Astronomy not astrology!

[Robh]

Some history ...
Until the 14th Century, astrology and astronomy were often indistinguishable. Astrologers believed that celestial bodies directly influenced human behaviour. Astronomical observations were often made so that astrologers could attempt to predict the course of human events. Astronomy diverged from astrology during the Renaissance and, after the 18th Century, astronomy became a purely scientific study.

My story ...
A few weeks ago, I had dinner with some friends. A friend (who will remain nameless) asked me how my astrology was going.
I laughed and said it was astronomy not astrology! I said I do real science; astrology has no basis in reality. I added, it is ridiculous to think all Virgos have the same traits or that a daily horoscope will apply to everyone belonging to a certain star sign.

I was told that I should keep an open mind!!! :poke:

Anyone else had to defend this position?
I'm a non-believer but I thought I'd sample the IIS clan just for curiosity.
Astrology, daily horoscopes, traits determined by star sign.
Fact or fiction?

Seriously, but maybe not, Rob.

[ngcles]

Hi Rob & All,



Have I had to defend this position? Working at Sydney Observatory -- probably several times per week.

Keep an open mind? -- If you keep your mind that far open, your brains will fall out.


Best,

Les D

[mark3d]

of course its absurd that alignment of the stars at birth can influence someones personality - carl sagain argued that the doctor delivering the baby has a greater gravitational effect on the baby than the closest planetary body mars :lol:)

however, i think its perfectly feasible that the horoscope is correlated with various conditions that might affect human development. for example children born in winter will be taken outside less, and exposed to less sun, which may influence them for certain traits. different environments make even genetically identical twins develop differently.

a lot of people uncannilly fit their star sign... there might be something in it :)


.

[TrevorW]

a lot of people uncannilly fit their star sign... there might be something in it :)


Or is it in time the star signs have been made to fit the people, I've often read them and thought how general they were could apply to anyone given the situation

:whistle:

[marki]

Pure BS. I often have to defend my position on this as my workmates insist on reading out horoscopes every morning over coffee. The last "five star day" prediction I had went like this. Whilst day dreaming on the way to work I clipped a curb that had a drain cut into it and destroyed both left side rims and tyres. Luckily I was close to work so I continued to drive the 500 odd meters making more of a mess. In between classes I was running around trying to find spares and in the act of carrying the broken bits up the stairs to my office slipped and fell all the way down carving skin of my shins and nearly bit my toungue off (ouch). One of the wheels followed me down and hit me on the head just to add to the pain. When I finally got it all sorted it cost me $2500.00 to go to work that day:P. 5 star day indeed :mad2:.


Mark

[PeterM]

After showing who knows how many thousands of people through telescopes over the years the astrology/astronomy question was raised less than a dozen times, mostly people wanting to see "their" constellation. Sure I would point it out and leave it at that and it never went any further.
At a ske_ _ ics (changed to protect the innocent) dinner many. many years ago (and I have a witness) I managed to convince a few partners that I was an astrologer and was happy to read their futures through tea leaves for a fee of $10, yep I even had takers ready to fork over their ten bucks! That would have easily paid for my dinner and some.
So who is better off financially amateur/professional astronomers or astrologers I ask? Many professionals I have met seem to be scraping through, but happy. Astrologers I read about seem to be very, very happy.
To me it's crap, but it seems to pay very, very well indeed and therein lies the answer to my question. Hmmm... could be a definite way to owning the latest RC telescope with the best Paramount, the best Naglers and the best SBIG camera.
I can provide you with a Hororscope for only $50 each (I am good at this so I charge more). Send me your money first and I will send you your hororscope.
But how accurate you ask? Here is my prediction - that nobody will send me $50 - so how is that for a 100% accurate prediction for starters, how good am I!
So my suggestion is to run with it and if they are really serious get them to part with their hard earned cash, you will be the better off for it.
PeterM.

[Glenhuon]

Not something that has happened often (getting the two mixed up). But what really annoys is finding the Astronomy magazines in the "New Age" section at the newsagents. :mad2:

Bill

[Ric]

The only thing that I do believe is biodynamics or the Moons effect on plants and their growth.

I was a skeptic and gave it a go, the difference in my vege's was amazing. I'm a confirmed believer now.

As for Astrology, it's all bunkum and poppycock.

Cheers

[kinetic]

Have you ever tried to politely tell the Astrology nut at work
that there are 13 signs of the zodiac and what about all the
poor Ophiuchans who miss out?

Steve

[IanL]

Ask any Astrologer to show you the zodiac at night in the sky and probably none will be able to.

Ian

[stevoggo]

There have been a few great scientific studies on astrology which I have read about, but can't find online. But since i had my dob out I thought I'd have a look and write a horoscope for anyone who is having a birthday within the next year.
You are a sensitive person with a good sense of humor who is concerned about how others see you. You work hard but are still sometimes nervous about the future. Overbearing demanding people get you down - but you usually cope OK. You have a few personal bodily concerns you told no one about. You don't mind toddlers, but just can't take their TV shows. Sometimes you get sick of this area and think about better places you've visited. Lots of people are putting pressure on you. You like being outside and need time to unwind. You will get grief in a few days from some of the same idiots who bothered you last week. Some of your favorite TV shows are on Friday nights. You are probably getting into reading this stuff about yourself. There are still a few secrets you don't share with your best friends. You like salty food and sometimes see weird spots when you blink your eyes. You sometimes feel like you just dropped 20 feet when you sleep, and then get really strange dreams. In spite of how you may sometimes feel, things will start getting better for you.
Hope this helps guide you. I nicked it from another website BTW!!
Cheers Steve

[badchap]

OMG ! That is amazing - it's SO me !

;)

[xelasnave]

You must recoginise the facts:D.

Fact one...most ladies seem to think astrology has more going for it than astronomy... a generalisation but when you present an "open mind" it will seem most ladies go for astrology..

Fact two.. ladies are right;).

Fact three.. when asked how your astrology is going say... "very nice thank you would you like a personal star reading.... you can sleep over ...what wine do you like..."

alex:):):)

[xelasnave]

I have spent the last year on and off with a lady who is really into astrology...the annoying thing is she says things like..."oh she will be a whatever and she will do this etc...and she is right.... I dont know why and I am not going to get involved ...but for them they see their "results" so that supports their beliefs and from then on it is hard to win...and who needs to win...let folk think what they want if it keeps them happy...
alex

[jjjnettie]

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

I've corrected people, mainly women, about my hobby. They loose interest real quick when they find out that I don't follow Astrology.

[PeterM]

As usual Evan you make a good point, when you are on a winner stick with it. I used to teach astronomy part time for the local TAFE Adult Enrichment Course and for several years the numbers were good. In fact about 12 ladies to 1 or 2 gents. When they eventually introduced astrology as an adult enrichment course (I was dumfounded, astrology at a local TAFE, a seat of learning) the numbers for the astronomy class dropped to a non viable level for the TAFE. Yet not once was anything asked about astrology during those five years. The TAFE no longer runs astrology or astronomy courses.
PeterM.

[Jazza11]

Lol everytime i finish observing my mum always says hows ur astrology every time i have to explain the difference and one time someone said "gee u love ur atomosphere dont u" :eyepop: lol people these days

[Quark]

Just noted that Wikipedia predicts that in May 2009 the World population will reach 6.7 billion. Astrologers would have people believe that for each of these 6.7 billion people there are only 12 different daily outcomes. So on any given day about half a billion people are having the same type of day.

There are 88 constellations and 13 Zodiacal constellations. A constellation is said to be Zodiacal if the Sun passes through it.
Astrologers attribute peoples birth signs based on the constellation that the Sun is in at the birth of that person.

The Sun is in the following constellations during the year.

Dec 19 to Jan 19 Sagittarius
Jan 19 to Feb 18 Capricorn
Feb 18 to March 13 Aquarius
March 13 to April 20 Pisces
April 20 to May 13 Aries
May 13 to June 21 Taurus
June 21 to July 20 Gemini
July 20 to Aug 11 Cancer
Aug 11 to Sept 18 Leo
Sept 18 to Nov 1 Virgo
Nov 1 to Nov 22 Libra
Nov 22 to Dec 1 Scorpius
Dec 1 to Dec 19 Orphiuchus

Note that due to the different shape and size of these Zodiacal constellations that the Sun spends vastly different periods in them and that there are 13.

Another consideration is that apparently these objects in the sky that effect our daily lives have absolutely no affect on the unborn, maybe the mother has some sort of inbuilt cosmic shielding that protects her unborn child from these forces.

While on the subject of these forces exerted by the planets, apparently the numerous Brown Dwarfs and molecular clouds that we pass as the Sun with everything that is gravitationally bound to it, hurtles through space at 220 km/sec on its orbit around the Galactic Centre, also have no affect on us. However such object are quite capable of setting objects from the Oort cloud on new paths, either out of the Solar System or in towards the Sun as comets.

It really is amazing how the general public associate astronomy and astrology as the same thing. I suppose its up to us to set the record straight at every opportunity.

Cheers
Trevor

[multiweb]

:lol: A bit of spirituality is good for the soul. You'll live longer. :)

[Davekyn]

Couldn't agree more Marc. Pure science only accounts for 10% of the big picture & has pretty much taken the fun out of living. If people could keep an open mind, they may be better at utilzing what little they really know and only then really begin to embrace a little more of thier full potential.

[Baddad]

Hey, Astro Geeks :)

Good one Robh, and the following comments as well.

I just don't see the point in wasting my time with most of those people who are into astrology. Whatever we may say, usually, is ignored. These type live in a dream fantasy and believe themselves to be right.

So who is supposed to benefit more from an open mind? ;) Does being ignorant of the science of astronomy and believing in astrology mean one has an open mind?

The one living in ignorant fantasy, or the one searching for knowledge and forming an informed opinion?:D Someone is missing something.

Is it worth the effort? :shrug:

Many years ago I came upon the following:

He who knows not,
And knows he knows not,
He is a student.

He who knows,
And knows he knows
He is a teacher.

He who knows not,
And knows not he knows not.
He is a fool.
Shun him.

I was an eleven year old at the time, but the meaning grew over the years. It tends to 'agree' with me.:)

Cheers Marty

[Rhino1980]

I got a phone call from a family friend yesterday who was eager to tell me about the "Astrology" expo in Port Macquarie... I kinda felt bad correcting her but can't have her telling people I'm into Astrology!

[Robh]

Nice one, Marty.

Having started this thread, I've been reading all the comments. Interesting stories and opinions- clever, extended and entertaining as well. Had lots of laughs. Sorry, even yours Marki, until I realised you were serious (were you?).

The comment "Pure science only accounts for 10% of the big picture & has pretty much taken the fun out of living." Agree and disagree. Pure science (only 10%?) isn't the whole picture, at least not for me. But I think it has added more fun to our lives. Pure science leads to practical outcomes e.g. the laser. :)

I detect some leanings towards astrology here amongst our science community (yes, astronomy is a science). Which is interesting!
I think that the references to astrology as spiritual is stretching it. It is supposedly based in fact but certainly can't claim to any spiritual enlightenment. Any bites?

Rob

[Davekyn]

Sorry if my comment upset you Badad-Marty. I don't believe everyone that keeps an open mind is ignorant to science at all. I do think though, there are a large number of people that look through telescopes, that believe in many things. Whilst I can understand peoples frustration at others refering to thier hobby as somthing else completely different...I don't see the reason to start attacking them for thier beliefs.

If anything...it's been really hard to put up with the pompas attitudes & superiority complexs comming out of forum members who soley regard thier hobby as an academic one. But none the less, there are those in IIS that like me, enjoy the hobby for what it is.

No doubt, your probably a good bloke with decent intentions...Just thought you should, I'm ceartainly not ignorant of science and it's benifits. Just like yourself...as one pompas fellow reacently said..."It was poorly presented"...Nice to see your passionate about your hobby though. If it will cheer you up, I could email you some brain teasers :)

Just don't take me to literal is all...I know I'm not perfect.

[Omaroo]

Jeez Dave - a "pompas"? Now I've been well and truly told!



Interesting summation Rob - and one I couldn't find immediate fault with. I wonder how many court astrologers over the eons were in it for the position, and subsequent power it gave them, over an audience that didn't know any better. It must have been a balancing act, using the odds and full knowing that their advice kept them in a position of influence and privilege...as long as it was right some of the time. Then again, I guess that they must have really believed in it themselves. I wonder what they thought when predictions failed to occur... as indeed they would have. Would they have loaded the predictions to shorten those odds? My guess is yes, that would have been part of the "skill". LOL!

I find it interesting that in this day and age people (read: many people) still give this astrology drivel any credibility. It seems that only some in the world have finally progressed past the dark ages. Suggesting to have an "open mind" about it is just a cop-out - unless you're also really into voodoo, have a black cat and think it's colour is spiritually significant, or avoid walking under ladders because it may affect your luck on the tote.

PS - "Astronomy", as such, is a science and is therefore intrinsically academic by nature. "Stargazing" is whatever you want it to be...

Yep - I'm off. I've booked myself in for a spot of bleeding this afternoon.

[Geoff45]

Note also that according to the astrology mob, the sun is in Aries from 21 March to sometime in April. It may have been the case 2000 years ago, but now it is in Pisces at this time. This crowd haven't cottoned on to precession yet. They say ridiculous things like Jupiter is in such and such a sign, when a casual glance at the sky will show that it's not.

[stephenb]

An interesting read is the Wikipedia entry for Astrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astrology). Also interesting is the Discussion page for the same entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Astrology.

[Baddad]

Hey Dave-kyn, :)

I don't believe everyone that keeps an open mind is ignorant to science at all.
:hi:
Not upset at all. My target was the people who try to make you believe in astrology, tell you keep an open mind and you know that they are rather narrow minded themselves and ignorant.

If a person is knowledgeable and chooses to believe in astrology. That is an entirely different matter. I respect that. As long as they leave it out of conversation.

To debate such a subject leads to name calling in the end. Both parties lose, no one wins. I would like to see all wins and if that's not achieveable. Then call it a draw and don't debate it.:D

Thanks for the consideration Dave, it was not upsetting. I do enjoy a discussion with informed people. That is why I like this forum as opposed to others. I can learn a lot.;)

Cheers Marty

[Baddad]

Hey Geoff, :)

I was wondering if the above were the case.

You have put forward a great augument there Geoff. I understand it, but try to tell "astrologists". You will come off second best.
Like I mentioned before, is it worth it? :shrug: Do you need to spend your precious time to convert an "infidel"? What do you gain from it?

Let them live their fantasies. They're not hurting anyone. Most are not high achievers academically, but those that are, are interesting to talk to. Its the passionate ones, ill informed that you keep at a safe distance.

Good one Geoff. :)

Cheers Marty

[sjastro]

An example of an academic high achiever who believed in astrology was my ex brother in law.

An IQ of 170, who did crossword puzzles in his head, played chess with his back turned to the board and an intellect that allowed him comprehend abstract topics such as Quantum mechanics without any formal training, believed in astrology!

We had many debates on astrology. He quite rightly pointed out I was an anti-rationalist as I had an opinion on a subject without actually having any knowledge or understanding of the subject.

We decided he would train me on the fine points of astrology, how to cast horoscopes, and interpret them.

It didn't change my opinion of astrology, and from an insiders perspective it is a very inexact "science".

Regards

Steven

[NeilW]

I have to keep reminding my local newsagent to stop putting Sky & Telescope magazine in the Astrology section!! :doh:

[jjjnettie]

:lol: Our news agent keeps them next to the girly magazines.
He must think that Astronomy is only for boyz.:P

[NeilW]

Guess he just thinks they're all heavenly bodies :rofl:

[TJD]

yeh astrologeys that bad
i saw poo bear yesterday too
not to menchine that im an alien thats just dressed up as a human
and my mission is to find all the other aliens and great them:P



its true it hapened to my friend

[Octane]

Something I've always found interesting is that horoscopes never say anything like "today, you are going to die."

What a load of pseudoscientific garbage. I've had debates with people who believe in this codswallop, and, whenever I've mentioned precession, they tell /me/ to keep an open mind.

Puh-leeze!

Regards,
Humayun