More pollution in China

[casstony]

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/

This is an on-going story and I'm not sure what ordinary citizerns can do about it, but it should discourage purchase of goods from mainland China.

GSO is Taiwan based - is Synta?

[multiweb]

This is very distressing indeed but there's not much we can do about it. Anyone will still be looking for the cheapest deal. The main change needs to come from China and the way they handle things. Greed, corruption and exploitation. It doesn't have to be this way. But you can't expect supply & demand to do anything to make this situation better.

[Ric]

It's tragic to see that happening unchecked and nobody cares. Meanwhile our mob argue over a couple of percent in emission targets.

[casstony]

Maybe we can buy an alternative to a mainland China product when it doesn't cost much more. For example, I was thinking of ordering one of those North Optics ED80 triplets but I'll stick with my Synta ED80. (I checked and Synta is Taiwan based).

[FredSnerd]

What are you on about Mark. Everything helps. Campaigns to stop purchasing from rouge companies and countries have forced changes in the past. You might want to reconsider your remark that "you can't expect supply & demand to do anything" Nothing at all? Are you sure about that? Because of course by encouraging us to do nothing alot of people will continue to be hurt. I'm sorry but I dont buy it when you say "This is very distressing indeed" and then continue with "but there's not much we can do about it" and"you can't expect supply & demand to do anything". Its just difficult to escape the conslusion that preserving the free market is a much higher ideal in your book then people.

[slippo74]

That is so sad but nothing can be really done. The big contradiction is that cheap stuff can be cheaper than ever without poisoning people and lands. Green energy and free-toxic materials can cut costs in production with no impact to quality and environment.
The real problem here is the huge economical interest from those providing primary resources to China industry ... and I'm sure they are not Chinese.

[multiweb]

:lol: You don't need any encouragement, you need a brain scan and a reality check. :thumbsup: Take a deep breath... in .... out... in....

[Louwai]

My first comment would be that this web site is designed to do exactly what has happened here - create a reaction.
These pictures are true enough, but how old are they???
Is the text explaining each photo correct??
Is the noted date correct??


Personally I'd have concerns about Photo 11, showing "sewage" supposedly spewing into the yangtse River. It notes the pipe was extended 1500m. I know for a fact that ChangShu is several klm to the south of the Yangtse.
If you look at water in a creek that is lined with Tea trees, it is the exact same colour as what's coming out of that pipe, due to discolouration from the tree sap. But it's not polluted. I agree that this scenario is not what's happening here, but it is an alternative reason to water discolouration.


Photo 15 says Haimen CITY. Haimen was just down the rd from my place when I lived in China. I can tell you that it's lucky to be a country town, let alone a CITY.
It is called a city on this web site, I expect, to create a "larger" mental image of the issue in the mind of the reader.

I'd have reservations about the accuracy of some of the comments made.

Also,
The biggest problem in China is not Greed, Corruption or Exploitation. It's worker education. If the workers were educated about WH&S or Environmental issues they would do something about it.

The wages are horrendously low when compared to ours, BUT, so is the cost of living. Last August I was in Shanghai (an expensive city), I took 6 friends to a reasonably expensive restaurant. We ate & drank considerable amounts. The total bill was equivilent to AU$65. So when "do gooders" scream about exploited workers, maybe they should compare the income to the cost of living, not campare the income to Australian incomes.

Same for corruption. It is rife within China, BUT, most people have absolutely no idea that the actions they are taking are considered 'Corruption".
China society operates on "Guanxi" (connections). If you want something done you contact a 'friend' in the business. In many countries this system is considered Corruption, but in China its common everyday buisness.
The only thing that will change that is education.


Talk of boycotting Chinese procucts in general I think is not the solution. If you feel a boycott is called for, then I suggest that investigation is done into a specific company that is perceived as doing the wrong thing & boycott that specific companyif the investigation calls for it.


I'm not saying that the issues noted on this web site don't happen. I just think that they are being sensationalised to create a reaction within groups of people who can only rely on supplied information rather than first hand knowledge.

[multiweb]

Interesting comments Bryan. Thanks for sharing your first hand experience having been there. Education is freedom but unfortunately not every government is willing to educate the masses. Harder to control. When you say wages are low but so is the cost of living does this mean the average chinese has the same buying power as the average australian? I don't feel exploited here if I can't afford white goods or luxury items but I certainly would feel the pinch if I worked long hours and didn't make enough to bring the basics at home such food on the table for the family and kids.

[blueskies123_89]

I agree with Bryan that boycotting is not a solution, it never is. It seems to me that the most basic cause for poverty is the lack of money, and boycotting will simply make that worse.

One has to remember that China is still a developing country, and hence should be judged as one. The progress made since the 90s to reach the living standards it has now, over a period of 20 years, is amazing.

Photos are selective and can be misleading, just as we are all aware from astronomical image processing. No one denies that these photos depict serious issues, but you cannot convert poverty into wealth in one day.

[casstony]

Since China is run from the top down I think a general boycott is a reasonable course of action. It's also the only course of action that has a chance of being effective at a grassroots level, since Australians are simply not going to investigate individual companies before purchasing a product.

While it's always good to be sceptical, do you think these photo's are more likely to represent the true situation or more likely to be completely misrepresentative? It's so easy to be a slob and justify doing nothing.

[multiweb]

The truth is China is huge. The global market is massive. Its business and manufacturing is with the US, Asia and Europe. If Australia sunk into the sea they wouldn't even notice it. Most of them wouldn't even place Australia on the map anyway. Downunder we have the tendency to think we can influence the world market or the climate :lol: Don't get me wrong, there's a bunch of lovely people living here but you guys don't seem to see the whole picture in term of $. We're insignificant. You can boycott x100 all you want, it wouldn't make any difference in their cashbook. ;)

[Louwai]

Mark,
I understand where you're coming from, but I feel you are still comparing with our society.
The general Chinese society thinks differently to us.
Close to where I lived was a small steel fabricator. One day a sheet of steel was delivered to the workshop. This steel was a std sheet of 6m x 2.4m & was 6mm thick I think. A considerable amount of weight.
To get this steel inside, approx 35 men arrived, they all lined up down each side, picked it up & carried it inside.
The owner had a forklift sitting at the side, but rather than having to spend money on the fuel, he just called a bunch of friends & they did it for nothing.
The steel worker would then 'owe' his friends a favour & he has saved money buy not using fuel.
This is an example of using "Guanxi" (Conections or friends)

Without knowing the background of this situation, some may feel that the steel worker was exploiting the others, but infact it was a form of Barter Card type system.

[Louwai]

I agree Mark,
I have been in the office of manufacturers in China.
As soon as they hear I'm from Australia they are not interested.

their comment -
"Australia has a small population, not a big enough market. We are not interested in your business".

[multiweb]

This is funny. I was told exactly the same thing about a leather manufacturing/sewing company that relocated its operation in China couple of years ago. They were trying to sell them those tables with micro holes and pressurised air (like the game where you push a plastic disk and score, same system). When you pile up 100s of layers of leather sheets it can weigh tones, so they use those "air tables" to slide the weight around. The chinese owner turned around and said he didn't need them. When asked why he said we'll just get more workers to shift the load around. :lol:

So this barter system is deeply engrained into their culture. God knows what else. It's going to take a lot of education and a couple of generations to see procedures put in places at all level. Pollution and environmental concerns are probably right at the bottom of their list if any. :shrug:

[casstony]

I wrote the above with respect to 'Think global, act local'. Obviously Australia is an economic minnow and action would be required in other countries to have any effect. The fact that a given individual or population has a miniscule impact is not an excuse to do nothing.

We're naturally apathetic creatures (me included) and exceptionally skilled at justifying our inaction.

[citivolus]

China is not alone in its responsibility for environmental issues. As an example, many countries have mandated ROHS style requirements for white goods, while in Australia lead based solders still dominate & we freely import all kinds of chemical crap. In Canada back in the late 90's, I lived a few kilometres from the largest polluting factory in Canada. It was a steel mill on the shore of Lake Ontario. Where do you think its waste discharged? You got it. Into the air and water.

[FredSnerd]

This is a very narrow way of looking at the issue. What is clear from the last few years is that China is hell bent on becoming a member of the world club. To do that she needs to be seen as a country that cares about human rights, the environment etc. Not because it may impact on her markets in Australia but because it may impact on her markets (and political prestige) in the US and Europe etc. So notwithstanding that we may be in little Australia our voice together with the voice of the rest of the world will have an impact that the Chinese will respond to.

[citivolus]

It should also be brought up, where are these Chinese factories getting the raw goods which they are refining, and from which the pollutants are emanating? Hmm. Australia does have some leverage in that regard.

[fringe_dweller]

oh contrare! as citivolous and others alludes too, i know you are referring to trade, but I think they would miss our resources something shocking! ermm large chunk of worlds easily recoverable yellowcake for starters! they've been trying to buy them up at alarming rate :poke:

[renormalised]

Problem with that, Bryan, is that although Australia may have a small population, we're the world's 13-14th largest economy. We are not minnows, not by a long way and if we were to get narky about it, we could cause quite a few countries any amount of hurt. China would be in the proverbial outhouse if we decided not to trade with them. There are plenty of ready markets for our raw materials. We'd just go elsewhere. You may find that they say what they said to your face, but behind the scenes, they'd be interested. Money's money and if they can make a quick buck they'll sell anywhere they need to. Small market or not. If we weren't a big enough market to sell to, then we'd have hardly anything coming to this country.

[solissydney]

Why pick on China. Let us clean up our own backyard first.
Australia emits 20 Tonnes of pollution per capita. China 5 Tonnes.
Ken

[TrevorW]

Ken wheres your math

thats Aust 400 million tonnes
China 5000 billion tonnes

no comparison

China is unregulated pollution is rampant nearly 50 % of the worlds manufactured goods come our of China

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200208/18/eng20020818_101663.shtml

[TrevorW]

and will only get worse as the population of china becomes more affluent (not effluent)

[fringe_dweller]

I know it could easily be a co-incidence, and a bit kooky to say the least, long bow ect. but a massive co-incidence, but I cant help find it interesting how as China's economic growth/industrialisation/urbanisation ramped up in last 10-15 years - we simultaneously have the mother of all droughts/kooky weather, a matching graph overlaid over that period would be interesting

i'm not agin or for either, i am all for china doing its thing, its like polly wants a cracker.... NOW! as if it matters what i think ahahah

[renormalised]

Not only that, but out of 1.3 billion people, 750-800 million still live in rural areas, so if China had the same % living in urban areas as we do, how much more pollution would it put out. It'd be an unmitigated disaster....it's bad enough already.

[renormalised]

They make a lot of those:P:P:D:D

[fringe_dweller]

hehe :lol:

[Paul Haese]

No doubt China has its pollution problems just as we do. 25 years ago the Hawskbury was toxic. We still have problems with pollution, so waving the red flag at another country is not fair when we are not squeeky clean. The Chinese are working hard to get it right every where but with 1.1 billion people lots of things slip through the cracks. Give them 20 years and they will have it sorted. I find it humorous how the west often expects developing nations to conform immediately when we have had over 100 years to come up to standard. I will not be boycotting Chinese products, I think they need a fair go to be honest and that is what Aussies are supposedly known for. Perhaps not anymore.

Incidently Synta is Chinese not Taiwanese. When in China this year I went to the Skywatcher - Synta factory in Suzhou.

[TrevorW]

Paul unfortunately it probably ain't going to happen not in a 100 years

and I don't think anyone was advocating boycotting Chinese products

because where else would we get them

[casstony]

Paul, you obviously did not look at the images and read the text. There are magnitudes of difference between pollution in Australia and the pollution levels presented in that link. Your post adds insult to the injury the people are experiencing in those images.

[Paul Haese]

Actually I did look at the images and read the text. You are assuming too much. From an evidentary point of view the images could have been taken at anytime in the last 10-15 years, nor is it this wide spread in China. We went through rural sections and built up cities and while some mayhem is present I did not see anything on this level and that was through 5 major cities.

Yes proportionally China would have greater pollution but by standing where you are and pointing the finger when you have the benefit of living in a society which has radically changed its policy to the environment is in my opinion a bit stiff. Technology transfers don't happen to expect developing nations to catch up quickly. Marralinga is still not totally clean in our country and that has been terribily irradiated. This is just one of numerous examples of polluted land on our continent.

[stephenb]

The price on mass consumerism?

[renormalised]

You can't say that those pics may or may not have been taken in the last 10-15 years as you have no evidence at all to prove that. If those photos state they were taken when they were, then until you could prove otherwise, that's when they were taken. Which means this sort of environmental degradation is ongoing, and even if they were taken then, it most likely still is. Just because you never saw anything like that doesn't mean it's not occurring, or that it's not widespread. Just means you never saw it, or weren't allowed to.

Yes, we do have our own problems, but nowhere near that scale of pollution. I can tell you now that Maralinga compared to Lop Nor in NW China is spotless. It may have parts which are still quite irradiated and not all that safe to enter on a permanent basis, but areas within the Lop Nor area are so irradiated even the guys testing nukes there can't go into them, for any length of time.

Just because we have our own problems, doesn't mean when we see problems like this, that we can't then point out just how bad the situation there might be, or to say something to the Chinese about it. That maybe pointing the finger but we have every right to do so...at least we're making attempts to do something and have changed our policies. If that sort of thing is occurring in China (or any other country) then all we're getting from them on this matter (and it will eventually affect us all) is a mouthing of platitudes and very little action being taken at all to remedy it. Or what action is being taken is ineffectual because of the endemic corruption in their political system and industrial practices. Having little or no environmental protection laws and the above systemic problems compounding the matter doesn't help.

[TrevorW]

If you are not aware a lot of this information is suppressed by the Chinese Govt and the general populace is ignorant as to the extent of the damage being caused.

Nearly every man in China smokes prolifically the majority ignorant to the damage being caused too their health.

Also remember that Chinese internet is monitored the people can't even access such sites as Wikepedia and are denied a lot of information.

A country with human rights issues, 50 million unemployed etc etc

I'm not saying we are perfect but we retain the right too vote out a Govt that takes the needs of the few over the needs of the many

[Louwai]

Carl,
I lived in China for just over 2yrs. In addition to that, I lived in the area that some of these phtos were supposedly taken (according to the text). I can honestly say that I also did not see anything like what is depicted in them.
Not saying it doesn't or didn't happen. but in 2yrs I didn't see any major poluting acts as shown here.

And as has been pointed out, the people are kept very much in the dark in general. The internet is censored a great deal + in schools & universities, the students are given access to Chinese internet content ONLY. They are not permitted to have access to international internet.