Boom!

[MrB]

Or.... what happens when the chemical plant that makes fuel for the space shuttle has a fire?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KuGizBjDXo&feature=fvw

:eyepop:

[Jen]

:scared::scared::scared:
:scared3:

[leon]

Bloody hell, that was like a nuclear blast. :scared:

Leon :thumbsup:

[h0ughy]

wonder what started it in the first place - how do you put out something meant to burn in space?

[Omaroo]

BIG boom...

[TrevorW]

Teach them for storing all there eggs in one basket very fortunate or not that only 2 people were killed

'No Smoking"

[BerrieK]

Big Bang?!?!

Houghy do they use dibromodifluoromethane?

Kerrie

[MrB]

Big bada boom

Sure glad it weren't me driving along that freeway...
How long do you reckon before your ears stopped ringing and your nerves settled?

[iceman]

Wow, that's some explosion.

[Baddad]

Hi All, :)

Quite an explosion. Yes.

I find it rather irresponsible of the authorities. The damage may have been minimized by storing explosive fuels in a cratered warehouse.

That way, in the event of a fire/explosion, the shock wave is focused upward. Also the quantity being in divided storage into several craters would have prevented it all going up.

Teach them for storing all there eggs in one basket ( TrevorW )

Sheer stupidity and a lack of forethought cost 100 million bucks. What price on two human lives?:stupid:

I've seen cratering storage in South Australia years ago for ammunition. Have they done away with these smart ideas?:einstein:

Cheers Marty

[Robert9]

Crazy.
I used to work in explosives research at the Nobel factory, west of Melbourne. All processing units never contained more than a ton of explosive at any one time and each unit was surrounded by a very solid earthen wall designed to direct any explosive shock-wave upward. Now that was back in the fifties. We knew about explosive safety then - what has happened since?

[bloodhound31]

I love how hydrogen is explosive and burns, oxygen is explosive and burns, yet what do we do when we have a fire?.......throw water (H20) on it.....:screwy::rofl:

Baz.

[AstralTraveller]

What ever that fuel was it certainly seems to work. I reckon that bang put a few things into space!

[Baddad]

Hi Baz, :)

Oxygen does not burn. It combines with whatever is burning, like hydrogen, carbon or iron. That is to be correct in chemistry terms.
We also use burnt carbon (CO2) to extinguish fires. Carbon is the main ingredient in gunpowder.

Cheers Marty

[Ric]

That was the "Earth Shattering Kaboom" as Marvin the Martian would say.

That shockwave was awesome to watch.

[marki]

I would very much doubt that the fuel was liquid hydrogen and oxygen simply due to the colour of the smoke. It must have been solid fuel for the boosters also indicated by the 700 odd degrees needed to make it combust. Very little energy is needed to get hydrogen burning in oxygen.
I imagine it would be APCP (ammonium perchlorate composite propellent) or something similar which uses several binding agents which could account for the yellow smoke.

Mark

[MrB]

I have two more video's on an old PC(I downloaded them years ago) of a fireworks factory that went up in smoke.... in the heart of a city.
Wiped out many blocks.
Will see if I can find them out in the interweb somewhere.

[MrB]

Well, that was hard! :rolleyes:

Enschede(Netherlands) Fireworks Disaster: (watch in order)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifm9BKf5ZbE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks5X0N8M_o8

Theres another one I have but can't find it out there.

[BerrieK]

In December 2007 a pyrotechnics factory at Wallerawang (between Bathurst and Lithgow in NSW) which is about an hours drive from my place exploded...not as impressive as the fuel factoy inferno, but here's a link to a bit of footage (there's an itty bit of swearing.. warning for those who may be offended) but it was a real cracker!!

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22895896-5007132,00.html

Kerrie

[BerrieK]

Simon I bet the cameraman from the Netherlands explosion had to change his / her undies when they were finished filming!!

[MrB]

Berrie, I have read that the rooftop cameraman did not survive. :(
22 or 23 deaths(different sources)
900+ injured
1,200+ homeless

[bloodhound31]

Although it was tongue in cheek and I understand that the combination of Hydrogen and Oxygen dramatically changes things, I'll be the first to put my hand up and admit my basic knowledge of chemistry sucks.;)

Will things burn without oxygen? So far I have been taught that if you starve a fire of oxygen, it will go out.....:shrug:

Baz.

[AstralTraveller]

That is true of fires you normally see. Fire is an example of an oxidation reaction but oxigen is not the only oxidizing agent. In a redox reaction the oxidizing agent is any species that can accept electrons - and the reducing agent is one that donates electrons (confusing terminology isn't it). So element such as chlorine and fluorine can also be oxidizing agents.

Also the oxidizing agent doesn't have to be present as a gas. In APCP the ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) is the oxygen donor and some metal (typically aluminium) is the reducing agent. APCP has the advantage that while donating oxygen it decomposes to yield nitrogen gas (amongst other things) thus increasing the volume of the material dramatically and so adding to the thrust.

[marki]

Yep there's lots of different oxidising agents besides oxygen itself. One of the demo's I do with my chem students to illustrate this is to bubble chlorine gas through a large measuring cylinder full of water. If you drop calcium carbide in to the water it reacts to form acetylene gas which then reacts with the chlorine gas and burns. It's pretty cool as the gases ignite under water and looks a bit like fireworks. Best of all it allows the students to see fire in an enviroment they would not have thought possible.

Mark

[AstralTraveller]

Are you a high school teacher? That sounds a pretty full-on demo for high school. I didn't know anything so 'interesting' was allowed. You must need a fume hood at least.

[marki]

Yes. the fume hood is a given even though I can name a few students who would benfit from a good sniff of Cl2 :P. The reaction is actually quite gentle as the Cl2 is made by mixing HCl with KMnO4 so production of the gas is slow (no heat). I also do one with I2 crystals, Al and water. This is great, lots of red flame and purple smoke (yes in the fume hood :D) but it does get very hot (i.e. melts the sand bed). I also do the thermite reaction (mix and run away :D:D:D) on the back oval as well as several others. The do gooders have not killed chemistry entirely yet and the kids love it as it gets them out of yet another boring theory lesson. I think they really enjoy watching me sprint away from impending doom as well :lol:.

Mark

[MrB]

Wish my high-school science teachers were as interested in their students as you obviously are.

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:
i was gonna say the same thing :lol: me too. i would have been a straight A+ student if Mark were my teacher :thumbsup::thumbsup:
:P

[TrevorW]

I used to mix condies crystals and glycerene as a kid. Made nitro and gunpowder, flash powder etc all the chemicals could be purchased over the counter even done the old acetylene trick as well

[marki]

Trevor, I used to do one with acetylene in a volumetric flask. Basically fill it up and set it on fire :). It burns down very slowly but one day I had a mishap and the bloody thing turned into ramjet then exploded. Lucky I had the protective shield over the top or all hell would have broken lose (pyrex shards cut deep). We also do a similar thing with H2 gas in a milo tin with a hole in the top. This one is a little unpredictable (run away :D). Touch powder, solid rocket fuels, smoke bombs etc are lots of fun as well.

Jen I don't know how I would have delt with all of your assignments and tests written in purple and there are no extra marks for emoticons :P. Crikey I have just finished marking 70 odd exams and my eyes are dead.

Simon, I love science especially chemistry and that does rub off on the kids ( I am extremely enthusiastic). Since I have been at my school, the number of students taking chemistry and physics has doubled which is bucking the national trend for these subjects. This year we enrolled 50 students in year 11 chem (25% of the year group) and I have another 25 in my year 12 class. If you have a passion for what you teach the kids can see it and want to become involved. I get such a buzz watching their minds develop as well as their desire to learn more and we do have a lot of fun along the way.



Mark

[BerrieK]

LOL an old flatmate of mine was a jeweller who liked to dabble in chemistry....he used to make all sorts of stuff in the shed. One of his favorites was touch powder.....he used to put it on the toilet (very naughty boy) and wait for the scream (no bums were injured somehow, or not that I remember or will admit) or if I had had a particularly outragous night the next morning he would put it randomly along the bannister of the stairs in our grotty little inner Sydney terrace.

Mark you sound like my old chemistry teacher from years 11 and 12 high (only a few years ago of course haha) who was exuberantly enthusiastic....his classes often involved either the fume hood or being outdoors and being ready to run. It was great. My dad was science master at another school and reports had it that his classes were aslo highly entertaining.

Mark your students are really lucky to have an enthusiastic, passionate teacher who is genuinely interested in their field.

Aah, the good old days... thanks for bringing back those memories...

Kerrie :) :)

[AstralTraveller]

I was asking because I've never seen a fume hood in a school. Where I went the most exotic piece of equipment was a bell in a vacuum chamber (to demonstrate that sound doesn't travel in a vacuum) and I think the most spectacular demo was Na in water or burning Mg. The teacher was pretty good but hamstrung by a lack of resources. (We had to make touch powder ourselves :D.)

On the other hand my boss went to an exclusive North Shore school and had his own petrographic microscope. I'm not bitter (and know that others didn't even get the chances I had) and wouldn't be him for quids but so much for equal opportunity.

[BerrieK]

I went to a public high school in a country town with a population of just approx.12000 (back then it was about 9000).

I think that sometimes the presence of 'exotic' gucci gear in a school lab is related to the enthusiasm and push of the teachers - not always just related to the financial situation of the school. Enthusiastic teacher = campaigning for cool stuff by teacher on behalf of students, and depending on the available resources (monetary or otherwise) of the school and the submisison writing skills or powers of persuasion of the teacher / s, the gucci gear becomes available.

Another factor is what is 'standard' for a school to have at the time. For example my dad tells me that when I was at school many public high school in NSW were issued with a reflector telescope on a basic eq mount.

Kerrie

[marki]

All of the WA high schools I have worked in (both public and private) have had at least 1 fume hood but more usually 2, one in the techs prep room and one in a dedicated chem lab. In fact the last public school I worked at was well designed with two fume hoods in the techs prep room each backing onto seperate classrooms. They had double sided access so no one was ever waiting to use them. I am not sure how it is done in other states but you could not complete the upper school chemistry curriculum over here without a fume hood as many of the pracs involve nasties that could not be used. In year 11 they must know how to make Cl2, SO2, H2S, NO2 etc. With the 12's we use a lot of organics, toluene etc so they are a must have item.

Mark

[Baddad]

Hi Mark, :)

I'm reluctant to confess what I used to get up to in school. I was the top chem student and the Lab assistant was a close personal friend of mine. I learnt a lot very quickly. Youthful exuberance motivated me.

I never dared to pull pranks during chem class:scared: but the english and geography classes were fair game. :lol:Even the maths and physics classes experienced a little bang now and then. ;)
In class the slightest shift of a student desk would trigger the paste on the floor. The huge bang and crimson smoke attracted undue attention. The "victim" was often blamed for the disruption.:D

Smoke bombs led to class evacuations; touch paste, exploding chalk as it touched the blackboard, Blackboard dusters exploded on contact. I was never caught. I told no one it was me.

The toilets were not safe. Mainly the female ones. :rofl::rofl::lol:
That's just briefly what I got up to. I won't admit I went to school in South Aust.

Cheers Marty

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol: lol Marty you cheeky little devil you, :lol::wink2::wink2:
Dam it why wernt you around when i was at school we would have made a great team :lol::lol: :whistle:
:wink2:

[marki]

G'day Marty.

Well I am glad you didn't have my current formula because it certainly goes off with a bang and produces a lot of heat. I used to use another powder I would make up whilst doing afternoon labs at uni. Some of the reactions would take an age to complete so you mostly stood around starring at bubbling solutions and it could get very boring. Somehow the powder always seemed to find it's way under toilet seats and occasionally sprinkeled down the odd hall way or stair well. This stuff went off with a lot less of a bang then what I use now but it was always very amusing to watch people doing the touch powder dance when they came into contact with the stuff :D.

Mark

[Robert9]

Does anyone remember painting nitrogen tri-iodide (made by mixing potassium iodide and ammonia) into locker key-holes. Quite shock sensitive when it dries and as the key went into the lock .. bang and a puff of purple smoke. :scared:

Incidentally Mark, what are the employment opportunities for chemists these days? I recall getting my first appointment with ICIANZ Research back in the late '50s. Easy! Wrote a letter asking for a job (not advertised), went on holidays, came back, had an interview, got a job! Not so easy nowadays I reckon.
Robert

[marki]

Pretty low Robert. Over here it's all about mining so I try to direct my students interested in making a living from chemistry toward hydro and extractive metallurgy or chemical engineering. The vast majority of bright students will end up heading for engineering in any case. The mines are a little quiet right now but that will change in the near future if BHP and Rio Tinto don't completely destroy our relationship with the Chinese.

Mark

[Robert9]

Pharmaceutics may also be a reasonable direction. But, like anything else outside the mining industry, this too would probably mean moving to the eastern states. Has all the basic chemistry research been done? Or is this a reflection of modern society who are scared stiff of anything called a chemical. If only people realised that everything in existence is a chemical of some sort - even water!
What really gets me is when I hear of foods labelled "organic". I'd like to see someone eat inorganic foods. Bit tough on the teeth.
Robert

[Baddad]

Hi Robert, :) and Mark, :)

Does anyone remember painting nitrogen tri-iodide (made by mixing potassium iodide and ammonia) into locker key-holes. Quite shock sensitive when it dries and as the key went into the lock .. bang and a puff of purple smoke.

That is one of the explosives I used. It was made from iodine and Amonium hydroxide.

I also at the age of 12yrs made gunpowder. :eyepop:I found the formula in a year 5 history book.:D I used to frequent the local dumps. I found opals and various gems. Disused containers with some of the contents still in. Sulphuric acid, nitric acid and hydrochloric acid. Lots of fun stuff for a 12 yr old.

Fortunately we had a uni student living with us. Pharmacy student, he taught me some interesting things and also how to handle these dangerous chemicals.:thumbsup:

I blew a big chunk out the side of a local bridge pillar. The pillar was bluestone rock cemented together. Loose rocks were seated in old crumbling mortar. :whistle:They renovated and widened the bridge after that.

Does that make me a terrorist?:P

I did learn a lot in those days. I have showed my kids the dangers of using petrol on a fire.

This may be a safety lesson for Mark. I place 200ml of petrol on an open wood BBQ. From as far as I can I throw lighted matches at the BBQ.

When one match ignites the petrol, KaVFOOM. The first time my kids saw it they stepped back real quick. They appreciated why one does not throw such volatile substances onto a fire.

Another for Mark. Alcohol, it burns with a flame that is not very visible. Highly volatile. A demo for the kids? Not a toy, methylated spirits. Sometimes a real danger on race tracks and drag strips, alcohol fires have caused bad injuries to people because it was not easily seen.

Cheers Marty

[TrevorW]

Marty they probably chase you for the repair bill now

Urea, diesolene, ceiling insulation

We made our own sort of fun and learned by experimentation

3rd degree burns from flash powder on my hand

never stick a match to a pile of flash powder unless it's a really long match

[marki]

Marty, I used to do a practical with my lower school students where the kids would design and build hot air balloons from crepe paper. These balloons are quite large and need a decent heat source to fill them. The only way to get them to fly at the time was to use metho in an old coke can with holes in the side (about 500 degrees C). The kids soon learnt about the invisable flame from alcohols:P. I now use a gel fuel which I enrich to get the correct temp and it is a hell of a lot safer then the original method. Not as much fun though :D.

Mark

[Robert9]

It seems we all have tales to tell. The saddest I have concerns my time (or just after in fact) as a research chemist at the Nobel explosives factory.
A colleague with an assistant was out in a little boat on lake Eppalock laying my recently developed formulation of underwater explosive for testing. The chap on the shore, believing the signal had been given to push the plunger, did so and blew up the boat. My colleague was killed and his assistant (who could have been me) was seriously injured.
It was a good close team and we got on exceedingly well. The chap, who was then in his late 50s, and who pushed the plunger, was absolutely distraught. I doubt that he ever recovered.
My colleague had a young family. He was a great guy, an amateur magician I recall, always trying his new tricks and gimmicks on us. He owned an old beat-up FJ Holden. The chaps at the factory did a complete restoration for the bereaved family - a really nice gesture I thought.
Robert

[marki]

Crikey Robert, thats a sad storey. Just goes to show that there is always a great risk involved with explosives even for those in the know. I often have kids asking me about recipes they find on the net (funnily enough it's always the ones that don't do chem) and I do my best to scare the pants of them. Still I fear some day one of them is going to blow themselves up :(.

Mark

[Baddad]

Hi Robert and Mark, :)

Still I fear some day one of them is going to blow themselves up :(.

Mark

Yes we all do have stories.;)

I thought once I had scared the pants off my kids, after they saw what dangers there are with metho or petrol, That would be the end of it.:D

Now I have grand kids. I have to instruct the parents to do their "duty".
:lol:
Cheers Marty

[Robert9]

Hi Mark and Marty,
I think today chemicals are not as freely available as they were in years gone by, but then, I haven't really tried to get any. I managed a small quantity of iso-propanol via a friend who works in a laboratory, but if I asked for something a bit more potent, I might have difficulty. Places like H.B. Selby have disappeared and I really don't know where I'd go. As a kid, I could get quite a bit from the local pharmacist. And yes, I had my fun too. But pharmacies don't make their own medicines any more - mixing to the doctor's prescription.
It was while doing a "chemist's round" as a 10 y.o. that I first became interested in chemistry, though I figured that I would hate to be stuck behind a shop counter for the rest of my life. So I took up industrial chemistry - much wider field too.
As for my kids, 2 boys now in their late 30s, they never really showed any interest whatever. If they ever exploded anything, I certainly didn't know about it! Maybe I was just lucky. Grand kids? I'll just show them the stars!
Robert

[BerrieK]

Hey you guys should look up the book 'Radioactive Boy Scout' by Ken Silverstein. Its a true story about a young bloke (David Hahn) who, using household products and stuff he found at the tip, built a fast breeder nuclear reactor in his back yard shed. Luckily it never reached critical mass, but the background radiation ended up being HUGE.

Not only a great read, but just goes to show that if you want it bad enough you can get it by sheer ingenuity. I highly recommend it.

Kerrie

[Robert9]

Thanks for that Kerrie. I'll try and find the book at our local library. However, I'm not sure that I really want to know. What with the state of the world today with terrorist attacks seemingly everywhere. The mind just boggles at the possible ramifications. :scared3:
Robert

[Baddad]

Hi Robert & Kerrie, :)

Your background sounds much like what I used to do. ;) I changed from chemistry and by my father's advice went into electronics.

The book Kerrie refers to, I know about. Haven't read it but it is so true what can be scavenged and built into a weapon or some dangerous device.:thumbsup:

Cheers Marty

[TrevorW]

This is link to the story

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

[BerrieK]

Ha! The final word in the link that Trevor added (thanks Trevor) was that David Hahn reckons, in relation to his radiaiton exposure, "I don't believe I took more than five years off my life". I wonder if he has kids, whether they will have leukemia or neural tube defects.

Kerrie

ps. oops sorry I seem to have drifted off-topic for this thread.

[marki]

Hi Robert. I think you will be amazed at what you can buy from gardening centers, petrol stations, bunnings and super markets. Certainly enough to make a large bang. Iodine is a bit tricky to get hold of nowdays due to its use in the manufacture of a certain illicit drug but other stuff is freely available. I recently waltz into a chemical supplier and bought some 98% H2SO4 with no questions asked. I need it to set up an anodising line at home and true I could have got it at school. They also seemed keen to supply me with other chemicals I needed again no questions asked. I doubt they would sell it to kids but it's a little scary considering I might have been a terrorist and there are so many ways to make things go boom.

Mark

[MrB]

I don't mind, it's interesting reading :)

[MrB]

Heh, I needed some for the same reason, had no idea where to get it so scavenged some from an old car battery. Worked fine.
Now if I could find a decent supply of dyes.

[marki]

Simon, I got my dyes from Ron at Moonlite Focusers in the US. He does a side trade in anodising equipment and dyes, sealer etc and offers a good range of colours and they get to you within a week of ordering them. Web page is below (scroll to the bottom for shopping).

http://www.focuser.com/atm/anodize/anodize.html

You can import the dyes and sealer no probs but will need to get your nitric acid locally if you want a good pickeling solution or to remove old anodising as that cannot be shipped for obvious reasons. He calls it Deox/desmut but its just dilute HNO3. Sodium carbonate (soda ash/ pH up) is available at bunnings in the pool section and sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) is also available at bunnings in the cleaning section. These make good cleaners when mixed in a 1:1 ratio at about 2 mol/L and give the metal that frosted look depending on the amount of time you imerse them for. You can buy conc sulfuric and nitric acid from (PM me for supplier) but be careful as it is a lot stronger then the 33% version used in batteries. It will spit and carry on something fierce when you dilute it to the required 10 - 15% conc if you rush it. Remember always add acid to water and wear all the necessary protective gear. If you are using the stuff out of batteries it is too strong and will not allow the metal to take on the colour as the pores in the oxide layer will be too small. You can dilute the battery acid I guess but its likely to all sorts in it. Best to start with the pure stuff but it's not cheap at $80 for 2L conc (will easily make up 18L dilute). 10% gives good colour take up (large pores) but is soft whilst 15% will provide a hard anodised surface but poor colour absorption (small pores). 12% is considered a good compromise.

Mark

[GrahamL]

Times sure have changed in recent years.. its getting pretty hard to buy nitram these days .. the last we bought was made in russia.

As for explosives .. up until fairly recently I'm pretty sure you could
for rural use buy gelignite.. some states.. after jumping a few small hoops .. I know I had some paperwork around a while back in regard .

[Robert9]

Oh gee, this thread has progressed, I could say, almost alarmingly, since I last visited. In some way I suppose, its good to know that we still have access to chemicals, but in view of the world's current situation, one must surely shake in ones boots!
Marty, its interesting your change from chemistry to electronics. I did toss up between those two professions back in 50s but opted for the chemistry. I felt that chemistry was the way to go and electronics just made a good hobby - which it did/still does. Still got my amateur radio gear. But there was definitely a change in social development when computers arrived on the scene in the late 70s, and that I feel is when electronics really took off.
Mark, Lovely to see some basic chemistry - complete with the old but vital safety precautions i.e. always add the acid to the water so if it spits you will be sprayed with water plus a little acid rather than the reverse; and of course wearing the safety gear.
Kerrie, if you want a good read about what kids can get up to when left to themselves, try "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding.
Think I've now caught up.:thumbsup:
Robert

[marki]

Robert, one thing I have learnt when working with kids is to never ever take anything for granted so it's more force of habit then anything else :).

Mark

[Robert9]

Mark, I couldn't agree more. Having worked as an OH&S officer I know it applies to adults too!
Robert