Help of a different sort, please :D

[Esseth]

Ok, I must once again come and call in aid from IIS (it seems the more i read, see and hear about the more i want), however it is help of a different sort that I require this time….

I need to know any really great arguments to help me convince my other half to let me buy my first scope.

Went crazy with the research and thinking along the lines of an 8’ dob for $450/500ish I have seen them around so that’s not an issue, I just need help in convincing lol.

Help me become one of you :D

[erick]

1) Happy contented partner most of the time (except after a week of cloud)
2) She gets the bed to herself most of the night - no snoring to wake her
3) You would spend a lot more money gambling and drinking the night away
4) She knows where you are - out in the back yard.
5) Keeps your brain active - she won't have a senile old man to look after in the years ahead
6) Good resale value
7) Can introduce the children (?) to science early in their lives
8) Well, if it is not a telescope, it has to be a jetski/hot car/aeroplane/launch etc.

Easy!

[bmitchell82]

... the hobby is cheap ( belive it or not)

20k car. +insurance +fuel +rego +modifications +ect ect ect... 30+k later
5k international travel. lasts a few weeks with a few pictures for later :) great experience you get the travel bug... a few more 5k + trips... few more pictures and some memories
500 dollar telescope travel the universe (take photos as well) show your friends your neighbors who ever. meet some good people. sell it for a good price when you want to upgrade.! yeow!

I now do astro photography and all up im under 3k taking some nice photos! if i spent 20k ide have the rolls royce versions of most things! that would resell for about the same...

[lacad01]

I'm sure that once you fork out that for the scope and they look through it for the first time seeing Jupiter or Saturn or a cluster with they're own eyes and have their first "Oh wow!!" moment, the initial financial outlay will be forgotten or at least agreed to be well worth the investment.
Whenever my wife shakes her head at my latest acquisition, my standard comeback is "Well at least I'm not gambling, snorting or injecting it away":)

[mental4astro]

Hi there, Esseth,

Do you really, REALLY want to be like us? Joining the 'dark side' has its consequences.

An 8" scope can give a life time of faithful service, no pun intended. I suppose the main thing would be an assessment of your lifestyle & finances. The scope, along with a couple of good EPs would set you up for life. Apeture fever should not be discounted, so how disciplined are you?

Do you have a track record of jumping from one thing to another? This can be a real kicker!

If your better half can appreciate what you have achieved with the binos, it may be easier. My wife has known me for 12 years, all along with my astro thing. She still cannot understand my sniffing, injecting, drinking & the big bucks sunk into it.

Good luck, is all else I can offer.

[erick]

I just made one mistake - I once said "This will be my last telescope", but I said it two, going on three telescopes ago.

Don't ever say that!

[jjjnettie]

There's little advice I can give, having been there, and still being there.

Make a stand, let them know that you are putting aside some money each week to make this purchase. Maybe sell something of your own that you value, the money going towards your scope, that will show the amount of commitment you have towards the hobby.

I've found that if your spouse is actively against you being in this hobby, there is little you can do about it.
There are a couple of us here on the forum that have this problem. Maybe we should start a support group or something.

[Benno85]

My problem EXACTLY. My wife is so against it for some strange reason, and fair enough, I'm not forcing her to like it, but to simply respect what I like and not to put me down for it. I can't wait for my son to get a bit older, I feel the force is strong with him and at almost 3 he's already showing a healthy curiosity for what's up there.

Support group can be called AA, and I imagine it would operate similar to the Illuminati meetings!!!!

[jjjnettie]

Ben, I'll start a new thread on that rather than hijack Alan's.

[Benno85]

Do you have a seperate bank account? Probably a good idea to set one up, and have some of your wage go into it. Then, when a purchase is made, I usually "under quote" what I paid for it by a few hundred bucks.

Believe me, I know your pain mate!

[cohiba]

Alan
The best way is save a grand spend $500 on the scope and $500 on a new handbag and you will never here a beep

[Esseth]

Well when i think about it i have always been more in favor of the dark side than the light :P

But i have not really had a hobby in a long time, and through all the other things that i have been slightly interested i have always had an interest in science and space in the background, i just recently figured out that i could do something about it.



However, these are all great, i am compiling a list and i will perform an epic speech to convince her when she gets home.

[Jen]

Do you really want to do that :lol::lol: we are the sleep deprived people that hate lights and clouds :rofl:



:lol::lol: lol Erick i like your way of thinking :lol:
Oh and by the way i will have the hot car too thanks :D


Esseth take her to a viewing night somewhere that is close to you and next thing you will know she will be telling you to buy the 20inch :rofl::rofl:

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Alan,

I had an easy time when I looked at all the gear my kids had and all the "stuff" we had bought together like a dining room table setting which cost about $2K all up and is something WE NEVER USE.

Considering all the money tied up in everyday items and toys and games etc, I ended up saying to myself, jeez, if I can't spend $1500 on MYSELF to buy a 12" scope, then there is something SERIOUSLY wrong here.

The wife couldn't really argue with me on that one...

She still says "oh man, not ANOTHER astro accessory, when is it going to end?" when I decide to buy a new eyepiece or something though...

Still, worked for me, maybe try this. Not sure if you have kids though.

Cheers

Chris

[astro_nutt]

Hi Alan.
I should be so fortunate that I have a wife who does understand why I take off to pursue Jupiter rising or visit my dark sky site for a few hours..spend hours/days/weeks in my workshop trying to improve the optics etc...but I always remind her that SHE COMES FIRST cause sometimes you do have to sacrifice that clear night once in a while for the sake of peace..(and have a good cry after..LOL!!!)
But in your favor you will be part of one of mankinds oldest sciences, a noble and respected profession/hobby in the study of the heavens..by gaining understanding you will be recognized as a learnered collegue and partake in opening the minds of others, to show them the wonders of the Universe...(I know it's a bit waffled but I am exercising my poetic licence at this point in time)
Good luck Alan!

[erick]

You wish! I did that and she got insect bites on her ankles that took a month to go away. Never been out since, nor looked through a scope. Not good :sadeyes:

[hulloleeds]

Esseth, I lasted little over a month. 8" collapsible dob which was every bit convient and a great product. But, the taxeth man cometh and he say "here is some unexpected flashcash" and the fever struck.

I personally think an 8 isn't a great size for anybody with any potential for the fever. It is at the price point where you get it and think, oh, if only I'd have saved a couple hundred more I'd have a 10, same as a couple hundred more for a 12 (solid tube I'm talking). The difference between a 12 and 16 is enough that you wallet will calm your fever down. The difference between an 8 and 12 (space willing) is not especially expensive.

I had the opportunity to buy a 10" with an argo navis a couple of days ago or a new gso 12 and at the end of the day, despite the fact an AN would get me to places i probably couldn't normally, I realised "that little voice in the head" would torment if I did not appease the fever. So I went with the little voice. The little voice will never complain about hardships of locating an item, as that is a terribly manly thing to do, find items without a machine. :)

If you are stuck for cash like I was, it's easy to buy the 8 and be fine. But beware the unexpected flashcash, though, the fever will strike and you'll be selling that thing before you know it. It took me two weeks of ebay auctions to sell mine and I was selling it at a good price. I don't want to have to resell a big dob again, that wasn't fun.

[hulloleeds]

(I should point out that I don't want to sell a big dob again, but I will be next month when I buy my 16 :D)

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:

[Esseth]

Well guys and girls it worked! Ill be joining the dark side in about a month.

It was a great speech, so now ill just wait untill the BAS public viewing night to make sure i am thinking about the right scope for me before i buy lol.

I might get the fever, but that wont matter because i won't be allowed to upgrade until a birthday or xmas lol and 8' for a first scope is pretty decent.

Thanks heaps guys! IIS you now have me for life lol

[jjjnettie]

Heyyy! Congratulations.
Glad it all went well.

[erick]

Yep, an 8" kept me happy for ....well, almost a whole year ........ and then this 12" became available. :rolleyes:


Alan, go the second-hand market. Much the same as new, for significantly less money.

[Esseth]

Yeah the only problem with that is, because i am new to the biz i won't be 100% what im looking at in terms of quality and even if all the parts are there lol.

But i guess it can't hurt to look lol, i checked the classifieds forum on here, but there was not what i was looking for.

[jjjnettie]

There's plenty of IIS'ers in and around Brissie whom I'm sure wouldn't mind helping you.
All you have to do is ask.

[stephenb]

Alan, aside from the ol' "aperture rules" line, everyone here will also agree that, the best telescope for you is the one you will use the most and receive the most enjoyment out of, regardless of size, features etc.

[jjjnettie]

I used to have a 10" and downsized, am now quite happy using my 8" for both visual and for AF.
What you need to do is cultivate friendships with people who own big scopes and get your aperture fix that way.

[RobF]

I was going to recommend the resale arguement Alan, but it looks like you've already done the convincing! Anyway, Astro gear usually only depreciates about 30% if you look after it (which most people do very carefully), so you can always get most of your money back - not so with most hobbies.

In fact, don't forget to keep watching the classifieds here - if you buy a quality 2nd hand scope, its unlikely to lose much more value at all......

In fact, you MIGHT say it then cost nothing at all......:whistle:

[astroron]

Alan Come and join us at Cambroon Next Week or the "Barambah Dark Sky camp" the weekend after,to try before you buy:D

[jjjnettie]

Oh yes, that's the next stage of telescope ownership.
Accruing brownie points so you can attend all nighters with the boys (and girls).

[Blackant]

Hi Alan,

I've had an 8" Dob for a couple of weeks now and I have been blown away by how much I can see with it. Wrinkle ridges standing out like veins on the side of the moon, a whole galaxy 13 million light years away which gave me goosebumps when I realised what it was :scared: and of course countless double stars, open clusters and nebulas.

Of course, if I had 2 or 4 more inches I would see more and see the closer things in more detail. However, I'm still learning, and at the moment every night I go out I see something different or the same thing in more detail than before. My Dob is relatively easy to move, transport and carry and takes next to no time for the mirror to cool down (with a fan) before I can use it.

Sure, somewhere down the track I might get a bigger one, but I think there is gonna be a lot of stuff for me to see with this one for a while yet :)

p.s, I'm a little bloke and looking at solid tube Dobs online the other day I was a bit shocked to realise that a 12" one would be almost as tall as me and weigh half as much :eyepop:

I might have to factor in the cost of a pack donkey if I buy one :lol:

[Esseth]

Ha ha well next weekend is out as the other half has a friend coming up from Melbourne, so im trying to all supportive lol

Not sure about the following one, as i may have found a scope that is perfect for me and great value. but i might need the assistance of a Sydney based IIS member to check it out for me before i buy.

But i checked out the area on the map, looks like a nice place away from the CBD lights im used to lol

[hulloleeds]

You shame me, Sir. I had my 8" dob for about 5 weeks and saw this list of DSO objects:

47 tuc.

Makes the aperture fever all the more impressive - didn't even see anything worth complaining about before selling.

Esseth, bare in mind that any scope sold to you from elsewhere will incur quite substantial shipping (it would have been 50 to ship my 8 to melbourne).

In that event - and you consider new, it might be worth remembering that star optics on the gold coast have 8's at 550 and 600 respectively (solid tube, collapsible).

Another option is the andrews price of a guan sheng 8". I bring this up because now that I think of it, their 8, whilst 499 plus 50+shipping comes with accessories making it possibly worth it (5 eyepieces and crucially, a RIGHT IMAGE finder which would likely help a lot at the start).

[Esseth]

Yeah, i've been looking at york optical have a skywatcher 8' dob for 539, and they are only a block down the road from me lol

[hulloleeds]

Yeah, but I bet that york optical deal doesn't have 5 eyepieces, and likely comes with an inverted image finder :)

Despite the fact that they aren't great quality eyepieces coming with the scope, it's worth factoring in that you're likely to spend 30-150$ on cheap eyepieces just to begin with. With a skywatcher, you tend to get a 10 and a 25mm.

[Esseth]

I thought i was getting pretty up on the jargon, but i have not heard of "inverted image finder", damn it lol

Yeah im pretty sure it comes with the 10 and 25, now if i have done my math right that would make it 48x and 120x?

haha maths was so not my favorite subject in school

[DavidU]

An inverted image finder is just a finder scope that gives you an upside down image (the same as a lot of telescopes)

[hulloleeds]

Yep. I'm only a beginner, myself. I just know I took one look at jupiter at 120x and said "show me more". This required further hip pocket investment :) So, factor that into your cost. If you go second hand, you should go second hand because the price, along with the accessories make it a good deal.

Because, at the very least you're going to be compelled to buy a cheap barlow or something like a 6mm EP which runs you $30 minimum from andrews.

The reason I point out that right image is quite handy is that it can be very difficult for a newbie to look into an "inverted image" finder, which is mini telescope in itself and have all that patient studying of the night sky (ie, the stars and constellations) with the naked eye go out of the window when suddenly, you see a magnified inverted image containing a great number more stars than you saw unaided. A difficult adjustment, just when you think you're making headway.

Probably the worst thing, for me, through my skywatcher finder was that the really bright stars you see naked eye don't quite "stand out" as much as you'd hope, compared to ones only seen in the finder. This was the crux of my confusion, I basically "lost" the visable stars that I'd worked hard to isolate naked eye. I think that is just a confidence thing, though.

Anyway, I feel like a naysayer, my point really is only this: this is a money hole and if you're going to have trouble buying further accessories, best you get full disclosure on some items that will likely be desired. You will definitely crave more eyepieces. You will find the finder is a great mini telescope, but maybe not a great finder for a newbie.

[erick]

Way off topic! But let's just talk a little about finderscopes and their use.

The basic finderscope is a straightforward refractor telescope. It can be called "straight-through" and the view is upside down.

Here is a little information on image orientation:-

http://www.spaceref.com/telescopes/Image-Orientation-Why-Is-Everything-Upside-Down.html

In one way, when looking at the sky, image orientation doesn't matter - stars look like stars however you look at them. But looking at things down on earth, image orientation does matter. An upside down mountain/tree/car/surfer befuddles the brain.

Hence something can be added to the light path to correct that image so that the orientation that you see with the scope is the same as you see with unaided eye. This is the "erect image prism". It is often built into a "diagonal" which also bends the light path through 90 deg. But it can also be a "straight-through" prism.

Binoculars might look like a couple of joined refractors but, whether porro prism or roof prism design, they have prisms in them that "erect" the image and provide it "straight-through" so the image is the orientation that you see by unaided eye.

Where erect image is useful in telescopes is when you are searching through the sky. Then the image moves in the eyepiece as the "non-experienced" brain expects it to move. When starting out, this is much easier than an uncorrected finderscope - otherwise you find yourself pushing and pulling the scope the wrong way.

As I mentioned, an erect image prism is commonly used in conjunction with a 90 deg diagonal. This is the other common (and becoming more common) finderscope being supplied (called a "right-angle"). The 90 deg bend means it is easier to see the image at higher elevations - no twisting and turning the back to get your eye onto that straight-through finderscope.

Now, some find it hard to get the area of interest into the field of view of the finderscope (let alone the telescope!). This is where a straight-through finderscope is very useful. The clever method of use is to keep both eyes open. Then, as you train your brain, your eye looking at the sky also "sees" the finderscope cross hairs superimposed on the sky and you can move the scope to bring a bright star close to the cross hairs. When you do that, the star should have appeared in the field of view of the finderscope. My experience is that it sometimes very close and sometimes a bit off (depending on the internal alignment of the finderscope crosshairs and other bits) but you can soon learn how to get the first star of a "starhop" into the finderscope field of view. Of course, one can not use this technique with a right-angle finderscope.

I have an erect image straight-through finderscope which I find to be the best for me, except when trying to point the telescope at high elevations - ouch!

:)

[Robh]

I use an erect image finder but used to use a straight through one (inverted image). Intuitively, they are so easy to use. What I find amusing is when users of straight thru finders get all twisted up trying to use mine. :lol:

Regards, Rob

[mental4astro]

I too am a straight-through user. However, when I got my first 'big' apeture finder (40mm & over), the higher number of visible stars prooved overwhelming. Made my own erect image straight through out of a chopped pair of 7X50 binos, including adding the crosshairs to it. Did it after finding out the price of the off the shelf unit. This unit ended being cheaper than an inverted image of 50mm.

I also use an RDF mounted to a 76mm reflector finder in turn mounted to the back-end of my big dob. Very quick, for me anyway.

Both of these set-ups are on my dob.

[erick]

A reflector as a finder - not common. :)

[mental4astro]

Couple of reasons I used a reflector:

To use the Odyssey II you need to be up a stepladder to reach the EP, so the second finder down its back serves to reduce the number of 'up & downs' I need to do to find something, also when someone is at the EP & the object needs recentering I can do it without anyone needing to clamber up & down ladders.

The reflector finder also gives me the same image orientation as in the Odyssey, so if someone at the EP asks something, I have the same direction orientation view, meaning less mental gymnastics.

It also gave me the largest apeture for $ for a finder. Though the RDF did cut off any fat, :rolleyes:.

Another plus for the correct image straight through finder is when using the scope from home. Being in central Sydney, it is a must to use binoculars to find anything because of the light pollution. This finder then gives me the same image as in the binos used first to find an area/object. Oh, so much easier!

[erick]

All makes sense to me Alexander! :thumbsup: