra 18% tip (which is a pretty big BTW) over there ?

Another reason why I never plan on visting the USA , really , why would you want too ?

I think this story is a load of bull dust ....

[Omaroo]

What a completely ludicrous thing to say.

In the USA, most waitstaff and bartenders in restaurants are paid below the minimum wage, because the employees are expected to make up the difference, so to speak, in tips. This means that a server could earn far above minimum wage on a good night, or hardly break even on a slow night. Servers are even expected to pay income tax on your tips -- they truly are part of their normal wages for the job they do, not just "extra" money for them.

Even including tips, most average restaurant meals that you buy in the States are cheaper than they would be here. I don't see the problem...

[kustard]

A friend of mine travels to the US once a year and says that tipping is virtually compulsory. They get very very upset if you don't tip or don't tip enough.

Only in the US....

[matt]

Yes. I've been 'swatting' up on the whole tipping system ahead of my trip in 2010.

It's a bit confusing when you're not used to it, because different services attract different tips.

[wasyoungonce]

That's because their basic wage is quite a bit lower than in Australia...even with the conversion rates. I could never understand why Johnny Howard wanted Australia to have a lower basic wage like the US model.

Anyway, they (the service industry workers) are also taxed on a % extra that they would have earned (potential) in tips based upon their actual income. So not tips...they get a double whammy!

The flip side is basic foods & consumables are cheaper.

[wavelandscott]

Although it might be extreme, I am not that surprised by this story. Many restaurants will say clearly on their menus that large groups (could be 6 or more) will attract an automatic 18% gratuity. Especially if more than 1 waitstaff is used.

As has been pointed out, many restaurants in the USA will pay help less than minimum wage with the expectation that tips will put them over the top.

Waistaff are responsible for all income taxes (state and federal).

Depending on the restaurant, tips may be pooled and shared by others in the service chain (hostess, busboy, bartender, dishman etc.)....you can imagine how this might influence behaviour...

Okay, here is a rough tipping guide...

Poor service - ask to speak with the manager
Below average service - 10% before tax
Average (good) service - 15% before tax
Great service > 15% before tax...

Remember, if the food is bad but the service getting it there was good a tip would be in order.

[toryglen-boy]

I lived in the US for about 6 months, while working on a contract, and apart from the ignorance of some people, and some ridiculous "unspoken laws" like this one, i loved it. i thought it was a great place, all things considered.

All these people saying "dont go to the USA", have you actually been there? i dont think i have ever been made to feel so welcome, in all my life, when i was in the US. Infact, at the risk of starting something, some Aussies who work in both the leisure and retail industries, could learn a thing or two about learning from thier attitiude.

Honestly, some of the post in here just scream of xenophobia, they have thier customs, as outlandish as some of them seem down under, and Australia has her own.

;)

[Omaroo]

Hear hear Duncan. Bloody unbelievable. :rolleyes:

Apologies to all of our American members and friends. Again.

[JethroB76]

Do you really need to ask?:lol:

[iceman]

I've removed the anti-american posts from this thread.

C'mon guys, if you haven't got anything nice to say, don't post.

We have lots of members in the US, and that sort of sentiment is just not warranted or welcome.

[matt]

Good to see

[jjjnettie]

One expects a little culture shock when one travels overseas.
Every country is different and that's the allure.
I guess that because we invite the US into our homes every evening on the telly, we expect it not to be any different to Oz.
Now what's that saying.
"When in Rome do as the Romans do."

[FredSnerd]

Ohhh dear me. Its precisely this reasoning that perpetuates the system that allows employers to avoid properly paying their employees and transferring the risk of running a business to their employees. There really isn’t much hope for us when we pedal this kind of reasoning by rote; just like we were taught.

[multiweb]

Bloody oath! I'm on a "vegemite bootcamp" :P Nah... new year resolutions ... maybe :lol:

[Allan_L]

The link:

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1


I heard it on the radio this morning, and found this link via Google.

I agree it sounds unbelievable, that is why I posted it.
As said by jjjnettie One expects cultural differences between countries. That is one of the joys of travelling, to explore cultural differences, and force oneself to look at things from another point of view. Eyeopening.

If it turns out to be a myth, it has fooled more than just myself.

Anyone who knows how to Google would see that there is a lot of chat about this at the moment.

[toryglen-boy]

i think this was meant to be more about the difference in values and behaviour, as opposed to "workers of the world unite"

Thats there, this is here.

thats it!

[Omaroo]

That may be Claude - but that's how it's been in the USA for decades - and it's worked, by and large. The tip system is designed to FILL the hole left by minimum wages and that's why people over there are upset by fools who come into the country refusing to pay because they don't need to at home. it's not as though workers over in the US are ultimately underpaid - it's just that their pay comes from two sources - wages and tips rather than wages alone. To add to that - if good service is given then the workers who are willing to work harder to provide that service are rewarded for it. In that light - it's a very good system.

[FredSnerd]

Chris, you say that their emploment contract fixes their salery below minimum wage (I think you suggest that it can be very much below minmum wage). In other words less then what normal people would regard as fair or enough to manage from week to week. But they can make up their salery depending on the caprice and charity of their patrons. That is, employees putting in a minimum of 40 hours a week have to rely on charity to get a fair wage for their efforts and you're conclusion is that "its a very good system". Not in my book I'm affraid, no matter how much of a good time Duncan had when he was there.

[Omaroo]

You're failing to acknowledge how it works Claude. I'm guessing that you may not've actually been there.

Wages are typically set at (for any one industry) a known percentage below what is considered an "award" basic wage - to be made up in tips that are EXPECTED to be paid direct by the customer. Don't confuse "charity" with tips - they are nothing to do with each other. Tips are wages paid by the customer to the worker direct - rather than to the business, that's all. The customer has the option to pay more than required - which then properly goes to the worker and NOT the business owner. If a worker decides to skite off and perform their work poorly, then there is a mechanism that results in them not being paid for what they agreed to otherwise do - ie. provide service.

You're inferring that they are underpaid, poor souls. They're not - unless you don't understand the system and refuse to pay them their entitlement.

What they probably should do is stop referring to tips as "gratuity". That's misleading. This is a historic term and really shouldn't still be used in the context that it is.

[renormalised]

It's worked by and large, Chris, because the workers have allowed it to, seeing that it's part of their work culture to supplement their wages with handouts (which is basically what a tip is...."I've done well, please give me more"....almost Dickensian). The fact that governments in the US have allowed this practice to go on for decades just shows you how much they actually give a rat's about the welfare of their workers, especially those near the bottom of the wages rung. Many restaurants and food outlets take advantage of tipping, that's why the minimum wage is so low compared with places like here and elsewhere. It's nothing more than another form of exploitation..."I'll make my profits and bugger you Jack, you get the rest of your money from somewhere else".

I've worked in the hospitality industry here in Oz and even though the wages here aren't much chop themselves, I'd much prefer to work here than in the US. At least I'd know my wages were guaranteed to be paid to me at the specified rate and that the income was stable, not subject to the whims of the customers and bosses.

But, as they say, each to themselves and if the workers in the US want to live like that, then that's their problem. If they were smart, they'd make it clear to both the business owners and the government that they should be paid a half decent minimum wage, that was set in legislation and guaranteed to be paid.

What these business people and the government forget about is this, if the workers didn't work in the industry or they decided that enough was enough, these businesses would go broke. You can't have a business like hospitality if no one will work for you.

[Omaroo]

I'm just wondering where I said that I like or agree with the system Carl. If I were in hospitality - which I've never been - then I think that I'd prefer a fixed wage too. At least I could bank on it. What I'm saying is that from living in the USA or a number of years both on the East and West coasts, my observations were that the workers themselves are pretty OK with the system in general. They know that they can get more than the fixed amount if they please the customer. Note I said "please", not just work harder. Note that tips over there are RARELY IF EVER not paid by a customer. It's the foreigners who don't know the system that are the usual culprits - hence stories like the one here. I don't know of any American I met that didn't pay the tip willingly - even if they didn't pay more than expected. You just don't not pay! There's very little risk of not getting your expected tips for a nights work.

I actually had a friend over there who was putting herself though uni at Harvard and worked in a classy restaurant to help. She would have, every few of weeks, a higher than normal set of bills to pay. All she needed to do was to put on the charm and she'd cover the bills in extra tips over a couple of nights. It worked for her.

[renormalised]

That's something you've inferred by what I wrote and it's not what I said:D

What I said was is basically what you have said...it's part of their work culture and they live with it. As I had put it, the whole system is Dickensian...in actual fact it's in the 18th and 19th Centuries when tipping developed as precisely that...go cap in hand to the customer to beg for more money in order to supplement lousy wages (if they got any at all). I would have thought that in the proceeding 2 centuries (or at least from the later half of last century) that our work practices and ethics would've evolved beyond indentured slavery. Seems not.

[Bloodbean]

I feel sorry for people like you... :shrug:

[renormalised]

That is a prime example of the crassness that's expected in the US in order to make ends meet. I feel sorry for her that she'd even have to go about "laying it on thick" in order to cover her expenses. The fact that she even had to do so is an indictment on their culture...no wonder they're $10 trillion in debt. Unfortunately for them, no one else wants to pay them a tip so now they can't cover themselves...the "charm offensive" won't work anymore.

[OzRob]

It's not a good advertisement for the establishment concerned. I know that if it was a restaurant close to where I lived I would not go there after hearing something like this.

[Omaroo]

Carl - she lays it on thicky in order to get more than she normally would - and probably more than an Australian working here in an equivalent role might get truth be known. She can nearly double her salary - which is already "reasonable" in her eyes. Not bad - and at least she has a mechanism by which she can accomplish it. It's not as though she has to do party tricks. She just smiles a bit more and people react accordingly. What's wrong with that? Her uni fees are astronomical (Harvard!!!!), and she's not there on a grant or scholarship - so it's not as though she could hope to cover them working in hospitality there or even here. Making more than the standard wage is something to applaud - not denigrate. Again, the inference is that she's being underpaid and made to dance nude to come up to what we'd call a normal wage, and that this is typical in America - it's simply not the case.

The notion that we should all be paid a standard wage that is inflexible, for the sale of it being stable, quick frankly smacks of well... we may as well be wearing standard grey.

[FredSnerd]

Its so depressing how willing we are to be so hard on ourselves that we cant even see the wretchedness of an employer who wont even pay a minimum wage (because over the years they have hijacked for themselves the benefit of what was really a well intentioned gesture between patron and employee) and yet no even bat an eye when millions are paid in bonuses to corporate executives and trillions are handed over to bail out the richest institutions on earth because it seems now that we took them too seriously and that they were only really playing for funsies.Oh but look!!!! Keep an eye on those working people and make sure they dont get away with anything because really, they'll skin you dry.

[Omaroo]

WHERE Claude, has it been said that employers aren't paying a "minimum" wage? Jeez! American workers in the hospitality industry ARE paid a minimum wage, beyond which they have the capacity to expand it IF they take the trouble to. Even if they don't, standard tips bring them up to what government determines is a liveable minimum - just like it is HERE.

Cikey - what a bunch of "whoa is me's" you fellas are. No-one discussed corporate salaries in relation to the original thread - why should you? What have they do do with the topic at hand?

[FredSnerd]

Chris, you will forgive me but this account of how it works on the ground is, well, a bit fanciful I'm affriad. She just doubles her $$$ which, in her eyes was always reasonable even though its below minimum wage. Please!

[FredSnerd]

Thats what you said Chris

[renormalised]

It's still a party trick, no matter how well you dress it up. A person's wages shouldn't be determined on how courteous she/he is to people or whether she/he provides good service, it's supposed to be based on how long they work for and the rate for the job in question. That she should be courteous to the customers is a given, it's part of her job description. It's good to see what she makes from it, but why should anyone have to jump through extra hoops in order to make up their wages...and what was her standard wage to begin with?? It can't have been too great if she's doubling it through tips.

It's a miracle she put herself through Harvard...I know what the fees are like for courses over in the US. I contemplated doing postgrad studies there a few years back, till I saw how much I would've had to fork out just to even live on campus, let alone pay for tuition fees and such. However, she must've had extra income from some other source...just to do an undergrad degree over there can cost upto $30-50K a year, depending on the course. Heaven help her if she was doing postgrad!!!.

At least she was working somewhere with a bit of class...or at least with the ethical position not afforded to so many of her workmates elsewhere over there. Like I said previously, it's an indictment on their culture in general.

[Omaroo]

LOL! No - no-one could ever hope to put themselves through an ivy league school on restaurant wages. Her family is pretty well off - and come from Rhode Island. She's just "doing her bit" to contribute- which is pretty admirable of her. She was brought up on high moral standards.

As far as doubling her wage in tips - it ISN'T hard!!!! She gets about US$12.00 per hour as a table waitress, which is pretty normal in that business there. One tip along would see her get a $20. I don't see that happening over here.

[Kal]

I seem to be in the minority because having experienced both systems, I think that the US system based around tips is far better than the Australian system. Australian service at restaurants falls far short of the quality of service in the USA, and it is because over there you HAVE to provide good customer service to guarantee your income.

[FredSnerd]

I gotta meet this lady. She's perfect. I think I'm in love.

[FredSnerd]

Actually Andrew I was in the USA in 97. I didnt share your experiance I have to say. They wernt too bad but not even close to the standard of service we get in Australia. And the worst thing was food quality and cleanliness. Did'nt come close to Australian standards in my opinion. As for which is the better system well that depends of course on what your criteria is. I cant say that I would use the criteria you are using.

[Omaroo]

Yes, BUT - and it's a BIG BUT.... "minimum" refers to what they get as their collective standard acceptable weekly take-home. The boss DOES pay them less than this - but it's the way this structure works that sees their total come back into the realms of reasonable pay....

I.e.:

Weekly take-home is considered good at $500 per week (for instance).

This is made up of (excluding taxes for the sake of simplicity):

$350 in hourly wages from the "boss".
$150 in tips (or wages) direct from the patrons. These are NOT negotiable, or paid based on how "pleased" a customer is. They are EXPECTED.

How can the boss be "ripping" the worker off IF (and this is the kicker) it's EXPECTED from the patrons - nationally - that the extra $150 or MORE comes from them to bring up their total to what we'd expect a good wage to be over here. The only difference between there and here is this. If a meal cost me $50 here - I'd give the total to the restaurant owner, and out of that they'd pay the labour component to the worker who served the table. In the US, I'd pay probably $40 or less for the meal (better value typically - if, as Claude says, not always as nice) and give the waitress $10 as part of her wagein the "form" of a "tip". That's 20%, but you get my drift. The owner is happy, because part of his/her wages bill is being paid by me, and therefore they can provide the meal cheaper.

I fail to see how this can be considered unfair! If the patrons (like some here on IIS) refused to pay tips as a matter of point, and this became endemic - then things would have to change. Remembers - the term "tip" is merely a historic one. It's really "wage component number two".

What you've all missed, sadly, is that for those that wish to work harder and "nicer", they're rewarded by tips that usually exceed the standard - bringing their total wage well up on what the "standard" wage is - and this is a bad thing? :lol:

[matt]

Chris....

Pull out now...for the sake of your health, man!!!!!:lol:

[Omaroo]

Yep - good advice Matt.

Head...brick wall.

[Octane]

lol, astronomy.

[renormalised]

Thought so...you'd be flat out going through an "ordinary" university or college over there on those wages!!!:P:D

$12 an hour is not good wages...even juniors out here can earn better than that, even part time...at least here in QLD. They don't need to be tipped, their wages are quite adequate. Kids working at the fast food chains get paid less, but then again those establishments don't like paying any of their workers what they're worth. I know from experience.

In any case, what benefits was she being paid on top of her wages...I know for a fact that they don't pay sickness benefits and all the stuff we get here unless it's stipulated as part of their wages/work package by the company someone works for. For the most part, you get paid your wages then you're hung out to dry. Not that she would need them, being from the background she is (her parents would help out). Even out here, though, wages can be a dodgy affair. Some employers are better than others and quite a few places seem to get away with underpaying staff.

However, in equivalent dollar value, she's earning less than what she would as an introductory wage (by nearly $3/hr) and if she worked as a casual, the intro rate is more than 50% higher ($18.20/hr). On top of that she gets the usual benefits. I know where I'd rather work.

[Omaroo]

Absolutely Carl - she gets medical, dental, 401k, etc, etc. It ain't a bad deal really. It's just hard to quantify it without asker her directly, which I, being a gentleman, would not make enquiries of. Our people over here in similar work don't get that.

By and by - transport, cars, rent, fuel, food and other basics are typically cheaper over there. Not across the board, but I found living in the USA on my Aussie salary pretty easy going for my five years there in New York and LA.



Case in point - Chili's Restaurant. Even expected the kids to use their own wage to run as a change float.

[toryglen-boy]

TBH mate, its horses for courses, swings and roundabouts. I would say that the standard of service in the USA is MUCH higher than here in Oz, no scratch that, i dont want to upset my Aussie friends, and rightly so, so lets just say, the standard in the USA is SOOOOOOO much higher here than in Canberra, i am sick of not hearing the magic two words "please" and "thank you" anytime i go to Woden, but i digress.

The quality in the USA is higher because you pay for it, and as Chris has explained, it works. Morally, i feel that its a little outdated, although a by product of that seems to be service staff, really spreading the love for thier money, and i think that can only be a good thing. When i was in the USA, if my service was good, i certainly tipped for it, as there is no right or wrong way, just thier way, and the way here.

:)

[renormalised]

I'll agree with that in so far as the service is better over there, in general, but there are some bad apples over there too, just as there are exemplary places here. But usually bad service or below par (or what's expected) service is a reflection of the establishment and how it's being run, in most cases. Some bosses are just out and out little Hitlers who make life miserable for all (including themselves) and others just don't care or are lax in their own attitudes. It rubs off on the employees. You get that everywhere, not just here. However, whilst paying tips for the customer may provide good service it doesn't necessarily mean that the workers are being treated with any respect or fairly. Just means the workers have to jump through extra hoops in order to make up their wages. If the tips were on top of already good wages, then there might be something to say for the system, but they're not and that's where it's not right....either for the worker or the customers of the establishment.

[Omaroo]

That's the point I'm struggling to see made here Carl. They DON"T have to jump through any hoops - the tip is expected to be paid by the patrons before they walk in to the place, and in turn expected to be received by the worker. It's a set standard. It ISN'T negotiable, or paid only on a whim if the service is exceptional. It isn't. It's just that their wage is split and comes from two sources. The total is still a wage that they can and do live on. It isn't optional - which is why this thread started in the first place. By NOT paying the tip, it was tantamount to theft of the workers wage!

[renormalised]

Sounds like she got a good deal as far as her workplace is concerned. But she still should've gotten a bit more than $12/hr. I've been in jobs very similar to hers in so far as you're the lackey (kitchenhand, cook etc) and gotten all that she did but my wages were nearly double hers. I've also been in jobs where like I said before, they weren't much chop. You're right about the cost of basics over there being cheaper than here...economies of scale (although quite a few here are just greedy so and so's)...but they make up for it in other areas.

[Omaroo]

That really, really depends where you are Carl. There is quite a disparity when it comes to standard wages across the continent.

Don't be a cook (and not get a tip to make it up) in Minnesota, for instance: http://books.mongabay.com/employment/MN/MN_Rochester_35-2014.html



And Duncan - I could NOT agree more.


Always, I would be referred to as "Sir", and be told "You're welcome" and "Come again" by restaurant staff over there.

Here? I can't even remember when a young food-industry worker thanked ME for going to their restaurant.

[renormalised]

That's what I said....it's part of their work culture, but if you look at it from an outsiders PoV and try to look at it objectively, compared to many workers elsewhere, especially here, they are jumping through hoops in order to make a living. The idea of a tip is as a subsidy to workers for the full amount of their wages (or to do better if they can). What I'm saying is that they should be paid adequately enough by their employers a wage that allows them to not bother with tips...i.e. if they get paid, say, $200-$250 by their employer and the minimum wage is $300-$350, then why should they have to worry about the customer subsiding the extra amount by tipping, they should just be paid their wage and be done with it. If they get paid the full wage, and then someone decides to tip them, then that's extra and if it's for good service then more to them. But it's not really a very satisfactory way of earning a living, nor does it make for a steady income.

[renormalised]

Remind me not to even bother looking for work in Rochester!!!!:P:D

[FredSnerd]

I suppose it must come down to what one expects in their service. I'm in Canberra too and the service I get here by far exceeds anything I got in America. But remember I was there in 97, so I don't know if much has changed since then. Also I went all over the East coast (perhaps you were on the West coast). And as for quality, my experiance was the exact opposite. The quality here from your supermarkets to your coffee houses to your retaurants to your takeouts to your McDonalds, just so much better here. I dont agree with your assessment that the system is "morally ... a little outdated". Bit too heavy on the use of euthemism for me.

[Omaroo]

Argghhhh!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!! :) That's my point! They DON'T have to worry. It's always paid! It's not as though they'll miss out! It's not an "extra" amount - it's just part of the total bill! The bill isn't settled and the tip paid separately - it's added to the payable total on the bill. You'll see it there as "Gratuity (@12%: $16)" on its own line in the bill. This is split off by the owner and given to the worker when they receive their normal pay at the end of the period. They don't sit there "begging" for it! LOL!!!!!

If the customer then decides to add more to that - they'll leave a real "gratuity" on the table for the worker if they were exceptional. They then get the percentage of the paid bill in their wages at the end of the week - plus they get to keep the extra cash they were left without declaring it to anyone.

[renormalised]

Yeah but if you're on the roundabout for too long, you'll throw up your food:P:P:D:D

I must admit that the service out here in many places has a lot left to be desired, but that's part of the work culture and ethic that seems to pervade many places...just give the customer the bare essentials and dispense with too many pleasantries. Doesn't make for a good dining experience. Yet I've been to places where they almost lay down the red carpet for you. Like I said before, it all depends on how the business is being run and the personal ethics of those that run them.

Can you imagine complaining at Gordon Ramsey's places...he'd politely listen to your complaint, ask you to maybe come and have a talk with the chef, then divert you hurriedly out the back and beat ten grades of pain out of you!!!!:P:P:D:D

[renormalised]

I still find it objectionable that, as a customer, that I should be made to pay a "gratuity" as part of my final bill, in order to subsidise a worker's wages when the employer is too stingy to make up the difference themselves. Why not just make the meals dearer, then pay the workers the full deal, it achieves much the same outcome. If I'm going to tip anyone, it would be on an individual, personal basis, where I thought the service they provided was worth it, not as a prop up for some establishment's wage bill. If the tips are being paid to the workers over and above their stipulated minimum wage, then that's fine, but not to prop up a poorly paid worker who isn't being paid the minimum wage.

In that case, the business should be dragged through arbitration and made to pay the proper wage to its employees.

[toryglen-boy]

Actually, i was in the states in 97, thats when i was there working, and i was East coast to, Maybe i was a little harsh. The service in Sydney i found to be very good, the service in Melbourne was first class, and people couldnt do enough for you, but yet again, Canberra is utter devoid of any good retail/dining experience, but then again, god knows why this place was made capital, when you have the rest of utopia to choose from, but i digress.

Can you expand on your last comment, about my heavy use of euthemism? i would be very interested to read your findings.

:)

[Omaroo]

I think that Americans are just used to that nomenclature - and that's all it is. I think that it has persisted through the decades for another reason - which has not yet been mentioned.

People in America LIKE to see that part of the money paid to the restaurant actually goes to the worker - and therefore it is declared as a separate item - i.e. a "tip". This gives most a sense of gratitude. Most Americans would think of a system where the money going directly to the waitress is not declared separately (and therefore safely separate from what goes to the owner) as abhorrent.

Total meal prices would be the same if the "tip" was dropped, it would mean that the owner would have to up the price of the billed meal to pay the worker in a different fashion - i.e. directly. It would make no difference to what the worker earned in total - the difference would come from the owner rather than the patron, that's all. I'd be paying from my right pocket instead of my left. Big deal!

[toryglen-boy]

mate, personally I have lost count of how many times you have explained this in full, and i certainly get it, and agree with the system.

it works!

[renormalised]

Canberra is utterly devoid of a great many things and quite a few people have asked the same question:P:D:D

[Omaroo]

It's hard work Duncan! LOL!!

Besides - with the tip component emblazoned on the bill - I defy a crook owner to try and stick it to the waitress by not paying them their entitlement. I believe that the IRS has a particular penchant for these sort of people....

[Omaroo]

When I lived there in '85-'87 Manuka or Kingston were the places to go. There were a couple of decent restaurants to choose from. Not the case any more?

[Waxing_Gibbous]

I worked in restaurants and bars throughout high-school and uni. I even worked for the Roux brothers and Nico Lanidis. I never got more than about $8 an hour, but with tips it could be reasonably lucrative for a student or even a single person. During the "Season" you could make some good dosh. But come winter.....nada. Thank goodness you were working in a restaurant or you'd starve!
Restauranting is a tight margin business, even if you're Gordon Ramsay, and owners factor tips into the wages paid to floor staff. But that is no reason a customer should be forced to tip. It defeats the whole object.

I find the story a tad suspicious as I can't imagine a restaurant going after a customer for a tip let alone having them arrested or a cop arresting them. Who would risk eating there again? They'd be far more likely to sack the FSU for gross misconduct. Or I would anyway!:evil2:
But this was the states so perhaps things have changed a tad in 25 years and its now acceptable to be harrassed by FSUs.

The one thing I do notice about FSUs here is their propensity to ignore you once you've got your grub. I don't think there's anywhere else I can remember where I've had to wait so long to be noticed, have a plate cleared or asked if I want a second drink.
Even if, or especially if, its hugely busy, being acknowledged and served, makes all the difference in the world.
THAT is what you're tipping for!
PJH

[toryglen-boy]

Yeah, Manuka and Kingston are still "ok" if you can stand the people who still think BMW's are prestigeous, and the young adults where daddy paid for everything. its a very concieted, contrived place, like the west end of London, or Glasgow in miniature,

But your right, there are some very good Asian retaurants there.

;)

[Omaroo]

LOL! Nothing's changed! :lol:

[asimov]

Well I'm glad all the anti American posts have gone - Having lived in the US for a year (AND loved it, AND the people) I am not tolerant of 'American bashing' :mad2:

As to the story itself - Yeah it surprises me not.

[renormalised]

Well, no matter which way you like to cut it, it's still an objectionable practice that has been phased out in many places and quite frankly if the workers in the US are silly enough to allow themselves to be underpaid to begin with and have to rely on tips to supplement their incomes, then they only get what they deserve. If others get it over and above their normal (full) wages then good on them. But I shouldn't see why the customer be made to help pay for workers wages just because the scumbag employers won't pay the minimum wages to them, but would rather pocket the profits and expect you to "feel grateful" about eating in the establishment and fork over more money. I'd rather pay for a dearer meal and know that the workers were being properly compensated for their work than eat out at a place who expected me to supplement someone's wages with extra money add to the bill (food + tip). I'd rather go somewhere else, or cook it myself!!!.

[TrevorW]

Question:

1. Pie Chips and Coke for lunch at a takeaway deli in Australia $10 average

2. Places like Ponderosa, Sizzlers, Western Sizzling etc do a fixed price for all you can eat. Last years prices were, all u can eat at breakfast for $4.99, lunch $7.99 and evening meal $9.99 in the US

18% gratuity for lunch $1.44, total lunch for a sit down all you can eat $9.76

Well I'm eating in the US and paying the gratuity makes gastronomic sense to me

[renormalised]

Daddy= politicians and/or public servants??

[renormalised]

Makes sense as far as your hip pocket nerve goes...things are cheaper over there (and most places here are ripoff merchants), but that doesn't make tipping right.

[FredSnerd]

Duncan,

I actually think that the problems Chris has been having explaining it may have something to do with the inherent difficulty of trying to get across the notion that a square peg fits nicely into a round hole. The system is convoluted and misnamed (a gratuity indeed) precisely because its been fiddled over the years so that the employer could effectively snaffle the benefit of the gratuities intended for the employee, by paying less in wages (and below the minimum wage). No doubt that may work for you but it does not mean that it works.

[toryglen-boy]

couldnt tell you! but that end of town is full of the Nouveau Rich, who wouldnt know the value of a $ if it bit them on the nose

;)

[renormalised]

I agree, I have many American friends and they are some of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet. But what some of us are critical of here is the system of supplementing wages and not paying the right (minimum) wage to begin with.

It's good the IRS keeps a close eye on this, otherwise it'd be a free for all as far as many businesses are concerned.

[toryglen-boy]

i never said it worked for me, or that i was in 100% accordance, merely that i understood the principal

can you elaborate on an earlier post of mine, something about the heavy use of euthemism?


:)

[renormalised]

Well, it's as they say, it takes more than one clown to make a circus:P:P:D:D

[FredSnerd]

I got no problems with americans. I dont think I've ever met an american I didnt like. Nice people. Not sure what thats got to do with anything.

[Gallifreyboy]

Would that be euphemism or perhaps euthanasia.... which this thread seems to be in need of......;) :lol:

[toryglen-boy]

you called it, thats why i pressed the issue

;)

[Omaroo]

:lol:

The wage structure is based on an agreed structure between "bosses" and "workers" like an award in essence - but is unfortunately still called a "tip". It is not a case of the customer "helping to pay" the worker. Get that out of your head! There is no subterfuge here on behalf of the owners. It's a known structure that all agree to work with.

When you go into business in the States - like running a restaurant for instance - you know and understand that workers, in general, are partly paid in the form of a tip - leaving you (the owner) to call the rest of their pay a "salary" or "wage". They (the workers) are never getting any less than if they were paid in a single-tier manner like we are here. It's just the way it is done - and it is not "less right" that our system is here. The worker is NOT at a disadvantage because of it, which is what you are still, undyingly, trying to maintain. Employers are not scumbags - they all (repeat: ALL) satisfy the workers pay in the same manner - not just some of them. It's a system - not a cover-up. Paying the tip is MANDATORY on behalf of the customer - not optional. Therefore - how could the owner splitting this component off from the bill be seen as anything other than kosher?

If you look for employment in this sector in the States - you also understand that part of your wages are coming in the form of "tips" - but not to worry as they are guaranteed and non-negotiable. You expect the $20 per hour you agreed to work for to be split between what we call "wage" and "tips". You still get your $20 per hour!! You are not relying on anyone's compassion or good will to earn your full $20 - especially the owners.

It isn't the old days - where the tipping system was originally introduced to offset poor pay and working conditions. This ISN'T the case any more - it's only carried on in name and form. The wages a worker gets are all guaranteed!!! If you are one of the "scumbag" employers you keep referring to - you'd better watch out of you fiddle the books and rip off your employees - the Internal Revenue Service will drag you through hell for it. I think that I've mentioned this already.

Because we aren't used to this system here in Australia - I think that most of you are confused, still, by the term "tip". It isn't, in the USA, just what you leave on the table if you think your service was provided excellently, it is a standard part of the bill. They should probably change that pay component's name to "Service Charge" - which would alleviate the confusion. This whole Service Charge goes directly to the worker.

[CoombellKid]

A little understanding on how things work over there might help.
Waiterpersons pay tax on the tips they get. The government can never
know just how much the waiterperson gets through tips. So the total
take in the til is divided by the waiter staff and they pay tax
accordingly. So if you fail tip tip on you $30.00 meal the waiter person
will still be abliged to pay tax on a tip they never got. I'd get pissed to
because you might as well have taken the money out of there pockets.

It always annoys me when you hear waiter staff here whinge about not
getting tip. They can start whinging when they start getting taxed on it.

Cheers,CS

[CoombellKid]

Not only that, but have seen how much they stack on the plate in some
resturants in the US. You will see why they have an obesity problem. I
guess because the boss pays naf all they can load your plate up.

Cheers,CS

[Allan_L]

Chris, We all get what you are saying!

However, dare I say you miss a point?

The one benefit I see for the shop owner, and the rip off of the worker as compared to the Aussie is this:

What if no customers come in that day?

The tip which makes up the "guaranteed" portion you talk of is not forthcoming I presume.
Where as in australia, the waiter gets paid when working even if no customers are served today.

I can see good and bad in both systems.

Unfortunately, it appears to me that most respondents to this thread fail to see the issue from any other point of view other than their own.
(see my signature).

As A post script, and I am surprised no one has done sufficient research to make this point, (to get back on topic):
The general consensus was that the police officer was acting outside the law (ignorantly) and that the charges would not stand up in a court of law. seems gratuity still means gratuity after all.

[Omaroo]

That's easy Allan - on the days that they are busy, they usually (and typically) earn more in "extra" tips" to compensate. This is the way it works. I saw this first-hand when my ex-wife was working in the restaurants over there when I was on assignment. Some days she'd earn the basic minimum, and on other days we were rolling in it. If a festival was on or it was around the holiday times, hospitality workers were all earning small fortunes for themselves - something that would otherwise just go to the owner here. So - again, each system has it's advantages under specific circumstances. It's very difficult to say which is better other than the way either of the two may have treated you personally.

Don't get me wrong - I think that it's be easier home accounting to be paid the way we are here.

[avandonk]

We had a problem as our work charge cards did not allow for tips. So we would pay the bill with the charge card and then collect the tip for waiter/waitress in cash.

One very good waitress was very p'd off untill we explained to her what the deal was. This was on the north side in Chicago.

When in Rome do as the Romans do!

Bert

[renormalised]

I know what you're trying to say and I can see the way the system works...the worker get's $20/hr, guaranteed, but his/her pay is a combo of what the employer pays + the "tip". Like you said, the "tip" is in fact a service charge and should be named as such. It's much like a GST, only not really a tax.

However...



What that says is this....you may get $20/hr, but the employer only pays for the wage directly of that amount minus the value of the tip. So, in effect, the customer is subsiding the workers wages. If $20/hr is the minimum going rate, for instance, and say the workers average $20 in tips per working shift, that means in a 10 hour day the employer only has to pay $18/hr, which is below the minimum wage rate, in order to satisfy the workers pay. The employer effectively pays the wage earners their wages but circumvents the minimum wage requirements. That's what I call cheating. If they did that here in any industry other than hospitality (they get away with blue murder with working hours etc out here), they'd be lynched. Their business would head south faster than an F18 in afterburner!!!!. The unions would have a field day!!!. Those tips would be seen as being bonuses, not base pay. Even the hospitality workers out here wouldn't put up with that. Those out here wanting tips want the tips to be paid over and above their normal set wages, not as a part thereof. Try paying them below the award and then bring their pay up to the award level with tip and see what happens. If they don't get enough tips to cover the wages, what happens then. It means the employer, by law, must make up the shortfall in accordance with the wages agreement they must sign as part of their contract with their employees. If they don't, and I hope they do the same in the US, the ATO/IRS would/ought to rake them over boiling lava and then throw the book at them.

That is one of the reasons why tipping here was frowned upon then abolished completely. Apart from being an objectionable way of making pay for employees, it's open to all sorts of abuses...on both sides.

[renormalised]

Eat mice and sheep's eyeballs, go to gladiatorial contests, feed dissenters to the wild animals, conquer helpless natives and rob other nations blind....sounds like a great idea!!!:P:P:D:D

[kinetic]

Well that was an entertaining half an hour read :)
Well done Chris for persevering through that all and keeping sane mate!

Here's a concept....wouldn't it be a funny situation if
the people here in IIS were rewarded by making nice posts.
With being nice to people in general :)
And everyone got a minimum 'wage' of allowed posts per week :)
That way, to supplement their number of allowed posts per week,
they could make even more nice posts. :)

It would quieten down the noise a bit though!:D

Steve

[Enchilada]

Sorry. I find this equally offensive.

Critics may be one thing, but apologists are just as wrong.

Freedom of speech, although not legislated, is supposed to be one of the tenets of the American democracy.

[avandonk]

Remember all roads lead to Rome!

Bert

[Enchilada]

My apologies here.

I seems I am not allowed to respond to this thread. Sorry.

[Omaroo]

Cheers Steve - LOL!! :thumbsup:

Here is my last post on this thread, as fun as it was. It shows that there IS a minimum wage requirement in nearly all states of the Union. Some of the southern states are a bit behind the times, but their cost of living is equally undemanding.

This will give you the gist. Low numbers - but fixed, standardised minimum wages exist - under-which an employer cannot go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._minimum_wages

[renormalised]

Where's the trench coat and dark glasses:P:P:D:D

Oh, and the micro miniature super telephoto camera, with macro lens and microchip digital satellite uplink:P:P:D:D

[avandonk]

If you don't come out Brutus we will throw in a spear with an union on it!

Bert

[Omaroo]

Queue the Get Smart theme..... :lol:

[Zaps]

I feel bad for foreigners traveling to the USA nowadays. The incredibly insane "security" process makes life bad enough for Americans, but when I see what non-Americans have to go through at our airports I wonder why they even visit the States.

The good news is that many American tourism businesses are waking up to the fact that it's been a total disaster for them. American authorities used the bogus terrorist threat as a way to tighten their grasp on Citizens. The USA is a great place but it has some kinks still to be ironed out, some of them pretty bad ones.

As sad as I am to leave my old home behind me, Aussies and Kiwis are now my countrymen and I consider myself honored and privileged. ;)

[telecasterguru]

What about fast food restaurants in the US. What do the staff in those get paid?

[renormalised]

Unless I go for a professional position, remind me never to look for work over there. Those minimum wages are pathetic...no wonder so many people try and get 2 or more jobs. Federal award...$58 for an 8 hour day. I know kids at fast food joints that get better pay than that!!!. Work in a restaurant out here and it's an even worse comparison.

[avandonk]

All jokes aside this is a situation for ordinary workers all of you would have to face under JWH's workchoices.

Welcome to the USA, The land of the free to live in abject poverty even if you work at two jobs.

Bert

[renormalised]

Watch your nose on that last door...it's a killer!!!:P:P:D:D

[renormalised]

Send the "unions", I love "unions!!!":eyepop::P:D (unions = onions)

[renormalised]

Take Rhode Island, for example. Minimum wage there is $7.40/hr but if you work somewhere that tips (like a fast food joint) you get....drum roll....$2.89/hr:eyepop:

[avandonk]

Brutal unthinking corporations do not like unions entering their fiefdoms!

Bert

[TrevorW]

Watch Top Gear tonight

[Enchilada]

I agree. Great fun, especially the segments in the deep South. :thumbsup:

[renormalised]

No, it upsets the gravy train:D

It's a small pot and they want it all to themselves:D

[FredSnerd]

Yeah but Carl at the end of the financial year they all get a $5 million bonus just for turning up to work all year right.

[renormalised]

Which job's that....can I apply for it last week??:P:P:D:D

[renormalised]

Glad to call you an Ozmeister man:P:P:D:D

[FredSnerd]

Oh sorry no. My Bad! The annual $5million bonus only applies to executive personnel who lost the company a squillion last year or contributed to bringing about the financial crises. Because if we didnt pay them a annual $5million bonus how else could we attract such talent. No I'm affraid you're gonna have to content yourself with $2.89 an hour. But dont worry just keep calling people sir and beg for tips and you might end up with a minimum wage.

[multiweb]

:eyepop: You're back! You said it was your last post. Your like KISS last gig ever in Australia. They say that then come back the following year for another last one! :lol:

[matt]

I tried to warn him many posts back....but would he listen?

Now look. The eye's starting to twitch....the veins are starting pop out at the side of his head:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Get out......get out while you can. Run you fool!!!!!!!

[Omaroo]

LOL! It's amazing that when a debate is lost for some, it must degenerate into boyish retorts.

I never, ever stated that the US is a model environment. Pay rates are bloody awful in many cases! This just wasn't the subject of the thread so why make it so? :confused2:

Matt - the poofer valve is busted already - staying away is now a moot point. I'm in for the long haul. I guess that it's known here now - when I promise to put the effort in to something, I will. :)

[renormalised]

Let's hope he doesn't dress like them!!!!:eyepop::P:P:D:D

[multiweb]

Just having fun reading :lol:

[iceman]

This is not America, I make no claims about Freedom of Speech here.

This is IceInSpace. Not a place for political discussions or anti-any country discussions.

[renormalised]

I've got some sealant if you need some:P:P:D:D

New valves can be a bit expensive:P:D

[Omaroo]

Too late...

[Gallifreyboy]

wow, the moderators are quicker than quick draw mcgraw in this thread
:lol::lol::lol:
and rightly so in my opinion for most of it

[Omaroo]

They're certainly on the ball Peter. :thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

:rofl:
Looking good Chris.

[dpastern]

Mike - with all due respect why was this thread even allowed then, since anyone with common sense was going to realise that it would attract comments about tipping and US lifestyle(s)?

A bit of the pot calling the kettle black imho. It's OK to praise US tipping styles, but not to criticise it. If you were fairly censoring things, you'd be removing all of the pro tipping posts as well.

Gee...I can see why Mike Sidonio made his comment earlier on in the thread about post nazis...all I see here is favouritism to certain individuals allowing them to wax rhetorically about the beauty of the American wages system.

I mean, we're in Australia, should we even be talking about US wages?

Dave

[dpastern]

OH and I wonder what will happen when (and it will happen) freedom of speech gets legislated here...online forums will be in for interesting times methinks.

Dave

[renormalised]

:P:P:P:D:D:D:D

Good one:D:D:D

[GrahamL]

I had some thoughts on how this might pan out , but will happily lift the words of another.



Despite how we all feel bout wages in other countries this one reeks of stupidity on a few levels , the front of house manager really had a good chance to deal with this civily , the cops had a equal chance to use a little disscretion on what was in front of them , maybe these people were charged with other offenses ?.. but if like above it does get thrown out , wrongfull imprisonment? .. A lawyer with a sense of humor would possibly take that $16.48 and file for 16.48 million damages

[iceman]

C'mon Dave - it's one thing to discuss the US tipping system and another to criticise the whole country, it's values, it's politics etc. Which is exactly what the posts that were deleted were doing.


Quite right - and we're on an astronomy forum. Why are we even talking about the US tipping system?

[Enchilada]

Honestly, I'm very confused here.

If I say that Australia is better than America, and justify it, then according to you this is either political or being "anti-country" ??
I carefully re-read the terms of service here, and I see no reference to "anti-any country" ideas there.
Whilst I agree there may be ways of saying things, I don't necessarily think that opinions about other foreign countries is so wrong. I.e. There was a debate on the Metric System ages ago, and that debate about Americans resisting the change was perfectly A-OK.
Perhaps the question here is what the majority deems acceptable. In my view, and among the number of acquaintances in the local club, people I know, or have associated with, my views and others on this subject are quite commonplace and really are heartfelt.
Whilst you may have your legitimate reasons to appease to our American counterparts here, it does IMO seem a little harsh to quell general discussion. :question:

Note: Frankly, I find "The Rules" from blog site to blog site after awhile is just so confusing, and I have real trouble just remembering what comment is deemed acceptable and what is not. These days I spend more time trying to understanding the rules than I do in answering the question.

[iceman]

You've got to be kidding me. There's lots of things I discuss with friends and colleagues in person that I wouldn't talk about in front of others, or post on public internet forums.

I'm sorry that not everything is black and white for you in this world. There are often many shades of grey.

[OzRob]

The problem is that on internet forums rules are often more like guidelines. It can be a very fine line between allowing people a free rein and keeping the place civil. I'm a mod on a quite large (unrelated) forum (much larger than this one) and at times it is not much fun. It would be great if every forum member could be a mod at least once. You'd be surpriised how much of a hard and thankless job it can be.

BTW it is nice just to be able to sit back and have a laugh.

[iceman]

This thread has gone way off track and has gone far enough as it is.

Unfortunately a handful of people derail a potentially harmless thread with their own very strong opinions that they have some desire to tell everyone about.

Post your comments in the news article itself, along with the other 2000+ comments:
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local-beat/Time-In-Prison--70426052.html?yhp=1