Danger Sport Mark Webber gets pole

[astroron]

Formula 1. Aussie Mark Webber gets his first career pole position for the German Formula 1 Grand Prix:thumbsup:

[JethroB76]

Great news, lets hope he goes on with it!

[Omaroo]

He's a fabulously talented driver - it'd be great, for once, to see a fabulously talented race car at his disposal for the duration of the race.

Go Mark indeed! :thumbsup:

[astroron]

It's the first time an Aussie has had pole position since Alan Jones over twenty five years ago:thumbsup:
I hope he can go on and win the race:thumbsup:

[pgc hunter]

Awesome!!! Let's just hope his car can actually last beyond the first few laps.

[Clarry]

Half way through the race right now & Webber is in front and setting fastest laps, despite his drive through penalty.
Go Mark.

[MrB]

Yep, drive-thru seems to have spurred him on even more.
Red Bull seem to have finaly sorted out their tactics :rolleyes:
Looking very favourable for Mark right now.... about bloody time too!
GO GO GO!!

[MrB]

Haha, only moments after I typed that one of the commentators (think it was Brundle) said pretty much the same thing. LOL

[MrB]

WIN!!!
Woohoo!
I've never been so happy for anyone(that I'm not related to) in my whole life.
Brilliant.

[matt]

Woooohoooooo!!!!!!!!!

[DavidU]

He won?????????????????
How kewl is that:thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

just blew it - collision with other car on start - drive through penalty puts him back quite along way

[matt]

Errr...the race is over, big guy:D

[MrB]

Ooops!, sorry to ruin the rest of the race for ya David, I guess you didn't watch it live on One?
I can't stop giggling like a little kid.

[h0ughy]

oh must be a delayed broadcast on ten - and my own intellectual delay - should have read all the posts above. ok will go to the corner now

[matt]

Yep. I'm loving it. He deserves this soooooo much!!!

Hopefully the first of many wins.:thumbsup:

[dpastern]

Sorry guys, but an overrated driver. I've been watching F1 for over 25 years now and I don't rate him one single bit. Average driver in a top car. Real talent doesn't need a great car to win (witness Senna @ Donington in 2003 as an example). Webber has had his chances and has let himself down more often than not by making silly mistakes, something that F1 rookies do, not "seasoned" drivers.

Dave

[Jeff]

I would have agreed as recently as 2 years ago also. I felt that Mark was talented at qualifying (and working effectively with his engineers to quickly dial his car setup to match track conditions), but lacking a little bit in race craft ... offensively and defensively.

However Webber has improved during his time at Redbull. While still being fast during practise and qualifying, he seems to be better balancing aggression with "keeping out of harms way" during races. He also seems to be better at preserving tyres, engines and gearboxes than he used to be ... although that might be due partly to a better car and better team race strategies.

I'm enjoying the F1 much more this year after getting a bit bored with Ferrari versus McLaren show year after year.

Keep up the good work Mark! :driving::party::cheers::bowdown:

[Clarry]

Can't you just be happy for him for his first ever win & the first Aussie win in 27 years?

[astroron]

Some people will never be pleased.
Go Mark.
Great drive.

[Omaroo]

I agree. Someone always has to show their superiority by disagreeance.

Good result Mark - I, for one, am very happy for Australian motorsport in your win.

[dpastern]

You're all simply being biased - if he wasn't an Aussie you'd all be going *yawn* so what.

Dave

[dpastern]

I'd like to see a Formula 1 with the same chassis/engine/tyres for each and every car - it would even up the sport considerably and make it far more exciting. It would also result in the best driver[s] generally doing the best. This is as it should be. I believe that winning in any sport should be on self merit.

Don't get me wrong, Mark is a very good driver, but when you're in the upper echelons of motorsport, such as F1, he's average. That only shows how good the competition is. Put Hamilton or Alonso in that car and he wouldn't have seen their tail lights.

Omaroo - I can do without the snide remarks thanks. If you don't like me, then either keep your trap shut, or take it up in private conversation with me.

Dave

[Omaroo]

Yes sir.

:lol:

I'm sure I won't bother.

[astronut]

I normally don't get caught up with this negative talk but.....................we have an aussie that competes against the elite of motorsport at the elite level AND WINS.
If Mark is "ordinary" what does that make the other drivers that came in behind him?
And then of course is the "media", happy to waste line after line on poorly performing and poorly behaving footballers and cricketers, but put a great achievement like Mark's, 4th in line for broadcast.:mad2:
Go figure!!

[astroron]

I'd like to see a Formula 1 with the same chassis/engine/tyres for each and every car - it would even up the sport considerably and make it far more exciting. It would also result in the best driver[s] generally doing the best. This is as it should be. I believe that winning in any sport should be on self merit.

We already have such a championship at the moment and it is called A1 and you never hear of it except when there is nothing else going on.
Formula 1 is about INNOVATION as well as DRIVER SKILL.
To use Senna as an example is a bit much:rolleyes: How many Senna's or Schumachers come along in a life time.
There have been dozens of brilliant drivers who have never won a race in their whole F1 career:(
He may not be the best driver in F1 but he showed that he was the best for the whole weekend at the German F1 Grand Prix:D
I hope he has many more wins in his career.:thumbsup:

[pgc hunter]

More like top driver in an average car



But real talent DOES need a car that doesn't lose it's gearbox 5 laps into every race


His car is what's letting him down. If it were not for all the mechanical problems he's had to endure over his career, he would've been getting far better results, maybe even a few wins under his belt.

[dpastern]

pgc hunter - I seem to remember Senna winning at Monaco (from Prost) in 89 and all he had was 2nd and 5th - for *half* of the entire race. And that was back in the good ole days of a manual gearbox too, which takes a bit more talent than a paddle shift imho (although they are undoubtedly safer and a better option for the sport I agree).

As an aside, Webber's team mates haven't had a spate of mechanical failures (witness Vettel in the same car this year). If a driver is rough with the car, then it'll mechanically complain. It's been that way in F1 for many years. I haven't bought autosport (F1 bible) since Senna died in '94, so I'd have to ferret out the information on why Webber has failed in so many races - I believe it'll be mostly down to driver error.

Dave

[dpastern]

Ron - A1 doesn't work because it's not publicised well imho. It's a good start though, and if you look at the racing, it's *close* and exciting. The old British F3 in the 80s and 90s was also a good breeding ground for close & exciting racing.

F1 has gone down the tube to be honest, and it's a mere shadow of what it used to be. It's boring and not worth watching, at least to this long term lover of F1. FISA is a disgrace, and I believe that they are racist as well with their well displayed attacks on Lewis Hamilton. I haven't been impressed with Mosely since he gained office and Ecclestone sickens me to the core.

I note that when the current FOCA administration said that they wanted to use the same chassis etc, Ferrari had a dummy spit. I know what I'd have said to them...on your bike, don't let the door hit you on the *** on the way out.

Anyways, I am happy to see Mark win his first F1 race, it is *genuinely* nice to see a new face in the winners circle. I simply stated that he is an average driver, in a very good car. You could put a number of drivers in that car and they'd have ran away with the race as well. True, he had to keep the car on the road, and he did, and did it well under pressure. I'm not being unpatriotic, or mean, I'm simply stating a fact. You can argue that my facts are wrong, and I'll link back to statistics if you like and shoot you down. Mark has had solid opportunites before, and screwed them up.

For the record, I've always argued with my dad that he's race winning material, but not a championship contender. He'll win the odd race here and there given the right circumstances but is not a regular on the winners podium due to outright talent. Sure, there's not a lot of difference between someone like Webber and Senna, but it's enough to be the difference between being a champion and the odd race winner. You don't need pole to win, ask Prost about that - a super crafty race tactician and possibly the best in terms of car race setup the sport has seen. But then, he did learn a lot from Lauda in '83 ;-)

Dave

[matt]

Lighten up a bit, eh?

I think, to be fair, it's hard to gauge how good (or not) a driver Mark is when he's clearly had such bad cars for so long.

We heap praise on people like Schumacher....but look at the car he was blessed to be driving for so long. What a ride he got.

Horses for course, mate.

[MrB]

Senna was good yeah, but he wasn't good enough to keep it out of the wall now was he?

David, thought of a career change? You obviously know more than the team principals do, maybe you should be advising them who they should and shouldn't hire as drivers.

[dpastern]

Oh gee, we do have a bunch of smartasses on here today don't we?

Matt - good drivers gravitate to the good cars, that's the way it's always been in any form of motorsport. People like Ron [Dennis], Frank [Williams], Colin [Chapman], Enzo [Ferrari] were very good at spotting talented drivers and securing them early on. Senna tested for McLaren in '83 and Ron was very interested, but sadly couldn't offer him a seat as both were taken. Imagine if Senna had started in that car ;-) Schumacher started in the Jordan team (for one race) before going to Benetton, where he made an immediate impression. Prost and Piquet rose through the ranks quickly as well. So did the great Jimmy Clark and Gilles Villeneuve. It's just the way motor sport works.

I agree that Schumacher was well, overrated to some extent, since he spent the major portion of his entire career in the top car, and with team orders in play, no challenge internally. And Schumacher knows it.

Simon - I suggest you do a wee bit of research about Senna and his famous accident - a highly respected professor of mechanical engineering found that it was the William's car fault. Highly respected drivers testified that it was the car also. Did you know that that ill fated Williams had 3-4mm of flex/play in the steering shaft, and that Williams, and a very young David Coulthard testified that that was normal. Crikey, I wouldn't drive a normal road car at normal road speeds with that amount of flex and I bet the RTA wouldn't pass it either [for safety reasons]. The Tamburello curve was a very dangerous stretch of the Imola circuit, with no run off. Witness Berger's horrendous accident at almost the same spot. Both Senna and Berger noted it as being dangerous in testing for the '94 season, but FIA wasn't interested as it was deemed too difficult to alter the circuit due to the creek behind the wall at the Tamburello curve.

You can insult Senna's memory if you like, but don't forget that many other very famous and very talented drivers died at the racing wheel - Ascari, Clark, Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, to name a few. The overall consensus by many experts is that that Williams FW94 was the fault for the accident. It didn't help that FIA lied in the court, saying that all the onboard footage was already presented, but it then suddenly found an extra 1.1 seconds worth. Funny eh? With delayed telecasts etc, it's easy enough for them to switch what's being showed and destroy/remove it when it's in the financial interest. As an aside, FISA rules at the time stipulated that the race should have been abandoned with poor Ratzenberger died at the circuit - but it wasn't due to greed.

I suggest you read a bit more Simon before making smart ass comments.

Oh, and there's a reason why the top teams haven't picked Webber, and I'm sure that they'd privately agree with my assessment, and that that is the reason why they haven't hired him.

Good on him for winning a race, it is nice to see an Aussie do well in a sport that we have had little representation in. I simply stated a fact that he is an overrated driver [within the F1 realms of course, he's still far far far far far better than any of us!].

It seems that people in ice in space cannot tolerate anyone who dares think outside of the box or have a different comment from the "norm". And it seems that we have the regular forum bullies who belittle others in attempt to perform social ostracising. Guess what guys, I ain't gonna be bullied by the likes of you lot. Get used to it.

Dave

[MrB]

Perhaps you should follow your own advice?

As the old saying goes... if you dont have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[dpastern]

The pot calling the kettle black!

Oh, and as to Senna keeping it out of the wall - he did what he could do - in the split second that he had, the speed dropped considerably. Then he hit the ripple strip and was launched into the air - at that point he had absolutely no control over the car whatsoever. Not much any driver could have done at that point, no matter who they are, or how good they are.

It's amazing how blindly devoted Australians are of their sporting heroes - there seems to be a "we can do no wrong" attitude amongst many of the supporters. If you dare criticise or look at the the sportsperson's performance in a realistic manner, you get shot down in flames. What I see in this thread is a dislike of the fact that I've said something from the norm, and haven't sucked up to Webber just because he had a win. It seems that social pressure in these types of forums simply wants to force others to conform to the 'norm'. No thank you.

Dave

[iceman]

David you've stated your opinion, remember - it's YOUR opinion.

There's no need to keep coming back in to re-state it over and over again.

Arguing for the sake of creating an argument doesn't make you right or make your opinion any more valid.

Having an opinion is fine, but stating it as FACT is what gets people more annoyed.

Noone is trying to force anyone to conform to any 'norm' - you seem to want to start arguing just because people have an opinion different to you.


Exactly! That's all anyone was saying in this thread.
And yet you want to argue that they're wrong for supporting him because you KNOW he's not a good driver?

I think you need to take 2 steps back and pause for thought before pressing reply.

[matt]

David.

With all due respect...that's a fairly insulting generalisation.

For me, the sweetness of his victory was more about one man finally achieving a goal which had eluded him for so long, for a number of reasons.

I can't speak for everyone here....just myself. But my overriding emotion was one of relief for the guy. He's worked hard and had some dreadful bad luck along the way.

If we can't be happy for people like that, whether Aussies or not, what's the point?

And yes...it's nice to see a fellow countryman have a little success and good fortune. I'd rather enjoy the moment and sing his praises a little, than be constantly cutting people down as is our want so often in this country too.

All the best to you.

[Omaroo]

I completely concur with Mike and Matt's sentiments. We're not "bullies" out to "get you" Dave - far from it. I'm just one amongst a bunch of people who simply react accordingly to those that like to post their thoughts in a manner intended to appear as undisputable truth. This to me is bullying in itself. Using terms such as "shoot you down with statistics", "by the likes of you lot. Get used to it", or "shut your trap" are hardly the way to earn someone's respect...or even attention.

I hope that we can make it past the insults and all agree that Mark Webber has finally come though for the average Aussie - however he did it and irrespective of whether he may or may not "deserve" it.

Again - well done to Mark. I hope that he's found the right balance of his own skill, a team willing to back him and a fair share of luck to carry him on to more wins.

[dpastern]

Chris,

I disagree with the social bullying comments. Interestingly, I've had several users PM me in regards to this and they've concurred with my thoughts. They've also privately told me "good onya" for standing up.

Mike - you'll see my secondary, etc, posts have been in reply to someone else's post, either answering or debunking their post. F1 has been a hobby/passion of mine for many years, and I'm reasonably well versed in "F1 talk" so to speak. No, I don't have connections, and no, I don't own a F1 team, but that shouldn't preclude me from making my original comment about Mark.

Chris - yes, it's fantastic to see someone gain a "win" in their chosen sport. Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy for Mark. I just took a step back from the Australian sporting adulation syndrome (we are world reknowned as being sporting nuts you know lol) and stated the obvious - that irrespective of Mark's excellent win (and it was a commanding win I might add), when compared to other drivers in the field, he's average, and that many other drives in that car would have disappeared off into the distance. This isn't/wasn't meant to belittle Mark or his ability, it was simply an analytical play on the result. Nothing more, nothing less. And it is nice to see an Aussie winning at F1 - very few have made it to those upper echelons, let alone won. I'd like to see Mark win a F1 championship to do us Aussies proud, but I don't think it's a realistic goal. Hopefully he'll make me eat my words and win in 2009 ;-) He's not far behind Button and it's feasible, especially since team Red Bull has seemingly moved ahead of Jensen's team in the past 2 races.

I still firmly believe that the best driver should win (hence wanting everyone to drive the same chassis/motor etc).

Anyways, my apologies if I sounded a bit short, I'm very touchy on being bullied, or even the perception of being bulled. Chris - as I said earlier, if you have a problem with me, it's far more productive to PM me than air the dirty laundry in the open air.

Mike - thanks for not locking the thread etc.

Dave

[Omaroo]

Interestingly Dave - as have I.

Truce time and my apologies as well. I think we both know where we stand. When you present an opinion in the future, maybe make sure that people understand it's presented merely as an opinion and not fact because you say it is. It will save much angst.

[Hagar]

Look in the mirror, it doesn't lie. You may see one of the biggest.

[Sab]

BIG formula 1 fan here... I had a big smile on my face on Sunday night when Mark Webber crossed the finish line. The fact that he managed to pull it off under the most difficult of circumstances made the victory even more sweet.

He finally silenced the critics by having the right machinery under his ar5e. If you know motorsports, you will know that Mark's run of bad luck had little to do with his own driving skills.

He has just as much talent as anyone in the current field and probably just as much talent as those in the seasons past.