Boat Refugees

[strongmanmike]

Why are some narrow minded, self rightious and xenophobic people worried about a tiny number of desperate people seeking some security in Australia? I'm flabagasted really....?

96% of asylum seekers in Australia come via our airports, so why is this scare mungering so successful for the the Liberal/National party in the polls?

Mike

[Octane]

Don't you know, they're all terrorists?*

Regards,
Humayun

* denotes sarcasm

[TrevorW]

Supposition here

The one's who come via the airports are processed in accordance with immigration guidelines and undergo stringent security screening etc

Boat people, no control a lot don't even have papers.

Maybe it's national security issue remember they may not all be sheep in sheep's clothing

[supernova1965]

It can be hard to put ourselves into other people's situations and really see the situation as it is. So it is easy to have an inaccurate view of situations through no fault of their own we have it so good in our country that it is understandable that some won't fully understand someones situation unless you have lived it. I truly believe what I say in my signature about there being good in everyone.

[strongmanmike]

National Security..? :rofl:

Man that says a lot!

Can anyone name a mass murderer in Australia (or the US for that mater) that came on a leaky boat, lets see?...Martin Bryant..?...maybe, Ivan Malat...or perhaps former Australian Army officer-cadet, 19-year-old Julian Knight? I am ashamed :screwy:

Red neck ignorant dumb Aussies need to do some research man and stop the prejudice

Mike

[tlgerdes]

I am all for refugees coming through the right channels.

Every boat arrival means X many less refugees who have waited correctly in camps across the world for a new chance at hope.

Why reward the queue jumpers, because they had a few hundred/thousand dollars they could pay to a smuggler.:shrug:

[dpastern]

Mike - I guess there are 2 sides to every coin. Many legitimate refugees who come in via the appropriate channels rightly feel cheated that they've done the right thing and then watch the boat people come in and break all the rules and get away with it. It does make a mockery of the situation I think.

There could be potential security related issues too - very unlikely I might add as you well and truly realise, but it is a possibility.

That said, I always felt that John Howard was a racist and to be honest, that many Australians are racist. I watch many Australians give foreigners dirty looks and it isn't nice or pretty. Coming from a NESB, I view things a different way I guess.

Dave

[DavidU]

Two of my best mates were early boat people from Vietnam and are awesome Aussies.
However what concerns me is the poor buggers drowning on a shoddy boat while a smuggler is making money from it.

[strongmanmike]

Sadly this is absolute bunkum mate, 96% or asylum seekers came via airports last year, why?..because they could, they stayed here a while first and before their visas ran out they applied for asylum and were given extesnions to their visas while they waited for processing,

The people coming on boats are desperate mate, let'em in I say, all of'em, we are compasionate reasonable people (most of us anyway) don't let the ignorant ill-informed rule us!

Mike

[supernova1965]

I really thought that a group that looks out to the stars and knows what the earth really is compared to the rest of the Universe would be more accepting of the other people on this small chunk of rock and accept that we are all on spaceship earth together.

Message from the astronauts on ISS.

There are three astronauts aboard the International Space Station right now: Russian station commander Gennady Padalka and flight engineers Michael Barratt of NASA and Koichi Wakata of Japan. Their Expedition 19 mission began in late March.
While his nearly seven-month mission is just beginning, Barratt said the impact of seeing his native planet far below has already had an impact.
"There's no doubt, when you look down at the Earth from here, you're just overwhelmed by how beautiful it is," Barratt said this week, adding that two things immediately jump out. "One is how much you miss it, and two, is how much you really want to take care of it as best you can."
Magnus said that when a person gazes at the Earth, there is a sense that humanity and all life as we know it are completely dependent on a single planet and its thin atmosphere.
"It makes you think about our planet as a whole system," Magnus said. "We're all there together living together as human beings and other organisms and we have to take care of each other."

[Ian Robinson]

It's that long standing fear of the imaginary yellow / asian hords invading and taking over , is scaremungering and propogation of paranoia and claims about some terrorists sneeking in.

And it's politically expediant to kick up a fuss about a few hundred refugees in leaky boats when you've nothing else to offer.

It Is fueled by racism.

[TrevorW]

Albiet, Mike and as stated I was only supposing it to be a national security issue and fortunately it hasn't happened in this country as of yet but it only takes 1 dedicated terrorist to kill hundreds.

Also as pointed out why should these people take precedence over all those who go through the proper channels.

If I'm not mistaken some of these people are paying up to $20k to get on one of these boats, it surprises me that these refugees can even afford that.

Personally I have no qualms with sharing my country with every tom, dick and ..... who wishes to come here and is allowed too do so through the right channels.

Also lets not forget how many other countries would just turn them around and send them home.

[strongmanmike]

[QUOTE=TrevorW;518352]Albiet, Mike and as stated I was only supposing it to be a national security issue and fortunately it hasn't happened in this country as of yet but it only takes 1 dedicated terrorist to kill hundreds.

as I said BUNKUM!

Sorry mate but this is complete zenaphobia here I am affraid, like many other, well meaning people who are just working on perception rather than the facts.

People coming in leaking boats are not wealthy que jumpers, give me a break, if they were they would just buy a friggin air ticket :screwy:

Is this so hard to comprehend :shrug:

Mike

[Ian Robinson]

I concur with your assessment (is that clearer now).

[Jules76]

It's funny, racism often involves people stereotyping a particular race or culture based on a minority of "bad eggs". And the irony here is that your basing your feelings that many Australians are racist based on a minority you see in day to day life. Put it this way, I think your focusing too much on a select few because your sensitive to this kind of reaction, and missing the many who walk on by seeing just another human being regardless of race/culture.

Sorry, but I just take offence to the notion that many Australians are racist. That's just simply not true.

[strongmanmike]

Ok, so you are saying a person who arives on a plane here for essentially a holiday, who then subsequently recieves an extension to their visa while their claim of asylaum is processed, should feel cheated compared to some poor destitute people in a crappy leaking boat who are iontercepted by a navy ship and are transported to Christmas Islan for 9 to 18 months or more of processing????, sorry but alas that is just another indication of ignorance and lack of understanding of the real issues I am affraid :shrug:

Mike

[TrevorW]

Here are the numbers.

There were 86 boat arrivals in 1999, 51 in 2000, and another 43 in 2001.
The Howard Government changed the law and boats slowed to a trickle.

2002 – 1 boat – 1 person
2003 – 1 boat – 53 people
2004 – 1 boat – 15 people
2005 – 4 boats – 11 people
2006 – 6 boats – 60 people
2007 – 5 boats – 148 people
2008 – 7 boats – 161 people

I agree Mike miniscule numbers compared to the numbers coming through legal channels so why all the ado about nothing make you wonder doesn't it

Settler arrival figures

Settler Arrival Numbers vs Net Permanent migration 1998-1999 84100, 49 000 1999-2000 92300, 51200 2000-2001 107400, 60800 2001-2002 88 900 40700 2002-2003 93900 43500 2003-2004 111600 52500 2004-2005 123 400 60800 2005-2006 131600, 63700 2006-2007 140100, 68000 2007-2008 149 400 72 400 2008-2009 158 021 77 000 Source: overseas arrivals and departures
Settler arrivals by region of birth between July 2008 and June 2009

Arrivals % Variation Oceania and Antarctica 30 010 -5.3% Europe 29 294 -4.6% North Africa and the Middle East 11 143 34.3% South East Asia 21 008 -0.9% North East Asia 20 977 16.5% Southern Asia 25 900 17.2% Central Asia 1 731 -3.8% Northern America 2 254 2.5% South and Central America & the Caribbean 1 979 -5.8% Sub-Saharan Africa 13 025 22.9% Supplementary Country Codes 671 11.8% Not Stated/Not Elsewhere Included 29 -71.0% Grand Total 158 021 5.8%

[Hagar]

I don't know about the rest of you but should I and my family be in a similar situation as the people on these boats I think I would make the same desparate attempts to get my family out of harms way. I thought we had assimilation/ investigation camps on an Island up the top somewhere. It would have to be better to move them to an area such as this and carry out some investigation on their backgrounds than have them stuck on a boat so desparate they are ready to die before going home.
We all tend to forget how bad things can really be. To us all home is a very safe place, they look at home as something quite diferent. Very very sad.

[Ian Robinson]

OK , I wasn't clear enough. I'll add a few words to it.

[strongmanmike]

Ooooh yes, better get our guns out and kill all these asian hoards :eyepop: "please explain?"

:rofl:

[dpastern]

Mike - I have no problems with sharing with others, from other nationalities. I'm very multi cultural. I quite often give a hearty smile to those from other cultures, they look a bit taken back at first but then return the smile. If I was wealthier, I'd certainly be travelling to lots of countries and seeing lots of things.

In the end, we're all people. Sadly, it seems that it's inbuilt into man's genetics to be racist and to suffer xenophobia (fear of foreignors). Sad, but true.

Dave

[dpastern]

I simply report what I see. Comments like "why can't they talk in English when they're out in public" - that's racist. It's a very common reaction from what I see. I sometimes deliberately talk to my father in German, because I can, and because I want a private conversation. And if someone were to pull me up on the streets about it, I'd tell them to and mind their own business as well. I'm a very upfront and blunt person (mostly). People don't seem to like my brusque manner, or the fact that I'm unafraid to voice my opinion on things as *I* see them. I call their attempts to silence my opinions social bullying. And if there's one thing that I HATE - it's a bully. I was very very badly bullied throughout my entire schooling, and it's one thing that I refuse to accept now.

Dave

[supernova1965]

Sometimes I wish that the land area of Earth had never drifted apart if it had not we may have learned to get along by now.:question:

[DavidU]

In the end we all have one address.
Earth.
Quite simple isn't it.

[mswhin63]

How many tax payers dollars does it cost to process these people compared to people that arrive legit.

[strongmanmike]

I wish all Australians thouht like you Doug, realistic, compassionate and understanding.

On ya fellow big guy :)

[strongmanmike]

Easily covered by our silly smokers I'd imagine...a small price to pay ;)

[taminga16]

Australia is a victim of it's own isolation. We only know that which we are told.

Greg.

[marki]

Mike I agree with you 100%. Without getting into issues of racism or xenophobia these people need our help and we need to be a little more compasionate about the way we do things. Over the years I have had a number of Sudanese students both males and females. Two of them really opened my eyes to the plight of children in these countries. The boy watched his father executed by soldiers when he was 5 years old. He was forced to bare arms and fight from that age until he escaped at 12 years old. The female was taken away from her family and raped at age 9. These kids have horrible scars all over their torso's, legs and arms where they were repeatedly beaten and abused. The best thing is that they are so happy, happy to be here safe from persecution, violence, hatred and torture. Their great big smiles and wonderful nature makes my day and help me believe in the strength of the human spirit no matter what hardships are endured. Open the gates and let them in. Other countries are doing far more then us, look at Germany.

Mark

[mswhin63]

Flooding immigration may not be the answer, it creates tension as did English immigrating here to Australia, look how long it has taken to try and repair the rift (still ongoning).

My grandmother passed away couple of weeks ago and she has never forgiven the Japanese because my grandfather was killed in Borneo.

It takes a long ime to prepare people attitudes and needs a really good long time a international stability to create acceptance. Flooding immigrants continues to create tension and unacceptance.

Not that I don't mind immigration just flooding them in is causing tension. Esspecially when illegals get so much media attention. We had a good peaceful transistion for a while when Howard made changes nw Rudd has made the past tension come back again.

[jjjnettie]

I see blatant racism every day at work.
Damn red neck town.

[strongmanmike]

oh dear, yes...stop the plight of poor destitute people from gaining media attention and you are all snugg in your bed huh? tut tut :rolleyes:

[Jules76]

Rudd made the tensions come back? According to the figures TrevorW posted, it's been increasing since 2005.

And it's interesting to note, that the majority of these refugees are coming from Sri Lanka fleeing from the civil war. In Dec 2001, a cease fire was delcared which was signed with international mediation in 2002.

2002 – 1 boat – 1 person (Cease fire)
2003 – 1 boat – 53 people (Cease fire)
2004 – 1 boat – 15 people (Cease fire)
2005 – 4 boats – 11 people (Limited hostilies begin)
2006 – 6 boats – 60 people (Hostilities escalate with offensive July 2006, driving the Tamils out of the Eastern Province)
2007 – 5 boats – 148 people (Continued hostilities - Tamils declare they will resume freedom fight)
2008 – 7 boats – 161 people (Sri Lanka formally withdraw from cease fire, open conflict)

Tamils defeated in 2009, and now we have an influx of refugees.


Interesting.....but no it's the Government's policies. :shrug:

[strongmanmike]

Laughable huh? :screwy:

[PCH]

Well Mike,

I would say that everyone is entitled to their view. And it is just that - a view. An opinion. And yours is just an opinion too. Not right or wrong, - but just your view. And others should be able to have a different opinion to you without being labelled "dumb Aussies".

The mods should close this one straight away imo as there is nothing more likely to gather angry momentum than this topic which is dear to many peoples' hearts one way or another.

Just my 2c :thumbsup:

[Bobbyoutback]

Before they close this thread , I'm very concerned with the boat arrivals , just the tip of the iceberg thats coming !

I must be a Redneck then ? :D
Bobby.

[renormalised]

This fractious thread needs some comedy here...

I'm pretty certain that most of the immigrants coming here (by any means) would have an aversion to "Zena":P:P:D:D

People who are rednecks need medical attention for the rash around their necks:P:D

Seriously, though, I look at it this way. If we don't want refugees to be coming here then we should take measures to nip the problems that cause people to flee their home countries, in the bud. This "hands off" approach of the U.N. is a cop out. These people have the same rights and privileges as we do, as fellow humans. They also have the same responsibilities too. Quite frankly, if a government is causing grievous problems in it's country (like in Zimbabwe at present), go in and remove them. Give the people a chance to then sort their problems out without being terrorised by their own people. Help them out. But don't patronise them.

We need to start acting like one world and not like a bunch of disparate nation states. Otherwise we're on the slippery slope to collapse, and the causes will come on so many levels, let alone political problems.

[dugnsuz]

When the media and commentators immediately post 9/11 stated that 'the world had changed forever' I believe this is what they envisiged through the dust of those collapsing towers - a world where races, the ideologicaly aligned close ranks, stick together in a collective fear of the outsider. Commonsense if allowed to prevail would show the 'outsider ' to be a man or woman wishing to live in a society or climate free of danger or persecution. Instead we put them all in the same boat (no pun meant) - we label them all potential terrorists and by doing so disgrace ourselves. Many talk of the failure of multiculturalism in Australia - surely all can view this failure through the distorted lens of the post 9/11 world. Would there have been a Cronulla without this context? And, I agree too that we as a species are violent in nature regardless of race and ideology...but that's a choice not an inevitability. We gravitate towards it as our default position, but that too must and will change.
But, for now...fear rules the day, allowing those who dish out the fear complete control over those who willingly and enthusiastically gorge on it.

[dpastern]

yeah, but Carl, the real problem with the UN is the veto vote. As soon as one of the permanent council nations doesn't like something, they veto it. No matter what the democratic process voting resulted in. Let's consider Israel's illegal invasion and occupation of Palestinian territory for starters - the US has veto'd that so many times...image if the democratic process actually worked and the UN as a whole did things...it'd be very productive, and would do what the damn organisation was meant to do in the first place. The UN is nothing but a front for what the US government wants. Nothing more and nothing less.

Redistribution of wealth - I'm sorry, but I find it appalling that 99.999% of our global wealth is owned by 0.01% of the population. That's just really appalling. The poor countries end up being power bases for despots like Mugabe - and what did the rest of the world do (other than South Africa)? SFA. I bet if there was oil there...

What about the horrors of Somalia? Ethiopa? I suggest that people check out Tom Stoddart's photography...harrowing to say the least.

http://www.tomstoddart.com/iwitness.html

what have these poor people done to deserve this? Individuals, businesses and governments need to join together as one to stop these atrocities from happening.

Dave

[dpastern]

That ceasefire did nothing...even now, the Sri Lankan government and army are under investigation for war crimes against humanity. Killing tamil who surrended. Killing children. Reminds me of the Vietnam war and occupying US army...

One of the most infamous images to come out of the Vietnam war (a direct result of the US government's ability to accept a communist North Vietnam - a direct result of xenophobia imho):

http://vinpon.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/windowslivewritersomeofthemostpower fulimagesfromaroundthe-1266a000795-windowslivewritersomeofthemos2.jpg


Dave

[dugnsuz]

Harrowing - absolutely.
The world it would seem is totally Dave
Doug

[Ian Robinson]

If the clouds every bugger off , there will be plenty of red necks in NSW and Queensland. .... I'll probably be one of them , now I know the yellowtail are about and I've heard a whisper that there are some jewfish on the bite in the Hunter River , the harbour and off the breakwalls.
Just got to tinker with my livebait pumps , a couple of them refused to blow bubbles this evening when I got them out of my fishing gear cabinet and tested them. They all worked fine when I tested them in August.

New Moon in about a week away .... gotta get my jewie gear in order .

[dugnsuz]

This latest nightmare in the US looks like doing very little for Christian/Muslim relations either (and thus the perpetuation of the problems illuminated by Mike in this thread!).
If David Icke wasn't so 'out there' you'd think he was spot on with "Problem, Reaction, Solution"!!

[Hagar]

You leave my ciggy tax alone. I pay for everything else with that.

[Ian Robinson]

Heard about that this avo on the radio while I was doing my harbour foreshore drive / fishing reccy .... a major , a psychologist , and it just so happens an american of jordanian decent (and presumeably a muslim) , not that his ethnicity or religion has a lot to do with it .... though the story emphasised it none-the-less.

Home grown nutcases are more danger to the USA than any foreign based terror group , same here.

[dugnsuz]

Agreed Ian - looks like sanity has been put on the back burner again!
Maybe next year!?

[Ian Robinson]

Take a look at any forum that permits political threads , I just just visited one at Zetaboards (has to do with startrek , I ditched it ages ago as I didn't like the racist and nasty people there or biased policies of the mods) .... I looked out curiousity to see what the usual resident rednecks and islamophobes (racists) are saying, and they are true to form , it's a terrorist act ..http://s2.zetaboards.com/SisterTrek/topic/5068268/1/... according to them ..:screwy:.. so there you are.

If he was a christian , I bet they wouldn't be calling it a terrorist act.

how on earth is someone flipping out and going on a crazy shooting spree on a monster army base full of active serving soldiers (all of whom have easy access to military weapons) an act of terror ?

[tlgerdes]

OK Mike,

What are we supposed to do?

Let these people risk their lives to come here? I am OK with that.

Let some criminal gang from Indonesia profit from risking someone elses life? I am not in that game.

Tell the starving in Ethiopia or Sudan that that some guy with $2000 dollars took his place in Australia, do you think they would think it is fair.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ this is what we facing for the government, we already have an under class in Australia. Adding more people to this is not doing anyone a favour.

I take it what you want is Mikes Ferry Service from Indonesia to Christmas island, what are you going to charge? What about those that dont make it as far as Indonesia?

I dont have any problem with immigration or refugees, some of my best friends fall into the both categories (wifes familiy included), but because I have a measured approach immigration, I am a redneck Aussie by your accounts.

[Hagar]

I certainly understand your approach Trevor but the reality is that people who are desparate will continue to atempt to get into a safe haven like Australia by whatever means they can. We have to be sensible about these refugees and make some effort to improve their life. When it all boils down the countries they come from have in a lot of cases been plundered by Western ecconomic companies who pass little if anything back to the country.

A little compassion is the least we can provide these people. We pay millions to keep rapists, child molestors and murderers very comfortably in jail but have to keep desparate, probably very decent people on a boat with threats of return to hell.

Easy for us to disregard the poor when we have so much.

[GrahamL]

I couldn't imagine loading my family into an old fishing boat , whos
"crew members " jobs become all to apparant when you hit the open sea, namely to hopefully scoop the water out the bottom quicker than it leaks in . The demonising of these desperate souls for being able to risk it all by paying a crook is as dissgusting as the political circus that once again has taken centre stage.The loss of life last week is the real tragedy , something that seemed to get lost in poll results , and the general media frenzy this issue is creating.


Maybe globally we could all have a good look at ourselves in that
the arms manufacturers of our enlightened nations often play a significant roll in creating this mess by arming both sides of the conflict, money which would be far better spent in the first place on the probable looming famine and associated disasters thats going to start desperate people fleeing to wherever they can .

[Kal]

Some of my friends that I work with at hp were refugees that came from Vietnam via boat - quite often with terrifying and dangerous journeys.

Since Australia signed and ratified both the 1951 Refugee Convention and the 1967 Protocol relating to the status of refugees, you would think that we would be more compassionate toward them by now?

[h0ughy]

guys and gals,

please note this thread http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showpost.php?p=518488&postcount=1

[tlgerdes]

I used to be a Rednecked Aussie, then I found suncreen, now I prefer the life without that horrible stinging sensation.:D

What I like about this discussion is that we can talk about it.

Was the Howard government right, is the Rudd government right, who knows?

I dont know whether I have the right answer, I dont think at the moment anyone here has the right answer. But discussing it without accusations can and will bring us closer to the right answer.

[kinetic]

Amen brother!

[TrevorW]

So far on this site I haven't struck any I'd consider a weirdo.

We share a common interest that bonds us and this would IMO be lacking on other sites.

We are predominately law abiding, married, family people, who have worked considerable years to sustain our families and earned enough to enjoy our hobbies, few of us a wealthy to the extreme.

We also share a hobby that encourages us to explore, research and question and requires a modicom of intelligence something that again would not be common amongst those members of other threads.

I have found that topics can be discussed intellectually without resort to sarcasm, rudeness or outright hostility and when such hostiliy manifests itself, it is often moderated by other members, something which also IMO would be lacking elsewhere.

No I don't think personally I'd be interested in going to other sites to post a comment. I come here because there is some security in knowing that basically most of us do care.

[dpastern]

Yes, that is the case. However, the Bush, and Howard and Blair governments have played on people's fear factors to allow them to remove rights (habeus corpus anyone), spy on their populace (at least 100,000 US citizens were illegaly spied on by the Bush jr government, why isn't he being impeached?), segragation of races from each other based on religious beliefs. It's a well known fact that Christian fundamentalists are slowly infiltrating the US government and forcing their own beliefs into the political structure.

We've got the current Pope (I won't say on here what I really think of him cos it'll get me into trouble) who is encouraging hate crimes against those of different religions.

All of it is because, as a species, we're seemingly intolerant of others with different beliefs systems. We're distrusting and hateful and spiteful. I'd rather personally accept the boat people to be honest - better for our culture. Why turn away these people on the premise that a few might be bad? Do we apply similar principles and say ban car driving because there's a few bad drivers? No. We let everyone drive, even those who shouldn't be and we punish them *when* they commit the crime. Why can't the same logic be applied to the boat people? Is it really that hard to accept them - they are our fellow humans!

Mike - thanks for keeping this thread open. Whilst people's feelings are hot on subjects like this, it's nice to be able to sometimes discuss these things as a social group.

Dave

[dpastern]

It's not totally (!*&(!*, but it is heading this way. Humans need to take control of our destiny and start socially growing up. Now, before it is too late...

Dave

[Miaplacidus]

Uprooting your family, living in squalid refugee hovels for endless months or years. Then arriving in Australia, never mastering the lingo, always feeling yourself an outsider, living in a virtual slums, accepting a job well beneath your training and dignity. Constantly patronized by the locals, distrusted and vilified by the press, confused by the bureaucracy. Labelled an illegal, unlawful person. Then finding your own kids growing up alien to you, despising you because they're struggling between cultures and trying to escape yours, they just don't understand why you've done this to them. Watch them dropping out, falling into marginal groups prone to drugs and violence.

And this is the "good life" you've been running towards. What must it be like where you've come from?

[renormalised]

Who was the head of a Vatican organisation called "The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"...a.k.a The Inquisition. Yes, the Grand Inquisitor is now the Pope.

[renormalised]

The problem is not the veto vote....it's the whole U.N. in general. It's nothing but a gravy train for failed or retiring politicians, career bureaucrats and power despots. In short it's corrupt to the core and a joke. Along with its mates like the World Bank and other, more nefarious organisations, all it's interested in is keeping the status quo operating.

[h0ughy]

Thread locked. Please read this:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=518488#post518488