Double standards

[toryglen-boy]

Well, last week i went to the Dept of Immigration, about applying for Citizenship etc. I work in the IT industry, and dont have citizenship (although i do have PR) and i see stacks of jobs i could do, and the last question i always get asked is

"Are you an Australian citizen"

to which i reply "no"

and i get "Oh thats a shame, you must be a citizen to apply so you can get security clearance". Part of my coming here (apart from endless medicals) was a full history, and character check up, for the last 12 years, including a written statement from New Scotland Yard in London reporting my criminal record (which turned out to be a blank piece of headed paper!) and a full background check on me for security (my last job in the UK was in the IT dept of the South West Police Headquarters, in Portishead Somerset, where i had to have rigerous background checks anyway for security reasons) since coming to Australia, i have had to submit the relevant information twice to the AFP again, as part of me going from Temp to PR.

I know citizenship is a priviledge, not a right ... and then this kinda thnig comes along, and just makes me so mad, as last week i was told by an immigration officer that "the rules apply to EVERYONE and cant be bent or modified to suit", well, it seems like all the blurb you get over the phone while on hold to speak to someone at immigration (and i have never been on hold for less than an hour) about "Welcome to Australia, where everyone is equal" and treated "fairly" is a load of old tosh, as it would appear some are more equal than others.

:mad2:

http://au.sports.yahoo.com/news/article/-/5893507/citizenship-plan-raises-hopes-skater

i dont know what sort of response i will get, posting this on here, with a forum full of Aussies :lol:

I just think regardless of nationality, its pretty sickening.


that is all

:P

[erick]

Another wingeing Jock! :D






How long before you can be "neutralised"? Oh my gosh - is it really four years now? Better stick with the jobs for non-citizens until then? The Australian Citizenship requirement should be in the advertising for the job - or at least - "Must be able to qualify for Federal Government security clearance". Or brush up on your ice-skating?

[toryglen-boy]

Hi Fella, yeah, its been changed to four years, and TBH, i think thats a good idea, make sure people really stick with it, ya know?

but this ....


pffftttt ....


:doh:

[jjjnettie]

That a darn shame Duncan. If it was up to me you be in like Flynn.
Guess they've got to weed out the wooses who can't stand the heat, the spiders or the snakes then want to go back to mama.

[astroron]

I agree with you Duncan, It unfortunatly happens in most countries USA AND UK ans Australia come to mind, having seen this over the years especialy sports people and people with money:mad2:

[toryglen-boy]

Thanks mate. i am happy to go the distance, and do the red tape, as i am quite left wing in my beliefs, and just kept thinking "everyone else has to do this, and thats how it is"

but now it would appear that if your good at Sports ...

i mean, out in the World, Australia is known for always punching above its weight, regarding sporting prowess, and rightly so, but at what cost? just ignoring a whole bunch of rules that where put in place to entice the right people, and protect the rights of native Australians?


its a slap in the face for democracy.

:mad2:

[toryglen-boy]

I know the UK did it years ago with Zola Budd from SA, and that was an utter disgrace as well.

Thats why i put the last line "regardless of Nationality"

:)

[erick]

Wish I could find a clip from "The Games" Episode "Immigration". Sadly not, but this one will have to do:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoBVWZmIMSo

[jjjnettie]

It's totally not fair.

[chrisp9au]

Duncan, Australian citizenship is worth any and all hassles!

You're right, it's a privilege not a right, it's not given, it's earned.

I'm a Pommie Aussie, became an Australian citizen in 1988, and am very very proud of the bit of paper that says I'm an Ozzie!

Cheers :thumbsup:
Chris

Note to moderators, we need an new icon, waving an Ozzie flag!

[PCH]

Yep, I'm with Chris....

and I have never even been back for a holiday in 20 years.

I've seen a couple of programs on TV (which MUST be for amusement value only - surely!) that show the famous whinging poms heading off back 'home' because the spiders are bigger and the sausages aren't the same etc etc.

I must say, that while I hate to hear people whinging - about anything, I always thought it was unfair to single poms alone out for whinging. I mean, - how do we know the Hungarians and Greeks aren't whinging about the same things as well ? They might well be, but of course, no one can tell ;)

In fact the only people that probably aren't whinging are the ones that sneak in the top end and seem to get their residency issues sorted out with some haste. Which brings me back onto Duncan's point. There might be a tip for you there Duncan. Get yourself a canoe and float offshore a bit and wait to get picked up by HMAS Unlimitedcash. Or sank ...depending on where we are in the budgetary cycle :P ;)

Hope it works out for you :thumbsup:

[stephenb]

I agree Duncan, it stinks. But welcome to Australia, where our sporting athletes are held up as pillars of society and given endless amounts of money and accolades.

Stick with it, because only once you are an Aussie citizen, the Scottish jokes will stop (how was copper wire invented?... etc etc). :whistle:

I'd rather 2 of you in exchange for some more of our useless citizens (our "Golgafrincham" useless 1/3).

[AstralTraveller]

Duncan,

It all looks totally fair to me. As far as I can see she is much better looking than you and will boost Aust. sporting profile... Surely that is all that matters. :P

Seriously, it's a crying shame when people who would be a credit to the country are excluded. I've seen it before. The last one I know of was a bloke from Mozambique who had just completed a PhD on a new type of welding (combined laser and gas). The technique is promising but needs more development. You'd think 'they' would want to keep him here, give him a post-doc and let him help Aust become the 'clever country' we are supposed to be.

On the other hand, and not to discount your experience, an Irish bloke I know who moved out here 3-4 years ago had a somewhat different experience. His comment was not about the rules but the attitude of immigration staff. He was standing in queues that were too long (as you do) and so had a chance to see how others were treated. He felt that as soon as he said he was from Ireland everything became much easier. Doors opened and processes flowed more smoothly than they did for others. That isn't right of course but he wasn't about to complain.

At least we aren't Switzerland. A bloke I know from there assures me you need to have relatives in an archaeological dig to get citizenship.

Finally (sorry about the rant), I'm glad they let my grandparents in, otherwise you wouldn't be reading this post.

[mozzie]

stick with it duncan its a great place to live and call home
mozzie

[DavidU]

I see where your comming from Duncan. My wife and I spent 2 years helping 2 friends of ours become citizens. The ammount of red tape and dicking around was woefull.
I hope you can be an Aussie. We need clever people.

[matt]

Hang in there, Duncan.

I went through the 'process' a few years ago and fully understand what you're talking about. I'd lived here 25 years before deciding to go through with it. Already a taxpayer....attended high school and uni here... etc etc

The hoops you have to jump through are quite extraordinary...and it feels like different people in the same department aren't talking to each other:mad2:

But I got there in the end and the day on which my citizenship was confirmed was bloody exciting! Well worth the effort and time invested.

I look at that citizenship certificate today, framed and hanging on my wall, knowing what it means to have been granted citizenship, and it's something I hold in massive regard and pride.

Just stick with the process. One step at a time. You'll get there eventually.

Good luck, mate.:thumbsup:

[Karls48]

Look at the bright side of it. Lot of countries require that you are resident for 10 years or longer before you can become citizen. I become naturalised it in 1973 and it was fairly easy. All what I have to do was to answer few questions about Australia and memorise Oath of Allegiance to the Queen.

[Fossil]

Hang in there Duncan, it's worth it in the end.

My Dad moved the family out here back in '66, and it was the best thing he ever did. I can't think of anywhere in the world I'd rather be.

Even holidays are spent here, we hook up the caravan and head off somewhere different. I can't wait until we retire and we can spend the rest of our days travelling this wide brown land.

[GrahamL]

I think imigration is a positive thing for any country , but Duncans point is a very valid one people are able to jump the line with ease these days and thats just not right.. I'll buy we need more tennis players and Ice skaters (we do have lots of ice here) granted citizenship because they .. um ..well .. I'm sure they bring something positive with them :)..

But the guy who has managed to keep his family safe and together in some god forsaken refugee camp needs that same roll of the dice that another who is cashed up enough to buy a way out gets .. I'm not sure that always happens.

[dpastern]

Well, I look at it as blatant discrimination, based on nationality. What should happen is thoes that are *best* fit for the job, irrespective of sex, religion, political beliefs, nationality, etc, are given a fair chance.

Whatever happened to the Aussie spirit of "fair go" I might ask?

I lay the blame to all of this firmly at John Howard's feet. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, he's a racist bugger. But then, as my dad would say, so are most Australians. Now, before you all go and chew my head off for this comment, consider this - my father was a migrant to Australia, and has had to deal with people deliberately not wanting to understand him for a long time (because of his accent). It seems to be some sort of fun game amongst many people. I'm sure Aussies are no different to other countries natives greeting migrants I might add. Discrimination is built into human nature unfortunately, and it's one of our uglier habits.

Dave

[TrevorW]

Brains before brawn if you ask me

the immigration policy of this country stinks

bring back Menzies

security wise everything went downhill after 911

[toryglen-boy]

nail. hammer. head

;)


Thanks everyone for your words of encouragement, its appreciated

:thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

I've got to agree with you on that David.
I live in a quite small town and the largest business, KPC, employs peoples from all over the world, Sudan, Korea, China the Phillipines to name a few.
I've seen so many cases of outright racism, it makes me ashamed to live there.

[Lumen Miner]

Good-luck mate, I hope it all works itself out. Sounds like an exhausting experience, it should not be.


If it was up me you would be straight in, no questions asked. :thumbsup:

[Fossil]

What I would like to know is who is going to support all the athletes when, in a few short years, they are burnt out? It is my firm belief that politicians are getting more short-sighted all the time.

[dpastern]

not everyone is racist. I wasn't trying to imply that. But a lot of people are, and do so without even realising it. One of my pet hates is people who have a go at others for speaking in public in another language. Apparently, it's un-Australian to do so. What about respecting someone else's culture? English is a difficult language to learn...

Dave

[multiweb]

:lol: Guys, I think you're leaving in a dream world. I've been reading this thread and I can't believe people may think australia is not tolerant towards migrants. For the record I've been living in different countries and mostly in Europe. Duncan, when you migrate into a country there's red tape to go through and extensive check ups. Same for everybody. Don't take it personal. BTW the hardest times I ever had to integrate was in the UK ;) . Australia welcomed me with open arms compared to my experiences there. I condemn any form of racism but the world is full of it. That's a fact. Doesn't matter where you go. I have an aussie mate who's been working in Japan for years now and he's routinely verbally abused. Here in Oz everyone's pretty layback and very welcoming. That has been my experience for the past 15 years I lived here. In a nutshell get out of Oz, travel a bit off the beaten track and see for yourself. :thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

Yes David, not everyone is racist, but there is an outspoken minority here that makes it very uncomfortable for the rest.

[AstralTraveller]

Racism also isn't evenly spread across the country. The fewer migrants in a place the greater the chance of racism. I used to work with a Chinese woman who, in her 12 or so years here, had lived in Melbourne, Adrelaide, Canberra, Townsville and Wollongong. She never commented about the first three but did say that in Townsville people looked at her different. Her daughter, who BTW was born here, had come home in tears saying she didn't want to have slanty eyes. Wollongong, she said, was completely different.

And how could it not be. This is a migrant city and everyone here knows people from all over the world. The post-war migration brought boat loads of (mainly) southern Europeans here to work in the expanding heavy industry. There are now grand children and great grand children of those people here. It's nothing to hear someone who sounds entirely Ozzie break into fluent Italian or Greek or whatever (mainly when speaking to older people). Recently we've had a lot of migrants from Asia, the subcontinent and the middle east and they are settling in perfectly well. Around here if you were going to discriminate on the basis of race you would be kept very busy.

[gman]

I am not a racist but I do believe in a sort of horses for courses attitude in relation to immigration.

I would much prefer to have someone like Duncan immigrate to Australia and be given citizenship through due precess than to have people from other countries who bring along with them their baggage and try to turn Australia into the country they came from.
(trying hard to stay within the forum rules)

I would be glad to have you aboard Duncan but we just need to clear up one thing:-
Now about answering yes to the "Have you ever been an axe weilding maniac" question.......:lol:

Good luck:thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

My family were originally from Wollongong. Living right next to the Steel Works in Cringella. In my brothers class, he was the only one who had English as his first language. Our neighbour across the road was a German lady, her family escaped from East Germany through a tunnel under the Wall. There were Greeks, Italians, Poles, Hungarians. Everyone making a small safe haven within the community. Keeping their values, their customs and most importantly, their cuisine alive.
Marvelous!

[AstralTraveller]

Ah yes, the food. I joke more than half seriously that the best way for a migrant group to be accepted is to open a restaurant. When I was young fast food meant fish and chips, hamburgers or pies. In the mid-seventies the anglos suddenly discovered pizza and pasta - yum. When the Vietnamese refugees arrived in the late 70s they seemed a weird mob. Within a couple of years there were 2 vietnamese restaurants in town and we found out just how civilised they really were. (If you make nice food you must be civilised - right.) Now the restaurant strip also has Thai, Korean, Indian, Iranian, Mexican etc etc. Culinary and cultural life is now so much better than it was.

Grant, apart from what I said about the city in general, where I work is like the UN. Yesterday I was given a lift to work by a Kurd from Iraq (he saw me at the bus stop). What I've found is that in things that matter people are really really similar. All parents love their children and want the best for them. People want democracy. They are just as honest and hard working as the rest of us. Mostly they don't bring baggage, they bring culture, just as my grandparents did when they arrived from Scotland. (Pipe bands still stir my soul.)

[gman]

Hi J, David,

I was more eluding to people who bring their political, social and religious customs/views to Australia and through shear numbers in an certain areas, as this is usually where the hostels are, take over the whole suburb.
All advertising, signage, shops etc are not in written in english.
Situations like these alienate the very people who the immigrants are meant to assimilate with generally forcing them to move out, self perpetuating the situation.

I grew up with the very same ethnicity around my home and at school and there were never these types issues.
Australians are very easy going and generally won't stand up for local issues unless it directley effects them.
I would hate to see a France, Holland etc type situation evolve.

[jjjnettie]

But I know where Grant is coming from with his post.
Again, it's only the very small minority who make it so much harder for the majority.
Amended....
We have China Town in the Valley, Brisbane, but that's about it. I've not the experience that you have.

[jjjnettie]

We've hijacked Duncans thread. I feel we should stop now before it's stopped for us. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the chat.

[toryglen-boy]

sounds like the making of a great street party!!

Fossil made a good point, what happens in 10 years when these athletes cant compete at the same level? will they be removed from the country, as they didnt go through the same process as everyone here?

TBH, i think it sullys the good name of Australia. Speaking as someone who is very well travelled, and lived on 3 continents, i can give an outsiders view on the land down under.

Australia, in the eyes of the rest of the world, is really quite an insular place, probably the most insular place in the world, people who are well known here and famous, are relatively unknown in the rest of the world (except your heavy hitters in the Sports, Music and the Arts etc) and TBH, thats not a bad thing, and only really comes about because geographically speaking, Australia is so far away from the rest of the world (anyone who has flown to Europe or the UK will testify to this, the plane journey in itself is harrowing at best, 23 hours in a seat) But, i dont think this is any bad thing, Australia is like the Switzerland of the Southern Hemisphere, its keeps itself to itself, and doesnt really get involved with fights, some 10 hours or so over open ocean, and i think its one of this country strengths, the multiculturalism has opened the door here for some great cuisine, wine etc. and growth. and the views here are pretty liberal, but at what cost?

Oz is known for its sporting prowess, you ALWAYS punch above your weight, and are known for producing a good athlete, and are lways competitive in good spirit, despite being the third least populated place in the world (per capita against area) and beaten only by two African countries, that sit mostly in the Sahara !!

But more importantly, Australia is known worldwide for its "True Blue, Fair go, give a guy a fair shake of the stick" attitude that has served it very well, this latest news, i think, go completely against some of the things, that this nation was founded on, and it sticks in my throat.

as i said earlier "everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others"

;)

[DavidU]

There are two things I hate, one is racism the other is immigrants. LOL
Seriously, I was one of 7 kids, we had a lot of friends from many different countrys always around, all ages, different religions etc. I had no idea what racism was until I got to high school. I still find it quite normal to have a wide variety of friends from all over the world,and I'm glad I do.
I think Aust would be a pretty boring place without the valuable input from immigrants

[jjjnettie]

[QUOTE=toryglen-boy;486918]sounds like the making of a great street party!!

Yes, the street parties!

[jjjnettie]

Unless you can trace your bloodline back 40,000 years to the first boatload to Australia, I reckon we're all immigrants.:lol:

[Baron von Richthofen]

Hi Duncan
Thank god your Scottish because of what I am about to say
The English exported the majority of convicts and the most unsavory guards they had to Australia to get rid of them, the worst immigrants you could think of
so I have a saying, What do you expect from a bunch of convicts

[dpastern]

Agreed.

Look, by nature, humans are racist. It's a broad comment that I make, but I stand by it. At least to some degree. Some are more tolerant than others, some aren't. Like most things in nature, it varies.

gman - a person is a person. Doesn't everyone deserve a fair go? Or do we pre-judge them on country of origin? How fair is that? How just is that? Does that make us any better than the tyrants they are escaping?

Dave

[stephenb]

And really, even the Aborigines are immigrants of some sorts. They migrated across southern Asia, island hopping.

[astroron]

Vars, your one eyed view of history is both wrong and very badly distorted
It was not only English convicts who where transported to Australia,they came from all the countries of the UK.
Also Brutality was the norm for most penal colonies all over the world.
A lot of convicts had done very little crime to get transported, but with the judicial system being as it was and the jails over flowing it was a solution to a problem.
Some of the best administrators and architects and other fields where former convicts.

[Octane]

All I can say is that I am so thankful to have been born in Australia. Thanks, mum and dad, for migrating, when you did!

This, seriously, is the best country in the world (even if I do want to move to New Zealand, lol).

Good luck, Duncan. I sincerely hope it all works out for you. :thumbsup: :)

Regards,
Humayun

[Fossil]

I'm not a racist... I hate everyone equally ;) :lol:

Once, in a previous life, I had cause to lock up an Aboriginal for a serious assault and I copped all the abuse in the world. There were far too many expletives used to relay what he said, but basically he called me a racist bast**d!

I calmly looked at him and asked "Since when has a***hole been a 'race'?"

He gave me a blank look for a moment and asked "What do you mean?".

I replied "I'm locking you up because you are an a***hole, not because you are Aboriginal!"

He didn't say another word after that :)

[Karls48]

After living in Australia (and in other two countries before) for over 40 years I have to defend born Aussies. They are not racist. Current (stupid) political correctness labels anyone who disagrees with some minority group philosophy as racist. Then it suddenly jumps to label same groups as terrorist when they cross some legal boundaries. Without realising that it was those groups philosophy the led to the crossing the legal boundaries in the firs place.
I’m yours typical Wog. I speak with fossilised accent and I never learn English grammar (as Ron and few others surely realised). As for spelling, I use spelling checker and I get at lease one red underlined word in every second sentence. I do admit those shortcomings to establish my credentials to judge if the Australians are racist or not. I have been called wog in distant past on occasion, but never in the way I would not interpret it as insult. It was more like – Hey mate you got still long way to go before you can call yourself Aussie.
Almost all of Europe, America, Australia, some countries in Africa and at least two Asian countries have their government and judicial system based on Judeo- Christian philosophy. Regardless that I have been atheist all my life (lately I admit to be agnostic) I can not deny that my moral values (or lack of it, from other groups point of view) is essentially based on Judeo – Christian religions.
What is called racism is a reaction of established majority against attempts of the minorities to change status quo.
To my experience, any one that comes to Australia and is prepared to accept Australians values and hopefully enrich it by their ethnic knowledge, experience and wisdom is welcome. Those who come here and hope to change basic philosophy of this country or those who want to use Australia as launching pad for the attack on their country of origin you better go back where you come from. We are Australians and we will not let you change what made this country great.
My only grieve with Australians. For God shake do not pay too much attention to the B S that is coming from USA and Europe.
As for Duncan.. Mate that four years wait is worth of it

[Fossil]

Hey Karl... what's wrong with a 'Fossilised' accent ??? ;)

[AstralTraveller]

If you said xenophobic I'd be more inclined to agree. Racism is based on ignorance and the best cure is exposure to people of other races.

[toryglen-boy]

isnt it wierd? the differences in language and culture? i have heard people here say "wog" and its a word that i find deeply, deeply offensive, almost as offensive as other words that i would NEVER use in any form of communication, spoken, written or otherwise.

what a strange and wonderful world we live in.

:rofl:

[AstralTraveller]

There is nothing harder to shift than an ingrained accent, especially a Scottish accent. My grandmother arrived at the age of 14 and lost her accent completely. Grandad arrived at 18 and never lost it. He died at 84 and was still so broad that my wife had trouble understanding him. I also know another family where the older children never lost their Scots accent but the younger ones sound completely aussie. My German mother-in-law arrive when she was 20 and still has a bit of an accent but not that much. (With her you can understand the words - just not the logic :shrug: And, yes, my wife would agree).

[toryglen-boy]

i sound very Scottish, think Billy Connolly, with Gerard Butler, and a hint of Ewan McGregor. i will never lose my accent, and i wouldnt want to, its part of me. If we go shopping and go to the mall food court for lunch, my partner has to ask for something for me, as they cant understand, especially at Gloria jeans. But then again, i speak Scots English, where the vowels ahve different sounds, i say "ey" as "a" whereas Aussies say it as "ee", you would say "Syd-nee" and i would say "Syd-nay"





FREEDOM !!!

:lol:

[Fossil]

He he... Duncan, don't ever watch an episode of Kingswood Country then :lol:

[toryglen-boy]

Kingswood Country?


:shrug:

[Fossil]

It's an old TV show (1970's) starring a grumpy old bigot named Ted Bullpit (Ross Higgins), whose daughter was married to an Italian. Poor old Ted never could warm to his 'wog' son-in-law who drove a purple valiant.

Worth a look if you ever get a chance to watch an episode ;)

[toryglen-boy]

Ah thanks for that, we had something like that in the UK that i can jsut remember, as i was a wee boy when it was on.

"Love they neighbour"

at the time it was funny, although now when you see it, its absolutely appaling !!

:lol:

[Fossil]

Apparently, Kingswood Country is available on DVD.

Here is a link to some of his 'quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078637/quotes)'.

[Fossil]

I remember it well, and On the buses, Curry and chips, To the manor born, Some mothers do 'ave 'em, Keeping up appearances... I still reckon you can't beat pommy humour.

[stephenb]

Brilliant show, although dated noow, it was an extention of the beginnings of multicultural Australian television.

A common term of the day for the valliant was the "wog chariot". I don't know if it still gets used.

I went to school in the NW 'burbs of Melbourne with many Italians, Greeks, Turks and Lebanese. They all collectively called themselves wogs and everyone was even comfortable for the Skips to call them wogs.

Same goes for "Pom". I will use that phrase when I work with my pommie work collegues - even they use the term.

I think Australians use words like "wogs" and "poms" as terms of endearment, almost affectionate, and they are not intended to be or sound racist or polotically incorrect.

[stephenb]

And the best of them all - "Mind Your Language" - but bloody funny. Should be more of this classic TV.

[cohiba]

Duncan Im not with you here if you are a permanant residant as I have been for 26 years why can't you get citezenship ? you are intitled to it after being a PR for 2 years thats the law in fact the govenment encourages you to do it

[Fossil]

I'd forgotten about Mind your language... brilliant.

Woo Hoo, it's beer o'clock. Time to pick SWMBO up and head home.

[AstralTraveller]

I think 'wog' started as an insult but when the 'victims' started to use the word and take it over it lost its impact, though I still wouldn't use it. There was a movie made a few years ago about a Greek kid growing up in ?Melbourne? called Wog Boy. A lot of self-depricating humour which of course ozzies (and poms, scots & Irish) really enjoy.

[Baron von Richthofen]

When is said England I meant Great Britton and my comments are from personal experience when I was younger
I thought that was all behind me but I was wrong, it seems that if you are a nice guy nearly everybody wants to put you down, (I am not from Australia or English speaking country)
It seems if you are not a beer swilling football fanatic you don't fit in Australia

[astroron]

What can I say:shrug: Life is not perfect and some people have a harder time than others.
As a Pommie guy, I have had a good life in Australia, and as far as I am concerned would not live anywhere else:thumbsup:
PS
I have taken a lot of stick over the years for being a pom, but give back as much as I take:D

[mac]

Immigration into New Zealand can also be difficult, but is known internationally to be more lenient than Australia. So a lot of people get NZ citizenship and then move to Australia.

My wife and I dealt with immigration in the UK (for a skilled migrants' visa), and they were terribly awkward to work with too. However, one of my regrets in life was not staying long enough to get British citizenship. There's nothing quite like an EU passport!

A New Zealand passport goes a long way (further than an Aussie one), but an EU passport is IMHO the 'holy grail'. Live and work without visas anywhere in the European Union...mmm...

[dpastern]

Yes, you are correct. I was going to use xenophobic (well xeno-something, couldn't remember for the life of me the whole word lol). xenomorph kept coming into my head!

I agree about culture. If only we took the time to talk to people from other culture, smile, laugh, things would be better. How many people still look at people of Middle Eastern descent with suspicion? I see it all the time. How about giving them a genuine smile or saying hello?

Let's consider Howard's changes to citizenship testing - completely unnecessary and squarely aimed at people of Middle Eastern descent I might add. Howard deliberately flamed xenophobia and created panic amongst the idiotic, non thinking general populace who wouldn't stop to think about something if it hit them in the head. Oh, and Menzies wasn't any better - he preferred a white supremicist Australia. Revolting. We're all one species, you'd think that a mature species would be capable of co-existing with others of its same species irrespective of looks, age, sexual preference, political preference/opinion etc, but alas...I'm dreaming.

Dave

[dpastern]

My dad has a strong German accent (quite often he is mistaken for being a Scotsman lol). It's not the accent, it's the attitude of people. If you take the time to listen, and listen carefully, with 100% attention to the person speaking, you'll find that you can understand them better. Maybe not perfect, but better. I used to work with a lovely Scottish girl who had a lovely, but very strong accent and it took me a very determined month to really catch on to everything she was saying. After that, I had no issues. True, in a random encounter, you don't have that opportunity, but still, I see many people having deliberate issues with accents.

Dave

PS for some reason people keep asking me if I'm a New Zealander or Irish - probably because I roll my vowels, much like you would in Gaelige in many instances.

[dpastern]

Now you're bringing back fond memories. Pickle me grandmother! Loved Kingswood Country, simply brilliant Australian comedy, one of the best we've produced imho. Not the Kingswood! I must get it on DVD :)

Dave

[AstralTraveller]

Indeed. Lots of folk even get born there just so they can emigrate to Oz. :poke:

:whistle::whistle:

[hulloleeds]

I'm a permanent resident. Have been for 10 years. Have experienced the same thing regarding jobs as Duncan. Have deduced that up until now, it was vastly more important to my saturdays that I not be required to compulsory vote. It's almost like a superpower :)

[MrB]

It's not just Australia,
I can't get UK citizenship because it's my mothers family that is from the UK, not my fathers.
My grandad on my mother's side(her dad) and everyone before him were born in the UK.
But I don't qualify..... UNLESS, I was born after 1985.... then my mothers family does count.... ahhh, why 1985? Who knows!

My brother had no end of trouble, finally he was allowed an Ancestral Visa.

[gman]

Dpastern,
I don't recall saying that immigrants can't have a fair go. What I am saying is that different cultures need to assimilate into the community, not take over small patches.
I guess you have never visited places like Springvale or Footscray in Melbourne - For memory, Punchbowl and Bankstown in Sydney are very similar.

[dpastern]

Does it really matter if they have their own smaller communities within ours? Talk about intolerance.

Dave

[jjjnettie]

Lisa Curry was just talking about this immigration issue. She is totally against fast tracking athletes through the process.
You have an Aussie training for the Olympics or Commonwealth Games, then they import another to take their place. All that training for nothing.
Damn Pollies are only concerned about winning.

[matt]

Like the tolerance you showed toward that Victorian pollie who got lost for a few days during a bushwalk?:lol:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49539


Cheers.

[toryglen-boy]

This has been a very interesting thread, and one thats been very well maintained, and in good spirits, although i think i has went a bit O/T

So there you have it. if you can run or ice skate really well, then you get instant citizenship, even over those who cant apply for 4 years, and contribute more to thier local community over that time frame


:)

[dpastern]

Sorry Matt but I simply have no tolerance or pity or care for politicians. Nothing is ever going to change that. They are a waste of space imho.

I have all the time in the world for other cultures and other languages and other peoples. One is useful in this world, the other one isn't.

Dave

[FredSnerd]

Hey Jeanette, great post.

Well I thought I might fly this flag and see where it leads. But first I need to get a few things out of the way so we dont have to waste time on them later. (i) I love living in Australia (ii) Yes I feel lucky to be an Australian citizen and (iii) no I don't particularly want to live anywhere else (though I sometimes love holidaying elswhere).

In my respectful opinion we are all citizens of the world and I have no right to tell anyone where they can live and no one has a right to tell me where I can live.

One thing thats clear to me from reading this thread is that we all have a very different notion of what makes a person "undesirable". Some people you wouldnt let into the country I might think would make great citizens and vice versa. Its silly really to have immigration rules because if we ever sat down to actually discuss who we should weed out and who we shouldnt we would never agree.

I can see you saying, what about criminals and terrorists etc, we would all agree to keep them out. OK, first the citizens of every country have their fair share of criminals and terrorists etc. Citizenship does not make us immune from that. Secondly your immigration laws may stop some "criminals etc" comming here but they will go elsewhere and some that are stopped elsewhere will get in here (the world goes round). When we find criminals and terrorists among us the right way to deal with them is to use the criminal law. Trying to screen them from comming in is hopeless, it doesnt work (the biggest and worst criminals get in easily) and it can be the worst thing because in the globalising world the most effective criminal acts are committed at arms length.

I remember a story from a few years back about "stateless people". "Stateless" it means you have no citizenship. That is, although you were born on this earth you do not have a right to live anywhere on earth. I think thats absurd.

OK, I think thats enough for starters. See what responses we get if any.

regards

[dpastern]

Most of the "terrorism" comments are BS imho. It's just an excuse for governments to monitor the populace and spy on us, restrict our freedoms etc. Of course governments want to brainwash the ordinary populace into believe that we're at high risk of terrorism etc. It's in their benefit to control us.

Dave

[matt]

No worries, Dave.

It's just my belief that you can't be selectively tolerant...

As far as pollies go, I understand where you're coming from, but again, must preach a little moderation.

I have met, interviewed, got to know, many types of political animals over the many years I've worked in the media. Many fall into the category into which you have the entire bunch pidgeon-holed...but there have also been many exceptions. I've met (and know) many who get into the caper for very altruistic and decent reasons, only to be ground down by the party machine or thwarted by the ever-changing mood of the electorate itself.

Were they weak? Were they misguided in their belief that they could effect change from within? Perhaps.

What I do know is they are our most obvious hope of 'getting things done' within the confines of the democracy which exists, and surely are a better alternative than not having elected representatives.

There's good and bad in all walks of life, as you very well know, and it's not fair to brush an entire group of people because of the failings of those among them.

Cheers...and all the best.

[DJDD]

how is that two posts:
- one about the hassles of a member of IIS trying to become a citizen of a pretty good society
- and one about a potentially tragic story with a happy ending (the lost then found Vic minister)

become threads with extreme political rantings and the like?

a bit of tolerance and fewer B&W views of the world we live in and maybe threads would not be locked and feelings (possibly) hurt.

maybe a box of chill pills are in order...:P

[Karls48]

And that goes for almost any country in the world. Almost none of current inhabitants are the original settlers. There is a lesson in it – Pull together or you are going to loose what you got.

[dpastern]

Fair enough point Matt. I guess we all have personal prejudices and mine have shown up here.

Politicians dictate policies such as immigration laws, and our previous government has been extremely prejudiced against foreigners. In the early years of the Howard government, I worked for Centrelink and I saw the changes that occurred with the Howard government, and how it affected foreigners and newly arrived immigrants, including refugees. It wasn't pretty.

At the moment, most western countries are racially discriminating against anyone of a middle eastern or Islamic origin, by deliberately altering immigration acceptance at a policy level. Worse, we're seeing the general public get carried away with political lies that meet hidden agendas, because they are ill informed, or just simply racist. As I said in an earlier post in this thread, how many people give dirty or suspicious looks to those of middle eastern appearance today? I'm just picking one example of bad political policy.

I feel sorry for people like Duncan who get screwed by idiotic laws. The sad thing is that most western countries are going the same route as Australia. It doesn't help that our laws are heavily influenced by Christian beliefs, which are discriminatory to most other religions I might add.

DJDD - I find it amazing how people have such thin skins. You're basically having a go at me because I've made several statements etc, which you dislike/disagree with, so you choose to publicly belittle me by saying "rant", and then you have the rudeness to shove "intolerance" in my face? Oh please. Pot meet kettle.

Dave

[DJDD]

Hi Dave,

no thin skin here. I don't dislike/disagree with your comments- its an open forum (with some restrictions). In fact, some of your comments I agree with and some I don't. I can understand your frustration at the present system of government and society, especially when you feel that so many or our citizens are just following along blindly instead of opening their eyes to reality.

sorry that you got the impression that I am having a go at you or belittling you. That was not my intention. As usual, the impersonal nature of the internet gets in the way.

Of course, my comment was related to the very political tone that has been set by you and others . The intolerance comment was not directed at you but at some other posts about whether we should accept or pay for the risky behaviour of others.

overall, I was surprised that two fairly innocuous threads had become so very politicised, with extravagant but heartfelt comments made in posts.

peace out.

cheers,
DJDD

[FredSnerd]

Hi DJDD

Well you know the immigration issue is a bit like that. It is pretty political. I'm surprised you are surprised.

[DJDD]

maybe...
I was commenting on two threads at the same time, which muddied the waters.

[astroron]

"Muddy Waters"
That sometimes happens when threads get sidetracked and they loose their original purpose.

[DJDD]

isn't that a song ?
:)

[toryglen-boy]

No, Blues player

;)

[FredSnerd]

Hey Duncan, I was in Glasgow once, many years ago, loved it. You're not related to that guy Macbeth done in all those years ago by any chance. Messy business.

[DJDD]

ah yes, just wiki'd it. what a wonderful thing is wiki.

[astroron]

And a great one at that:cool::cool::cool:

[dpastern]

Tis cool DDJD - I misunderstood your earlier post, my apologies.

Anyways - Duncan - I hope you get naturalised really soon. Australia can always do with decent people.

Dave

[Jen]

:lol::lol: yes we sure do ;) but we have this one this is close enough :lol:
:gday::rofl:

Opps back on track :) good luck Duncan ;)