speeding

[xelasnave]

I have an idea..one that makes wonderful sence and yet has no hope of being acted upon... as it is not politically correct.

The term politically correct has seen some corruption to cover many things but it was first used to denote an action that although reasonable and perhaps worthy is not the smart thing to do if you wish to stay in office...

We have speed restriction signs and methods of enforcement that still sees many accidents attributed to excessive speed..

Now when race cars come into the pit lane they slow down because the driver can throw a switch that limits the car speed specifically to that laid down by the race rules...and I think this switch may be activated via wireless...and if it isnt such is technically possible and no big deal...

So why could we not impliment a system of transmitters that send a message to a car say in a school zone that overrides the drivers desire to go faster than the rules allow... well because it would not be politically correct...when cars enter a built up area the limiter is activated and drivers bound to the speed limit irrespective of how hard the push the pedal to the metal.

Think of the lost revenue from the speed cameras etc that in the new era would have no speeders to fine..think of the reduction of the "speed economy"..its not only the car freaks and speed buffs that would grizzle but also lawyer smash repairers etc...

So I suspect that such a reasonable approach will fail and even those who frown on speedsters would see this control as a loss of freedom... well freedom to speed is not on for mine but again there is no doubt in my mind the idea would be laughed at..too expensive for new gear etc...but how nice would the roads be if folk simply had to follow the rules and government could not hypocritically treat a problem as a mere revenue raising opportunity.

AND whilst we are fitting the speed limiters why not also tie the ignition system to a breath tester for as many banned substances..but mainly drink... would that not be wonderful..but I suspect the hotel lobby would not see the merit as like most all they will care about is not how many lives will be saved but how many dollars will be lost...

Why are we so slack with something that kills each day and yet can legislate to ban incandecent light globes ...one wonders why money is such a God.

alex:):):)

[Allan_L]

You got my vote Alex !
If only .....:question:

[bojan]

Alex, I would not bet all this you are talking about will not become reality one day.. Big brother is watching us, ane when techology is mature enough, "He" will start doing things to us..

On speeding: I am not trying here to advocate for change od rules.. or even worse, for disobedience.. But still it is worth mentioning that in Germany, on Autobahns, your can drive as fast as your car go.. 150km/h.. 200km/h... 300km/h. Or more. And believe me, lots of cars driven there can do this.
And yet, there is not much more accidents than here, where "speed kills".
True, there are some crucial differences:
1) Car must pass roadworthy test (and this is a REAL test) every year, otherwise you can not register it
2) Driving license is much harder to get (more hours learning, stricter exams).
I am not against the rules, but I like to call things their real names.
Speed does not kill. But bad and drunk drivers and faulty cars.. yes they do. Even if they are not speeding.

[Clarry]

I see your point xelasnave, but to be honest, it's would be very "Big Brotherish". I'm not defending reckless speeding or drink driving but if you violently regulate everything we do all the time, life wouldn't be worth living.

[bojan]

Or, we should simply take public transport (when it becomes existent in Australian cities)

[xelasnave]

I saw this clip of a guy on a bike going down a crowded freeway? at near 300 klms and he did not die so one wonders just how many get away with similar...
The drink is a grave concern... I go to the pub and it amazes me how some can even walk to the car let alone drive it and the failure to really fix the drinking problem sees so many lives lost or bodies rendered useless.

I feel an ignition linked to a breath tester would be great...last Friday I was so cut I should not have been driving and waking the next morning had no idea what got into me..well the drink of course...and irrespective of the penelaties my brain had signed off..I would have been happy to have big brother flicking the off switch...

I think we already live in the big brother world... certainly we have as many cameras looking at us as George Orwell wrote of in his classic book...1984...wow we past that without those animals taking over..mmm, no that was Animal Farm.. another interesting insite as to the corruptive power of power...

I do think it is hypocritical in a land where speed is limited by law to 110 max (I know there are places etc) that even my little 4 cylinder city car will reach the ton... no I have not tested its top speed but at 125 you can tell it will go all the way... so why not simply set cars up to do only say 150 k not as many "family" sedans are capable of....speeds well in excess of 200 thats for sure.

alex

[Benno18]

Ha. proper public transport in capital cities. . . . theres another one for the polly to hard basket.

I think we should have a power restriction on the car you drive when your on your P plates (first 2 years), Keep it to 4 cylinders, with no extras. Proper training course should be taken when learning, how to emergency brake, drive on gravel, how to get your self out of a dangerous situation. At the learners expence, which would slow people down from getting there license.

And I dont think the speed limiter is the go its got to be the power. 4 cylinder cars can still go 160-170kms/hr. But it takes a long stretch of road to get to that speed and more than likely down hill. By that time they would have needed to turn or slow down for other cars. and do that sort of speedon a consistent basis the car will eventually burn out and die .

[Rod66]

Every freedom and right we give up to be controlled by another seems to be eventually used against us, sometimes corruptly by the powers that be. Case in point - the 14 days detention no excuse laws - I wonder how that innocent indian gent feels these days..
Great idea, but its just so open to abuse that I fear the abuse of power more than the good it would do...

[bojan]

And imagine what an average hacker can do... stop your car in the middle of nowhere, then there is another group waiting for you to clean you and your car...
No thanks.
My car will NEVER have bluetooth or anything that even smells of internet connectivity ...

[Jabba]

I think thats a great idea although I dont see it happening unfortunately.
The government makes too much dam money from driving offenses to try and resolve the issue and reduce the road death toll...

[AstralTraveller]

Jeez Alex, you must have got me stirred up because I could be at the Unibar rather than typing this. So just a few quick thoughts.

I sometime thing we have rules so people don't have to think. There is a big interchange near here with an 80km/h limit. This arvo at 5pm 80 would be quick around there, probably too quick. If it was raining 80 is far too quick. On Sunday morning however there would be a car ever 100-150m and 100km/h would be OK. So why a fixed limit? So drivers don't have to judge the situation for themselves? The hills behind here can get pea-soup fogs with visibility so poor you can't see the white lines on the road yet plenty of drivers just stick to the 80km/h limit. Madness. Not thinking for themselves.

I also think that people get licences too easily. Too many people think that if you can travel at 60 down a straight road you can drive. I started to learn at about 12-13 but was restricted to the parents yard. I put the cars away at night, got them out of the garage in the morning, swapped them around (we had 2 cars), backed the trailer or van up the driveway around the corner of the house and up the yard etc etc. By the time I was allowed on the road I could handle the clutch, close manouvre very well and felt quite at home behind the wheel. I also had a good driver who was quite a pedant for a teacher. He wouldn't let me get away with forming bad habits (I still remember once staying in a lower gear when I had time to change up a gear and then down again. I was told it showed I was not confident. So I never did that again!) However my wife had a poor driver as a teacher who passed on bad habits. The examiner didn't pick her up and she still has those bad habits 30 years later - despite a few domestics when her driving has got too ugly to bear.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Time for a red.

[Lumen Miner]

The powers at be will always fall back on, "To avoid some accidents, you can not govern the speed of a vehicle". For example, even in a 40 zone, if a semi with no brakes is hurtling down the hill behind you, you need to be able to go over 40 to get out of the way...

I don't think governing speeds is a solution. Something like NZ would go down well. Non-fixed speed cameras. What is the point of a fixed speed camera with a sign warning you?? Just the fact that there is a sign, warning you is pathetic. What's the point? Everyone just slows down.

Or alternatively 5-10 km/h over the limit $500 dollar fine or 10-30km/h over you get slammed with $10,000.

I say make the cameras like NZ, move them every 2 weeks and don't warn a speeding driver to slow down prior to it...

While we are on 40 zones, we really really need the flashing lights at every one. Many a time I have missed a 40 zone, no clock in my car and you can't touch your phone so....?

[Kal]

I can just imagine the deadbeat moron ***** that throw rocks from motorway overpasses might think of taking any transmitter and "relocate" it from a school zone to a freeway for laughs, causing massive accidents. Something so powerful can also be extremely dangerous with the people we have in our society.

[mithrandir]

Vehicles traveling significantly below the posted speed limit are as much of a menace as speeders. We need a law (and have it enforced) that requires slow traffic on single lane roads to pull over to allow faster traffic to pass. Say once you have 5 or more vehicles queued up for 1km. Starting by enforcing the "keep left unless overtaking" laws would be a good thing.



What happens to P platers who don't own their own and whose parent's cars all have >= 5 cyls?

Wasn't there some suggestion of <= 6 cyl and no turbos?

You couldn't drive a 1.4l Smart because it's a turbo, but you could drive a 3.6l Porsche as long as it wasn't a turbo.

[Benno18]

Yeah i understand the whole borrowing of the parents car thing, but if you drive the parents car you still have to have the plates up. If you dont its 50 bucks a plate.
If the person driving didnt have the plates up, driving the folks car which is say a holden commodore (3.6 V6) and driving like an idiot, then higher penalty applies, and not 'Oh son I hope you have learned you lesson. Here is a $150 fine.' Make it substantial couple hundred with demerits or impound the car.

And the Porsche thing, if the cops see a porsche, with p plates up. they are going to pull it over on any given day again no plates=some sort of fine. And what parent would give there porsche to there 17/18/19 year old kid and say 'here have a good time. Make sure your home by 12, and no funny business' Its just not going to happen. At least where im from. If my parents gave me a car like that to drive around on a friday nite in the middle of Perth, I dont think they would have done it twice. . . . for a few reasons:)

[Lumen Miner]

Ummm, is it just NSW, we already have these restrictions.?

No 8's, no vehicles with turbo for non working means eg. small unique economical vehicles, with turbos to actually get it moving are ok, ford 6 cyc turbos not a chance. There is a list of compliant turbo's for P platers.

You are right though, there are still a few cars of high preformance like my supercharged calais which seem to bend the rules...


Mmmmmm Porsche..... I am a Porsche man through and through, got it from my dad. Took a 924 for a drive the other day, I want a 911 or a 1960 356b.

[Benno18]

Yeah WA is a bit behind in the laws with this one. I think they are trying to increase the learners hours behind the wheel, Thats everyone fakes anyway. I really enjoyed that non-stop trip from perth to broome and back!, and on the power issue. Same thing no v8s and no turbo.

Do you lend your porsche to your kids much?:lol:

[Lumen Miner]

By "Got it from my dad" I mean got the love of porsche design from him. My Father never gave me anything, another good life lesson.

In NSW they scrutinize your hours. I knew a bloke that drove to work and home with his dad on working days. They drove 2 hours down the coast every mourning and 2 hours home.
When it came to the P's test, they knocked him back insisting the hours were not plausible. 4 Signed declarations from his employers, family,friends later he was allowed to go for the test.


I think when I have kids, I would. The biggest lesson I learnt as a kid was, to not trash my dad's BMW or it would get taken away. I rode a fine line, as I would expect them to.

[GrahamL]

Speeding ,, How about a desginated zone your driveing in by side lines painted on the roadside,, I swear sometimes your driveing in an area you don't know well and be it somone ahead being an arse or a truck you don't always see whats on offer speed wise or changeing speed zones around road works ect.


I believe nearlly all new young drivers skills are way behond what most of us have and they should be given the nod in that most of them are a credit to the pretty Good testing hoops you have to jump through to get a card... but how do you stop our kids makeing those little errors that can sometimes take them away from us ?.. I swear I don't know.. can you legislate common sense into law by imposing fines ???

What about Geezers ?.. the older folks who don't know where enough reverse is enough ...or find 100 kmh road signs are seen as merely a
suggestion .. and the road verge is something you just don't understand why its there... giveway /stop signs are a little optional in regard to when you pull out from them ?
While I'm not quite there... yet :)

[pgc hunter]

Don't support it, what a feral idea. This country is already such a huge nanny state. Can't say or do anything without getting into trouble these days. Overriding driver's control of their owm freaking car is pure lunacy and beyond even the levels of North Korea, and quite dangerous aswell...imagine if your car suddenly started doing things out of your control.....I'd say that would cause more deaths and injuries as shocked and surprised drivers would lose thier concentration and/or attempt to make what could be dangerous decisions in a vain attempt to correct their vehicle. I can however imagine our Nanny PM/premiers introducing such crap to even further drain the freedom of us babies....

Speed limits are already being dropped everywhere to ridiculous levels and drivers are forced to obey ever stupider road rules and an incredible amount of revenue cameras, under the guise of reducing the road toll......why doesn't nanny Krudd et al ban driving altogether? Here in Vic for example (the state with the strictest, most nazi road rules) there is a bloody revenue camera at almost every bloody intersection :mad2: :mad2: I suppose that brings more of innocent people's hard earned to their coffers than upgrading the crappy 2 lane road network in this country to freeway standard, as in Europe and North America. 2009 and you cant even drive between ANY capital city on dual carraigeway......well only Syd and Canberra but that is not anywhere near as busy (nor lengthy) as the Mel-Syd-Bris route for example, much of which is a dogs breakfast of single and dual carriageways reverting between each other several dozen times. The real reason for many deaths on the roads is a rubbish road network, drugs, alcohol etc, not speeding as our communist PM and premiers insist on brainwashing us over.



What a silly idea. What if the P-plater's parent's /gaurdian's only have 6 cylinder cars? Then the poor bugger will have to wait several extra years to learn to drive. Driving is a key life skill and is almost essential for things like jobs, buying groceries to keep yourself fed etc. Why the hell deny that to people, simply because they are "unfortunate" enough to have parents with a Ford Falcon or Holden Commodore in the garage...dad's v6 station wagon isn't exactly a bloody top fuel dragster :rolleyes: And you contradicted yourself when you said that "4 cylinder cars can still go 160-170km/h"......isn't "speed" THE reason why you want P-platers to be forced to drive 4 cylinder vehicles, yet you're suggesting that 4 cylinder machines can still rip up the asphalt...

I learnt to drive on 6 cylinder cars yet I'm still alive...and never had an accident :rolleyes: It's not the bloody car, it's the driver. Give an idiot a 4 cyl car, and they'll die just as fast as in a v8. The driver has to respect the vehicle and drive to the conditions within his/her ability, not to the artificial standards of a bunch of pigs with their snouts in the trough.


Sorry for the long rant, I just find the constant and ever new restrictions on innocent motorists to be blatantly stupid and unfair. As usual, the 99% of the population is being punished for the actions of a few, all in the name of revenue.

[Benno18]

I didnt mean to contradict myself. I dnt deny that 4 cyl cars can get to the 150km/hr mark what i mean is that it takes longer to get to that speed. Rip up the asphalt too many times and the car wont be working very well as they arn't designed to get to those speeds at such a fast rate. Also i think it would be fine for a LEARNER to learn in a 6 cyl car, just when they get to there P's they can only have a 4cyl car. By the time the P plater is 17/18/19 they should be earning money in some way and could only afford a cheap car anyway. well thats the way it should work, i think

[mithrandir]

"Cheap" often equates with "old". Meaning your inexperienced driver doesn't get all the advantages of ABS, multiple airbags, ANCAP **** safety, etc at the time when they most probably need them.

[stephenb]

I do not support that idea, because you are taking away the full control and responsibility of the vehicle away from the driver.

[Miaplacidus]

The answer, Alex, is to stick a great big pointy spear on the steering wheel and have it pointing directly at the driver's heart. (It has already been demonstrated that air bags, although they save more lives, also cause more accidents because driver's factor them into their risk-of-death calculations when doing something stupid. It really is basic economics. Moral hazard, and all that...)
I'm afraid you just will never din it into the majority of the population that driving is a privilege and not a right. I see people who have had strokes trying to get their licence back, and the argument that they might pose a risk to others just doesn't wash. Alcoholics are the same. Young people, old people — so many just don't give a rat's what might happen to perfect strangers. All that is important is having the right to drive insanely fast whenever they feel like it. How depressing...

[Peter Ward]

I find it disturbing that many Australians are so brainwashed that they actually believe the PC nonsense constantly wheeled out regarding vehicle speed. A breath of fresh air appeared in today's SMH.

"German autobahns are often cited as a model by advocates of higher speed limits in Australia. And with good reason: they seem to work. Despite having no speed limit along much of their routes, these massive roads account for 31 per cent of road travel and just 3 per cent of the road toll. A 2005 study by the German interior ministry found sections with unrestricted speeds had the same crash rate as sections with a variety of speed limits imposed."


Meanwhile back in our bubble-wrapped nanny Oz the revenue stream for minor speed incursions continues to flow....

[Astro78]

1. $50 hands free kit compulsory purchase with rego. No mobile, bad luck.
2. Police chases need to be reconsidered
3. Done once for drink driving, that $1000 odd fine goes straight to a breathalizer key
4. Empower 'car lovers' with more race tracks and most powerfully get the hoons teaching safe driving practise to other convicted hoons.

just my 2 cents

[Peter Ward]

Good to see some thought has gone into this :)

BUT... why should I pay for a hands free if my car (gosh darn it...wouldn't you know...it's German! ) already has an integrated phone ( in dash & on the steering wheel) system?

[Astro78]

Lucky you ;)

Fair call - you wouldn't

I would however like to see a proportional system of fines to ones assets or income. If deterrent is the reason we have fines, then....it's really only demerit points deterring a $500k director for example. Sorry it's 2009, $10.4 million dollar director

[pgc hunter]

here here mate! The simple fact that the Bracks Nazi regime reduced the tolerance to 3km/h is revenue raising...anyone who cant see that is obviously brainwashed. Ofcourse, his partner in crime John Buttby continues his assault on motorists :mad2:

It's only a matter of time before this socialist commie nazi PC cotton wool govt bans any form of transport whatsoever.

[AstralTraveller]

That is the logical conclusion to be drawn. :P

[dpastern]

Sab - it's not a necessity. I've had my licence for 10 years but hardly drive as I do not have a car. It has not been a necessity for me in my 20+ years of working. It's handy, but not a necessity.

Alex - F1 cars are not done wirelessly. There's a limiter switch on the steering wheel which is programmed to drop the speed of the F1 car to 60km/h in the pit lane. There is a very valid reason for this - safety. There are a lot of people in the pit, and a speeding car could potential go out of control and hurt a lot of people.

Lots of things could be done to cars, and I think that most of them are good ideas to be honest. I see so many drivers, and to be honest, the vast majority of them must have gotten their licences from Kellogs corn flakes boxes!

Bojan - speed does kill. It's a major factor. Slowing down in an emergency when doing 180km/h is a lot harder than when doing 90km/h - no matter which car you are driving. Braking distances are longer, driver reaction times are far more important. Many people do not keep proper distances from the car in front of them, many speed, and speed on unfamiliar sections of road too. Many drive like ratbags in poor weather conditions, and do not adjust their driving style accordingly.

BTW - whilst there's no speed limit on the autobahn, many do not do 180km/h etc. Most do travel around the 100km/h mark from everything that I've seen/read/heard.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

This was not my experience.

For around a decade I spent a lot of time visiting Germany and frequently used their autobahns. Doing 100km/hr was frankly dangerous and would invite attention from the local traffic Polizei. You'd be told to take the tourist route!

140/160km/hr was a comfortable zone for most of the Merc's & Golf's I hired.

Going slow in the left lane(s) definitely invites a WTF?! from the locals.

You only passed on the left.

Even transonic Beemers/Ferraris/Mercs would dutifully pull back to the middle lane after passing.

We drive like mugs in comparison. Speed is not the issue. Attentive, predictable driving that also makes your intentions clear to other motorists would go a long way to cleaning up our act.

(PS The Germans are intolerant of drink driving. You cannot drink and drive. Drink driving can involve loss of license and 15,000 Euro in fines... and if you injure someone. Go to gaol. Directly to goal. No excuses. The consequences, unlike Oz, are severe )

[dpastern]

Even the best driver will have issues slowing a car that is going faster. There is no need for high speeds on the roads, 100km/h is more than fast enough. Modern society is far too obsessed with doing things @ a million miles per hour imho.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

Yes. Ban running too. Despite the aerobic and fitness benefits, sprinting into a light pole can kill. :doh:

This has been well covered elsewhere. Speed is not the issue ( no one can refute the German autobahn data). Driving like a drongo is however, dangerous.

[dpastern]

I agree that driving like a drongo is dangerous, but the sad issue is, the vast majority of our drivers do just that. I don't have to be driving a car to see it - I see enough as a pedestrian and public transport user. It's rather scary. Speed is a factor - if you're going to crash, then you want to usually crash at slower speeds.

Dave

[pgc hunter]

Not to mention reaching speeds of up to 15km/h! maybe nanny Krudd should padlock people to their houses...that way no one will die :screwy:

very true, totally agree....but Supernannies running our states must brainwash the public and reduce "speeding" tolerances to 2km/h in order to fill their troughs....to compensate for their own incompetence, budget blowouts etc.

Sad thing is alot of people actually fall for it and then bang on about how any amount of speed above 0km/h is "deadly" and bull like that. if I had my way...all dual lane country highways would be 130km/h, 2 lane rural roads 110km/h, urban freeways 110km/h and freeway tunnels 90km/h. That way people might not actually fall asleep on the Hume and other highways that have artificailly low speed limits. Some over engineered roads such as Eastlink and the Princes Hwy between Melbourne and Geelong should be 130km/h. :rolleyes:

This brings me to another thing....that Nazi labour premier John buttby reduced the Westgate Fwy speed limit to 80km/h from the bridge to the tunnel in response to that accident in the burnley tunnel....OMG what is that gonna solve, the limit in the tunnel is already 80km/h, the rest of the bloody road has NOTHING to do with that crash :mad2:

[Peter Ward]

This ignores some basic physics.

Pedestrians stepping in front of slow moving Mack trucks will always loose. Do we now say all trucks must only travel at 30km/hr or less??

There are times when speed is not only desirable, but safer (eg. aviation...go too slow, you stall & die)

Training drivers to be aware of when speed or lack thereof is appropriate would seem a better alternative....as despite draconian regulation in Oz...we bury all too many road users.

[dpastern]

Flying and driving are 2 vastly different things imho - one is 2d, the other 3d. Whilst I have no experience with being a pilot, I can only imagine that it takes a fair bit to be a good one. The pedestrian comment is a bit silly Peter, because you've taken me right out of context with it. There is no real need for high speeds - most people (and cars for that matter), are not capable of doing high speeds. Unless you have F1 reflexes and driving ability, then the faster you go, the higher the risk of more damage if something does happen.

I wholly agree that driver training in Australia is very poor - but that has never been the real interest of governments I'm afraid.

I'll give you an example of "speed" - when I was 2 or 3, my parents had me in their car (VW) and were driving up to my aunt/uncles place (they lived on an Aboriginal mission near Caroona, itself not far from Quirindi in NSW). My dad used to take the putty putty road, because it was quieter and more scenic. On one occasion, this truck, with a trailer on it, but unladen came flying around a blind corner and his trailer slid out, well and truly onto the wrong side of the road. He was speeding. My dad was doing the speed limit and reacted accordingly - pulling as far to the left as possible (a few centimetres from the armco) and avoided an accident. If that trailer had hit us, we'd all be dead I'd say. It had enough speed, force and mass to make a mess of things, not to mention there was a drop on the left if we went through the armco (which was going to be very highly likely I might add). If my dad had been driving faster, then he would have had less time to react, and probably would not have been able to successfully avoid the truck's trailer. If the truck driver had been driving at appropriate speeds, his trailer wouldn't have slid out onto the wrong side of the road.

I'm pretty pi$$ed that some dropkick truck driver was speeding and nearly killed a young family because of his stupidity.

See my point now?

Dave

[AstralTraveller]

David,

Was the truck driver speeding or simply going too fast for the conditions? I think it is an important distinction. If one is going to make the argument, which I have some sympathy for, that one can drive safely above our posted speed limits one must also accept that on occasions the posted limit is too fast. Apart from some roads not being up to standard there is rain, fog, road works, heavy traffic and whatever else to consider.

Too many people seem to think that the number on the road sign is the slowest they should travel and nothing should ever stop them from doing that speed. Delays and the unexpected are part of driving and you just have to accept that. They are never an excuse to get angry or aggressive, nor make up for lost time afterwards. Even other motorists being idiots is a fact of life which shouldn't cause you to do something stupid.

[dpastern]

David - by all accounts, both. I believe the speed limit was 60, and he was both doing that and more, and the corner was really a tightish hairpin, 50 in a car was a safe speed. In a truck, with a longer wheel base...my dad showed me the spot a few years ago when we were driving up that way.

As my dad has always said (and he's been driving longer than most in this thread I'd say) - the speed limit is the *maximum* speed. There is NO law saying that you must travel at this speed.

I watch people drive in the rain and they drive like ratbags. Instead of cutting speed by the usual recommend 30% they speed up! People do not drive within their limits. Well, the vast majority that I see in my usual day to day activity.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

No.

The truckie was driving like a drongo.

You could *park* a truck on the wrong side of the road with similar disastrous consequences.

Plus you seem to be in denial about German autobahn statistics...every bugger there is going quite fast, yet there is *an order of magnitude* difference *less* in the accident rate.

Hence my position, it's not how fast you drive, it's how you drive.

[dpastern]

Oh well, I believe it's a combination of the 2, with those going faster being at higher risk of hurting both themselves and others. Yes, the truck driver was driving like a drongo, but if he was *doing* the speedlimit, or an appropriate speed, then the issue would NEVER have arisen. Speed was a factor.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

....Apparently not on German Autobahns

[Astro78]

It certainly does, such as the impact force increasing by the square of the speed. So a mere increase of 20km/hr from 60 to 80 doubles the impact force.

An interest article -pro speed increase - http://www.smh.com.au/drive/motor-news/is-speed-really-a-killer-20091030-ho9e.html

[DJDD]

i cannot think of any instances in day-to-day driving in a city when driving faster is safer...



training should be a good idea, and the more training and experience we have the safer we all should be.

of course, we cannot seem to "train" our citizens that drinking a lot is unhealthy and dangerous and that eating a lot of sweet, sugary foods without exercising, as well, is unhealthy.

so, I submit that without the "draconian" regulation in OZ perhaps we would have an even higher road toll...

[marki]

Here's another great statistic. The longer you stay at an intersection the greater the chance of being involved in an accident. Logic then demands you should not stop at intersections but rather cross them at the highest possible speed your car can achieve to reduce your risk to a minimum. Not too sure about this though :question:

Peter whilst the German system seems to work the Italian equivilant was not so successful (driver temperment?) having frequent huge pile ups. Whilst I hate over regulation by the powers that be, I also cringe at the thought of a no holds barred public race track in Australia. I see so much stupidity on the roads each day driving to and from work it is scary. I like to travel fast and have always owned big bore motor cycles but quite frankly I doubt most Australians are up to it. I do not support big brother tactics in any way and would join the fight to prevent such tatics being employed at a moments notice, but our speed limits are not all bad and you still get from A to B. Keep the high speed jinks on the race track where they belong. Everyone is going the same way, no kids to hit and there is an ambulance waiting to take you away if you stuff up.

Mark

[KenGee]

Speed limiting road traffic would be great, I would also go for yearly driving retests and big fines and loss of licence for any infringements. It is very easy to stay within the speed limits and other roads rules, however it seems to be beyond many people. These people as often as not complain about government revenue raisers, talk about not taking responsibility. Unfortunate for most people they will not wake up to the reality of the situation until someone close to them is killed in a traffic accident.
Peter, true planes may fall out of the sky if they are not going fast enough, but they do simular things if they go to fast as well, and going the right speed is particularly important when taking off or landing is it not.

[dpastern]

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who seems to think that speed can be an issue on our roads. There are many factors though, not just speed. Driver ability, road conditions and plain old commonsense (sadly lacking).

Dave

[Peter Ward]

Frankly I'm non-plussed by the IMHO dopey & simplistic "speed kills" mantra: it ignores so many other factors that can and do cause crashes on a daily basis.

Doing 20km an hour in the middle lane of the M5 is stupid and dangerous, as would be doing 220km/hr.

Would someone care to explain specifically why the German autobahns have 10x better safety than the speed limited roads there????

If the speed mantra were true this would clearly not be the case.

BTW as for basic physics, I was referring to the momentum of the truck.... Darwin awards are freely available for those who wish to step in front of one ( as clearly slow moving truck must be safe ;) )

[bojan]

I totally agree.

And the secret is simple, as I mentioned earlier:
1) better cars and annual road-worthy test (not just when the car is sold)
2) driver training (some of drivers here would NEVER get their license in Germany)
3) penalties for traffic offences, including loss of license (for life, if need be)

As you mentioned earlier, speed with no limits on Autobahns does not mean they drive crazy. They drive at speed appropriate to their abilities and conditions. For slower driving there are plenty of local roads.
I was there as well, and yes, they do drive fast.. once I was driving towrds Munich from Salzburg at 130 or so..slow..) . and something black overtook me.. I think it was Ferrari Bagira or similar.. I will never know what it was because one moment it was far behind me, visible in my mirror, next moment it was far in front of me.

Again, speed DOES NOT kill. Lousy drivers, however, they do.

[DJDD]

as an analogy- guns do not kill but crazy/angry people do...hence regulations.


speed can kill rather than injure.
Since Australians will always be inconsiderate drivers (generalising from observation) and will never/rarely learn to be better drivers nor polite drivers (i.e. drive in the appropriate lane, don't get angry at small mistakes made by others, etc.) then speed limits/regulations should be enforced.

As I said, i think the road toll would be higher if we had no speed limits or higher speed limits on our roads,

[spearo]

I cant help it, I'll join in....

I've heard both sides of these arguments for years now but I like Peter's example of stepping in front of a slow moving Mack the best!
classic!

For what its worth i'll reveal my position right away: I side with Peter here.

Speed does NOT kill (the sudden stop does)- poor skills, poor communal ability to predict what the other drivers will do in various circumstances, poor road conditions, various levels of drugs and alcohol (some having residual effects or "half life" of varying duration etc), etc. do.


I like to drive fast in some circumstances - safely (that's why I own a Fireblade 929) and safely but slower at other times (why I still have a Pathfinder Diesel...)

Its a matter of skills, adjusting to conditions etc.

Societies develop with the advent and development of infrastructure allowing the movement of goods and people with increased speed to cover larger distances. That's a historical fact.

Making Australians drive 100 or 110 or somebody-kill-me-now 80 on stretches of road that sometimes have 4 or 5 lanes when we KNOW we have long distances to travel by the very nature of the country is insane. Driving at 100 bores me to tears and causes me to want to have a snooze...bring on auto drive systems, i cant wait.
Therefore slow speeds CAN kill to IMO. In fact, i think our benevolent governement also knows that...that's why they tell you to stop every 2 hours to have a break. Let me tell you, for the average person, tired after a day's work and not psyched for the task, 2 hours of sustained attention is unrealistic...they should have said "take a break every 45 minutes, every 15 if you've ever watched MTV...) but that would be too obviously disruptive (and imaging the amount of nagging drivers would get from some backseat drivers...)

The Japanese are like the Germans (in many ways it seems...) They DONT TOLERATE drink driving AT ALL. night after night you see the "salary man" and other business people drinking to excess (thought that's a debate for somewhere else- they often don't drink that much but the social demands lead them to often act drunker than they really are...anyways i'll leave this one for another time).

Many drink every night and it doesn't cross their mind to do anything but have a driver arranged or take a cab. (and yes, i lived there for nearly a year so i know first hand)

In my opinion we need:
Less nanny state
better roads or at least better sections of roads
Less mindless revenue raising speeding ticketing systems
tougher DUI penalties
a more intense driver training system and related exams.
a multi-tier rego/safety check system
a multi-tiered driver class and rego system.

the multi tier system would allow you to have say 3 classes of driver license and 3 categories of rego.

a)basic safety of vehicle and basic driver licence : drive on roads in lanes designated for normal speeds (100, etc)

b) higher range driver class and vehicle safety rego: the car is checked more thoroughly, you must pass a tougher driving exam. You can drive in designated lanes at higher speeds (say 130-140). Drink drive and the penalties are more severe than in class a) above. Break the speed limit allowed or accepted maneuvering (as taught in classes) and suffer penalties. This class is a privilege

c) highest class drivers license and rego: car passes top testing (like the Germans) and your training and testing is higher quality.:
you can drive in special lanes in sections of roads that have been approved for it (or upgraded) at speeds similar to the autobahn.

Any drink driving of any kind for highest class drivers- go to jail, do not pass Go, no get-out-of -jail cards (including former judges). Drive like a moron contravening accepted maneuvers as taught etc and suffer consequences. This class is a privilege.

Lose either class B or C and you don't get a chance to earn it again for a few years.

The tier system can only be implemented in stretches of road so designated.

I believe the government still has its mechanism to earn extra money from fines, we get more control and freedom.

its a win win

frank

[dpastern]

I guarantee that it would be. Again, as I said in a previous thread many months ago, if you want to grant unlimited speed conditions, then cars as they currently are, are not safe enough to deal with high speed impacts.

Peter - if you're doing 100km/h you're travelling roughly 30 metres per second. 200km/h, that's 60 metres or so, per second. Your reaction speeds must be a lot better to deal with the faster speeds. So should your eyesight. Yes, you are correct, in a perfect world, only those with the necessary abilities would drive fast. Sadly, in the real world, take away speed limits, and you will get those 'drongos' driving far faster than they are really capable of.

Tell the widow and family of a guy killed by someone speeding and crashing into them; or a mother who's lost a child due to someone speeding that it's cos the driver was a drongo, and see how far you'll get with them. That excuse won't cut mustard I'm afraid. Try it, see how far you'll get, and see what sort of reactions you'll get. I bet it won't be very pretty. As my dad always has said - "speed thrills, speed kills".

Very few drivers on our roads have the abilities of skills of a professional racing driver. The cars are VASTLY different too - high performance gearboxes and braking systems, roll cages, larger tyres with far more grip, better car balance for high speed corners, so on and so forth. Most drivers on the roads have little idea of cornering, balance of the car, power drifting, lines through corners, so on and so forth. They have little conceptual understandering of complex handling issues like understeer and oversteer (it is very easy to confuse the 2 to be honest). No - keep racing speeds for the racetrack, and normal, reasonable travellign speeds for the ordinary citizen. There is absolutely no need to go faster than the current speed limits. None whatsoever.

As an aside, our average road is far, far, far different to the Autobahn. My dad was born in Germany, lived in Germany for a number of years before emigrating to Australia, and that's his take on the subject.

Dave

[dpastern]

then, and I'll be quite frank (pun not intended), you shouldn't be driving imho. Driver concentration should be the same at any given speed, period.

I think many on this thread are over bold in their driving abilities. Just because you can drive fast does not make you a good driver.

Anyways, I've said my bits, I have nothing more to say.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

How? On what basis? The stats are there autobahns are 10x safer. If the Germans can do it, why can't we put similar systems in place?



Good for him. When did he leave? the early 1960's??

I was in Germany only last year, my observation was there are many roads in Oz on a par with Autobahns which could easily take 140-150km traffic. I am not suggesting open slather, many can't.

People like yourself equate only speed as being maniacal and unsafe.

I see this as simplistic, as the German experience shows, driving at speed can be very safe. If speed alone was "unsafe" here every October there would be a bloodbath at the Bathurst 1000.

BTW If you find driving at a decent clip scary, maybe you need to take an advanced driving course (I have and recommend every driver should as well).

Speed also needs to be appropriate....there are many circumstances where the posted limit is too fast.

Training drivers to know the difference seems sensible to me, but sadly is not in the Stay-Safe Committee's mantra.

Rather than learn from the German model, our dim Oz bureaucrats are lazy and would rather bubble wrapping everything plus provide a nice revenue raising stream for their political masters.....

[mithrandir]

Move a couple of hundred Km north. You will have annual inspections, including among other things all lights, tread depth and deceleration (braking) tests.

There are some exemptions for vehicles less than 5 years old, but it does not apply to all of them - eg anything with a tare weight over 2000 Kg.

[DJDD]

maybe I am being overly critical of Australians but perhaps we cannot implement similar systems to those in Germany simply because we are rude, inconsiderate drivers. perhaps the "dim" bureaucrats know this? (hey, gotta give the pollies and public servants a wrap sometimes).


ok, lets' start...
- the first thing that could be improved in Melbourne would be to ensure that drivers do not run red lights.

- what do we do to stop this?
educate people?
or hit them where it hurts by fining them. this option seems the best way to get through to people.

- so, how to we catch the people running red lights?
put in speed cameras at EVERY light.

- what is the consequence?
a lot of people complaining about revenue raising and australia becoming a "nanny state".

even though this may be the most effective way to stop that particular problem.

we have to recognise that there is a problem first and face the consequences. that is, short term pain so that our children can grow up driving with higher speed limits on the roads... :P

[spearo]

That's a rather bold statement in and of itself, how do you know my driving abilities or the skills of any of the others posting on the topic?

Beside, it isn't the point.

The point is Australia is supposed to be the clever country isn't it?

Wouldn't it be a real clever thing to do to study the particular issue and determine what would truly improve the situation. At least start from a hypothesis and test it out?

Instead all I hear are emotive arguments. Yes of course its terrible that people die, its terrible that people plough into other innocent people etc. Emotive statements wont help us think through, devise and progress a better system...they'll just lead to a "scare campain" like so many others and the usual simple solutions politicians can get through that the masses wont be too anxious about. "reduce all speeds by 10 or 20 KM/hours because we "know" speed kills" and report the first noted downward trend and you'll have the population voting for you again.

That doesn't mean that its the best balanced system.

I suspect that if we did have a new system that taught drivers and tested them properly, that could be evaluated.

If there was a trial of a new tier system, that too could be evaluated.

What I think of my driving abilities is not relevant to the analysis of the issues and the proposal of a potential better model. One that could even be tested. I'd rather have a logical approach to addressing the issue as apposed to one based on emotive scare campaining...

And in the fullness of time, should such a trial occurs and i go for my top class license and the system finds my vehicle isn't up to scratch or I cant pass the test (theory and practice of course) then the system would be shown to be effective and I shouldn't drive any faster than whatever class license i get.

Rather than leaving it to me to guess my driving abilities, why not introduce a system that tests this?

You pass, you get access/permission to drive faster on approved roads. Noone has a real problem with Police or Ambulance driving fast. "they get better driver training" some might think. Exactly right. Let people have the option to get that training too and benefit from it on roads designed for it and in vehicles inspected to ensure it can be done safely.

frank

[DJDD]

I like the idea of testing a hypothesis based on research, however, since all public policy decisions are just hypotheses when do you see this ever happening in a way that does not result in a government being thrown out because they may have got it wrong?

[Miaplacidus]

Oh, still going, I see.

I would be interested to hear the opinions of people whose job it is to scrape dead people off the roads. Surely they would have some interesting things to say about the common causes. A bit of science would be good, too, I agree, but just chanting "autobahn, autobahn" won't persuade many, methinks.

Also, no one seems to have acknowledged something basic about humans. Namely, our self-conceit when it comes to assessing our own abilities. Many studies have demonstrated that 70%+ of individuals surveyed state that their driving ability is "above average". (Note, this isn't actually impossible, if one accepts that each person is free to determine what constitutes "good driving".)

For me, I look for the same qualities in a driver as I do in a surgeon. That is, someone with a good reputation and a patient and methodical nature, someone who doesn't operate unless they have to, who performs enough procedures to remain skilled, who knows his limitations and is prepared to ask for help, who avoids operating when tired, who plans where they are going and puts themselves in the ideal position well in advance, but is also prepared for unexpected detours and side trips, and knows what to do in a sudden emergency. Someone who remains calm in a crisis. Someone who is prepared to say "No, I won't do that." Efficiency, yes, but speed for speed's sake is only idiotic. (Speed was only a virtue in the days before anaesthesia.) Small hands are a definite plus. (Well, maybe scratch that last one...)

[spearo]

That's a very good point. It's especially valid in our current environment of "knee-jerk" policy making (remember the few that used a green laser pointer...)

I think it would be realistic to introduce the change progressively.
For example.

Sa there is a well travelled piece of road, pretty straight, between two major points.

The government in power could introduce a new campain to improve driving skills.

TV ads with professional, responsible drivers like Polce and Ambos, Firemen etc showing that a particular driving program really enhanced their skills and makes them better drivers, especially since they now understand their limitations and dangers better etc..

The gov wishes to introduce a new driving class/rego system based on research from around the world (let the spin doctors do it, they can sell you anything...including increased taxes because the sky is falling...or is it the Ozone layer that has a hole in it ....no wait, its global warming or whatever...

from whatever Date the Government would sponsor X percentage of the cost of the driving course for X number of people in a particular region.
to enter you cant have been convicted of x, y or z offenses in te past (ie filter out the yahoos).

a bit of a TV campain to explain the new rules, drivers with class X will have priority usage of the lanes (indicated with signs say blue zone ahead or whatever.
You must not use this lane between whatever hours etc...

These drivers will have stringent tests done on the vehicles and be allowed to a max speed of 130 where it was previously 110.

That wont be much of a stretch, how many people have you ever seen do 110 in a 110 zone...

this new system will be reviewed in a few months etc etc...

demonstrate later the analysis of the benefits. Responsible people drive responsibly and dont cause crashes.

expand the program either in coverage (across more places) or in scope (different classes including a new one allowing up to 150 in designated places by people with other class (see my previous post re tier system idea)

I think like many things, when it comes to change management much of it is in the communication strategy utilized.

just a thought
frank

[DJDD]

i like this approach. I would vote for it.





of course, with enough debate here we will solve every problem...
:lol:

[Lumen Miner]

Sorry Peter, I'm going to jump on the band wagon.

Your points are not only irrelevant, they are non-sensical.

You are clearly binding your whole POV on German autobahn statistics. These statistics are irrelevant in an ultimate conclusion on the subject. You are correct, speed does not kill on an Autobahn. That however has nothing to do, with concluding that "speed" does not kill.

How does taking the example of high grade / quality roads, designed for high speed, with unique equipped preformance vehicle usage, equate itself in respect to our Australian situation? It does not and I really can not see for the life of me, where you are coming from.

We have low quality roads, intersections, people not use to such speeds, dodgy clapped out old cars which can barely make the current speed limits and pedestrian traffic. If you add speed, you do indeed dull reaction times. Any debating of that is just obsurd.


In a theoretical world or your Autobahn example, no speed does not kill.
I would like to hear though however, how you would relate that to the comment "Speed does not kill" in general. With or without "drongos" on the road, people make mistakes, hell even I make mistakes. Speed increases the likelihood of a crash, not only that, it exponentially increases damage. Reminds me of the old fall back that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". If the gun / speed was never there, then there is a whole lot less chance of someone being killed in the first place.

Your comment about a pedestrian and a mack is just cannon fodder, it has no relevance either.

[Peter Ward]

I figured it wouldn't be long before these tired old arguments were wheeled out.

You have totally misinterpreted my position, and made statements that patently are false.

There are dual carriageway sections on the Hume & Pacific Hwys, Goldcoast freeway etc. that are truly world class with no intersections.

Doing 110km/hr on these excellent roads ignores the performance and secondary safety built into many modern vehicles. Journey times can be significantly reduced, less driver fatigue from chugging along with the gaggle, etc.

Suggesting, say a S-class Benz owner, must be slowed as there is a clapped out Morris also using the road I find absurd. (& oddly quite Australian)

Assuming everyone has clapped out cars is false (mine certainly are not! ) and of those that drive rubbish, far more rigorous registration laws would quickly fix that issue.

Pedestrians have no place on 110km/hr freeways.

Speed itself does not kill.....even at currently "acceptable" speeds, any number of human factors can lead to an impact which most likely could have been avoided if these factors alone were finally & seriously addressed in Oz rather than the "(only) speed kills" mantra.

[Astro78]

Interesting bare with me....



Again that's great ;) (I would if I could too btw Peter)

So you're in a life preserving cocoon, is everybody you love in these cars too?

[Astro78]

Early last year, was enroute from Rome to Pompeii in a little but torque' diesel. I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH RISK IN MY LIFE and I do not drive slow. One of 50 shockers we saw in a half day drive - ok I was in the fast lane accidentally, the Italian police actually tapped our rear at 160km+ to say 'please speed up or move lanes'...I still laugh at the uniformed cop in the back with a ciggy and one leg fully out the back window.

The only positive I have to say on their roads was that truckies must use the slow lane 24/7.

[Peter Ward]

I insisted that both my kids have at least airbags and ABS in their (not expensive) cars. Good tyres/brakes/shocks mandatory. My car has all of the above then some, however secondary safety is just that. Secondary.

Appropriate speed, driving predictability, anticipation & situational awareness, driving well rested and un-drugged has kept this black duck free of collisions for 30+ years. And yes, I "speed" (at least by kindergarten Oz standards) in Germany.

[Peter Ward]

This needs addressing...and some pretty damming local statistics were in the Sydney Morning Herald recently.

"In the first two years of the 130km/h limit, the (Northern) territory's toll leapt alarmingly *above* the last of the open-slather years,

from 35 deaths in 2004,
55 in 2005 and 44 in 2006 to 57 in 2007
followed by a tragic jump last year to 75 fatalities – the worst for 21 years"

Is this also irrelevant?

[Astro78]

So what was the speed limit before the tragic jump in 21 years?

Why do I have the feeling you'll be a 'lawmaker' soon, Peter? If you don't practise law, i'll wash one of your son's cars, here, just PM me. be honest :P

[CometGuy]

Here are the Northern Territory road death toll statistics, filtered on 130+unlimited speed limit (i.e the road/s in question) for the past years. Note how deaths have dropped markedly since the open speed limit was removed.

Basic Physics tells us:
- Impact Energy increases as a square of speed.
- Braking effort to stop also increases as near the square of speed.
- Reaction times become proportionally more critical as speed increases.

T.

[Lumen Miner]

Interesting comparison... :question:

[DJDD]

:rofl:
i can just picture my dad...

[DJDD]

where did CometGuy and PeterWard get their statistics?
they are quite different... I think there is a saying about this...:)

[Miaplacidus]

Anything to get the riff-raff off our main roads. I mean, what are B roads for, if not for B-grade drivers with their B-grade cars. And they breed like catholics. Seriously, am I the only one who wishes the government would declare an amnesty so that we can finally just shoot these people? Back in India, when the tigers thinned out, it was considered nothing to have a shot at a native or two. And running them down leaves such an icky mess. Besides which, you seldom get a specimen fit enough to mount in the trophy room.

[Astro78]

:screwy:

hope you're feeling alright down there.

[Peter Ward]

Humm.... Lies, dammed lies and statistics.

http://www.roadsafety.nt.gov.au/transport/safety/road/stats/index.shtml

There is not doubting vehicle energy and reaction times are more important when traveling at speed. But the assumption....... that you are bound to impact something simply because you are traveling at speed.....I believe we have got wrong.

Well regulated high speed environments (eg aviation) are remarkably safe.
Asking why might be a good start....

[Miaplacidus]

Yes, fine, just a bit cheesed that someone scratched the Hummer. Had to take the Silver Cloud out instead. (The runabout beemer's at the shop; too much blood in the air filter...) And Westerley's dropped dead, selfish blighter, so I've had to make do with Basil, who's not nearly as good a chauffeur, and objects mightily to Lady Markham's sexual advances.

[Peter Ward]

The was no speed limit on open roads in the Territory prior to 2006.

That said, they have a penchant for not wearing seat belts, running red lights and drunk driving.... :doh:

[Astro78]

Good for you and your children Peter ;) - what about say the single mum who simply doesn't have that luxury?

totally missed the humour on previous post there Miaplacidus :thumbsup:

[Peter Ward]

Pulling my chain eh?

Let me put it this way..when I was at Uni (= very low income) I rode a motocycle. When I first got the bike, I needed a helmet. There were cheaper generic ones, and some rather nice...plus quite a bit more expensive... full face Shoei's.

The salesman said...What's your head worth?

A bought the Shoei. I'm sure single mum's can make their own choices. ;)

[AstralTraveller]

The comments by the SMH columist about the NT crash statistics appears to be a case of selectively picking stats to suit an argument. He implies that the road toll has risen because of the introduction of a speed limit. Looking around yesterday I saw a comment to the effect that there had been no increase in accidents on the sections of road onto which a speed limit had been placed. Sorry but I've lost the reference. :doh:. However the numbers in the "Road Deaths Australia 2008 Statistical Summary" (pg 22) support this view. The increase in deaths 2007-2008 for areas with limits 100 or above was 3.4% while the increase where limits are below 100 was 106.3%. The same comparison for the period 2003-2008 were 1.5% and 16.7% respectively. Sadly the NT is still the worst performing of the 8 states and territories mentioned in the report.

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/rsr_04.aspx

It seems intuitive to me that non-urban roads should be safer that city streets. Unfortunatly for me the stats in that report (though not corrected for vehicle kilometres) don't support my assumption. However there is no distinction between good expressways and tarred goat tracks with a 100kmh limit (and we have plenty of them). Perhaps the reason for the high death toll in 100+ zones is related to the shockingly high number of single-vehicle accidents. I can sort of imaging hitting another car but it has been so long since I even got close to losing control of a car that I can't fathom how over 600 people per year can die this way.

If we look at fatalities per vehicle kilometer amongst OECD nations we find that Germany is only marginally better performing than Australia. The best performing nation last year was Iceland but that was an anomoly - their figures fluctuate widely. The consistantly best performed nation was Great Britian. Could it be that the poms are doing something right? I doubt it but it is worth investigating ;). (Any poms want to comment?)

http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/safety/publications/2009/rsr_05.aspx

Proponents of increased or no speed limits make much of the virtues of flow control and I can see their point. Having vehicles travelling at very different speeds on the same road is always a problem. And not just a high speeds (eg bicycles and pedestrians don't mix well on shared use cycleways). So, what is the vehicle and speed mix on an autobahn? Are trucks allowed and how fast do they go? How long are the high speed sections and how often do vehicles have to transit to a lower speed area? I'm just rying to get a feel for how comparable our expressways and highways are to the autobahns.

[Peter Ward]

Wiki is so cool. For those who want a bit of a read...

The German autobahn network is patrolled by the Autobahnpolizei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahnpolizei) (Autobahn police) in marked and unmarked police vehicles, some equipped with video cameras. This practice allows the enforcement of laws (tailgating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailgating), for example) which are often viewed in other countries as difficult to prove in court. Notable laws include the following:


Autobahns in Austria and Germany may only be used by motor vehicles that are designed to achieve a maximum speed exceeding 60 km/h (Switzerland: 80 km/h).
The right lane must be used when it is free (Rechtsfahrgebot), and the left lane is generally intended for passing manoeuvres only. Drivers using the left lane when the other lanes are free may be fined by autobahn police.
Overtaking on the right (undertaking (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undertaking_%28driving%29)) is forbidden, except in traffic jams where it may be practiced with caution. The fact that the car overtaken is illegally occupying the left-hand lane is not an acceptable excuse. In these cases the police will routinely stop and fine both drivers.
Not allowing faster cars to overtake one's own car if the traffic situation allows it (e.g. by occupying the left-hand lane for a longer period of time) may be considered coercion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion).[/URL]
In case of a traffic jam, the drivers must form an emergency lane to ensure emergency services can reach the scene of a possible accident. This lane must be formed between the left lane and the lane next to the left lane (i.e., between the two leftmost lanes).
It is unlawful for a driver to stop his or her vehicle on the road for any reason except in an emergency or situations where stopping is unavoidable, such as being involved in a collision. This includes stopping on emergency lanes. The law also applies if a vehicle runs out of fuel when the incidence could of been prevented.
It is also unlawful to turn around or back up on the Autobahn under any circumstances. Doing so is punishable under criminal law.
The distance between vehicles (in metres) should be at least half the speed (in km/h) at all times (e.g. at least 60 metres at 120 km/h). This corresponds to a "lead time" of just under 2 seconds. Again, the fact that the car in front is illegally occupying the left-hand lane when the right-hand lane is free does not excuse following too closely. Fines for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailgating"]tailgating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#cite_note-Kotz-12) were increased in May 2006. At speeds of over 100 km/h, keeping less than 30 percent of the recommended distance now results in the suspension of one's driving licence for one to three months.
The German legal regulations (Straßenverkehrsordnung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic#rules_of_the_road)) explicitly allow drivers to honk or flash headlights shortly in order to indicate intention of overtaking.[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#cite_note-13) Obtrusive behaviour of the potentially overtaking car, such as constantly flashing headlights or driving at insufficient distances for a longer period of time is illegal and may be prosecuted as coercion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion). This may also apply to drivers not allowing faster cars to overtake their car if the traffic situation allows it (e.g. by occupying the left-hand lane for a longer period of time).[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#cite_note-Kotz-12)
Tires must be approved for the vehicle's top speed. Tires for lower speeds (i.e., cheaper than high-speed tires) are only allowed if they are marked as Winter tires (M+S or M/S). In this case the driver must have a sticker in the windshield as a reminder of the maximum speed.


All pretty sensible stuff IMO!

[renormalised]

Just thinking here (about minimum safe separation distances), for a Veyron, at the speeds they'd do on an autobahn, the minimum safe distance would probably be half a mile!!!!:P:P:D:D

[mithrandir]

I can't comment on autobahns, but every truck I've seen on my trips in Europe has a rondel on the back listing its maximum permitted speed (maybe two - one for "A" roads and one for lesser roads), and must keep right at all times (except I guess when overtaking trucks with lower limits).

[Astro78]

Yes, yes it is, IMO too - your quoted wiki post

While I do want to commandeer much of your belongings and hand out to the needy (only because I know you earnt it through hard work and of course raising our living standards), I respect you alot for arguing alone for your beliefs.

So good luck, but not too much ;)

with an odd respect, astro

Update: forgot to add - an elitist system will never work in a country that relies so heavily on exporting raw minerals, such as Australia. Germany and much of europe, knock yourself out

[Davros]

At the end of the day government legislates for the lowest common denominator. Fatigue is an enormous factor in crashes and i dont see many Australian with the requisite skill or suitable mentality to drive at high speeds even if the vehicles are capable of it. Remember the best car in the world is only as good as its maintenance. And when the typical family puts $90 tyres on their Audi and never bothers servicing it or paying attention to brakes etc. we have problems. Australians are also fantastic at tailgating and lack of indicating.