Why so few observation reports?

[Lismore Bloke]

It seems that visual observers are reluctant to post reports of their observations. There seems to be only a relative handful of us doing it.
The imagers are very ready to post their efforts and help each other out with advice, in spite of the extra setup time and post processing work needed. Are visual amateurs so few in number?

[stephenb]

You pose an intruiging question. I cannot really answer your question but it is odd, isn't it? I dabble in a small amount of imaging, but my main enjoyment comes from being a visual observer. I always have. I stopped sketching long ago and I don't really record any of my observing notes anymore, although I should start that up again. I'm just happy to sit or stand at the telescope and wander from object to object, in my own world and allow my senses to soak up the views. So I guess all my observation results are in my head.

I think that perhaps some observers feel their visual observations are less than adequate when stood up against the proliferation of imaging which has occured in recent years. Or do they feel that their visual observations are boring, or not of any interest to anyone, unless they are attached to some multi-coloured, multi-stacked image?

Perhaps some observers are unable to articulate their visual observing into words, for whatever reason?

Just my thoughts on the topic.

Stephen

[goober]

I used to do it and post here, and found it rewarding and intriguing. I wrote some Perl to aid recording and filing the reports, as well as searching back to retrieve obs reports via objects.

It's work - as you need some method of recording at the eyepiece. I tried a voice recorder and a notepad. Notepad works best and you can do a quick sketch.

[Rob_K]

:rain:

:(

Cheers -

[Paddy]

Stephen's comments just about cover the totality of my experience. I only do visual observing and tend to just enjoy looking at things. It would probable sharpen my observing if I recorded what I saw, but I've found fiddling with red lights and notepads a bit frustrating. I've at times started doing some sketches, but again find this a little awkward, especially if I'm up 2-3 steps on a ladder. But I know if I mnade the effort I would see a lot more.

[Lismore Bloke]

I think Stephen has hit the nail on the head. I posed the question about recording observations here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=50694

Some of the comments on that thread are very pertinent. The dictaphone idea suggested by Les and Rod, and the improvements that simple device made to the quality of observations relates to the problem. I know my own posts only record simple impressions and I would like to improve them. Sketching is fine if one has the skills, but it makes dark adaptation difficult and slows things down. Making notes and sketches also helps, but I think the dictaphone idea is best.

[pgc hunter]

Probably because most visual observers live in that perpetually cold and cloudy hole known as Melbourne. Rob K has summed it up right. Nothing but clouds and rain for months on end. We need a desert climate, with NO bloody rain and NO bloody clouds FOREVER!!!!!

Doug you need to post your obs reports, I really used to enjoy yours back in the good old days before the International Year of Cloudy Weather. I use a notepad aswell, also I do sketches.


I do sketches often and I find it helps to see *more*. I keep my red light at its lowest intensity and it's far less bothersome than the light pollution when I take my eye away from the eyepiece.
Visual observation to me is the ultimate relaxation and enjoyment, no dealing with computers, imagers, wires, cables, software etc which all can, and will stuff up at some point. Unfortunately I live in the cloudiest bloody place on Earth so this pleasure is only available once a month on average :mad2:

[goober]

Thanks Sab... I would but I literally haven't had the scope out in 9 months. The tag line sums up why...

[pgc hunter]

C'mon mate, surely you can go outside even if for only 30 mins to an hour....it's your hobby..everyone needs a time out occasionally! And Melbourne is so cloudy that it would only add up to 30 mins to an hour per month.....!!!! :P

[goober]

By the time I wrestle the little bruiser into bed, I'm literally asleep myself :)

But you've inspired me... I'll fire up the Apo and get back into it. I do miss it.

[pgc hunter]

Don't worry buddy, when the bub is out like a light , you can give yourself 30 mins to an hour of "me" time enjoying what you do best - Plus you have the missus to tend to baby Goober when you're out there :thumbsup: ;) You know you want to get back in da game, - you've got the Sco-Sag Milkyway in the evening, the Moon, Some nice PNe's i.e. NGC7009 and a few fantastic evening GC's inlcuding M22, M15, M30 and M2 :thumbsup:

[DavidU]

The weather here has been the limiting factor, and also the available time to write up an accurate report. I have not used the 12" dob for months.

[telecasterguru]

I think the problem in Sydney is that you can't actually see anything through the trees, blocks of flats and the constant street and building lights.

Frank

[JethroB76]

Its been raining in Tassie for about 4 months

[mozzie]

ill try and post more observation sessions i must admite that some of the threads are very very good and interesting and i seem as my posts would only get laughed at does anybody else feel that way
mozzie

[DavidU]

Yes !

[Lismore Bloke]

Hi Mozzie,

I must admit that it took quite a while for me to post any reports, for much the same reasons. I found, however, that the much more experienced visual observers were very welcoming and supportive, however poor and "unscientific" I thought my efforts were. I'm still on a steep learning curve, but I'm not letting that stop me. I think your observations will be very welcome. Cheers, Paul.

[Rodstar]

I should get a bit more disciplined and post some observing reports.

I have trouble keeping up with the traffic on this forum, and in particular finding the time to read other's observing notes - let alone posting my own. In that context, I wonder how many would actually read mine if I posted them?! Anyhow, I will start posting some in the coming months, and see what benefit others get from them!??

I have noticed on Cloudy Nights, where there are much more defined categories of threads, that there is always much higher traffic in relation to eyepieces, equipment etc, as opposed to actual observing. I think that a large number of amateurs either deliberately or inadvertently spend more time thinking about, discussing, and planning equipment purchases than actually observing. This is fine....whatever your bliss is.....but actual observing is hard work, it takes discipline, and if astronomy is just a casual hobby there will be very little progress made with improving observing technique or making detailed notes.

[mental4astro]

Here, here. I agree. The business end is what matters. Now, what to do with this cloud stuff, work commitments, family...

[Blackant]

Me too! I'm going to give it a go though, as Paul said I've found this community really supportive, and I reckon I'll get a lot more out of my hobby by doing sketches and observation reports. I'm still fairly new to the telescope game so people may have already seen this site but it looks to be a pretty awesome resource for learning how to sketch, and for inspiration :thumbsup: http://www.perezmedia.net/beltofvenus/archives/000567.html regards, Ant

[Saturnine]

I'd like to add my own interpretation and that is that visual observing is such an subjective experience that taking notes and drawing sketches sometimes takes away the enjoyment of consulting maps and observing lists etc. and gradually star hopping to that sometime elusive faint fuzzy or pretty double star. Although I have at times taken notes and even made a few sketches and they help to remember particular sessions and sights seen and have been working my way ,albeit slowly, through the Messier list and a few others as well and ticking them off as an aid to my memory.
I feel that I should also qualify what I've written and offer my congratulations and admiration to all the astronomers that have committed their observations to paper otherwise we wouldn't have such treasured books and observing guides as Hartungs etc. etc. and also to the members of this forum that have placed observing lists in the Projects and Articles section that are an inspiration to us visual observers. I may be classified as old fashioned and that's fine but I take delight in finally getting that targeted object in the eyepiece and somewhat feel that GoTo is somehow cheating the learning curve, though something like Argo Navis digital setting circles are a very tempting device as an aid to actually seeing more objects in a given session but ,also, as they say in the classics, quality over quantity is more satisfying. Well, it's clear outside, so I'm out there.
Take your time and enjoy what you see.

Kind Regards

Jeff

[pgc hunter]

I'll be reading.... :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I noticed that too....infact you'd be *lucky* to get 2 replies to your observing reports there.

[ngcles]

Hi Jeff & All,



I think you're right Jeff, if you find taking notes etc etc detracts from the experience then the solution for you is simple -- don't take notes! This is a hobby after all and it should be as simple or as complex as you want it to be. Its not a competition or a matter of "if he/she does it I should too" -- its a matter of what you or anyone else for that matter finds enjoyable and enhances the experience of being under the stars -- yes?

As for "cheating", isn't using a telescope cheating in the first place ?? ;)

But seriously, if that's your go, good on ya and enjoy it. I have a different experience -- I was a dedicated star hopper etc for years and years. Like riding a bicycle, it never leaves you. I don't feel I need to improve or practice my finding skills and the Argo simply makes my observing so much more productive (from my point of view) it is a brilliant bit of gear (and I'm not paid to say that).

The Servocat is a bit different. Sure it has wow factor -- but I'm over that. Best of all it means a drive. Once an object is centred in the ep it stays there. No more up and across, up and across keeping it in the sweet-spot etc etc. The telescope simply gets out of the way and you are left only with a view. I reckon it is also worth 1/2 a magnitude at the eyepiece because your brain is fixed only on looking (hopefully observing). The dictaphone for me also assists the same process. I just switch it on state the identity of the object and the eyepiece used and then just ramble on about what I can see. Simple as -- for me anyway.

Why do I post my observations here? First and foremost it is to encourage others to observe -- anything.

Frankly the other reason is this (and it's selfish I know) -- I don't want people to think that because I write for S&T and or AS&T, that I'm really just some well-paid journo/writer stuck in an office somewhere writing columns about things I really don't have much of a clue about. Then, when it gets dark, someone hangs me up in a cupboard and they bring me out the next day to write something else. Some people believe that is the way it is with the folks who write for books or magazines. For most of us its a long, long way from the truth. I post my raw observations here to hopefully dispel that myth.

I look (and have looked) through telescopes quite a lot.

What I hope to show (through posting here) and have people understand is that I am an observer first and last. I'm just like most of the people here who are passionate about and hopelessly addicted to astronomy. I'm an active member of an astronomical society (I was even it's President once!) too. I go to the talks, take my 'scope to the open nights from time to time, occasionally give talks at my club and hang around with other amateurs because ... that's what I am.

I make a telescope from time to time when I feel I need one. I love looking through telescopes big and small. I'm not a journalist. I work from home (on those columns) and the eyepiece impressions are written, virtually without exception from my own notes (that's another good reason for me to keep notes). Its not vicarious, they are my experiences looking through my eyepieces using the telescopes I made.

To summarise: I hope that when people read them they will say to themselves "this guy does actually look through telescopes" -- I walk the talk.

I just happen to be lucky enough to have a gig that pays me a few bob to write about it (something I also enjoy a lot).

I sure hope I have never put anyone off from posting their own experiences -- that was never my intention. I really like reading about what other people see through their telescopes and hope others will continue/start to post their eyepiece impressions. I'd be seriously surprised if you get your paper "marked" here by anyone -- I hope that I and others in return can do the best we can to simply encourage you whatever level you're at.


Best,

Les D

[Rob_K]

Well said Les! You certainly have never put me off, in the same way that Hubble images have never put me off enjoying astrophotography at my own level (now don't get a big head - let's say Peter Ward's images rather than Hubble! ;) :lol: ).

Personally, I enjoy everyone's observing reports, from your massive screeds Les, to tales of the simplest of nights out. What they do is not so much inspire, but show the rich diversity of personal experience out there, and a common passion for the night sky. My own reports are pretty basic, but so am I, LOL! Although in all honesty there is a little bit of secret hope in mine that maybe if I post what I can see through a cheap little scope then it might inspire a few bods suffering aperture envy to enjoy what they've got a little more. And the Universe is a wonderful thing at all scales! :D

Keep 'em coming - aperture envy certainly hasn't been my problem this winter, but clear sky envy has!!! :rolleyes:

Cheers -

[Lismore Bloke]

I would like to thank everyone for posting on this thread. When I posed the question I was hoping to draw out some opinions and experiences that might explain the small number of observation reports. I suspected that there was a feeling that the quality of observations that had been posted in the reports section were so high, that simple eyepiece impressions might look a bit lightweight. The responses to my own simple posts has been so welcoming that I felt that I should continue posting. Once again Les has summarised it nicely. We are all different and should not feel that we have to post observations of a semi-professional nature to feel accepted. Purchasing a dictaphone soon will improve the quality and detail, not just of the posts themselves, but what I am seeing. Training the eye to see more detail. Not rushing from one object to another. I am trying to improve my observations because I CHOOSE TO DO IT - NOT BECAUSE I FEEL THAT I HAVE TO PLEASE ANYONE OR MEET A STANDARD. I will be getting an Argo setup for the 12" Dob soon because it will maximise my eyepiece time and reduce the frustration of not finding objects in a light-polluted environment. Visual observing is a hobby after all and we all should observe in a way that gives us the most enjoyment. Thanks again to everyone. Cheers, Paul.

[goober]

One last piece of advice if you're going to post obs. report. Do NOT call Mimosa "Bcrux". ngcles will be all over you ;)

[pgc hunter]

Observation Report 23/6/09
Scope : 12" dob
Time: 10:40pm
Seeing: 4/10
Transparency: 4/5

Jewel Box
it was awesome

Becrux
Very nice star in Crux, lovely in the 12" dob at 104x. Really, really great.

Eta Carina
Totally kewl, espically with UHC filter at 64x. So big. Keyhole was spotted as a looping dark cloud within the brightest part of the complex

:P

[ngcles]

Hi Doug & All,



... like a cheap suit. Grrrrrr ... ;)


Best,

Les D

P.S I thought a grumpy old man was allowed a few pet aversions ?? :P

P.P.S Yes, I do have more than one pet aversion ... but you won't get to know the others until you cross the line ...

P.P.P.S Doug,

re your comment about having a baby around the house -- agree completely. Been there, done that. They're only young once (thank goodness). Drink in every moment of their childhood while its there to be enjoyed. The stars will still be waiting for you later. :thumbsup:

[Paddy]

I wondered if you meant it was something that would turn him on!:eyepop::rofl:

[mozzie]

what a great thread this has turned out to be as some of the other observation are reported its good to then chase that object and have a look great thread lets all post the occasional nights viewing and let others see what you were looking at
mozzie

[Lismore Bloke]

Jeez PGC you like living dangerously!!!:lol::lol::lol:

Classic! You will say next that you like the Caldwell list rather than the NGC.

[pgc hunter]

Ooh the Caldwell...totez forgot about that funtastic compilation of visual pleasure! That's like, like the most awesomest supa dooopa catalogue evah! Teh NGC wishes it was as mint as the 1 and only Caldwell. Becrux shood be part of ze Caldwell catalogue, you all know it's right and totally keeewwll!!!!

[Rodstar]

Les, it is interesting to read your thoughts about Servocat.

When Peter Read made the Mary Rose, he kindly pre-drilled the scope in anticipation of ultimately fitting a Servocat when I had the necessary funds. I have now had the Mary Rose for 2.5 years, and I am yet Servocat fitted. I very much enjoy observing with the target moving through the FOV. For one thing, it helps me get my bearings as to E-W. I use Naglers and an Ethos with a Paracorr, so except at high power the object remains sharp and clear for a reasonable period of time. Nudging the scope to keep the object in the FOV is really second nature these days and requires minimal thought or effort.

I suspect it is the standing for long periods which has a greater adverse effect on my observing over the course of a long night, rather than the effort involved in following a moving target. I need to be quite disciplined about having regular breaks, sitting in my folding chair every so often, or I find that by about midnight, I am struggling to maintain my enthusiasm.

The one situation in which I wish I had Servocat is when I am showing the sky to newcomers / members of the public. I need to adjust the scope between every observer to keep the object in the FOV, and this can become very tiring over the course of an evening. It would be nice to train the scope on a target, and know it is still pointing at the object 20 minutes later!

I am interested in pursuing double star measurements in the coming years, and an thinking about getting an astrometric eyepiece. I suspect at that point getting Servocat may become necessary so that I can make accurate measurements with a stationary object.

Fortunately the exchange rate with the US has improved somewhat in the past 6 months. When I was last looking at Servocat prices earlier this year, I think it was going to cost me close to $4K to have it fitted to my dob. That is a lot of bucks to blow just to get tracking.

[Lismore Bloke]

:rofl::rofl:

Glenc will come gunning for you, he is not fond of the Old Master Moore's regurgitated Messier offering.

[astroron]

From my point of view as a visual observer I describe the way I see an object as if I was talking to you by my side at the telescope:astron:
I have not posted many reports because of the lack of feedback.:(
If I was to post a fairly average image of just about anything in the sky, there would be heaps of mainly complementary posts:)
But post a comprehensive observation report and you would be lucky to get more than a dozen comments.:(
One of the exceptions to this rule is when someone posts a report on UFO's then the flood gates open:D

[ngcles]

Hi All,



Add my name to that list too please (there you've discovered another of my pet aversions already). :rolleyes:


Best,

Les D

[ngcles]

Hi Ron & All,



All true mate -- but you forgot all the sightings of Nibiru :screwy:

Well folks do we agree by our collective efforts to lift the profile of this sub-forum? Or, are we going to let the astro-imagers have it all over us?


Best,

Les D

[DavidU]

Fellas, I absolutely look forward to reading every single word of these reports. I enjoy it a lot and a great way for me to learn. My hats are off to you Observationalists.
Please keep it comming !

[astroron]

Ah Yes, How could I forget Nibiru:rolleyes:

[pgc hunter]

Doncha guys know that Nibiru is as real as my love for Becrux :rofl:


Lol Personally I don't care for the caldwell catalouge either......I mean by that logic anyone should be able to pick some random objects and have an internationally recognised "catalogue".

Therefore I propose the SABwell Catalogue.

Features of the SABwell catalogue include:

- Every single DSO ever.

[ngcles]

Hi Rod,



Yep it is a tremendous boon for public outreach nights for the reasons you cited. I bought one because all my Newtonian reflectors for the previous 15-odd years had all been GEM mounted with a drive and the switch to non-tracking for me was a constant irritation. In finding difficult things (in particular), I tend to do quite a bit of back and forth to the map or photo etc to make sure I'm in exactly the right spot and I'm identifying/seeing the correct object. With a non-tracking telescope, this is much harder than one that tracks. The big value for me, as I mentioned before, is that a drive lets me see deeper. I've no doubt on that for my part -- it's like bolting on another inch of aperture.

One of the other really neat things the servocat does is the spiral search pattern. Yes it's good for finding things that maybe a bit out of a medium-power ep field. But, let me tell you there is no better way to see the LMC than to centre it with the 26mm T5 and hit the spiral search. You will spiral further and further out for about a minute and cover about 3 degrees and it feels like flying ... really super let me tell you. About 5 spirals and you can "fly" through the whole cloud in about 15 mins -- great fun.

If you are going to do some astrometry (measuring double stars) then a drive of some sort is an absolute essential. But even with a drive, you will find it hard, hard work with an alt-azimuth mount. Separation is easy to measure but PA will be ... testy -- at least ?

Yes the exchange-rate is doing the right thing at the moment for us. Good time to buy. If you are worried in any way about tackling the job from a technical point of view, (as I would be too), I can put you in contact with someone from my club who has now successfully installed 5 servocats and will do the job very professionally for a modest price. Lemme know.


Best,

Les D

[astroron]

A breakdown of one page of the observing report forum from 01/06/09 to 24/09/09 is
Posts 30
Read 5784 people
Replies167 to 25 post's
No replies to 5 post's
So it show's they are being read but very little comment.

[DavidU]

Ron, it's because these threads are so well done, methodical and accurate it's not funny. You fellas have done this for 20-30 years? It's very enjoyable reading the reports, however when I read them I am in awe of the detail so what can we say?Imaging is one art, observation is another.
Please keep up the reports.

[astroron]

David, thank you for your support.

[CoombellKid]

Being a single dad myself, I know just how you feel. Raising a son from more or
less baby stage, it wasn't until he was 18 months to 2 years old before I found
the time and energy. By that time I started setting up a bed in the back of the
car. That lil fella followed me everywhere like a third boot.

[glenc]

Observers are a dying breed, most people are imaging now.
I thought about imaging but didn't like the cost and I like to see lots of objects in one night not just image a few.

I avoid writing observing reports because they ruin my night vision.
When I do I like to use code like:
Brightness: vB or B or mB or F or vF (m is moderately)
Size: vL or L or mL or S or vS.
Concentration: 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 (high to low)
Sometimes I record audio comments, I must try it on my MP3 player sometime.

The worst thing about the Caldwell catalog is the renumbering of the objects.
I see there is a book that uses both Caldwell's list and one of mine. http://www.taurus-tech.com/ImageCat.htm

[stephenb]

I think that sums it up for me. This is a hobby, full stop. Nothing more, nothing less. I have far more important things in my life which take up my time, the most important one being my family. I even have other hobbies which also take up time and money, including microscopy and model railways, and they are just as enjoyable. Sure, I'd like to have a bigger and better (and more permenant) setup, perhaps an observatory etc, etc. but in the end my enjoyment comes from setting up the telescope on a free evening and doing a bit of star hopping to a few DSO's which I have not before viewed.

I used to use a mini cassette recorder, and I did do some brief sketching, but like many have said, that detracted from just enjoying the session.

Perhaps all that does not put me in the catagory of a "serious observer".

Don't get me wrong I fully respect all those imagers who pump out spectacular shots, but that's not for me.

Perhaps down the track I'll post some observation reports here, however rough and ready they are.

Thanks for a great thread, everyone. :thumbsup:

[goober]

It may not be useful, but do you know about this link here?

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/getnew-noimages.php

It returns all new posts in the forums that aren't in the Images section. It filters out all that "noise" ;)

[Lismore Bloke]

I too, look forward to seeing more activity. If this thread encourages people to use their 'scopes and enjoy the hobby more, then that's a great result. I hope no-one avoids asking questions - there is a wealth of experience on this site. As I said in one post, I am on a learning curve myself, and value the comments and reports of more experienced observers.

[WoodR]

G'day all (I couldn't resist that), I'm new here and this is my first post. I have a small observatory in rural Arizona, USA, am a rabid Mars observer, and I hang out on Cloudy Nights a lot (some may recognize my avatar).

I just want to say that it's completely unacceptable that you in Oz have Mars directly overhead at the best oppositions, and that all the best stuff is in the southern sky where I can't see it. Something must be done about it.

I hope to post a Mars opposition or two here soon for your amusement.
- Rick

[pgc hunter]

I've found that even on Cloudynights there seems to be a relatively small number of visual observers, there aren't many observing reports being posted. Stargazer's Lounge seems to have the most active visual observer contingent, they even have several subcategories for planetary, deepsky, widefield observing, reports etc. Lots of reports being posted there.

[Paddy]

It's been a month since I last had the scope out - being away, clouds and then the full moon have prevented my indulging my addiction. What joy to have an unexpectedly clear night and an hour between twilight's end and moonrise.

Mindful of this thread and also http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=50694 , I thought I'd try using my mobile phone to record some observations, preserving night vision by keeping one eye closed to start the recording. Alas, the phone put out too much light when held next to my ear to be useful. So it's off to the shop to get a dictaphone.

What was very interesting was the effect on my observing of thinking about what I would write in an observation report if I was going to post one. I became far more detailed and methodical in my observing, noticing much more than I normally would. So these threads have already been very helpful to me and I plan to do more recording of my observations and post some reports. I also worked out how to suspend a red light from my finderscope which I hope will make doing some sketching easier.

Many thanks for these 2 threads and all the ideas in them!

[Outbackmanyep]

You know what, if people started "SEE" what they're observing and not just "LOOKING" it can open up another avenue! DISCOVERY!

Could you imagine sketching a galaxy one night, coming back to it 3 months later and finding a "NEW STAR" poking out from it?? SUPERNOVA!

If more people not only wrote down what they saw but kept that record to check it against the same object days,weeks or months later they increase their chances of discovering something! HOW EASY!?

The 5 minutes it takes to DRAW an object.....could lead you to something big!

Why not take the time to make Variable Star measurements, EASY PEASY, and you'll be adding to a database and be recognised for your efforts!

So keep that in mind also when out observing!