Are rental scopes cheating?

[OzRob]

As I live and work in Thailand imaging during certain times of the year is a non-starter. From about May to October it is very rare to get a clear night. To get my imaging fix over the last 5 months or so I have been using online rental scopes. It's easy as all you need to do is pick a target, decide on filters, exposure times and numbers of images and you are away. The images can even be captured while you are asleep. However, in the back of my head I think that it is all too easy and is cheating. So, is it cheating???...:)

[Peter Ward]

Only if you don't tell your wife....

[jjjnettie]

I think I'd go crazy if I didn't have some sort of data to be working on.
If you can't capture it yourself, I guess remote imaging is the next best thing.

[dpastern]

I don't consider it cheating. How much does it cost?

Dave

[Octane]

An absolute fortune. Some of the images I've seen taken with these setups, would have cost over a thousand dollars.

It is not a poor man's option.

Regards,
Humayun

[bojan]

Well, if we go on that path in thinking, then buying a very good and expensive equipment is also cheating.. because, lets be honest, equipment is a name of the game in this hobby of ours.

And, what about professional astronomers? They "rent" the equipment the are using in their work... so are they are also cheating?

[Hagar]

Not this one again....... It's only cheating if it's not you using the remote scope.
Lots more to a good image than just the captured data.

[OzRob]

Yeah, I agree that some of the money that some people put into them is excessive. However, it does not need to be that expensive. In some instances I think it could actually be cheaper than having your own equipment, especially if you don't do a lot of observing and imaging. First of all there is depreciation on the gear and the expense of getting to a dark site. Of course for some people that is all part of the fun.

Out of interest I looked at how much it would cost to set up a remote setup as an investment. I thought about a Tak FSQ106. With all the equipment required it would have cost just shy of US$30K. It’s not a good investment IMO.

Anyway, I have learned a lot about imaging and processing over the last 5 months. I suspect that I have started in the hobby differently than others but I think I have an advantage. I have seen what is required to get good results and hopefully that will help when I can get out with my own equipment. I am looking forward to November when clear skies are the norm here rather than the near impossible.

[avandonk]

It all depends on what your real priorities are. Do you want top images by bypassing all the joys of the complications of setting up your own imaging rig? Thats fine as long as you give accreditation to all the inputs to your images.

I would bet that even a moderately experienced imager could not make the best use of a remote scope's data.

It is not the destination, it is the journey that is important!

Bert

[Gama]

I agree with Bert, while building and setting up my little system, i had great fun (Watching my brother in law do all the work), and as many would agree, first light is tummy butterflies night.
I think most of the fun is in knowing you put it all together (In my case watched), and what your viewing is very special to self satisfaction.

Theo.

[gbeal]

I agree with Doug, not this again. Last time I sat on the fence, but this time I'll air my view.
I reckon it is, but to me it should be the individuals decision after all.
I have friends that control their gear from the comfort of their couch, watching TV, and contest that if you aren't getting cold, insect bitten, dewed on, or tired, then you aren't really doing it. But hey, that is me, and each to their own.
Gary

[multiweb]

IMHO rental scope would be the opportunity to play with gear that I'd never dream of owning one day. :)

[dpastern]

holy $dollars H! I'll pass then.

Dave

[White Rabbit]

I think some of the scopes on light buckets run at about $1 a min. so a long exposure is going to require some long dollars to go with it.

[White Rabbit]

BTW, I dont think it's cheating, if your a junkie, you get your fix anyway you can....

[jjjnettie]

Someone should set up a Flickr account where people can access unprocessed images to practice with.
Though there'd be a lot of hoo har over copyright.
But then people wouldn't be sharing their very best data in this way.
I'd throw in a few of mine. Just to see how others interpret my images.

[rogerg]

Cheating would be if you steal someone's equipment or data.

But if your'e paying for it, be it on a night by night basis or for the equipment outright, I don't see the difference, it's just two different ways of doing it. It's like the choice between buying a lawn mower and mowing your lawn with it, or renting a lawn mower from the petrol station and using that, why would the latter be cheating?

I haven't used rent-a-scopes yet because (1) I have a slight preferrence towards saving that money to invest in my own equipment (2) my main problem is I don't have enough time to use my equipment, so having someone else's to use instead is of no additional benefit to me. (3) I like the gadges of astronomy, so half the fun is playing with the setup.

.. but I don't have any problem with others using them.

I certainly don't think sitting on a couch using my observatory from inside is cheating, there's a lot of effort involved in setting that up, it's just the time has gone in to arranging it to work remotely rather than actually being out there. And it comes back to the gadget thing and what you're interested in about astronomy. it doesn't necessarily give you any advantage over anyone else.

[jjjnettie]

Nearly got the Flickr account up and running. Just to see if this idea will work.

[theodog]

I think that sounds a great idea.:thumbsup:
:D

[jjjnettie]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/astro_jjj_unprocessed_data/
Only one image loaded so far.

[jjjnettie]

I'll start a new thread on this.
Sorry about the hijack.

[koputai]

Great idea Jeanette. It will allow some of us to give the processing thing a go before spending bigly on our own equipment. Personally I'm keen to get in to imaging, but am a bit hesitant to buy the required gear up front, with the possibility that I will never get the hang of the processing part.

Cheers,
Jason.

[jjjnettie]

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?p=501306#post501306
New thread here.

[telecasterguru]

While on the subject of cheating, my legal dictionary defines cheating in criminal law as: to defraud or obtain a benefit by deception including any fraudulent statement, conduct, trick, or device.

Frank

[TrevorW]

It's not cheating if you admit too it IMO

we then can adopt are own bias'es based on the facts provided

[Terry B]

I don't use or want to use the rental scopes but I do see why some people do.
Not all of the use is for pretty pictures. Lots of data submitted to the AAVSO for transient phenomena seems to come from GRAS scopes. Often this is from northern hemisphere people looking at southern stars.
I don't know if the price is the same as for pretty pic data but it is nice to see some science data coming from the rental scopes.

[jase]

Couldn't resist jumping on this thread...

I don't see it as cheating, but like others have mentioned to appreciate what goes into imaging, you can only get this experience setting up your own gear. Some obtain great pleasure through tinkering with their gear and troubleshooting issues. That's fine. However, if your goal is to be a productive imager, setting up your gear and playing around will wear thin pretty fast. For me, the real work is in processing the data, not acquiring it. Hence, I'll go to great lengths to improve the data acquisition efficiency. Automate, automate, automate. My definition of pleasure is not watching a guide star over a 6 hour imaging run or manually refocusing the scope every hour to make sure its still in the CFZ. I now use my own gear as a robotic set up located under dark rural skies in which is accessed 180km away (my very own rental scope - hardcore:D).

With rental scopes, I don't think people fully appreciate the level of service they're getting simply comparing the gear they get access to. Sure the gear is high quality, but its only part of the equation. Amongst other items, you're also paying for their location i.e. pristine dark skies. This alone puts a different weight to the equation. You're paying for quality data, but this can't come from the instrument alone. The environment its hosted in is critical. I have to say, imaging northern hemisphere objects is quite a highlight.

I liken it to the following analogy - You've got the money to purchase a 20" RC or CDK on PME with all the latest kit - good for you, but did they also mention you need to sink another $100k+ into buying a block of rural land on the side of a mountain to take full advantage of your recent scope purchase? Oooppps! Ah what the hell, just install it in the burbs and use it like a Ferrari with a rev limiter - on the bright side (literally), you'll get really good at processing gradients.;)

You need to ask yourself what you want to achieve out of imaging. Acquiring data is the tip of the iceberg.:)

[TrevorW]

Other persons data IC1805 Image Acquisition by Jim Misti

a quick process of HaLRGB data from a site provided by Jase

and I'm not good at this

refer this link for image comparisons

http://www.mistisoftware.com/astronomy/Compare_mel15_Med.htm

[DavidU]

That 32" RC is quite a reasonable unit:D

[telecasterguru]

Trevor,

The Misti Mountain site is a great show of the different approaches to processing. First you need the data.

Frank

[TrevorW]

Downloaded 100meg of data from the site then tried my hand at it

LRGB processing is a whole different game than normal TIFF file stacking and processing

[AussieSky]

Doesnt have to be expensive. SkyLive (http://www.skylive.it/skylive-new/index.php?lan=en) is less than $300 per year for unlimited shared access to 5 telescopes, 3 in Italy and 2 in Oz.

Greg

[jasonh]

I am one of Gary's mates who sits on the couch while I image. I don't consider it cheating. I could be outside sitting beside it, at the computer outside, waiting watching how well the autoguider is performing but how does getting cold add to the image?

IMHO if you want to have the argument with me you better have a film camera on the back of your scope with no computer and your eyeball stuck to an illuminated reticle and a controller in your hand.. :lol: Otherwise your just the same as me except colder :)

Having said that, the images are worth more to me when taken on my gear as I set it up and I am building the scope, other then that feel good factor I guess there isn't much in it.

Jason

[multiweb]

:lol: Good way to put it.

I get this satisfaction feeling too when taking pics with my own rig. It's the whole process I find I enjoy most.

[bojan]

Imagine how warm feeling you would have if you built your equipment yourself ;)

Now THAT would have been ultimate non-cheating :P

[jasonh]

Yes, well I didn't build the mount but my 12.5" RC is only days away from being finished. Given the weather, I would say weeks away from first light :)

[DavidU]

Now thats awesome ! any pics?

[multiweb]

Actually that would be the pinnacle. Doing it all from scratch. Hardware & Software. Imagine all the know how you'd gain and the control you'd get. You could pretty much improve any aspect of your imaging process. :)

[jasonh]

I do have some but they are old. It's in pieces as I work on it so a lot more is complete, in fact all of it really. When I put it together I will be sure to post something in the diy section..

[multiweb]

Very cool - did you do all the design and machining yourself?

[jasonh]

Yes, its a knock off of an RCOS scope, thats where that basic design came from but it's all done by me and the machining by myself. I wish my mill and lather was CNC though :)

[Bassnut]

Very cool. Are they carbon trusses?, and did you have access to a CNC machine?.

[jasonh]

They are carbon trusses, I had them made by a company in auckland. About 27NZD each. I made them too long, they will loose a reasonable amount of length..

No CNC, just hours of turning wheels on the machines :lol:

[AlexN]

Rental scopes are not cheating, however i dont think data acquired through a rental setup should be allowed to be entered into imaging competitions... If you didnt set up the mount, get it aligned, get the scope collimated, work out any issues like field curvature, guiding problems, focus etc, then you should not be able to win awards for the quality of image the setup achieved.. I personally would love to use one of the GRAS scopes or one of the Lightbuckets scopes one day to capture an image that my gear would not be capable of...

[Bassnut]

Very neat work then. Then next question of course is, where did you get the RC mirrors ? (or did you grind them yourself;-).

[jasonh]

Heh, I am not a grinder.. I wouldn't mind one day but my problem is that I would want to bite off something bigger then I could chew..

I got the mirror set from Paul Jones at Star Instruments, I see that you have an rcos in your signature so there is a good chance your's came from the same place.

Jason

[Bassnut]

Alex

You (and others) seem to be making a broad assumption that all the above will somehow be done better with a commercial service than by yourself, why is that?.

[multiweb]

Man, I admire your machining skills. Something that I would love to learn how to do. :)

[Bassnut]

Yes indeed, wow thats impressive, I didnt know you, as an amature, could buy just mirrors from him. If you get this right, you may well have found yourself a tidy little earner ;) :thumbsup:

[AlexN]

I know someone who'd be interested in a 10" RC with Star Instruments optics and an OTA that looks like that if the price is right :P :D

Fred - A few guys in the US have built RC's using star instruments optics... one guy built a 20" robotic RC... that was insane... electric secondary mirror focus and collimation, temperature regulation, built in heaters... looked just like an RCOS....

As does Jasons' Its a very nice looking scope mate... you've done yourself proud.

[dpastern]

Nice piece of work Jason. As far as I'm aware, there seems to be very little information on building Ritchey Chretiens - if I understand things correctly, the mirrors (and of course, there shaping) make distances between them very specific, with little or no tolerance. Are there any good instructions/designs on the web that talk about making this sort of telescope design?

Dave

[DavidU]

Crikey ! What a top job Jason:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[jasonh]

Thanks guys, I guess I am taking this thread off topic so if you like I will create a thread later today in ATM and put some pics in..

I lied though, I put in one pic that had a BT technologies dovetail plate for a FSQ. I decided to use that as part of the scope and didnt do that one myself..

[AlexN]

I suppose when you're paying a fair bit of money to use a professional level setup you do assume that it will be collimated and aligned properly, and not have all of the problems that the amateur deals with in their own setup.. Having said that, as I mentioned in my previous post, I think its always better to have done these things yourself. When you've stacked your image, processed it, and had it printed and framed, you can look at it and think...

I bought the setup, ironed out glitches, got it aligned, framed and focused the shot how I wanted it, took the exposures, processed them, and produced the image that is now on my wall...

Its very fulfilling.

[bojan]

IMHO, there is no difference between renting and buying your own equipment.
If you are spending significant money to own something (that will be used couple of times in a year) you may as well go a bit further and rent the already adjusted collimated etc gear. The results will be much more cost effective... The worst approach (money-wise of course) is building your own equipment.
Actually, you may even order the image, because the equipment operator can be considered as part of the renting equipment (being this a human operator or computer).
This is exactly what professional astronomers are doing. Does this make them "cheaters" or "criminals" even?
Of course not.

Those things are very individual obviously... and the only thing that matters is the enjoyment in doing it.

That is why the results (images) obtained like this can not possibly be compared (unless they are used for science.. which is totally different thing then).. and all those competitions are pretty much nonsense. Those people should just stop beating around the bushes and just present their bank accounts, to shorten the competition procedures.

The only real difference is ATM.

[jasonh]

Hi all, so I dont take this thread off topic I started one in the ATM section, pop over there if you were interested in my project. I will post some more later on after the F1!

[Rob_K]

Yep, remote scopes are becoming essential tools for all sorts of transient phenomena. Fairly cheap too if you're just looking for a few seconds data, but no doubt expensive if you're getting hours of LRGB etc.

Hope to get into it at a later stage. All sorts of benefits - northern comets/novae no longer out of range, still get data on a cloudy night, follow objects for longer than your 'allotted' dark hours...



Think that says it all! :thumbsup:

Cheers -

[jase]

Astronomy mag - November 2009 - Lightbuckets article (http://www.lightbuckets.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1603&postcount=3).

Whether you like rental scopes or not, they are here to stay and are only going to expand as demands continue to increase (or should I say our dark skies decrease due to population and lack of light pollution governance, etc).

[gregbradley]

Whatever you get enjoyment from is valid for sure.

I personally like the chosing, the setup and handling of the gear and being hands on. I like the night environment as normal life is so based around doing things during the day.

Night at a remote dark site is very quiet and peaceful and has its own reward.

Too much time in front of a computer is not ideal these days in a spectator based society that doesn't always do a lot.

There is also a lot of skill in handling all the bits and pieces and making it all work as we all know. Still the top gear is very unreal in terms of cost so the rental companies provide a service there that is hard to match.

Greg.