And you thought Oz Astro-retailers were bad...

[Peter Ward]

You're going to love this...below is my final correspondence with a local car performance chip ECU supplier:

I reprogram Gemini EPROMS here in Oz, the chips cost around $40 each.

So these guys are charging locally $A1950 for the chip "content"....I was not happy paying nearly twice the price locally, hence figured I'd simply pick up a pair of chips on my next trip to LAX...the thinly veiled tantrum below has me bemused.... and totally killed my interest in dealing with them.

----- Original Message -----
From: Oz powerchip
To: Peter Ward
Cc: USA agent 1, USA Agent 2
Sent: Friday, October 02, 2009 12:38 PM
Subject: re[2]: Sales information from Powerchip!



Travis and Jeremy, The customer below may attempt to contact you about his Ferrari 348.
Before ANY 348 upgrades are supplied by Powerchip USA in the next year, even to resellers, please email me for authorisation to supply.
In addition, please make up a contact for him and place an alert on it
regards
Wayne

----------------------- Original Message -----------------------

From: "Peter Ward"
To: "Powerchip Sales"
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:20:03 +1000
Subject: Re: Sales information from Powerchip!

Dear Chris,

Citing "Australian conditions" as a reason for charging nearly double (at
recent Forex rates, $A1150 vs $A1990) doesn't wash well with me.


I travel to the USA 2-3 times a month, many of my Ferrari spares I
purchase while I'm there.


Different country, but the same part and half the price (often even less)

Sorry, I won't be purchasing a Powerchip here

Sincerely
Peter Ward

[astroron]

You shouldn't have told them Peter:(
There must be some legal redress in restriction of trade, or something along those lines:shrug:
You may have to try Europe instead:thumbsup:

[telecasterguru]

Peter,

I know exactly where you are coming from. The sheer hide of some people. I also know that we have been down this path before but the current issue of Astronomy magazine has the Celestron CGEM 1100 HD at $3499US plus delivery and taxes.

Even at $500 for these charges it works out to be around $4600AU at the current exchange rate. Would be nice.

Frank

[sheeny]

Free market? What free market? Market competition?

The fact that you have the opportunity to operate in the world market rather than just the aussie one clearly poses a threat and has exposed non-competitive market behaviour.

Al.

[toryglen-boy]

Peter, i guess if you drive a car with the prancing pony they think you have more money than sense!

;)


Last year i had to go to Wagga for some business, i went into the local pub, and was charged over $10 for a schoona (sp?) when the guy standing right next to me was charged $3 !!

i emptied my glass, "refill?" enquired the barhand, "not at those prices i said, or do you always charge anyone who hasnt got an Australian accent over 3 times the price?"


:P

[dpastern]

Place the order with the US and if they give you a hard time, threaten to take legal action. There is no legal reason for them restricting trade. If the local Aussie retailer wants to be a ****wit and overcharge at rip off prices, that's his own fault.

Dave

[Peter Ward]

What has me tossed is you can mail a set of EPROMS across the Pacific for around $15.00...infact you don't even have to do that, the EPROM code can be e-mailed. ( BTW shipping on big telescope mounts can cost....a PME runs about $US1100 with Fedex.....I digress.... )

Suffice to say, their antics made sure I'd go elsewhere

[allan gould]

Pete
If I were you I would just get your wife to purchase it from the States and let them go suck if they have put your name on some sort of "black-list"

[TrevorW]

I recently had some books sent to me from the US through Amazon shipping cost per book was $15

I wanted to order a small package item in Oz from a online store they wanted $19 for p&h

I've sent reigtered packages myself for unedr $10 through AP

I wanted to buy a small bottle of Eclipse Fluid in the US $8 here $30
WTF

I'm sick and tied of how ripped off we are in this country and find often it's cheaper to buy OS than locally

[dugnsuz]

Sad but true Trevor - someone's economy is getting stimulated and it ain't ours!
Doug

[DavidU]

Pete, is yours a Bosch Motronic 2.5 or 2.7 injection system?

[ngcles]

Hi Peter,

I wouldn't be happy with that treatment either mate but as Ron said earlier, you were a very silly sausage for telling them where you intended to go to buy it and why.

But I digress ...

The title of this thread --

"And you though(t) Oz Astro-retailers were bad..."

forces me to make one observation and ask another question ...

(1) I don't think Oz Astro-retailers are bad

(2) Aren't you an Oz astro-retailer? :shrug:


Best,

Les D

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Peter,
Try MCL Motors in Vancouver Canada. Thy're the local Porsche / Ferrari consessionaires. Upgraded EMS chip for my 964; Local-$2230, MCL-Ca$785 (at the time about Oz$850)!!

Re; Telescopes. Its double BS with an extra dose of BS filling with BS on the side. CA$ is not worth much more than the Oz$ yet Canadians still pay the same rate-adjusted price as Americans. Celestron & Meade are full of it. Don't complain - Just don't buy! Boycott both! If you're gonna pay stupid prices for a compound scope,you might as well go Intes Micro:thumbsup:

Kudos though to Televue & Takahashi which work out to roughly the same price in $US / $Oz and retailers bear the same expenses.

[Peter Ward]

Irony Les, Irony....(a form of humor :) )... for the record, no I don't think Asto- retailers are bad.....more a case of these guys taking the cake.

Yes I guess I was naive....what was I thinking?! ...using my real name and all :)

[mental4astro]

Just a little one from today:

5metre USB cable extension: in OZ, $24.99, from HK, $8.99 delivered to my door!! Go figure

[Outbackmanyep]

Well....nobody is in business to lose money are they??

[marki]

Peter perhaps you should bite the bullet and buy a fully programable aftermarket ECU like an autronics or motec. We ran them for years in road race cars and never had a single problem, not once. That way you could change the tune of the car to suit your own purpose e.g. road, hill climbs/targa/track days etc. The maps once set can be stored and replaced easily.

Mark

[TrevorW]

No exactly but what you have because of a limited market, is a limited number of suppliers who have limited competition and therefore they think they can charge what they like.

Remember when buying OS we are still paying retail prices not wholesale.

It has been proven that even telescopes that are advertised locally for $3000 can be purchased direct and arrive landed under $1000 (one argues about the warranty issue which unless something is drastically wrong is a mute point as we still have to pay P&H to return products for warranty work in WA as most of my purchases have been ex East)

I for one are not complaining about reasonable markups but profiteering (ie: one who seeks to exact exorbitant profits as by taking advantage of public necessity) is my gripe and unfortunately it's indicative throughout the retail industry in this country take Coles, Woolworths, Bonds and numerous other Australian companies that source products from overseas at the expense of local manufactures and suppliers.

Furthermore ever heard of Simplot if not look them up, they nearly bankrupted a local farming community (putting 300 people out of work) in the SW of WA when they realised they could buy potatoes landed 1 cent a kg cheaper from NZ than the local supplier.

No nobody is is business to lose money but there are moral and ethical issues at stake here and as consumers we are often apathetic too our own plight.

[marki]

Trevor that's exactly why I purchase most my astro stuff OS. They get it here faster then most of the eastern states mob and it is cheaper... I just ordered a set of 2" LRGB filters from OPT costing $600 AU including shipping. Same filters here are sold for $1000 + shipping. Hmmm must be a big warranty risk me thinks...not.

Mark

[telecasterguru]

Further to my previous email, advertised Astronomy US magazine September 09 page 72, Celestron CGE Pro Fastar compatible $8898.95. Same scope from a Sydney dealer currently advertised Recommended Retail Price $34,999AU.
How can this be? Ridiculous!

Frank

[Outbackmanyep]

When it comes to MONEY morals and ethics go out the window.....and unfortunately Peter has been confronted with a nasty one!

[Starkler]

Devils advocate here :hi:

Could it be that a chip for Australia is a different item due to fuel differences etc requiring a premium to recoup extraordinary development costs over a small volume of sales?

[DavidU]

I think you are right. I have seen a few maps that vary from Aust to US. Fuel is different(more so in years gone by) emissions are different.
Also the cams and compression ra may be different as well as ambient temp ranges. Just a thought

[marki]

All the more reason to go with a fully programmable system. In my experience most pre-programmed chips leave a lot to be desired espeacially some of those from the major Japanese tunning houses. All motors are different even those made by Ferrari and should be treated as such. It is possible to have two identically equipped motors running the same specs, fuel and map producing very different figures on the dyno. I have seen this a number of times and these motors cost about 80K.

Mark

[DavidU]

I was going to build a Megasquirt system for my 280zx. Great to program.

[FredSnerd]

This one tops the cake in my book:

In the USA a Meade 12” LX90-ACF is US$3300 (AUD$3791)
In the USA a Celestron CPC 1100 XLT is US$2800 (AUD$3220). That is, in the US the Celestron is US$500 cheaper.

And when the scopes land is Australia: The Meade 12” LX90-ACF is AUD$5200 and the Celestron CPC 1100 XLT is AUD$6999. That is, the Celestron is now AUD$1800 more expensive. How the ********&%#@ does that happen?

Is there any reason why we cant form an IIS purchasing group. Every 6 months or so we put in our international orders shipped over in one consignment. I bet the Australian suppliers would start doing something about their prices quick smart.

[marki]

Most the stuff I did was on a fully bombed WRX setup for road race (WA champs 5 years running, 3rd in the nationals :)). The tunning was done by a kiwi bloke who used to work for the Maclaren/mercedes F1 team. He runs a race shop here in Perth and really knows his stuff. The motors never blew no matter how badly they were treated.


Mark

[TrevorW]

Could he tune my Toyota Camry V6 :P

[stephenb]

Sorry Claude, but this gets raised almost monthly here on IIS, seriously, monthly. Every man and his dog has a whine about local prices, then it all goes away.

In regards to your bulk Overseas IIS purchasing Group:

1. Who's going to arrange it? Take the money? make the orders? Pickup the goods?

2. I certainly wouldn't be in it, because I always buy local to support the local dealers who offer support to local astronomers.

3. Does everyone keep forgetting abour warranty???? Meade and Celestron:

(a) DO NOT pay local dealers for warranty repairs so that aspect is factored into their prices.

(b) DO NOT have international warranties.

4. There are other costs built into the local price besides just making a profit.

5. and shame on the local dealers for make a profit :eyepop: With this country being 1/10th of the USA, one could easily say that their is at least 1/10th of the scopes sold, probably even less. If the local dealers didn't cover costs and make a profit, they probably wouldn't exist.

If people here are so annoyed at local prices, why don't they actually ring up the local dealers and complain? I bet no one does?

Why did this thread degrad from Peter's original genuine thread, to another thread criticising local dealers and prices?

[kinetic]

And some of us can even program EPROMS ;)

Steve

[marki]

Quite frankly Stephan I couldn't care less if all the ozzie dealers went out of business tommorrow. At least it would mean unfair trading rules set by companies such as meade and celestron would go and we could all obtain gear at fair prices. Why? Because we would stop being part of that tiny market which appears to work so strongly against us and is always used as an excuse to set stupid prices. We would be part of the larger US market and that would mean better pricing. As for warranty I have only claimed once in the past 20 years so for me it is a non-event. Paying several thousand dollars more for the same scope is ridiculous. Through the internet the world has become a much smaller place. Sitting at home I can access all the same products (and then some) as the local sellers have on their shelves. I am not so lazy that I cannot click the mouse on the item I want for myself after all isn't that all they do?

Mark

[Peter Ward]

The F348 ECU constantly adapts (albeit slowly) to the engine parameters, hence they are not as "hard wired" as you'd think for an EPROM based system.

I've researched the whole business further, and it seems hyperflow cats and aftermarket exhaust will do all the chip guys can do, and them some, plus the sound will bring a smile to any "revheads" dial. :)

[marki]

There are always other options Peter but if you are after really serious increases the programmable ECU is the only way to base your mods. I would steer clear of pre - programmed chips (even those that pretend to learn, webber marrelli system I am guessing) as they are always overly expensive and mess up the torque and power curves (shift them) somtimes making the car a complete pig to drive. With some intelligent tunning and a few extra bits and pieces you can have your cake and eat it so to speak. We managed to get 320kw and 750nm torque out of a 2.0 litre 4 cylinder motor that ran untouched (except servicing) for 3 seasons. We did not extract more horse power through revs as the mechanical integrity of the EJ 20 bottom end is very dubious (they go bang easily) but worked hard on increasing torque through setting up the turbo (2.0 bar boost) and mapping (1 litre of fuel /km on song). The car was an absolute beast and when you floored it, it sounded like a VW on steriods. Flooring it at 120km/Hr in 5th had all 4 wheels spinning :D. 0 - 100 in about 3.5 seconds.

Mark

[Waxing_Gibbous]

Peter,
Try this chap:
www.videos.streetfire.net/video/Most-incredible-working_95679.htm (http://www.videos.streetfire.net/video/Most-incredible-working_95679.htm)
He was at Goodwood about 9 years ago. Hecould probably fix you up good & proper :)

[dpastern]

yeah I know. It's really ridiculous :( Good luck!

Dave

PS I wish I had a Ferrari!

[dpastern]

Well, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if you give free market reign to business, this is what will [mostly] happen. Governments like it because higher prices means more taxes, so there's on incentive of keeping the buggers honest. I've already had this run in with the ACCC over Microsoft Vista - at the time of launch it was going for US $359, and with the Aussie dollar being at like 96c at the time (from memory, I could be wrong), the converted rate (which I do remember) was $540. Microsoft Australia wanted to charge a RRP of $799...I pointed this out to the ACCC and told them that it was price fixing and I was told that it isn't price fixing, and that they can charge whatever price they like. My oh my...that's the last time I'll ever trust the ACCC.

Dave

[dpastern]

There's (imho) a difference between being in business to make money, and being just outright greedy.

Dave

[TrevorW]

Aynone notice how the price pf PS3's has suddently dropped and you can get more for your buck bet you another one's coming out soon at some ridculously marked up priced compared to the US

[dpastern]

That's a VERY good question. Even allowing for the US/Aus $ rate conversion, that's AU $10400. And remember, that US 9k is retail, inc. taxes. Let's drop that price to the wholesale price, remove taxes. Now factor in the $ rate conversion, add shipping, add import duty, add GST. Factor in a local warranty cost that's *reasonable* and I BET it still falls a LOT short of that current Aussie price.

I'll give Bintel that - as the Aussie dollar improved, they dropped their prices. Kudos to them.

Dave

edit: Oh, and for warranty, and price factoring, etc, most warranties are 1 year. Goods are generally well enough manufactured these days to last a year with a very small failure rate, as the MTTF is usually 5-10 years, if not longer. So, the percentage of people claiming warranty issues within the warranty period is very low, and therefore, the costs involved in providing warranty fixes is also small. I'd like to see statistics on the number of say, Celestron scopes or Meade scopes that are sold, and what percentage fail within the warranty period, and what the average cost of repair is. I think you'll find that few fail within the warranty, and the majority that do, have small failures that are both easy, and cheap to fix. Even factoring in the small percentage of units that fail with costly repairs, I personally believe that we'll see that the inflated Aussie prices are just that - inflated.

As an aside - I find it interesting that even though the Aussie dollar is weak against the Japanese Yen, we can get similar prices for Tak gear here in Australia, as they do in the US. Mathematics would dictate that the cost for Tak and other Japanese gear should be markedly higher than in the US as our dollar is weaker vs the Yen than the US dollar is. That tells me that local Tak dealers take a cut on their profits I suspect. Tak gear seems to be very good value for money imho and I can't wait to get a Tak one day :)

[GeoffW1]

Lovely motor. I have a 94 Vienta. Still goes like a dream. Had to plug the oil leaks though.

Cheers

[TrevorW]

Actually it didn't but moreso in general prices persei across the board

as someone with accounting background wouldn't it be more profitable to sell 10 items at $10 than 5 and $15

retailers in Australia markup extravagantly

examples abound

Kathmandu
recently purchase a casual jacket for $50 original price tag $300
purchased a Goretex jacket $230 around price $539

do you honestly think a pair of Bonds hipster trunks now made in China are worth $15-20 or cost anyware near that in materials and labour

please get real the sooner people stop accepting these price rip offs the sooner things will change

and yes when a recent price war raged on this site I compalined bitterly to the retailer how he could justify a price drop of sevaral hundred dollars in the space of a few months

furthermore the same supplier is lucky I haven't referred the matter too the ACCC as there is such a thing as false and misleading advertisement
what about recelling the product and taling the issue up with the manaufacturer

and as a lot of people know warranties are warranties and a lot are not worth the paper they are written on

Cases abound of blantant price rip offs everywhere in this country
and yet we continue to put up with it because of necessity and the lack of Govt intervention

[MrB]

Yep, thats how WAL*MART put K-Mart out of business in the US.

[Peter Ward]

Seems I have a knack for inspiring spirited posts!

My point was however, more along the lines of: here is an *Aussie* Company selling their product *way cheaper* in the USA than here, and effectivey making sure this inflated (local) price would be paid by any ex-pats who dare to venture to foreign shores.....

Eat my shorts! comes to mind :)

[FredSnerd]

Hi Stephen

Lets take your post one at a time.



It is not uncommon for hobbiest sites like IIS to regularly speak of and thereby encourage lower prices so that the hobbie is accessible to as many as possibe. I find it disturbing that you would want to discourage this legitimate line of discussion esp when this hobbie is so horrendously expensive and a bit of relief for your fello astronmers might be warranted. Ohh wash my mouth out with soap. Consideration for the consumer over the local dealer. Heresy.

[dpastern]

The simple solution is to legislate international warranties on ALL products. No manufacturer would ignore the Australian market, even if we are small globally, we're far too big dollar wise to ignore, just to avoid this type of law. It wouldn't kill local business (vs overseas competitors), but it WOULD introduce competition, and it would reduce over inflated prices.

Let's be realistic here - say I buy a Canon 500mm f4 IS EF lens from the US - it's the same physical lens as one bought here, locally. They both come out of the same factory. If the product is identical, why price differentials (other than exchange rates of course)?

This small market argument is BS imho. It's an attempt at self justification for ridiculous price hikes. Again, as TrevorW has correctly (imho) pointed out, no government will touch it. Let me remind the government(s) that they are elected by the people, for the people. Busienss has no right to vote, and in reality, should NEVER (along with religion) have ANY say in politics. Sorry, but 2% of the population shouldn't be able to override the rights of the rest of the population under ANY circumstances in my eyes. When the general public starts getting off their behinds and starts actually standing up for their rights, and forcing governments to govern for "the people", then something will happen. And only then.

Remember the old saying:



It's a very true saying imho.

Dave

[mental4astro]

WOW, I love this thread!

Govenments may be elected by the people, but they work for big business, placating the populous as they go. Hence the prices, food standards, fuel standards, etc, discrepencies.

What a thread!

[stephenb]

Hi Claude, as has been pointed out in many threads over the years here on IIS, a large part of the problem is the markup on the authorised importers of the product, not necessarily the local retail telescope shop. The only way ythe consumer will truely understand what is really going on with Australian prices if an Importer and retailer opening their books to the consumer to explain the breakdown or the prices. I'm sure everyone here would be interested in that, but that's not going to happen. And again, as I tried to point out, this argument has been going on ad nausuem for years and nothing, nothing has ever changed. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Why not? considering there is this perceived crime against the consumer? Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be.

Again, as I said, this is a tired ol' argument but I look forward to it popping up in, ooooh, about 4 weeks.

[marki]

Stephen did you miss the recent ATS vs Andrews price war on GSO RC8 scopes????

Mark

[dpastern]

I do not believe that this is wholly true. The populace is placated ONLY to the point where we don't overthrow the rich and powerful. In today's modern world, something like the French revolution would never happen, because those instigators would be labelled terrorists and hunted down (and then unfairly imprisoned on weak evidence [if any], and tortured as well - a point of example - Guantanamo Bay). There's the old story of the horse and the carrot...

I don't care one iota about business - I care about the rights of the MAJORITY of the population. Ever heard the saying "majority rules"? It seems that this doesn't apply to the rich and the powerful.

Call me anarchist if you will, but our current socio-economical setup is not sustainable. Out of chaos comes order, out of order comes chaos - that is the way of nature.

Dave

PS Actually, I'm probably classifiable as a extreme left, pagan, anarchist and chaos lover. It's why many of my beliefs are unpopular with the general populace, who really, are just sheep.

[DavidU]

My products were quite a bit more expensive in the US.The lure is the big US boys more or less tell you what they will pay for items, however the US distributors will give you an order 10 to 20 times what an Au dealer will put on the table.
I will also would not sell to a US consumer and will always forward orders to the US distributor. If I did I would have all the goods returned or dumped on the US market.

[Peter Ward]

Drifting even further from my original post.... deep down I suspect I am an anarchist, but........... I'd rather have a skilled surgeon perform a delicate op on yours truly, rather than a majority
vote: vis " hands up all those who think we should cut here"

Sadly the majority is often wrong.

[FredSnerd]

Hi Stephen,

I think its best to keep my reply brief so as not to offend but the bias in your reply against your fellow consumers in favour of the local retailers is very troubling. You say "this perceived crime against the consumer". Why are we just imagining it (consider A Celestron SkyScout in US $US178, in Australia $AUD500). And then apparently its really all our fault because as you say its “Apathy, I guess? Perhaps the average consumer just couldn't be buggered? I know I couldn't be”. And then you berate us for even bringing up the subject. I can certainly understand that you have had this discussion so often that it tires you. But why discourage us from trying to do something. It seems to me that even if we just talk about it, its bound to get back to all the players and maybe translate into a fairer deal for your fellow hobbyists.

[astroron]

Hear! Hear!, I think tyhe thread has lost it's Way:thumbsup:

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Peter,

I figured out what the problem is with the pricing. The chip you want needs to be programmed for "Australian Conditions" because your Ferrari is driving on the wrong side of the road and upside down (we are Down Under) compared to the US, so they have to compensate the programming to make the car work at all!

The underlying truth to this may just be that they think you are loaded and you have more money than sense? Or is it because they are Americans who think that the sun sets when they pull up their own pants?

Cheers

Chris

[FredSnerd]

Why do you assume the majority is always wrong. I dont see why thats so. And whose saying that the skill of a surgeon should be overridden by majority rule. When the majoirty is properly advised by experts they are IMHO more capable of rendering the right decision then politicians who are advised by experts.

[dpastern]

Back onto the car issue - Peter - is it possible to explore other countries other than the US? I really have to agree with you - the aussie company is being horrible in their comments. That's a complete disregard for the customer. Worse, it appears that they are going out of the way to make life difficult for you. It doesn't endear one to their business.

I honestly think that there should be some sort of body to deal with companies like this - and give them a good swift boot up the rear end (and a good 'ole clip in the earole!).

Dave

[FredSnerd]

I believe there is something in the Trade Practices Act about the Aussie Cos behaviour. I would be ringing the ACCC to see if something could be done (of course the ACCC is just a PR joke but they might offer some advice. They have a hot line you can ring. At least you might scare the bejesus out of the Aussie Co.

[Spanrz]

I remember reading something about chips or recoding the ECM/ECU of Ford Falcons. Something about the V8's in OZ and a USA made software/hardware.

There was a huge kerfuffle about 12 months ago with some people (dealers or associates of the performance software/hardware) in OZ were illegally coding cars and backdooring the system, getting extra cars done for free.
The software used to be locked to a licence, that the amount of cars you could code / tune per box. You then had to purchase another box or another license. I am not 100% sure how it went, but it was something like that.

Now from what I understand has happened, that the manufacturer of the tuning stuff has redone his work, and cut out any fiddling by unauthourized people, meaning you have to pay exorbanent cost per car tune.

Albeit if it's another company selling this concept, but it seems these people who sell this type of stuff, is using capitalism to their greatest strength and us consumers have to "Suck it up princess". That is, if you "really" want their product.

I just went through this with my wife over a portable fridge/freezer. (we had a massive debate in the store, hehe).
Cost is $1200, which I think is an absolute rort, but iceblocks aren't going to cut it for 6-7 days of camping (with meats)
Hence, I just had to put up and shut up, so I could achieve an outcome, that was the best for the both of us.

I so with you on this one Peter, but to me, it also comes to personal terms of justification "Do I really need it".

[FredSnerd]

Peter


If you type TRADE PRACTICES ACT 1974 - SECT 51AC in your browser you will find the prohibition on “Unconscionable conduct in business transactions”. I think if you showed the e-mails to the ACCC the Oz co may very well get a call from them. Also the provisions from s45 and beyond are relevant but their "possible" application requires closer study.

[Peter Ward]

I digress even further. I said "often" not always.

On technical issues (that I have some knowledge of), I know that the pollies have been very poorly advised by so called "experts". eg aviation security "Arrest that pensioner! She has knitting needles and hand cream!!" :lol:
plus confiscating the Pilot's toothpaste (more than 100ml)...humm...if I continue this line of thought I'm only going to get cranky...

[Peter Ward]

Agreed! They can "shove it" comes to mind :)