Vertical band on 50D image

[Tilt]

Hi All,

I'm just checking if anyone has seen or heard about a banding issue with the Canon 50D? Here is a single 300 sec frame showing this vertical band on the left hand side of the image. The same thing was happening through 2 different telescopes on 2 different nights, I may have a sensor issue? What do you think?

Michael

[astro_south]

I think there was something about vertical banding in one of the firmware updates - what version is your firmware?

[RB]

If you haven't done so already, update your firmware to the latest v1.0.6.
This should fix the banding problem on the 50D.

[dugnsuz]

Hope you sort it out with the firmware update Michael.
I remember something about isolating power and data cables to avoid these issues too.
Nice pic BTW - taken with the ED80??
Doug

[Tilt]

I currently have v1.0.3



Ah you may be onto something here, I found the v1.0.6 firmware update. I will give this a go.



Yep, taken with the ED80 with the WO 0.8x. I have 12x300 sec, maybe I should stack them and process anyway to see what I get. Just crop out the vertical band for the time being. I will update the firmware now and have a go at another image run tonight and see what happens.

[RB]

Yep hope it does the trick for you Michael, let us know.
The 50D is a very nice camera by the looks of things.

:thumbsup:

[dpastern]

All DSLRs can, and do, suffer from banding. My original 1D was horrid for it, I've seen it on a few occasions with my 1D Mark IIn.

From everything I've seen, the 50D is not as popular as the 40D - noise is worse by a considerable margin for starters. Far too many mp in a crop sensor for my liking - I really wish Canon would concentrate on quality than quantity. Canon's quality has went downhill since the 1D Mark III imho, their QA is now very poor.

Dave

[RB]

I agree that I'm not in favour of Canon pushing the MP so high in crop bodies, that's why I think the 40D is the ideal body for astro.
Never the less, the 50D does perform well, noise is a little higher, that's to be expected, but overall from what I've seen and read it's manageable.

It's also got great features that I'd like to have in a DSLR like micro focus adjustment and peripheral illumination lens correction.
Let's just hope Canon starts to concentrate on image quality and not be swayed by the masses who want more mega pixels and video features (nice to have but not essential if image quality will suffer IMO).

[Tilt]

The firmware update did not solve the banding problem, the first frame from last nights run was still showing the single strip down the left hand side of the frame. Hmm, maybe it is a sensor issue after all. Too many pixels into a 1.6 crop is showing its weakness with astro imaging.

Interestingly the 50D is a fantastic terrestrial camera, I've seen no issues at all there. I suppose that's what I mainly bought the camera for in the first place, I have a Baader modified 350D for astro work. I have not seen anything strange in the 350D shots so I might as well just stick with that for the time being.

Michael

[RB]

I don't believe it's the mega pixels that's causing the problem Michael for astro. It must be an interference problem of some sort.
Do you save the images to memory card or computer?
If memory card then which brand?

I agree that the 50D would be a very nice terrestrial camera, if I was to update from the 20D I would be seriously considering it.

[dpastern]

Don't hold your breath. Marketing teams, imho, don't usually know what they're doing. Been there, seen them in action, had to bail them out when they're in trouble (constantly). I made 40k, they made $130k plus, go figure. I've seen so many marketing teams lie about their products, and when you correct the buggers with the correct information, they ignore you.

Modern people think more is better. Quality is a thing of the past, most people don't care these days because most of us have been brainwashed into a 'throw away society' mentality. Sad, but true. It always makes you wonder when a product is cheaper to replace new than repair.

Anyways, there are a number of reasons why more mp onto the same sized sensors are bad - noise, dynamic range, diffraction problems, circle of confusion issues etc. Canon (and others) won't learn unless the market backlashes against them. Canon Australia's service is horrid imho, and I'm not the only one who's said that.

If I had it my way, I'd switch to Nikon in a heartbeat, but, with a fair amount of lenses, it's not really cost effective, at least at the moment.

70-200 f2.8 L
300 f4 IS L
20-35 f2.8 L
50 f1.4
50 f1.8
35-80 f3.5 - 5.5
Sigma 150mm APP EX f2.8 Macro
Canon 1.4x TC (mark 1 version)
Canon 2x TC (mark II version)
430ex flash
Remote control unit
5 x genuine Canon batteries to suit 1 series bodies (pre Mark III which uses different batteries)
D60 backup body + grip
69mm Kenko extension tubes to suit EOS mount

Then there's my old 1n film body (plus grip), 430ez flash

That's a lot of investment, and considering I'd be lucky to probably get a D3k Sigma macro to suit and maybe a flash gun in its place due to market de-valuation. In the end, I've lost interest in Photography. Thanks Canon.

The 40D is a pretty good camera, I know a few who use it. It's Canon's last decent camera imho.

Dave

[Tilt]

I'm using Images Plus camera control, so I'm saving the images directly to the laptop.

[RB]

I agree with what you say Dave.
If I didn't have a significant investment in Canon lenses, I too would have considered a new Nikon body.
But in the end I've always said DSLR's come and go but lenses will be with you for life.

I'm happy with my 20D and 20Da and 5D.
For astro, if I was starting out I'd be looking at the 40D.
For terrestrial (crop 1.6) either the 40D or 50D with it's extra features.
I really like the features on the 50D.

It doesn't look like Canon will concentrate on IQ, the mega pixel war has truly begun.
I began to loose faith in their quality control when the 1D MkIII had it's issues. At least with the 5D MkII they patched the black dot problem with firmware.
That's why I like to wait till everything's ironed out with new models before considering an upgrade.

To be honest, in the end, it is the photographer that makes a great photo, not the camera.
I'd like to see people concentrate on their photo skills and post processing rather than chase mega pixels and features.

[RB]

Maybe try saving to a memory card to see if the issue is interference.

[Tilt]

That's why I went for a 50D, its got nifty features and did I mention the 920,000 dot 3" screen? :thumbsup: Brilliant for checking focus, ect. Essentially this was a terrestrial upgrade from a 350D with a 'I wonder how this performs for DSO imaging' thrown in for good measure. For ISO settings, I've found the 50D to be great in the 100 - 800 range, beyond that it seems to drop off in noise performance (still ok, but not as well as I expected). Fortunately I shoot most (if not all) of my images in the lower ISO range, so I end up with images Im quite happy with.

Michael

[Tilt]

Worth a try, I'll give it a go next time.

[dpastern]

Andrew,

I agree. The Mark III was what made me more cautious about Canon's technical abilities etc.

My Mark IIn is a dog, with more issues than I'm happy with (FireWire is dead on it, I suspect the SD slot is troublesome, audio recording doesn't seem to work, at least the few times that I've tried it).

I still may just settle for a D3 and flash + macro lens combo and forgo everything else, but not until I've settled myself down astro wise.

Dave

[astro_south]

Michael, I have taken plenty of long exposures with the 50D and not seem any hint of banding. I think RB's suggestion of saving to the compact flash would be the best.

I have seen plenty of comment on the noise with the 50D when it first came out. Part of this was sparked by a dpreview which didn't use the latest and greatest Canon software (DPP) for processing the images. The rest of this was a fault of the Canon marketing where it was inferred a stop or more of improvement in noise.

Most of the more recent comparisons on noise show the 50D only very slightly behind the 40D (and for the most part hardly identifiable in normal use) particularly if the right software is used. This is a pretty reasonable result on an engineering front given the pixel count has increased by one half (10Mp to 15Mp) on the same size chip.

The feature set on the 50D over the 40D in my opinion is certainly worth it for the barely perceptible (in normal use) drop in noise performance.

If you are getting noisy terrestrial images (with iso 1600 or above) perhaps try over exposing a 1/3 to 2/3 of a stop. A lot of "noisy" images just aren't correctly exposed - tending to be underexposed.

[RB]

Spot on Andrew, I agree with all you've said.
If I was to upgrade now I'd be seriously looking at the 50D.

It will be interesting to see what Canon will release in the 1D series too.
Hopefully by then the 5DII will come down a little but I'm in no hurry, I'm happy with the 5D for now as a FF body.

BTW Michael, does the band show up in darks?

[Octane]

Also, for astrophotography, try using a AC-DC power source, rather than the battery. See if that makes a difference.

For all my astrophotography, ever since I began, I used a power source, instead of battery, and have never noticed a single band. If they did occur, it was my own fault for not taking correct flat lights.

Dave, if you're finished with your photography/Canon gear, may I have it?

I started on a 300D, then 350D, 40D (modified) and now a 5D Mark II, along with L-series glass, and I can't be happier. You mention quality control issues, etc., I've had no problems with my 5D Mark II. I haven't even upgraded the firmware -- no black dot problem for me. It may have been in the very, very first batch that went out. Mine could have been affected, as I ordered mine in October last year (received in January this year).

I've also just taken mine to New Zealand where it exhibited no problems in the ocean spray when I was shooting from the bow of a boat, or in the rainforest. Granted, the camera was completely sealed due to a filter fitted to the lens.

Regards,
Humayun

[dpastern]

Sure, if the price is right! I'm happy to sell. I'd have to sit down and think about pricing though.

Dave

[Tilt]

Yep, I will give that a go and see what I get.



Thanks, I'll keep that one in mind for next time.



That is the difference between my 350D and 50D, I'm using an AC power source for the 350D and a battery for the 50D. Could it be possible that using a battery can mess around with a long exposure?



Andrew, I've just taken a dark, around 20 degrees C, 300 sec, ISO800. I pushed the levels way up high so you can see what is going on.

[RB]

Looks ok, I don't see the vertical bar that was in your eta.
I assume you used a CF card?

If so the problem was probably interference with you computer lines.

I keep my setup as basic as possible, I focus using live focus, use a timer and save my images to CF. I don't use the PC for image storage and I always use a AC adapter when doing long exposures.

Hopefully you have solved the problem.
If you want to save to PC, run your cables away from the body to minimise electrical interference.

Looking forward to your next image.

:)

[Tilt]

I was using IP camera control and saved the dark directly to the laptop. More than likely what I'm going to have to do is:

1) obtain a AC adapter for the 50D
2) see how things go when saving to the flash card directly

In order to use Images Plus I will need to have one USB cable running to the camera, I will try to keep it clear as possible. Thanks for all the feedback everyone, I will update after the next attempt.

Michael

[acropolite]

I would have to agree with Humayan. I've owned a 20D, 50D and 5DII all have performed flawlessly, the 50D had better noise performance than the 20D, although the difference in image quality between the 20D and 50D IMO was barely percaptable. As Humayan said, the feature set on the 50D is fantastic.

I'll be interested to see if the CF test resolves the problem.

[dpastern]

Phil, you put a Digic III chipset on a 20D and I'll *guarantee* it'll smoke the 50D in terms of noise. Small pixels is just stupid from a design point of view and there comes a time when on chip noise reduction can *only* do so much. Why do you think the D3 kicked Mark III butt? The fact that AF works on the D3 was one aspect, but high ISO noise it smokes anything Canon has produced. The 5D Mark II has pretty good high ISO noise too, even more so if shooting at sRAW (11mp). Of course, why by the camera if you're only going to shoot at 11mp rofl.

I'd love Canon to produce a 12mp full frame with dual digit IV 1 series camera, high quality 920k 3.5" LCD screen, GPS, wireless built in, weather sealed pop up flash that can act as a master flash unit for others, 8fps (anything more is just overkill), ISO 50-25600. That'd be a *real* 1 series camera.

Dave

[Tilt]

Ok guys... It's only been oh lets see... 7 Months! :lol: (life, who knew that it could become so incredibly busy), I am finally going to continue this 50D investigation :thumbsup:

I'm going to update the Canon firmware to 1.0.7 today (just for the sake of it), and put the camera through its paces tonight. I have a ACK-E2 AC power adapter on the way, however that is not expected to arrive until early next week. Until then I will still try the following:

1) Pushing the images straight to the CF.

For anyone that's interested, I will post results after the run.

Michael

edit: /sigh, clouds and high speed winds put an end to any attempt last night :mad2: (standing by for clear weather...)

[Tilt]

Ok, the testing is complete.

I did 2 things differently, 1) I used an ACK-E2 AC power supply and 2) I saved the image directly to the CF to eliminate any cabling/transmission issues.

I took a few different images with different ISO settings and exposure durations, here is one of them as an example.



SW ED80
Canon 50D
ISO 800
1 x 600 sec

Vertical band = present :sadeyes:

On the upside, I have contacted the supplier and they were more than happy to help me out :thumbsup: Therefore, in the new year I will be talking with them and Canon Aust to solve this.

Michael

[Tilt]

If anyone has any astro images taken with a Canon 50D I'd sure like to see them as a comparison.

Michael

[DJ N]

Hi Michael,

Just noticed this thread regarding your 50D. I also purchased a 50D earlier this year, and I don't have any issues with vertical banding. I do find however, that I seem to have horizontal banding, and the raw images seem noisier than my 400D.

Below I have attached the following for your perusal. All images were taken using a Hutech IDAS LPS filter, imaged through my ED120, guided with the ED80 all on the EQ6 Pro.

i. Single 8min exposure with the 50D at ISO800 (straight off the camera)
ii Stacked and processed 6x8min with the 50D at ISO800
iii Single 8min exposure with the 400D at ISO800
iv Stacked and processed 6x8min with the 400D at ISO800

I save my images in both RAW and jpeg both to the computer and the CF card. I power the camera with the ACK-E2 power supply.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,

Daniel

[Tilt]

Daniel, thank you for posting up some of the images you have taken with your 50D, it just confirms there is definitely something wrong with copy I have. I'm not sure what it could be (either does the supplier from the description I gave them), however its going to be sent back to them next week and they want to pass it onto Canon Aust for further investigation. At the end of the day I hope its resolved, because its just not right at the moment.

Michael

[Tilt]

Oh dear, I received feedback from the supplier today and the news is not good. Canon say the camera is 'unrepairable' and have asked if I can stand by for a possible firmware update in the future to address this issue. I almost fell off my chair!

Here's the thing

1) It seems that this problem is isolated to my 50D only; and
2) Why would Canon release a firmware update to fix ONE camera out there?

Canon said this is a known issue with the 50D, but how can it be a known issue when its only my camera that is showing this fault? Everyone else seems to be having a great time with their 50D's without any crazy vertical bands in their images. /sigh

Anyway, I have rejected their findings and their subsequent offer of sending a faulty camera back to me :screwy:

The process continues...

[Tilt]

Just received bad news, Canon have refused to repair my 50D under warranty. Canon are still playing the 'this is a common 50D problem' card, I'm completely disgusted in their customer service, but on the other hand impressed with their dodging the issue skills.

I am at a loss on what to do now, any suggestions?

Michael

[wasyoungonce]

IMHO Canon has to sell merchantable goods in that they must be able to perform the functions they were designed for & the consumer buys them for.

Write a letter to Canon asking them to repair or replace otherwise you will take action with the ACCC (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815215)...be nice about it but be firm.

There may also be consumer affairs (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/8627) in you state than can help.

Failing all that...get legal advice!:question:

[Manav]

Totally agree you need to contact ACCC and get canon to give you a new camera. If it's under warranty they will have to replace it.