New Central Coast Dark Sky Observing site ?

[Allan_L]

How would you like to own your own Dark Sky observing site?
Open to you whenever you wish. 24x7
Yours to build your own shed or observatory or tent on.
Sharing with 16 other like minded entusiasts.
Away from main roads and sky glow.

17 acres of land in total.
So 17 owners sounds logical.
Great views.

At Bucketty.
(yeah thats where that other observatory is located)
Its listed for just $260,000.
But the wife wont approve the finance, so ...
I am looking for just another 16 enthusiasts with $15,000 each.

It is a solid investment, if nothing else.

Consider the possibilities.:question: :driving: :gday: :campfire: :camera: :sunny: :fishing: :painting: :rundog: :stargaze: :astron: :cheers: :abduct: :ship2: :anaut: :ship1:

[Wavytone]

I'd expect the council won't let it be subdivided into 17 x 1 acre lots. That means you're stuck with one title, which is where it will get ugly - for a group of people to own it collectively, I've seen contracts full of fine print the size of phone books.

If someone wants out later on, must the others buy him out, or not, and how on earth is the price to be agreed ? It's hard enough to reach an agreement between two people, let alone 10 or 15 others. And then there's maintenance...

I'm with your wife on this one. Unless its your own place I wouldn't do it, and if you really think its an investment, its all yours.

[Rhino1980]

Certainly is a nice idea, but I have been in a ski boat with two other guys and even that nearly ended in tears over the same issues just mentioned.

[Shano592]

Yeah, the idea sounds good, and Bucketty is a really nice dark-sky site, but it would just be a legal nightmare!

Have you tried Jedi mind tricks on the wife yet, or is she made of sterner stuff (like mine is)?

[Allan_L]

The pic

[jakob]

Good idea!
This is the next step for Iceinspace, a community observing site!:):D:P;):thumbsup::welcome::th anx:

[iceman]

Wow I would absolutely love that!

[wavelandscott]

How about forming the Ice In Space Dark Site Cooperative?

I'm neither a legal expert nor a real estate person but consider this...

At present there are 6,747 members...if each "joined" the Coop at $38.53 each you would have your new dark site.

Yes, I know it is not that easy but you get the idea.

Cooperative owns it and is run by an elected (yet unpaid) staff/committe.

Annual dues/assesments (or use fees) could generate upkeep and improvements...

Not sure about Coop Law in Australia but each contributor would then have a share of the Coop, they would be valued at assets divided by number of outstanding shares...value changes with the change in assets, a share is transferable etc. etc. In the USA Coops get certain favorable tax treatments as they are not designed to make profit only deliver a service...

If the Coop ever "Wound Down" the parcel is sold and revenue distributed to the Coop share holders...no tears!

[Rodstar]

I love the idea Allan, and have had it before myself, too!

To work, you would be best advised to create a corporate entity which acquires the land, and the 17 "owners" would be shareholders in the company with equal shareholding. There would need to be financial contributions agreed to under a Shareholders agreement to deal with such issues as upkeep and maintenance, council rates, insurances, access to and use of the facilities etc.

Because the company would have as its purpose an educational/ community based purpose, it may, if properly formed (it might for example be an incorporated association), obtain some relief from council rates etc.

I do not agree with the comment of one respondent that the legal documents would need to be the size of a phone book. I could ask one of our commercial/property lawyers at work to provide a guesstimate as to what the costs would be to prepare the documentation if there is sufficient interest.

Thinking practically, power could be an issue. I know someone who lives at Bucketty, and it cost him something like $40K to get power connected because of the remoteness of his location.

The order of things would have to be to first get the company formed, the shareholding in place from the raising of capital, the election of a board of directors, and then, once all of this is in place, steps being taken to acquire the property. Enough capital would have to be raised to cover legal fees and stamp duty as well as the purchase price itself.

All this can be done, it is simply a question of willingness and determination.

I could be convinced to join such a collective.

[iceman]

It would need broadband internet access too! :)

[jakob]

Dark sky is more important!

Not for profit, Incorporated association is quite simple, no tax, once a year financial statement, low fees.
Main issue will be the initial cash and ongoing maintenance cost.:question:

[Satchmo]

You need to start off with some research in to how many people ( mainly local ) would be keen enough to use the site regularly ( aside and including share cost considerations) and how much they would be prepared to pay for the privelage.

You might need to have some system to charge non-members to use the site to help cover costs ( if thats possible). Having a permanent site opens up possibilities of a full time caretaker and perhaps a serious internet connected telescope which would be another way to help cover costs and develop the site. Overseas visitors could pay reasonable money for southern facilities.

Perhaps and IIS poll would be a good start ?

I know the Buckety area is not very flat . How much usable flat land is there for developing personal observatory sites without major earthmoving involved ?

I don't see why power couldn't be produced from solar and wind 24volt and meet casual needs.

I have a dormant 24" f4 binocular project that would be re-awakened with somewhere to house it.:)

[mithrandir]

I can't see that one. I found one advert for 16 acres for $260K - 25 Bucketty Private Road 8 - but that road isn't on Google maps.

Koolang Observatory is not far away. http://users.hunterlink.net.au/koolang

[Allan_L]

I found it. And now they have dropped the price to "offers over $200,000"

[Rodstar]

Here's another thought....I wonder if the owner of the Koolang Observatory would consider leasing some of their land?

[Arthur Alchin]

I am looking for acres (with clear skies) in that direction to live on although search is in it's infancy.

If and when i find somewhere you are welcome to come up whenever, even bring the tents and stay a few days over the new moon. Even looking as far as Laguna.

One of the search criteria is that must have 360 degree sky view, a big clear paddock and power ( suppose will have to have a solid road for Jacobs mobile appendage)

[Arthur Alchin]

Has anyone ventured out toward Lemon Tree (Dooralong Rd) or Duran Duran (Mandalong Rd: not the music group) for Dark skies???

[Jazza11]

This would be amazing if we could get up an IIS observatory i would gladly donate money to that

[Menthu Rae]

Hi guys,

New member here.

I live in Sydney, but FYI my mum owns a ~200 acre property (Horse Stud) several minutes north of Bucketty (Koolang Observatory). Accommodation on-site is available for 14 people, usually at a cost of $40/head per night...

If however there were a group of people (say 5+) who would be interested in using the property for astronomy purposes - I could probably arrange something with my mum for you to get a cheaper rate. :thumbsup:

EDIT: If it were to be a continuous thing, i.e. every 2-3 months I could probably work out something even better... but let's see what the interest is first.

Site has dark skies, is in a bit of a valley but there is plenty of flat paddock available to set up equipment on, site has power, running water, kitchen w/ convection microwave, 2 ensuite bathrooms, TV & DVD, fans, column heater, BBQ, etc.

I will try to keep an eye on this thread but I have exams coming up. I will likely be heading up the end of november, beginning of december to try out my first proper scope, a Celestron Astromaster 90. ;) :)

[Allan_L]

Hi Luke, :welcome:
Welcome aboard!
Thanks for posting here, and we may well take you up on your offer. We can chat about it anyway.

Now, when you come up to visit, make sure to call into the current observing site at Mangrove Mountain, lovingly called the Pony Club. You will see a thread in this forum detailing the date(s) (around the New Moon) and there is a sticky thread with directions.

You will find a group of friendly people, with lots of knowledge to share, who will be only to glad to help you with your set up and best use of your new scope. Polar alignment etc. You try different eyepieces with your scope for example. And you'll be able to look through the various scopes if you wish too.

We are always happy to welcome new comers and help as we can. And I can guarantee you will be glad you did.

I look forward to meeting you then.

Good Luck with your exams ! :thumbsup:

[Allan_L]

Spoke to Estate Agent.
It sounds very suitable.
Large areas with the best views have apparently already been cleared (prep for house). Very ideal for observatory I am told.

Except Power not currently on the property, although ajacent to a remote corner of the property. Agent suggests Solar Panels. {So we can save the planet at the same time)

anyway, I now have maps DP and permission to go and have a look.

But I understand there has been considerable interest since the latest price drop (as mentioned in a previous post). As there is nothing of this quality in this price range about.

I hope to be going there later today (after 5).
not going to happen. Tomorrow Saturday probably around 10am maybe.
Anyone want to come? PM me.

I wonder if this might suit Arthur?
Ideal Scenario.
Arthur buys it and allows us all to camp there as and when :question:

Oh if anyone knows me this could end up with me in trouble .

:question: Bike track by day, observatory by night. Vs Divorce.:question:

[Arthur Alchin]

Thanks for the thought Allan, Deb and I will be searching for a fully established place we can just physically move into.

I think the legislative hoops and crap you have to go through now to build in the bush areas puts me off that idea.

[gb_astro]

Hi too Luke.
Sounds great.
Is there a website for the property?

gb.

[gary]

http://www.michaelkidd.com.au/properties.php?id=177975

[iceman]

Magnificent spot. A bit of tree clearing and it would be ideal.

[Allan_L]

I think Greg was asking Luke for the website to his mum's stud with accommodation.
====
I went to the block of land for sale last Saturday.
I took copious photos.
Yes I think it is the same block I was talking about, there are two Estate Agents signs posted.
The one I saw was Crossley Real Estate and they say it has been reduced to "offers over $200k).

the good news is that there was a stream in the valley (on the block).

The bad news is I could not see it.

I really could not see any practicle use of the land by our club, or anyone for that matter.

90% of it would be a virtual cliff face.
Only a small portion seems useable to me.

If you want to look up the site it is E151* 12' 15.64" / S33* 7' 57.50"

Sternbeck Road Bucketty (some say Sternback Rd) (some call the area cedar brush).

A local road crosses it three times.

See attached docs

At the end of the day I reckon Lukes mum's stud farm has more potential.
But it would be even further north of us than Koolang.

[jakob]

Alan, Thanks for the info.
Not very inspiring!
PC still looks very good:D:D:D

[gary]

Hi Allan,

Private Road 8 comes off the turn-off at "The Letter A".

We have been observing from the Bucketty area for the past 14 years and
can testify as to the quality of the skies there given their proximity to
Sydney and the Central Coast. You still get sky glow from Sydney in the
south and a hint of glow in the north from the open cut coal mines, but
it is dramatically better place from which to observe with regards light
pollution compared to, say, even the Pony Club at Mangrove Mountain.

From an observing point of view, it is also advantageous to be up on one of
the ridge tops, as this property is, compared to lower ground in the same
area. The reason for that is fog. For example, during one period a few years
back, Mai and I observed from a property at Bucketty almost every clear night
of the week for a few months at a time, and often from dusk to dawn. Our observing
site was also on a ridge top, but the fog would commonly fill the valleys below
and sometimes reach our altitude, sometimes as early as midnight and at
other times not until 5am, in which case we would have to pack it in.

One of the main northerly flight paths to Mascot passes over the Yengo
and if you have even been on one of the early morning incoming
flights into Sydney around the time they lift the curfew, when you look down
it is not uncommon to see all that maze of little valleys to be filled with fog.

Having said that, the area tends to be light on rainfall and the nearby Mangrove
Mountain Dam seems to act as some sort of rain repellent. :)

Friends have been building a house at Bucketty on a large property we helped them
find some time back. These days the RFS has final say in the DA approval process
and a requirement house builders have to meet in the area is a 40m clearance between
the exterior wall of any structure and the nearest vegetation. This requirement
pre-dates the Victorian fires.

If nothing is to ever be built on the property, then the 40m requirement is unlikely
to be an issue. However, if plans were to include the building of some structure
at some point in the future, one may anticipate they will be enforced.

As an example of how high the bar can get raised, if a ridge top has a level
area that then drops away suddenly, if the 40m clearance cannot be met on the level
area, they will require clearing down the slope, which can possibly entail
earth moving and additional expense. With this in mind, when considering the
net worth of a property in that area, if one has plans on building anything on it
or plans on reselling it at some point in the future, the tough DA requirements
on cleared area should be taken into account in assessing the properties true
market value.

At first 40m does not sound like much, but when you see the size of an area
that is devoid of all vegetation for 40m in all four directions, one quickly appreciates
it is a sizable parcel of land. Of course, such clearances are ideal for observing
but they can be a catch for the prospective buyer looking at building on his new
parcel of land.

Michael Kidd tends to handle the bulk of real estate business in the
Bucketty area. It has never been the fastest moving areas as far as
real estate sales and we have seen some properties on the market there for
eight years. Having said that, prices have risen dramatically in the past
five years and we have no shortage of the usual "make a grown man cry"
stories about how comparatively low prices were only a few years ago
compared to today. :)

Good luck with your inquires and I am sure forum members look forward to your
follow-up impressions.

[Menthu Rae]

Hi again guys,

Sorry for the delayed reply - been flat out with my Uni thesis. Yes it is further north than Koolang, but no kidding, only by ~5 minutes (10km by road, speed limit I think is 80km/hr along that stretch?)

The website for the accomodation is:

http://www.apptrakstud.com/

Note that I'm yet to confirm it all with my mum, so please don't go emailing or calling her about it just yet. Once my exams are finished (23rd of November) - I will try to get it all sorted out with her and then post up the details on here again (with a dedicated thread perhaps).

As per gary's post - fog mayyyy be an issue. It's been many many years since I lived up there, so I can't say for sure, but I do recall it was foggy some mornings.

Note that the property does have access to mountain sites - one approx 220m ASL and the other around 230m ASL. Bulk of the property is ~110m ASL.

I'm unsure as to what the views would be like from those elevations - but I would say that any clearings would still have a number of trees within close proximity.

Nevertheless, there is plenty of land and I'm sure you guys (& girls) could find a suitable observing site on the property :)