A General-purpose USB controller for the Obs

[mldee]

The increasing sophistication of scopes and mounts under PC control really facilitates the ability to be inside with your family while still busily photographing that elusive new supernova!

After posting my comments above on the PWM dew heater controller, I got to musing over the lack of a low cost USB-based remotely-controllable general purpose "box" that one could build or buy to manage all the little jobs needed to take care of an observatory, especially to remotely monitor and control them from your warm house on a cold winter's night.

Focusing, various temp and dew monitoring functions, voltages, Camera cooling, filter switching, lighting, security, etc.

IIS members also need easy access to the simple brackets, motors and metalwork bits to bolt to your scopes to make things actually happen, such as electric focus, dew heating, etc.

The really fancy jobs are already taken care of; Camera control, mount control, Goto, etc, yet the simple tasks mainly still require you to stumble out to the obs, unless you want to spend gobs of money:scared:.

My concept is for a simple "open-source" approach to designing a "modular" USB-controlled box with various off-the-shelf functional kits inside. You only bought the 'kits' to do what you wanted, but could add more kits and functions later if you wished, with the fundamental objectives of low cost and simplicity:D; either build it yourself from a kit of instructions, or buy one ready-made from a member who may like the pocket money to build and test it for you.

Project members' skills that would be needed include sourcing the basic electronic kits from established suppliers, simple CAD metal bracket design and fab, simple programming, testing, documentation and some basic organisational aspects for the joint effort. I don't see this as a manufacturing project, more a means of putting together info and available items that will do the basic functions.

I may be way over ambitious in my estimation of IIS members' needs and abilities, but I thought a post to see response may be worthwhile.

[bert]

I know this has been used successfully in a isolated remote observatory.

http://www.oceancontrols.com.au/controllers/kt5220_usb_io.htm

Seems to work very well.

Brett

[kinetic]

Here's another. This one is a Vellerman kit with 2 analogue inputs/5 digital inputs
for monitoring and several outputs:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KV3600

Steve

[mldee]

My thanks to both Steve and Brett for the helpful inputs:).

Yes, these are the types of "off the shelf USB controller kits" that I was referring to as being the heart of the 'box'. Customising their functions and developing an obs-related PC user interface, plus the hardware trivia such as boxes and brackets needed to make them useful as an observatory-specific product, is the objective. Tandum's and other's posts on the Dew heater project were also indicative of the interests others have in this direction:thumbsup:.

What my post was more trying to do was to see if there were enough members interested in cooperating in doing this basic groundwork to make these units into a simple but useful astronomy resource that other members could read about and purchase via the project, without having to endure all the effort and frustration involved in development of the observatory-specific functions.

In other words, the writing and testing of those little bits of software, designing and making those little scope attachment brackets, locating suitable low power 12V motors, etc, would all be done by the group one time, instead of the haphazard 'wheel re-invention" that is the present status quo in our pastime.

Something that any IIS member could purchase through the group with the knowledge of what useful functions it did, and that with on-line IIS member assistance, he or she didn't need to be a rocket scientist to put it together and use:P. There have been similar helpful simple one-man projects done here before, such as the EQ extender bar, which stimulated my interest. Steve Mogg's website is another for-profit example of specialised items. Good on him for having the machining skills to do it.

Obviously the 'box' I am talking about is a little more than one man would be expected to develop, especially on a non-profit basis,:eyepop:hence the idea of a joint "open-source" project.

With volunteer skills jointly doing the various development tasks, the simple locally-available hardware components become the major cost item, and one would expect a simple multi-purpose 'remote observatory control box' could be available to IIS members for a few hundreds of dollars, not thousands:scared:, with the objective of leaving the user with more time to better enjoy and develop their astronomy skills. If you notice I keep using the word 'simple' that's because this project really is, if a few people with the right skills cooperated in developing it.!

I should make it clear, though, that "remote" means in your back yard, not 1500Km away:D! At least in the basic system as envisaged:whistle:.

Anyway, I won't ramble on further if there is insufficient interest, just thought I'd plant the seed of of an idea for something simple that is presently totally unavailable to most members, me included.

[kinetic]

Mike,

I would just LOVE this idea to work.
I love the ATM spirit of sharing an idea and broadcasting it for
all to see.
Mel Bartels is one true example of the spirit of this concept.
His idea has been spread far and wide and copied often.
He expects no royalties. he still runs forums and gives advice.

Other people, quite openly, make money selling very close
copies of his concept. It's hard to prove who dreamed it up first.
He runs a small mail order business too. Good on him, he deserves it.
I wish the world had more people like Mel.

I could contribute with the electronics side.
I'm competent in the mechanical side enough to make remote
door openers or dome rotators...rain detector...dome lights on/off
You name the function...

I can program in VB and C
I fall down in really good programming. Others could step in here.

As far as open source ideas:
ASCOM is a great example. Anyone can contribute a driver
or layer to the system to add functionality. Even USB now.
If I were you I would go and research the ASCOM database and
platform before going any further.

The ASCOM initiative is purely the same spirit of project.
Someone dreams up a function they want added.
Someone designs the 'smart box'
Someone adds the driver to the platform to 'welcome that device
on board'

Away you go....

Steve

[mldee]

Thanks Steve for the very informative reply.
If this ever does gel into a DIY group project for IIS members, we'll count you as member #1 :welcome:

I'll take your advice and research the ASCOM approach, I use EQMOD and love it, although with our much smaller numbers here in Oz, I presume we would be aiming a lot lower in our expectations, but then again, the objective is a lot simpler as well.

Who knows, perhaps other astronomy groups may also wish to participate, it doesn't have to be IIS-centric, although that's where it starts.

BTW, my background is also in electronics, but as a bit of an old fart, I would expect the really bright ideas to blossom from the more recently-educated members.

A second major skill needed is the ability to design and fabricate the small bits of bracketry etc that may be required to affix motors, switches, etc to various types of scopes and accessories, etc. This is an area where I have absolutely no skills, but without these items, the end users are unable to achieve their goals.

Anyway, let's wait and see if there is sufficient IIS member interest to justify further dialogue, and if so we'll move on from there.

[ChrisM]

Mike,
I like the concept of a GP USB controller. I'm a very recent addition to the observatory owner's list, so I expect to be becoming more interested in these add-ons, especially once I get up and running properly.

I look forward to more discussion, and if possible, contributing somehow.

Chris

[mldee]

Hi Chris,
Thanks for the input. If we can get 4 or 5 heads, I feel we could at least start sounding out some ideas and take it from there, it doesn't need a cast of thousands to get started.

I'll get back to you and Steve later this week after perhaps a few more have had a chance to consider joining in.

BTW, it doesn't really have to be specifically for observatory use, I imagine it could have significant usefulness to many others as well.

Cheers,

[hikerbob]

Mike I'm interested (depending on the direction it takes).
I've floated the idea of a general purpose mosfet power stage with Sparkfun and have been doing some tinkering with a PCB layout for one. So far my interest is to tidy up the power stage of my dew heater but I've got some other things in mind as well. If I do my own PC board I might look at throwing an ATMega chip on board and rely on an external serial to USB breakout board.

I've also been eyeing off some of the touchscreen/LCD modules available as a control interface for some projects I'm considering. I've not thought much about the main control coming via a USB but I'm guessing that it might still be useful to have local control. I've not worked out yet just how much I'd have to spend to get a decent sized module for that and for astronomy purposes some thought would have to go into what light the LCD used.

You might want to have a browse around sites such as sparkfun.com and the Digi-key site. I'm not sure if this does PWM but it's otherwise interesting http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=658-1038-5-ND

I've done some thinking about using Dallas 1-wire components for distributed control and may get back to looking at that some more. There seems to be some quite interesting devices in that range which might be great for reducing the amount of wires which need to go back to a main control point.

Bob

[mldee]

Hi Bob,

Thanks also for the input, seems like there is a nascent interest out there for some sort of unit to take care of basic astronomy operation and housekeeping functions. Interesting that such an item does not seem to be readily available too, at least at an affordable cost.

As I mentioned earlier, I'll give it another day or two for further expressions of interest, then get back to all responders.

I've been following your Dew heater thread, you are way ahead of my abilities, it's good to see interest from someone with an up to date technology outlook.

I'll get back to all probably on Thursday evening. If enough interest is shown, we can then kick off with some discussion over the following days of what functions we all think are useful, and examine the various implementation approaches that are 'doable' with low complexity and a reasonable cost, but expandable as new ideas evolve.

Cheers,

[hikerbob]

Mike it's been an interesting learning curve. I used to play with electronics many years ago but a lot has changed since. I'm loving some of what's becoming available at relatively low costs.

Bob

[kinetic]

I got one of these today and I'll have a play with it.
Comes with the DLL for use with VB , Delphi and C++!!!

Too many ideas...not enough time! :)

I'll keep you posted.

Steve

[mldee]

I did a Google on Vellerman last night, they have some other interesting kits as well. Sparkfun.com also is of interest.

Looks like we have about 4 or 5 prospective participants, that should be enough to at least let us put some ideas together and perhaps come up with an initial objective and plan forward.

One other area that is of some importance is small metal fabrication, such as mounting brackets for various scope/focusers, switches etc.

I'll get a post out tomorrow for general discussion points and perhaps we can exchange thoughts tomorrow night.

Cheers

[hikerbob]

Mike I'll be out tonight (we are doing a viewing night with a school).

Bob

[mldee]

OK, no problem Bob, it just means you will have the luxury of reading all the other related posts when you get back, so that you can make more relevant comments than the rest of us :)

Cheers,

[hikerbob]

Mike a couple of points
- Possibility of providing control signals either by wireless and or wired ethernet. I've got a USB extender which can use cat 5 cable to send USB signals up to 60M (I think) but it would make sense to be able to use real network connectivity.
- Provision for some type of networking back to a master unit for remote sensors and or controls. Preferably one that does not require eveything to be directly wired back to the master (1-wire can handle extra stations added to the end of a line but I don't know if it's fast or versatile enough for all purposes)

Bob

[mldee]

OK, Bob, Points taken.

I just came back inside to get started on my post, so will try to get the most salient points at this stage into some sort of order for discussion.

Cheers

[mldee]

Hi all,

So far we have had expressions of interest in participating in developing this unit from Kinetic (Steve), Bert (Brett), ChrisM (Chris), Hikerbob (Bob), and myself, mldee (Mike).

First off, I'll reiterate the basic concept as discussed so far;

The perceived need for a simple and low-cost USB-based controller, (The IISbox?) to take care of the general astronomy and housekeeping tasks involved in doing general hobby-level astrophotography using a "remotely located" backyard observatory. Remote means "from your living room or such"

Tasks that come to mind include:

1 - Remote focussing of multi-telescopes with reasonably accurate focus status and limits.

2 - Remote sensing and control of temp, humidity and dew heaters.

3 - Remote monitoring and if necessary, control, of home-brew cooled camera systems, including possible development of a simple generic TEC system and controller.

4 - Remote monitoring of various supply voltages and chargers, IP-based security cameras etc.

5 - Alarms and reporting for various functions that may cause damage if ignored, including unauthorised entry.

6 - Various simple switching and controls as desired to do such things as operate Roll-off roof motors, air circulation fans, lighting, etc.

7 - Integration of the unit into a simple home LAN, wired and wireless.

8 - Possible future integration into commonly used scope control systems such as ASCOM.

What is it NOT meant to do: Anything that can be easily bought or done at the moment with existing items. This includes mount control and goto, camera control functions, image processing, sky charts, off the shelf scope adaptor hardware, breadmaking, etc, etc.

The intent is to fill the hole for items that are difficult or impossible for the average home-based astonomer to find or easily build.

We don't really want to get into investing loads of our time in circuit and board design, testing, etc, so the intent is to wherever possible, use off-the-shelf electronic assemblies such as electronic kits, etc, and integrate them with some accompanying simple PC-based control software so that the basic functionality above can be achieved. If a function can't be done with this approach, we probably shouldn't include that function in our first attempt.

Doesn't sound overly elegant, does it? But I believe it's the most cost-effective way to quickly achieve most of the objectives without spending excessive hours and needing PhD's to make it work. And the intent is a la Mal Bertel's;

Labour's free, the skills are free and the knowledge is free. Nobody get's paid or gets any rights to the item, me included. There will obviously need to be some form of organised approach to providing the finished unit concept to interested users, but we'll discuss that further down the line. We have enough on our plate now just to get the thing off the ground.

It may well be that as the project progresses, others may wish to join, great, and it may well be that as other ideas and skills become available, a bigger and more sophisticated approach may later become viable. I hope so, because it will mean that the initial objective has been reached successfully. But for the time being, it's a 'Keep It Simple' approach to start off.

BTW, skills needed in the group will include simple electronic integration, simple PC skills including basic LAN knowledge, simple programming in VB, C++, etc, some general aesthetic skills to see if we can make the thing look at least presentable in its final form, basic technical documentation, basic machine shop design/fabrication and large loads of enthusiasm and common sense.

I have electronic and PC/LAN skills, live in the west of Brisbane, am retired and have plenty of time on my hands (If you haven't already guessed!)

Time frame? I would guesstimate that a working breadboard of basic functions should be available for beta test in 3-4 months, subject to manpower and enthusiasm.

Enough from me, I'll leave it open to the floor for comments, suggestions and new ideas.:welcome:

[kinetic]

Mike, all,

an update on the Jaycar USB Experiment Interface Kit (K8055). (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KV3600)
I put one together today on the day off. $62 scobes with a tradie card :)

I think this is definitely a good starting point for the
'smart box' concept. It has enough functionality to add lots
of gadgets to the remote Observatory.
At the very least, one good option anyway.

A few pics and some feedback...

* An easy kit to solder for the moderately confident solderer.(PIC 1)
* A nice layout board. (Techos will note that it's based around
a PIC 16C745 Microcontroller)
* Lots of feedback LEDS, LEDS for outputs, Pushbuttons for inputs.(PICs 2 & 3)
* All duplicated as terminal connectors as well.
* Addressable...I assume you could have 4 of these working simultaneously.(PIC 4)
* Velleman kits are well documented...easy to identify parts and
layout.

Now, the testing:

I had the option of powering it via the USB port (just for testing) by
leaving 2 jumpers in place.(PIC 4) You can power it externally also.
I also had the option of adjusting the 'gain' of the 2 analogue
inputs via a selection of resistor values.(PIC4 also)

Simply put, lets say you use one analogue input to read a thermistor
to measure temp. Selecting a resistor here gives you a meaningful
voltage value for displaying the temp.

The other inputs are digital, there are 5 of them.
You can turn them on and off with momentary pushbuttons (5) PIC 3)
Or you can do the same via switches wired to the terminals (a dome
door close limit switch for example)

You can also toggle any of the 5 Digital inputs directly from the
software demo display (PIC 5)

You can see from the output leds and the software that I have OUTPUTS 3,4 and 6
turned on.

You also have a 2 PWM outputs (great for a DC motor focus control for example) (PIC 5)

To summarise, I think this is a great experimenters prototyping board.
The DLL is supplied , as are some VB, C and Delphi examples on the driver disk.

PS: Great points Mike, I read your dot points....exactly the functions I have
in mind... Still to test this via remote desktop. I can't see why it wouldn't work
via RD.Edit: works like a charm! :)
PPS... and its Mel Bartels BTW :P

Steve

[bmitchell82]

I used to be a Data Cabler if that is any help. let me know of any questions that you need to figure out with data transfer hardware.

Brendan

[bmitchell82]

Nice work steve,

what was being measured/read in the program gui?

[DavidU]

I think this project is going to come up well.

[kinetic]

The potentiometers on the board Brendan (pic4)

Steve

[mldee]

Thanks, Brendan, appreciate your comments and offer.

Since tonight is really the first night for throwing the whole concept on the table, I'll sit back and lurk a bit and respond later in the evening, but yes, it's looking good and I'm sure your skills will come into it some where.

Cheers

[mldee]

Steve,

You beat me to it, I keep promising to drive down to Jaycar and get one, but now I don't have to :)

Actually, I've been picking up a few prototype bits and pieces off Ebay HKG, such as 12V motor/gearboxes, motor PWM controllers, TEC coolers, etc, so as the discussion moves on, we can start to look at what we want to initially focus on. Pun intended :)

I also got my Ebay HKG Pentax to EOS adaptor today, so am going out to do some widefield trials with my old Takumar 50 and 135mm lenses in a minute.

Cheers.

[mldee]

I Hope so David, thanks for your comment.

Please feel free to contribute further as you see fit. Do you foresee any possible uses you may have?

I would love to see this forum have a multitude of inputs from prospective users, not just posts from a clique of techno-geeks :)

Cheers

[DavidU]

I may have some uses for it in the future, I just want to see a great bit of kit develope here. And sadly I'm a techno geek my self (but valve equipment)

[mldee]

David, don't let that stop you, it's ideas and creative, constructive suggestions that make things happen, not whether they have indirectly heated cathodes or not :)

[mldee]

OK, looks like things are quieting down for the night. Thanks to everyone for their inputs.

What I would like to propose now is that we identify the functions in remote observatories that are felt to be frustrating yet difficult to correct.

I suspect that for most people it would be three things:

1 - Remote focusing, especially multiple scopes
2 - Dew elimination and all the factors controlling it
3 - Observatory 12V power status

There are a bunch of others as well, but since these are basically the most important to a pleasant nights photography, and easy to address, I propose we initially put our efforts into a solution for them, then we move onto the more diverse and perhaps more difficult functions.

If people wish to contribute their views and suggestions on functions they feel are either important or desirable, please post your ideas here.

I suggest we now spend a couple of days collecting suggestions and ideas, then move forward into allocating tasks so that we get beyond the talk stage into actually doing something productive :)

One area that hasn't yet been addressed is what people would like to see in the PC user interface. That's easy to say, but difficult to express, so probably we need to come up with some examples and screen grabs for folks to comment on.

I'm a mouse man, others prefer keyboards, so there are many inputs needed to come up with a good GUI. I would like to see a high priority on the design after some samples are posted.

Anyway, enough for tonight, and will be back in touch tomorrow.

Took a couple of nice widefields of Antares region tonight with the 1000d and Takumar 135mm on the EQ6. Then the clouds came in....

Cheers,

[kinetic]

It's going to be different for each person.

Here's a wish list for me as an example:

Turn on/off Dome red lights (output)
(So I can visually check a webcam/CCTV image of the dome.
Cables not fouling etc)

Turn on/off Dome interior white lights (output) (reason as above)

Focus Camera (output)
Focus position feedback (input)

Rotate dome CW/ Anti CW (output)
Position feedback for Dome (input)

Rain detector (input)
CCD temperature (input)
Dome ambient temp (input)

Turn on Dome wideview CCTV camera or webcam (output)

My GUI would need to only address my list.
Someone else would want a different list. Or a bigger list etc.
If someone designed a GUI front end that had everything functional
then maybe just a script file (a la Mel B's Scope) could be used to
toggle on or off only the functions you wanted visible and activated.

Steve

[rally]

Possible suggestion ?

You probably already know that there are existing standard protocols for many of the functions that you are proposing within ASCOM.

It could make good sense that your system attempt to use these because that makes your box compliant with a large amount of existing Astronomy software out there.
It also means that you are not reinventing the wheel entirely and can make use of existing programs by writing an appropriate driver and can then mix and match amateur and commercial products as the need arises and people progress from one level to another or want the functionality that an existing commercial product offers because they dont have the skills to precision machine their own device for example.

I am sure I have read about existing Observatory controllers that make use of the Velleman board that are ASCOM compliant

Once you go down the automation path you might want to make use of the existing scheduling and planning software - "Glue", that holds all the different telescope/obs sub systems together.

So you may as well make use of them and just write the stuff to control the devices that are not already covered by them.

Just a thought ?

Cheers

Rally

[mldee]

Point made, hope we can see some more comments from others on their preferences, it gives us all a better feel for what level of complexity we need.

I've spent sometime this morning googling around the various electronic kit sellers, there are plenty of multi-channel relay and temp sensor kits out there, together with stepper and servo controllers. You've obviously done this as well, so I just put the comments in for the casual observers.

On the GUI, I'm not au fait on MEL Bartel's approach, I'll take a look, but the basic script concept sounds sensible. I don't like complex GUI's (Hate the EQMOD one), but it does get the job done.

I was thinking along the lines of a simple GUI that had BIG Buttons that were easy to click with a mouse, and some simple graphical readouts for temp, focuser, etc. Uncluttered, perhaps with one or two screen pages and suitable for use with an older surplus 486 style PC using XP, although I guess Vista should eventually also be looked at for new PC owners.

A question that's gonna come up soon from the onlookers is "Emmachizzit?". My initial response would be that since all design and programming labour is free and voluntary, it's just material costs plus the option of any paid assembly the purchaser wishes. You want it cheap, then build it yourself, if not, then pay someone to do it for you, and they can quote the cost themselves.

You can also buy all the kit components yourself if you wish, they will be listed in the documentation that eventually accompanies the project.

As a guesstimate based on that approach, the basic controller plus some I/O hardware (Relays, temp sensors, motor controller board) should be around $200 plus shipping. YMMV!

Then comes the costs of any external bits and pieces such as focus motors (12VDC, stepper or servo?) all of which are pretty cheap, say $25 each? Then comes mounting brackets to fit them to your specific focusers, Dew straps, temp and voltage sensor cables, LAN switch, old PC for the obs, pretty boxes to put everything in, etc.

BTW, speaking of PC's, one of the items I just bought to try was a small 12VDC designed-for-cars power source for PC motherboard, AUD67. Ebay here: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/120W-Auto-Car-DC-DC-PC-micro-ATX-Mini-ITX-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ200375362086QQcmdZV iewItemQQptZAU_Components?hash=item 2ea74d6226&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262 (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=400067555052&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT). This is an Ebay link and don't know if it'll work for you. The Ebay shop is called Virtual Village and sells lots of Chinese-made electronic boards for cars and computer overclockers, etc......Good source of bits and pieces.

I have tried it with an Asus P4 MB including HDD and CDROM, it works just fine, powered from my 7.7Ah Gel cel. I'll measure the current later , but it didn't seem very much. I'll also take some pics. I'm just thinking of the obs PC, which could be made totally solid state with an SD card for the OS, I also have an IDE to SD card adaptor, so I'll be happy to tinker with that.

A little old PC dedicated to the Obs housekeeping and LAN accessible by Remote Desktop seems a simple approach. I have a program that formats an SD card as a boot disk, used it on my Eee PC 701 to install XP. I feel keeping the small dedicated housekeeping 486 PC seperate to your main imaging PC is probably advisable.

BTW, I use Remote Desktop here to access my Obs Dell Inspiron 1505 lappie from inside the house and it works just fine, runs CdC, EQMOD, EOS, the lot with no hiccups. My inside computer is just an old P4/3GHz + 1GB. Still have to walk outside to focus though .......

Time to go out for a tinker and some PC happy snaps.

I think I'll also break down and buy one of those Jaycar kits so I can play with controlling my 12VDC focus motor and also generate some more in-depth comments on a GUI approach.

Cheers,

[mldee]

Good comments, Rally, this is where the asset of having IIS reaps the benefits, so many people can make constructive inputs to the design.

I confess I'm unfamiliar with the scope of ASCOM, I just like to use it :)

If the wheel has been invented, that would seem to be a very sensible approach. I'll do some more research on it.

If you have access to any additional information on ASCOM-related Obs functions, links would be most appreciated.

If we can keep this as far as possible as a "glue" approach, so much the better. I'm still a little bemused that no one in the home Astro community seems to have done this. It's all been about telescopes :)

Cheers,

[mldee]

Steve,

Some inputs:

The Arduino boards, http://www.arduino.cc/, which hikerbob discusses in the IIS dew controller thread, seem quite promising too. Perhaps a better choice than the Velleman?

I stumbled across an astronomy forum discussing them:http://stargazerslounge.com/diy-astronomer/85232-stepper-motor-focus-control-version-2-a.html. The Arduino they discuss http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDiecimila seems about the right size, and removes the need for a dedicated obs PC as it can talk to your lappie or such via USB, then functions stand alone and has good wireless comms hardware available.

I also joined the Velleman Yahoo group, but it's pretty empty.

Perhaps hikerbob can give us some insight into the ardiuno stuff?

It has lots of adherents and probably some ASCOM ties as well.

BTW, for camera cooling systems hardware, googling 'overclockers' produces some interesting sites.

Cheers,

[kinetic]

That's just Rally's and my point (made much earlier)...

ASCOM does all this...works with loads of Astro software already and
most OS as well. And it is easy to add more functions to it.

Without first having a good look at how and what ASCOM does Mike
I think you might waste a lot of unnecessary energy.
FWIW.

Steve

[mldee]

I was being a little facetious in my comment.......I'd taken a read of the ASCOM site info. The point that I was trying to make was that despite all the drivers and such written for ASCOM, I haven't yet seen an ASCOM-derived integrated obs controller unit for sale, at least at a price most of us can afford :)

If there are interested members who would like to advise the group into how to better use ASCOM, their inputs would be most appreciated, just don't expect too many suggestions from me, as I don't have the knowledge:)

I would love to see someone offer to do the ASCOM 'glueing', but it's beyond my capabilities. That's the reason for this thread.

[kinetic]

Here is the site you may have seen Rally:
http://www.dppobservatory.net/DomeAutomation/DomeDriver.htm
This is where I found out about the Velleman kit in the first place
He has written an ASCOM driver for it.
When I get time I will test the driver.

Steve

[rally]

Steve,

Thanks.
I recall reading that one and there is another one with full DIY details somewhere out there too !
Probably based on the same system, just another implementation

In addition to those, there is also a Polish made USB Dome Controller that is relatively cheap - $270EU = AUD$460 (it was $350EU last year)
http://www.scopedome.com/en/scopedomeusbcard.aspx

It appears to be a very well made unit and seems to support an encoder for dome positional feedback - they supply their ASCOM compliant software free of charge.
Just add motors and gears !

I think the project is a good idea, but I am not sure if recreating all the functions that are already available is necessarily a good one.
Use ASCOM for all of its existing functions and seek to add further functionality to ASCOM by catering for those things that arent already handled. That way it can work with any custom designed software and it can work with existing software that seeks to control common devices.

This then dictates how the controller hardware should be designed and the nature of the software driver/interface to the controller and any applications that will use it.

Cheers

Rally

[mldee]

Rally, there seems to be some misconception that the intent is to reinvent the wheel.

Actually it's more to find out what has already been made for the wheel and then build the wheel using those materials!

If ASCOM compatability is the way to go, and of course it is, then advice to us mere mortals living in suburbia is what is needed, not just asides that that's the way we should do it.

Now, can someone actually give us some concrete advice on how and what we should be looking at to implement an ASCOM-compatible project?

Cheers

[rally]

Here is the link to the ASCOM site's info regarding the 7 (6?) current device standard interfaces.
Telescope Driver
Camera Driver
Dome Control driver
Filter Wheel driver
Rotator Driver
Focusser Driver

Somewhere I think there is also a Weatherbased one - I think the Boltwood is ASCOM compliant ?
Not sure about the Flip-Flat ?

http://ascom-standards.org/Standards/Index.htm

Browsing though those and the "General requirements" should yield some idea of what its all about
http://ascom-standards.org/Standards/Requirements.htm

I am guessing that if you had a range of Hardware that was considered generically useful they might consider adding it.

In Steves case he mentioned a need to control his lighting - so maybe Astronomy related lighting and therefore a Lighting Controller in all of its variances could become a new standard and a new hardware device created ?

This would then make it modular, ASCOM compliant (assuming they can agree to it)

Most of the rest of Steve's list of requirements are already covered by ASCOM I think.
Someone just needs to make the hardware controllers, write an ASCOM driver and a Windows interface !!!

Then hopefully the rest of the world (if they think its useful) can integrate
its functionality into their software too.

Food for thought.

Rally

[mldee]

Rally, thanks for the very productive comments and information you have provided on the ASCOM aspects of the project. They provide the sort of 'discussion points' general knowledge we need.

I think you hit the nail on the head with your comment "Someone just needs to:

1 - Make the hardware controllers,
2 - Write an ASCOM driver,
and
3 - Write a Windows interface !!!"

You've spelled out well the priorities and associated tasks we need to address, once we've decided on which functions we are trying to include in the controller.

I don't see myself as any sort of "code dog", and my knowledge of the procedures needed to write an ASCOM driver is non-existent, and I must confess, I don't have much interest in learning at this stage in my life, but I'm sure in the IIS group we have others who are competent and have the knowledge.

I see my role as more of a 'startup catalyst' to organise getting the project up and running, while donating those of my skills which may be of some use.

Some may also pop up from other places in the Astro fraternity with already-written drivers or such. So having the objective of making the controller ASCOM-compliant is a worthy one and I feel should be fundamental to the project concept.

I see us presently at the "pre #1" (make the hardware controllers) stage. We need to identify which functions the controller will handle, based on inputs from members. We should then prioritise the functions by demand and ability to achieve them, including the ASCOM aspect, and then decide on the type of hardware controller that is most suited to the task. Once we have done that, we can then assign knowledgeable members to concentrate on the ASCOM and GUI aspects of the project.

Perhaps a simple XL spreadsheet approach is the way to compile such a list with all the factors available on it for reference. I don't mind doing that.

In the meantime, perhaps some feedback from interested members on this overall approach would be useful, as well as further inputs on desired functions, based in the info available so far.

I don't have any firm preference on how "all-singing, all-dancing" this controller should be, except the quite obvious one that the more complex we make it, the longer it may take to come to fruition.

So perhaps the "Keep It Simple" one is a good way to start until we have identified our individual capabilities. Of course if a lot of the hardware and drivers is already available, simplicity can be readily achieved whilst making a more capable unit.

So far functions that have been identified as desirable by myself and Steve include:

Focusing
DC power monitoring
Weather and related Dew monitoring/control
Dome/roof control
Lighting controls
CCTV Camera switching
CCD temp monitoring
Security monitoring.

Any comments on other useful needs?

I will come up this weekend with a spreadsheet list on these showing possible hardware controllers, costs, and present ASCOM status, so that we can move towards the prioritisation of efforts, depending on demand, achievability and cost. I must admit, so far I see nothing overly demanding.

There are also the basic design concepts such as LAN, Wireless, PC hardware, standalone ability, GUI approach, etc to be addressed early on.

The group will also need to review each function to get a firm grasp of what the users expects/needs it to achieve. That will come after the list has been compiled.

There's also the persistent subject of future basic machine shop needs for hardware, brackets, etc.

Anyway, time for more inputs from the floor.:hi:

Cheers

[kinetic]

Peltier control
Filterwheel control
DSC feedback : ArgoNavis or David Ek box for example

Rally mentioned these and a few more

[mldee]

Yep, but they referred to items that at this stage anyway, I didn't think we were going to address, such as scope & filter control, as they are already available in other software packages. I know nothing of DSC feedback functions or the need for it. Perhaps someone can illuminate me.

Agreed, it would be nice to incorporate all of them, but for startoff, it is preferable to focus on those functions that are not readily available in a "controller package" and are desired by IIS members, as shown by their inputs to the thread.

Hopefully, over the weekend those inputs may start to be posted by other interested IIS members.

Cheers,

[mldee]

There seems little interest within IIS in participating in this activity, so I'll turn my attentions elsewhere to complete the task.

My thanks to those who did contribute information.

If anyone still has interest in the project, please feel free to PM me.

[KenGee]

Hi all,
I used one of these kits to build a cloud sensor last year for my Observatory it works well. I make use of the ASCOM standard for the rest of my off the shelf stuff. I'm a programmer so I would be willing to help out.

[tonybarry]

Hello people, I have just coma across this thread, and note that someone else has mentioned Arduino.

I have been using this board for a couple of years and cannot rate it highly enough. It has an IDE (integrated development environment) that works under Linux, Windows and Mac OS, it has a very powerful processor (Atmel AVR) at its core, there are a great many plug-in boards for relay, LCD screen, ethernet etc, and ... it's really low cost (around AUD45 for 6 analog in, 13 digital I/O & PWM, 1 serial/USB, and bus powered). It can work as a standalone system or comm through USB for monitoring or interactive control.

It uses a C compiler (avr-gcc) but the beauty of the system is that you don't need to dig through makefiles - it is really an elegant, clean implementation of what a microcontroller project environment ought to be.

I program on the Mac (REALbasic) and now use the Arduino exclusively as a target for my microcontroller needs at work.

Regards,
Tony Barry

[rsbfoto]

Hi,

Same as Tony I found this posting quite late.

I have started with the remotization of my Observatory maybe a year ago and it grew steadily and so far I can say I am finished to 99%. That missing 1% will never come because I always find somehting to improve or change :)

I am using boards from www.controlanything.com (http://www.controlanything.com) which come in a huge variaty of communication possibilites and switching possibilities.

I am using the board ADR85ProXR which has 8 SPDT 5amp 240v relays as well as 8 A/D inputs be it 8 or 10 bit resolution.

http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ADR85ProXR.jpg

Also I just purchased a new one with 2 boards as everything grew and now I have 16 SPDT relays 5amp 240v which are the AD1216 and XR165

http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/AD1216XR165.jpg

You just need to write a program in VB.net with simple commands consisting of 2 or 3 bytes.

The communication I use is serial because it is easy and the serial ports do no hang up ;)

Here a few images of the installation in my Observatory

Main switching like PCs, power to the columns etc. Sorry for the mess :screwy: but it works
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/MainControlCenterBoard.jpg

and here a view into the control box of one oy my piers
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/WestPierControlBox.jpg
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-20.jpg

The big black bos is a UPS for Rack installation and delivers 500VA which allows me to keep alive my pier for about 30 minutes

and here the box closed
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/EastPier-remoto-00.jpg

In order to have the safety functions I am using so called reed relays as used in home security which are activated via magnets.

Here the roof safety in closed state
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-00.jpg

open state
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-02.jpg

Here on one of my GEM Losmandy G11
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-07.jpg

Here a screenshot of my GUI for switching nearly everyhting
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/RSCC1-RSCC2.jpg

The software developed slowly as I am no programmer and with the help of a friend in germany I have been improving everything

Here the GUI for switching the hardware mounted on a pier
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-17.jpg

Now another safety is to know if after switching on a device like tha camera it is really drawing power or not. Therefore I developed so called Currentloop relays using a reed relay and a handmade magentic coil. If current flows a magnetioc field is cerated and the reed relay clsoes and send a signal to the A/D inputs.

Here an image of my archaic relays
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/ROR-18.jpg

Also I needed to know if my power supplies inside the pier cointrol are on and therefore I made another safety switch using a simple optocoupler circuit. If both supplies are running then I get green light. This is achieved by connecting in series the both optocuplers.

Here a picture of that simple circuit
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/2xTLP521-1GB-00.jpg

In this case for testing purposes I used a half fried TLP504 :lol: on only one channel.

Here the real circuit in the box
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/2xOpto12v24v.jpg

and last but not least the view of my desk in my warm room into the cold room

http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/cons/Monitores-04.jpg

The missing 1% is a good bandwidth in order to control it safely remotely :confused2:

If you would like to have specific info about anythinf just contact me via private message.

Sorrry for the long post.

[rsbfoto]

ooops

Forgot to add that I also have an AllSkycamera, a Raindetector and a Cloud detector.

Here they are
http://rainerehlert.com/ObsReal14/Remoto/RS-RainDetector-03.jpg

[kinetic]

Wrote a front end using VB studio over the weekend and
got a few devices functioning as inputs and outputs.

Temp readings are simply a voltage divider network
across two thermocouples just to simulate a real input.

In reality, a dedicated temp IC like a LM335 would be used here.

Edit: screengrab background courtesy JJJ's Sagittarius Widefield :)

Steve

[mldee]

Good to see you're making some progress Steve. The interface looks good. About the level of functionality I'm trying to achieve. I decided to go the arduino route for a trial, and hopefully, with the others also using it, will come up with something there as well.

I'm presently trialling some PWM boards on a small geared motor for remote focusing and a peltier controller for my DSI III. The first focuser mount is aimed at GSO 10:1 crayfords. The next will be for SW ED100 crayford.

Taking lots of photos, so will pass it along when I get something useable. I'm off to get my DSI III rear cover milled for the heat sink today, so will be able to pass on costs and photos soon.

As I'm just too inexperienced at VB GUI's to do much there, much less ASCOM interfaces, I've decided to just go for the XP USB GUI concept at the moment, and if someone wants to do the ASCOM side of things, go for it.

Good luck,
Mike

[picklesrules]

Just my 2c , you guys probably already know this so disregard this post if u do, but if you use a dedicated ob PC, u can add a program such a tightVNC or something to remotely connect to your observatory pc from a remote location such as a house an hr away from your dark site using the internet as the connecter with a VPN software such as hamachi to make a virtual lan over the internet. Which could also be used to recive live views from observatory camera (securtiy,scope) etc.
Good Luck
Nick