Why so few girls?

[Robh]

One of the first things I noticed when I joined my local amateur astronomy group a few years ago was the preponderance of males. Not long ago, the local university had a Father and Son Night in astronomy. And, you guessed it, no Mother and Daughter Night. When I joined IIS not long ago, it struck me that there were few women in the forums. I may be wrong, but my bet is that males way out number the females in IIS as well. I can’t remember whether there was a Male/Female box you had to tick when filling out personal details so I don’t know wether Mike can give us any idea of the ratio.
Does anyone have a different feeling about the stats?
Are there any male/female couples out there that regularly do astronomical viewing together?
Assuming my feelings about the stats are right, my question in this International Year of Astronomy is “Why so few girls?” Why have we, as a society, not attracted more woman into this field of endeavour?
Are guys more “hard-wired” to astronomy or is it a case of “pink or blue, dolls or trucks” from an early age?
Female viewpoint welcome!
Curious, Rob
:shrug:

[PCH]

Hi Robh,

I imagine it's for the same reason as why there are millions of ads on TV aimed solely at girls/ladies for underwear/clothes/make-up/diets/pills/magazines etc etc ....

Plus I'll bet a pound to a penny that all you guys wives or girlfriends will know exactly who Brad Pitt went out with before Angelina, and all the latest media gossip. While we generally neither know nor care. You know it's true ;)

Guys and gals just have different interests - women usually like all the stuff mentioned above - and toys are usually for blokes.

It's been pointed out, slightly tongue in cheek I hope, that... "boys will be boys, but girls will be women" :)

In keeping with these definitions, my mum, wife and two daughters subscribe fully to all of the above accusations, - whilst I'm an unashamed toy collector.

And I think my habit is cheaper by the way - much :lol:

[Baddad]

Hey PCH, :):thumbsup:You hit the nail right on the head.

Women are Venutians, men are Martians.;):lol:

In social groups; women talk about people, feelings and dreams, men like to discuss toys.

As boys, if a boy can't play a certain game on even level, too bad. Rules are rules.
Girls will change the game rules to include a handicapped player.

I think it stems from the roles of what we evolved from. Males were protectors and providers. Not strictly, but generally speaking. Males developed ideas for tools and weapons.

Women, on the other hand needed to relate well with other women in the tribe or herd, group? they needed to provide support for each other.

And so the interests of Martians and Venutians developed from the survival roles of our ancestory.

Men like hunting and fishing. Women prefer ....? Hmm, what do women like?

Cheers Marty

[BerrieK]

Have a read of this... rather interesting ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20466219/

but as suggested on the thread (men are from mars, women from venus) it might just come down to instinctive differences. Maybe. Personally I am interested in Mars and Venus and everything else in the universe and beyond (if there is a beyond that is).

Gendered interests are often also fostered by the same gender parent (ie. 'traditional' interests). Social and peer 'norms' and expectations can also influence a child or youths interest.

My dad was a science teacher and I have always enjoyed science, knowing how things work and why they work that way...perhaps my childhood influences have something to do with it.

Also adult resposibilities of females (eg. rearing kids, household stuff) can make scientific hobbies prohibitive in some cases or stages of life. This scenario is again rather traditionalist.

Cheers, Kerrie

[iceman]

There's an increasing number of females in this hobby and on IceInSpace, but they are still far outweighed by the number of males.

I guess the reverse question could be asked on the sewing forums? :)

Yes stereotypical I know, but that's just how it pans out at the moment.

In my Uni course of 73 students (an IT course), only 3 were females. There's just not the same level of interest in some hobbies/technologies at the moment.

[Terry B]

This seems to be the case but interestingly at our local astro group it is about 50/50.:shrug:

[Analog6]

I do think this is responsible for a lot of it. I have no children so have always been free to follow my photography/astronomy interests (within financial constraints). And until the last couple of decades, women often earnt far less than their male counterparts and this can have an influence too.

Schools tend to lump children into gender grouped activites too - girls are not encouraged, even now, to do woodwork/hands on/scientific type stuff - sewing and cookery are often still considered more 'appropriate'. I can't sew to save myself!

[Peter Ward]

Sorry, this is a myth.

I have worked with many very capable women who have exceeded my salary due their hard work and effort. *All* awards I have worked under do not discriminate on the basis of gender. In Oz, same job/level/rank= same pay. It's the law.

In terms of demographics, women and men simply have different interests. Life would be pretty boring if we didn't.

[Gallifreyboy]

I agree with the different interests theory. I bought a new telescope in January and have spent a lot of time with the kids (me being the biggest one) trying to encourage enthusiasm in equal amounts. Oldest child female 11 slight interest in smiley face conjunction in December and first good view of Saturn. Second child age 7 male cannot stop talking or thinking astronomy, wants to know everything, can locate accurately 30 brightest stars in sky, knows names 4 galillean moons looks up astronomy websites for favourite photos. Third child female age 4 interested in moon and saturn but busually in bed by time of best viewing. Similar genetics, similar encouragement, different outcomes.

[Bolts_Tweed]

As an Engineering lecturer I have seen the number of females entering the Engineering u/g program increase steadily from less than 1% to over 8% presently - still too low but it is refelected in the traditional sciences at our uni. Interestingly the uni medal for best u/g engineering result has gone to a female for 6 of the last 7 years.

If I am forced to generalise I have found that the majority of the male students will study to remember that 2 +2 = 4 to pass exams while the majority of the feamles will want to know why it equals 4 and I have even had them argue that it shouldnt equal 4 or they want to know how I feel about it equaling 4.

My point is that while may have different operational centres in our brains (arguable) the female brain is definately suited to more pure scientific pursuits making the number imbalance due to other causes than the 'way' we think.

The good news is that the 10th observatory we have had built on our site at Leyburn was erected by a female with her husband last weekend. My long suffering wife is still smiling.

[jjjnettie]

Yeah, there's not many of us around.:(
Why?
You'd have to ask those women who aren't interested in Astronomy that question.
Me, I love it, I breathe it, I'm a total Astro bore and proud of it.:P
I can't understand why everybody else doesn't love it too.:shrug:

[toryglen-boy]

i asked one girly friend why she thought it was boring, and not at all fun or interesting. her reply?

she thought that telescopes looked very "phallic" and gadgety, male orientated, and not at all feminine.

i got the impression if she could find a telescope in nice pastel shades with those absolutely awful frangiapani car window stickers, it might be more approachable.

That said, my better half has a very keen interest in it, and loves gazing through the eyepiece.

:lol:

[Jen]

Well there is not many women in here cause all you astro geeks are really scary :lol::lol::lol::lol:
U are all pretty cool :D
Nah just kidding well for one im not a girley girl anyway :lol: the only mags i buy are astro ones :lol: make up very little dont wear it much at all :) flowers come and go :) but the stars are always there :D:thumbsup:
I have much more fun with the boys :lol::lol: through school i always picked electrical and woodwork while the girls were sewing and cooking yuck :rolleyes: When i did my IT classes i was the only chick too :P
I have tried to get all my friends into it but they just have a quick look and thats it :sadeyes: they think im a weirdo :lol::lol: But im a proud one :thumbsup:

And most of the women i know love their beauty sleep so that makes them miss out on all the good stuff to look at in the sky at night time

But on a girley note i do love the color PURPLE and i loveeeeee emoticons so there is a hint of girley hormones there somewhere :lol:

[ngcles]

Hi Rob, Peter & All,



Sorry Peter but I have to disagree with you on this being a myth.

The statement by Analogue6 was very true in practice -- as opposed to law or policy. Analogue6 put it as a matter of history and I don't think anyone could reasonably argue otherwise.

In terms of average salary/pay women have now almost caught up to men but it has taken a long, long time for that to happen. Wind the clock back 50 or even 20-odd years, the amount of disposable income women had ready access to for discretionary spending was generally smaller than men. Back then, telescopes either cost a lot of discretionary money to buy or discretionary time to make -- and historically, most younger women had little of either commodity.

This factor has had a significant effect on female participation in our hobby -- and really we're only just been seeing that change significantly in the last 10-20 years. I hope the trend continues. A lot of other factors are at play that have conspired to keep the numbers of women down. This is the way I see it:

One of the most important factors is that, as a general statement women's and men's brains are wired differently at a fundamental level. That's not to say one or the other is more intelligent, better or superior. Whether that difference is genetic or learned or a mixture of both is moot, but I believe it is a fact -- and thank goodness for that difference. Again to emphasise -- that's not to say one is better than the other. But we have to acknowledge that real difference whatever its origin. As an example, few men are good at multi-tasking. Generally women leave men for dead in that department -- their brains are fundamentally different in that department to most men.

I believe the subject material of astronomy is simply more likely to find wider appeal in male brains than female. This is not a universal statement but a general statement -- please read it as such.

Rightly or wrongly, men are generally really into "toys". Women generally find relationships more important and fulfilling to them than toys. Talking is much more important to women than it is to men. Doing is generally more important to men than talking. Astronomy is a hobby that revolves around doing things with and playing with toys. Generally, men enjoy this more than women.

Up until maybe the current generation, women have had much less discretionary time to pursue a hobby or pass-time -- and if they did, it was more likely to be a home-based pass-time so they were at hand to do the things society typecast them as being responsible for. This is (rightly) changing but slowly.

The societies must bear some of the blame. Historically, the amateur astronomy societies have been dominated by men -- politically and socially. Again, rightly or wrongly, many men have used the societies as a "boys club" where they can go to hang out with other men. This is a perfectly normal behaviour for a man -- we need space away from the girls from time to time in the same way women enjoy time away from men with other women.

But, it has been to the detriment of female amateur astronomers, some of whom (understandably) feel intimidated by either the sheer numbers of men there or driven away (consciously or unconsciously) by men who fail to make them feel welcome, comfortable and equal. That's not to say it happens all the time, but I'm sure it happens at least sometimes.

All of this has lead to a dearth of female role-models in amateur astronomy. That lack of role-models has assisted to perpetuate the ladies under-representation in the hobby and the societies.


:thumbsup: for the girls!


Best,

Les D

[jjjnettie]

I'm with you Jen.
I've always been a Tom Boy. I used to spend my summers as a child building tree houses.
Never been into make up, fashion etc etc
Womens magazines make me gag and only ever buy the astro mags, american scientific, cosmos, grassroots etc.

There is discrimination within the Astronomy community, which is humiliating and hurtful.:( It's not nice to be ignored and patronised.
But I've managed to surround myself with the most supportive people, most of which I've met here on IIS.:thumbsup:

[marki]

Thats a real shame jjj, I wonder how many others have been put off by such an experience? It certainly might be an answer to your question Rob.

Mark

[jjjnettie]

Discrimination is prevelant everywhere. If you allow it to stop you enjoying your hobby, you're as much a fool as they are.;)

[erick]

Interesting discussion. I am aware of cases of a couple with scope and some people jumping to the conclusion that it is his scope and his hobby when he's just tagging along with the real amateur astronomer. :D

[Baddad]

Hey all,:)
There's a lot of good arguements contained in these posts. I can agree with many of them. Some I need to think about a little more, but probably valid.

I'm introducing some more material into the thread. Simply to illustrate the differences in men's and women's interests that I have experienced.

I was a body builder years ago and in that sport there was a large proportion of women.

I also was a ballroom dance instructor. There were always women without male partners in that past time. However Rock 'n Roll was a little better matched but still lacked in male numbers.

I have been a guest with several fishing club outings. Almost devoid of women.

Read into these points what you will. I often have found that women don't want to read operator's manuals for TVs and the like. Then when it comes crunch time. "Can't they make these things easier to use? Its stupid! Dumb TV."

ngcles mentions the differences in the brains. This I have to agree with. Women are better at communication skills while men have more logical orientated brains.

A woman can express herself better, and a man can read a road map better; generally speaking, to illustrate that point.

I was in charge of a number of Electronic Tradespeople and apprentices. I sometimes had need to call on an apprentice, male or female, to teach me about an equipment. I was the boss and teacher. No shame in it.

From this I don't discriminate who teaches me what. If the 'teacher' knows more than me; I am an eager student. I find it sad that jjj or Jen or who ever believes they are underdone with discrimination.

Keep a stiff upper lip girls I trust the boys of IIS are fully supportive.

Cheers Marty

[multiweb]

We're problem solvers. Plain and simple. They like to talk about it. :)
Oohhh! I'm gonna get in trouble for this one. :whistle: :lol:

[Blue Skies]

You're looking in the wrong place - come to Perth and you'll find a very strong female presence in the club scene here. This has been the norm for several years, and if I may name drop, even David Malin commented on it about 10 years ago when he was here for an Astrofest event. ASWA has had two female presidents in the past and is looking at third. And I know of at least two husband/wife couples who love their observing with equal passion. A rough count of women I usually see active in ASWA comes to...11 at least so any other women coming along usually fit right in and stay. At least two of them are techno-geeks and spend a lot of time choosing the best gadgets for their high-quality refractors to play with. :D

So, it can be done.

I would have to say personally I have not been discouraged in this hobby because of my gender. If you are enthusiastic about it and just jump right in for the love of it no one seems to really care if you're a boy or girl, at least that's what I've found.

[spacezebra]

Hi all

Well encapsulated JJJ!

Cheers Petra d.

[AstralTraveller]

I'm very heartened that the number of female engineering students is rising, and the same is true at my uni. The comment about their success is interesting. I expect their is a self-selection of very motivated students into non-traditional areas. Those who are a but more lazy stay with something 'safe'.

Years ago my wife worked in non-traditional jobs (industry, construction) and the experience then was that a woman had to be above average to be accepted. That isn't right. Until a woman has the right to be as mediocre as the bloke next to her there won't be career-opportunity equality.

Meanwhile my wife is out tonight at the meeting of our local astronomy club, and pretty much running the show, while I can't be bothered going. She certainly got interested in astronomy through me and for a long time basically oscillated between astronomy widow and hanger-on. However in the last 5 or so years she has decided to get into astronomy in her own right. We have two scopes and I occasionally let her use one ;) and she is improving her knowledge of astronomy and the sky. She doesn't, however, lurk on IIS.

[charsiubau]

I was already an avid science fiction reader by the time I was 14 when I looked at the Orion nebula and trapezium through a friend's brother's 60 mm scope for the first time. My husband and I bought our first scope (a 5 inch Celestron) together 33 years ago before we'd even discussed marriage - though my friend said she figured we were serious when we did that.http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/winking70.gif Astronomy took a back burner while we were raising a family but we got back into it more regularly 5 years ago inspired by the great opposition of Mars and since then have acquired a few more telescopes. We are both equally interested in astronomy, but he gets much more enthusiastic about equipment (in a typically male way). However I can read maps (contrary to the female stereotype) and know my way round the sky better than he does. It seems to me that astronomy just grabs some people and not others, and I don't think it's a particularly male - female thing. That said there does seem to be a preponderance of males in the hobby - but it's definitely not as male-dominated as model trains (my husband's other hobby).

[ngcles]

Hi All,

I posted earlier on this and have read and re-read my post a few times to try and check whether I might have caused offense -- which was not my intention. I hope I haven't. I haven't had any email or private messages motivating me to post again, but just feel the need to clarify.

For the purposes of crystallizing what I said earlier, I'll try and summarize it succinctly:

(1) It is probably true for a host of reasons related to our respective make-up, that less women than men will develop an interest in astronomy.

(2) Of those ladies that do develop an interest, I think they have historically come from a position of socio-economic and cultural disadvantage within our hobby and in professional astronomy. That has gradually changed and barriers are being broken-down and I hope that change will accelerate. We need as many positive role-models (male, but particularly female) as possible to promote this.

(3) Of those ladies that do have or develop an interest, it is very important that all of us -- men and women make sure that is fostered and not suppressed or allowed to wither on the vine.

Maybe I've dug myself deeper into a hole -- I dunno. If I've got it wrong -- (boys or girls) let me know.

I'm delighted to hear things are different in WA Jacquie and that participation is as high as it is. :thumbsup:

Its not just equality of the sexes at stake here, this is about furthering the interests of astronomy, as a science and a hobby as a whole. The more people we have actively involved and participating (male or female) the better it will be for all of us.

Oh, and BTW JJJ I missed it earlier when you said:

"Me, I love it, I breathe it, I'm a total Astro bore and proud of it.
I can't understand why everybody else doesn't love it too."

Phew !! Its not just me ... :thumbsup:


Best,

Les D

P.S There goes my emoticon allowance again ...

[Jen]

The one thing that does hold me back from getting really full on in this hobby i find is when you have met a guy on here that has a 20inch scope that i am dying to go have a play with :P:D but its hard to go to another guys house and basically spend the night there till the sun comes up :lol: while your hubby is home sleeping it just dosnt seem to be the right thing to do so unless you have a hubby thats into it too it can make it a very difficult situation to be in :doh: i have gone over there and taken hubby with me twice now and we all get along great but i think he might get bored after a while but it was yucky weather each time i have gone there :mad2: i havnt caught up with him for a while now ( i must give him a buzz soon):thumbsup:
I dont know any girls that i could go out and stay out till the sun comes up and play with all these awsome toys i only know guys :doh:

[marki]

Sounds like you are going to have to start an all girls astronomy club in your town Jen.

Mark

[Ric]

I think there are a lot of women making inroads into Astronomy as a hobby and profession at the moment.

This months guest speaker at our Astro Society meeting is a female Phd student with Mt Stromlo Observatory who will be talking about water on Mars.

Great stuff if you ask me.

cheers

[jjjnettie]

I can understand what you're saying Jen.
I go away most new moons to Cambroon Observatory, but there's usually such a crowd of us. And most times another lady, Maureen, comes along too for a while.
Most of the gents I've met in the hobby are true gentlemen.

[astroron]

I have noticed in the last couple of years the amount of females that have joined iceinspace has been a steady flow and a few of them are very regular posters to the forums:)

"Most of the gents I've met in the hobby are true gentlemen".
I hope you where including me in that statementJeanette:P

[jjjnettie]

You're always the Gentleman Ron.:)
And if there is any ungentleman like behaviour from others, I know that I have you, Paul, Alex and the others to look after me.:thumbsup:

[spacezebra]

Hi Jen

My new moon nights usually wideup about 3am with our society members.

Meanwhile (back at the homestead) partner is home tucked in bed zzzzZZZZZZing or watching Westerns!

I travelled solo to Nhill VicSouth Desert Spring Star Party in 2007 - saw the sun come up and had a ball observing with a great group of guys!

I have no barriers or blockers to my love of astronomy, observe when I like and buy what ever takes my fancy to feed the hobby. Its great and would not have it any otherway.

Cheers Petra d.

[Robh]

I have two daughters. I've always been into maths and science and now, into astronomy. I couldn't get either of them interested in these areas. They followed in their mother's footsteps and are both into the creative arts. I am, of course, proud of them both.

From the posts, here are some of the points ...
Different girl/guy interests (Venus/Mars theory). Social and "peer norms" are influencing choices. Lower pay hasn't allow women the freedom to pursue the hobby. Traditional roles (home caretaker, child-rearing) hasn't allowed women time or opportunity. Unwelcoming, male-dominant clubs. Women are patronized, ignored ... humiliated.


Les, you made a lot of good points but I thought I'd reproduce this one.

Thanks for the honest comments. Awareness ---> Solution.
It's great to see just how passionate the girls here feel about astronomy!
:bowdown:
Regards, Rob.

Feel free to make further comments ...

[JD2439975]

:doh::lol:
Glad you came out of the closet with that one Jen, we never would have guessed.

So how many of the women here think of themselves as Tomboys?
And do you feel you "think" more like a man? (whatever that is).

As for the way women can be treated when entering groups/hobbies/forums a negative emotional response can put anyone off anything, and it only takes one in the group to ruin your day.

Put the losers on ignore and enjoy the day girls.

Things are changing, not overnight but slowly.
As more women act as role models in previously male dominated fields, the easier it is for girls to say "I want to do that, that's for me".
Ya hear that Jen, you're a role model. :scared:

Besides, I've always thought a women "under" a bonnet was much sexier than one draped across it.:D

[Chippy]

Interestingly, astronomy has become one of the physical sciences where a fair proportion of "professional astronomers" are now women. Working for CSIRO (and the ATNF) for many years I can say this with confidence. There is still a majority of men of course, and VERY few older female astronomers, but a fair percentage of the younger to middle aged astronomers are women. This is actively encouraged too, and I believe women are now getting the same level of respect and opportunity for career advancement in this field.

Having said this (and I certainly agree with most of the comments above), whilst the doors to female astronomy are beginning to open more & more, I feel that the level of female participation is (and will likely remain) MUCH lower in "amateur astronomy" circles by comparison. I think there are a number of reasons for this. I certainly hope that it does change (and the faster the better!) but I think it will be a very slow process, and that men will always far outnumber the women in this hobby.

[strongmanmike]

All the relavent arguments regarding this thread have been touched on I guess so this is a little off topic (sorry :P) but someone mentioned the apparent disparity in sallary between men and women in Australia....but no one mentioned the disparity between work related illness and deaths..?..guess what that is..?

LOTS more men die at work than women, in fact it's almost 10:1 :eyepop:Can ya believe that? If that ain't sobering I dunno what is? Imagine if it were the other way around :shrug:? Also, 83% of admissions to casuality wards in Australia for work related injury/illness are men. Hmmm? How come we don't hear these statistics?

Sorry for the digression but sooooo many FAR more important comparissions are over looked in male vs female debates in favour of the more politically correct and dare I say it?..more trivial ones?

Still wish more girls liked asronomy though....particularly my wife :sadeyes:

Mike :)

[rider]

I'm the only male Astronomy nut in my family, and I was introduced to it by Mrs R. (the Astro Goddess) -who by the way owns the biggest scope.

and I'm glad the ladies in my family didn't read this thread, because the adjudicator would have had to remove some angry replies regarding the ancient, discredited "only men are problem solvers, women just read no-idea magazines" attitudes expressed in this thread.

there may be a change to the demographics coming., I am currently doing an astro-course at which there are 7 women and 5 men.

Rider (2)

[multiweb]

Ok... hang on a sec there. Time out! :) Your words, not mine. My argument is that blokes are practical in solving some kind of problems because women will always have an emotional answer to some degree to various situations. I think they are more intuitive, yes but definitely more emotional. Having said that I've got no problem with you reading woman's day. :lol:

[Liz]

As many have said, times are changing slowly as more girls get involved in Astronomy/Sciences/other male dominated domains. That works both ways ..... when I started nursing ....waaaaaay back, there were no boys, or 1 every 2 years, if Matron agreed, now there are guys everywhere!!
Prob about 20% of our Astronomy Group are females, are growing, though it was only me for quite awhile ;)

[rider]

Regardless of numbers, I think the ladies who are into astronomy have contributed above their fighting weight.

Williamina Fleming, Henrietta Leavitt, Annie Jump Cannon, Cecilia Payne, were all responsible for great advances in our knowledge of the universe, (and, I am ashamed to say, that the men each one worked with, took the accolades.)
Rider

[BerrieK]

I hear ya Liz...I'm married to an RN!! I'm a radiographer and there are more male nurses appearing at our hospital all the time. Of course when we lived in Sydeny and worked at RPAH - lots of male nurses there but a different demographic!

Oh and Rider the traditionalist attituds expressed by some on this thread are okay really - everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Everyone has had a different upbringing and life experience that influences their own mindset. All good.

Stongmanmike I hear ya and agree too - these stats are probably related to the proportion of men in the more 'dangerous' professions. Another interesting statistic is that married men live longer than unmarried men, but unmarried women live longer than married women!! Not fair :)

Les D I dont think that you have dug yourself into a hole - you thoughts seem very reasonable in general terms to me!!

I also think that no matter what someone's thought or opinion on a topic there will always be someone who does not fit the defined mould. We were all made different for a reason.

Perhaps I AM a bit of a tomboy (or was when younger anyway)..my boss always tells my I'm such a boy because I wont play the silly bi#$%y games some of the other female staff members play!


Kerrie

[PeterM]

A very interesting thread. Our society (SAS, Brisbane) has had 3 lady presidents for 9 of the last 20 years. Even now our current president Noeleen, fills the role with knowledge, enthusiasm and does a really wonderful job of getting things done.

Our societies newsletter is sent to some 200 members and friends, a quick add up indicates 23 of those are ladies so around 11% and this is also about what I see at meetings. That number is too low but slowly increasing.

What concerns me at our meetings are the extremely low numbers of teenagers, youth, male and female, despite our societies involvement with many school nights, these are in decline to what I remember say 20 years ago. I don't know what the numbers of youth in other clubs in Brisbane are like but from various astrocamps I have been to I suspect they may be low as well. I see this as a very real concern for the future of our hobby. We have an awful lot to compete with in getting youngsters involved, non the least the ever expanding city lights, there is little inspiration to ignite that initial spark and schools appear to offer very little support.

Some years ago a friend of my then 16 year old son stepped outside my caravan at Leyburn exclaiming "whoooaa what's that?" It took a moment ot two before I realised it was the Milky Way he was seeing under a dark sky, he had never seen it like that before.
PeterM.

[Robh]

This is could be a real concern if the trend is widespread. There are only a few youngsters in our local astronomy club. Most are male and 40+ years old.
Regards, Rob

[jjjnettie]

The beauty of Astronomy is that it can be enjoyed by everyone regardless of gender, age and technical ability.
We're all Amateurs Astronomers. Our levels of experience may differ but our enthusiasm is just as strong as the next person.

[Robh]

And that's what I like about this website. Everyone can participate at whatever level they're at and have their say. And venture outside their comfort zone, even at the risk of looking inept or even :screwy:
I'm sure I've been there already!
Sometimes you just have to laugh :lol:
Rob

[marki]

Let me drift back 30 years in time to when I was a teenager. Hmmm $2000 for a scope and long cold nights standing under the stars alone or $2000 worth of beer, parties and perhaps the odd young lady to keep me company :). Tough choice me thinks.

Mark

[strongmanmike]

Ah yes, always an excuse :lol: and that's what it is - an excuse to push it under the carpet...but it doesn't make it right that these terrible comparitive stats aren't blandished over and over again like the "women get paid less than men" or "only some small % of senior executives are women" etc mantras do :shrug:! We have an office for the status of women, in fact a minister, but there aint nobody for us blokes in Australia, even though we are victoms of much more violence, dying left right and centre from preventable causes, getting injured and killed at work 10X more often and our life expectancy is still woefull compared to women.:doh:

Do you know what the difference in logevity is in what you say above? Is is a factor of 10..? Hmmm, I think not Kerrie :whistle:.

Our society is completely desensitised to violence, danger, pain and suffering that men endure, to a point where it is all blarzzay really.

A cuious example - my sister was recently visiting and talking (as she does :scared:)while watching Underbelly on the TV, she was completely oblivious to the violent savage shooting of a couple of blokes at point blank range done with complete contempt for them but when the boobs came on the tube, well oh boy!...she was discusted and only then thought it was inapropriate for her 14yr old daughter, who was in the room watching, to continue to view and remarked "I'm not sure yo should be watching this, cover your eyes dear" :shrug:

To me this tells me a lot about what our society thinks about violence, pain, illness etc in regards to men ie not that much :sadeyes:

Oh well I digress again (for the last time in this thread I promise:P)

...more women in Astronomy I say! :thumbsup:

Mike

[Gallifreyboy]

Average life expectancy australian male 79 years, female 83 years. One of the problems of living longer is that all the extra years are at the end when you are old. Eyesight may not allow astronomy as a new hobby by then.

[iceman]

lol Mike I recall a conversation similar to this at IISAC2008 last year on a rainy Saturday night :)

[strongmanmike]

Yes I remember now :D.

I apologise, my reply's have been slightly off topic, I know, but when ever the equality of pay in the work force claim comes up I just can't help myself :whistle:

Oh and women in fact now live to "over" 84 in Australia, men are still at just over 79 so there is still a 5 yr gap...sheesh, in the 21st century and in a top 20 economy this is appauling IMO :mad2:

err was I digressing again, huh? Ooops :P

Mike

[BerrieK]

Mike (Strongman) I apologise if it appears that I am a female chauvinist pig - this is certainly not the case and apologise if I have offended you in any way!

Sorry this is also off topic but although a few years old, this http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=432108 referenced essay re life expectancy is rather interesting.

Anyhow thats me out of this thread as it seems to have potential to be heading in an inflammatory direction.

Kerrie:)

[spacezebra]

Yes, I remember the conversation well.




Cheers Petra d.

[matt]

Nothing's stopping women from getting involved in astronomy. I find the whole implication that men are somehow responsible for any perceived absence or imbalance quite laughable and usually advanced by those with a larger agenda or axe to grind.

Bizarre....truly bizarre.

But anyway...let's all just live and let live, and welcome ladies everywhere:hi:

Personally...I enjoy having you around.:D Some of my favourite people are women!!!:rofl:

[kinetic]

Peter,

I'm in a very similar 'ongoing experiment' with my two kids.
My only advice would be: keep at it, no matter what happens, they will
be all the better for the experience. Most kids at this very
impressionable age never get that insight or privilege.

Another few observations if I might add to this great thread:

I always envied those great couples like Gene and Caroline Shoemaker
and Carl Sagan and Ann Dryan, who got to share at least a part of
their lives together enjoying this hobby/career etc.

I wish I could share the same exuberance and what the hobby does
for me at a personal level with my partner but it just won't ever
happen. She has her hobbies and I have mine. And that's just what makes
us 'tick'.

Secondly, out of all of the couples and friends etc who have ever
seen my observatory or shared a viewing night here at my place,
I had the most interest and razor sharp questions from the females
of the friends and couples. Just an observation.

Steve

[Baddad]

Hey Kerrie, :)

I have been quite entertained by the interesting points made on this thread. I find that you don't make that many posts but when you do they are intelligent and worth reading.

Anyhow thats me out of this thread as it seems to have potential to be heading in an inflammatory direction.

Don't Go! Its reasonably sublime and unruffled.

I feel its gone into a direction that everyone is providing personal experiences to exemplify the differences in Mars to Venus.

This has been good so far.

Cheers Marty

[Gallifreyboy]

Cheers Steve,
encouragement will keep coming but everything is a very poor second to the Twilight movie and book series for the 11 year old at the moment. Has anyone else had their children abducted by this Twilight phenomena? :rolleyes:
I honestly don't think I was quite as obsessed with Star Wars, Dr Who or Indiana Jones. Come to think of it the Twilight series is vaguely astronomical, at least the titles...Eclipse, New Moon and Breaking Dawn....maybe there is an avenue. The good vampire/ bad vampire deal is harder to link in. :shrug:

[gman]

Q. Why do men die before women?
A. Because we can.

Q. Why do men like astronomy?
A. Gets us out of the house away from women for a little ME time. (for you younger folk - you will understand when you are older)

[strongmanmike]

Hey Kerrie no offence here at all, I don't think you are a female shauvinist and certainly not a pig :love: :innocent:

I just have difficulty with the continual disregard for the real and serious issues that face men in Australia, as if they simply don't exist or are not politically correct to bring up, that's all, so I try to balance it up sometimes...always seems to make me a bit of a radical unfortunately :P Particularly when I have err? kinda highjacked a thread :whistle: oops

More women in astronomy?.. here here! Love it!

Mike

[Jen]

LMAO Petra you go girl i need a astro chick like you in my town i could get some good tips from you :lol::lol: The problem i have is hubby isnt home 5 nights a week he is only home on Fri & Sat nite so it seems hard to give him a peck on the cheek and say see ya im off to check out the stars with another man :lol::lol::lol::lol: :help:
well its worth a try hehehe ;)

[jjjnettie]

:lol: One good thing about being part of the minority in this hobby, is that you get to hang out with the majority.:thumbsup::rofl:

[spacezebra]

Hi JJJ

:lol::lol::lol::lol::thumbsup:

[marc4darkskies]

I reckon there are 2 reasons women aren't much into this hobby. Firstly as someone else pointed out, typically women aren't big on playing with "toys" = finicky equipment. Secondly, astronomy as a hobby is usually quite solitary - and women prefer more communal activities. Just have a look at a star party's gender balance - you'll usually always see more women because of the social interaction (and hubbies with telescopes). Most are probably truely interested in astronomy, but not as a hobby. Men don't care - sure it's nice to hang out with others sometimes, but all we need is a dark sky and a scope.



Hey Jen, I'm no chick (sorry!!), but I'm free any time you want some astro-company! :D The drive might be a bit of a bugger though. :shrug: BTW, my wife will be the one inside making the coffee and chatting with your hubby.;) :D :lol:

Cheers, Marcus

[multiweb]

My boy is really not that interested but my little girl is all over it. Wether I go to Ilford or Crago or any meeting to do with the 2009 Astro year stuff, she wants to be there. :) My birthday card was sprinkled with stars ... and M16 :thumbsup:

[Barrykgerdes]

I am doing my bit.

I gave my 6 year old grandaughter a telescope (proper goto etc) for her birthday. She thinks that is the coolest birthday present ever. Wants to look at the moon and planets all the time. My Grandson (7) already has his ETX125 and by the way Marc I think he got on well with your daughter at that open night.

Baz

[jjjnettie]

:lol: I bought my kids a scope for Christmas 5 years ago. They may not have been all that interested, but it certainly got me hooked.:rofl:

[marc4darkskies]

Half your luck guys... that's great!! Hope they don't outgrow it! My son never even showed a vague passing interest - nada, zip, zilch! :sadeyes:

Cheers, Marcus

[Robh]

Ironic isn't it! I wonder how many others bought scopes for their kids, the kids weren't interested enough to continue, but the parents got hooked.
Jeanette, great outcome anyway!

Regards, Rob.

[Jen]

LOL Marc yeah you are all too far away from me :doh:

[Phil]

The goal for me is to find a partner who enjoys astronomy as much as i do. My last partner had nothing to do with astronomy and got very upset every time i brought something to do with the hobby. So being more the male hobby it does make it hard to find a partner that love astronomy. Maybe one day.
Phil

[erick]

That would make an interesting advert on the "dating" site:-

"Must be thrilled getting close and personal with cold & dark evenings, strange outdoor sounds, mosquitoes and other sundry wildlife, whilst losing sleep." :)

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[multiweb]

:lol: Then you have to take her to Ilford. Nothing's scarier than a possum screaming in the dark :scared: at 2:00am at ground level right behind your back. She'll jump right up in your arms. :thumbsup:

[Baddad]

Own hair,
Own teeth,
Wish to meet woman with interest in Astronomy.
Send photo of Scope, Camera and Mount.:lol:

[Robh]

Hilarious. :rofl:
Now this could define a new basis for astro-rivals trying to win the attention of a future partner. "My scope is bigger than yours!"
Where is this thread heading?

[jjjnettie]

Can you imagine the expense if you had 2 astronomers in the family?

Phil, I can relate to your experience with your last partner. It's hard when you don't get the support you need to pursue your passion.

[ngcles]

Hi JJJ & All,



And what about the never-ending blue if the marriage comes unglued and you fall to bickering over "who gets custody of the the Naglers" in the property settlement.

Perhaps its a good thing I'm married to a non-astronomer who doesn't really have a clue about how much a Nagler is worth. Sometimes it isn't a bad thing that she's "in the dark" about this sort-of stuff ... :whistle:


Best,

Les D

[Skysketcher]

Hello there

This is my first post here, I heard about this thread on Twitter so had to join in.

Astronomy is for everybody, be they man, woman or child. Astronomy and an empathy with the night sky was a natural knowledge for ancient peoples.
Today in the 21st century bringing astronomy back to the people with no gender bias is I think a noble task.
People are people, some are interested in astronomy, and some would never give it a second thought.
In my experience everyone who looks through my telescope at the moon or whatever the target is are in awe and want to know more. Astronomy clubs populated by men or women have an important role to play in this, especially in IYA 2009.
Why there are fewer women in astronomy clubs is it seems a global phenomenon.
The reasons, family commitments certainly are a factor, but I think the main reason is based in the history of education. The sciences were for many decades swung toward the male students.
These days science education is more balanced and women are encouraged to study in that area and become scientists in many aspects of the word. Have you not noticed the increasing proportion of women working in the space business?

For the most part I would not make generalizations about women or men’s personality traits or tastes in movie stars, or gadget preferences. Each person is an individual with many facets; each person brings something special to the world and to their families.
It is my belief that every single child should be given the opportunity to understand the planet they live on, and the sky they look at day or night. Outreach can help to educate, and perhaps address the gender balance in astronomy.



Deirdre

https://twitter.com/skysketcher

[Arman]

Personally, where i work almost everyone has and is saving for a Telescope. Almost everyone and I go out every weekend and all have observing parties. Which I believe is awesome!

I was about to say Women can't save within the threshold of over $800. As us males, we don't require as much primary's :whistle: Where women consider it impossible to save. :D

It is true, women are starting to break the cycle and are generally getting involved with male like activities. :)

[erick]

:welcome: Deirdre

Thanks for joining in. I agree with your comments. I get to show various young people the sight through the scope and I can never say whether it is the young men or young ladies who are going to show the most interest and ask the best questions. Sadly, it remains a small percentage of either who are really struck by what they see.

ps. I enjoyed a quick scan through your blog :thumbsup:

[Robh]

This IYA 2009 is the perfect opportunity for clubs to show their gear, get people to look through their telescopes and generally, promote astronomy.
As you mentioned, the gender biases are breaking down (even if ever so slowly) and more women are getting into previously male dominated fields.
Deirdre, thanks for the input, from half way around the world.

Regards, Rob.

[marki]

Perhaps manufacturers should start producing pink telescopes :fishing::poke::scared3::help:

[jjjnettie]

Ugh no way.
I gave my last scope, a 10" silver dob, ink tatts.
My fav one was of an eagle looking up through the finderscope.

[jjjnettie]

Hmmm Might have to customize my refractors.
I hate that they look exactly like every other scope on the field.

[Robh]

What I can't figure out is why they make white-tubed telescopes. I would have thought black, red or even pink would be easier on the astro-eyes. After all we use red light torches. And after many hours, I start seeing chrome coloured globulars in my eyepiece (the muscles tire in my right eye and I keep seeing the screw heads on the upper tube of my truss DOB). Maybe I should paint them pink!
Regards, Rob.

[marki]

Thats the problem with CATS, no room to customise. No matter which direction you look there is always something in the way. I have a little etx125 with pics all over the tube but they are lost between the forks. I can't even tell you whats on there.

Mark

[astroron]

I have never understood why they make white telescopes, they spoil your night vision and they are a distraction.
Its the same with some observatories painted bright colours inside :shrug:
mine is painted matt black:D

[marki]

Or do it the easy way and buy a CCD camera :). No strain on the eyes then just the nerves :bashcomp:

Mark

[spacezebra]

My new scope (20" SDM soon to be) - is black. Cant wait.... What happened to the thread topic?

Cheers Petra d.

[marki]

Oops, I think we are getting a little off track folks. I might start a thread with no theme.

Mark

[jjjnettie]

Or if you want to enjoy your imaging, buy an astro video camera.:P

[jjjnettie]

:lol:
What was the topic again?:whistle:

And ooh ahhh, the new scope, bet you're getting exciteder by the day Petra!:D

[spacezebra]

:whistle::whistle::whistle::lol::lo l::lol:

Excellent JJJ.

Cheers Petra d.

[marc4darkskies]

Meanwhile .... back on topic ... :whistle:




:welcome:Welcome to IIS Deirdre!! Nice to see another lady in the mix!! Very interesting to see that you combine art and astronomy so literally too - drawing. Love your solar sketches!! :thumbsup:

With respect though, I think the argument that it's an historic educational or cultural bias is no longer true and hasn't been true for a long time. The fact that there is a global bias towards males in astronomy as a hobby (let's keep on topic) supports this and would make me think that there's something intrinsic in men and women that leads to the imbalance. While this might not be a PC point of view, I don't think this concept is a bad thing. Yes, we are all individuals but the genders are not made the same (thank goodness) and I believe each is driven by a slightly different set of intrinsic factors / components / drives etc. These sets of factors overlap a great deal between genders of course, but it looks like the factor that makes men more active in amateur astronomy is typically not in that overlapping bit. What is it - dunno - I failed gender characterisation 101. All us men can do is lament the lack women in the hobby!! :sadeyes:

Cheers, Marcus

[Screwdriverone]

Hi All,

I am probably going to pay for this but.....here goes....................

/startjoke/

Because chicks are afraid of the dark??........

/endjoke/

:scared3:

Cheers ;)

Chris

[Peter Ward]

My point exactly. The French have a saying " Vive le difference' "

You can do as much PC hand-wringing as you like....but I suspect there is nothing sinister going on in Astronomy or any other circles.

Last time I checked the Taliban were not a big force in any Astronomy club in Oz :)

Women are and have been made most welcome. Individual choices/interests are another matter entirely...

[Jen]

Why you little.................... :poke::poke::poke:

Am not ......... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Im not afraid of the dark :) just all the creepy crawlies that come out after dark it what im afraid of LMAO :rofl::rofl:
:whistle::whistle:

Speaking of pretty scopes i might paint mine purple :lol:

[TrevorW]

Easy answer check the mugs shoots in the "post an image of yourself" it frightens them away

:lol:

[marki]

Haha, lucky I have not put my face up there :).

Mark

[g__day]

I do it becuase I find it interesting and its like a skill I can improve over time; the way I do it - apart from these forums - is very solitary, not that it has to be. For my wife its exactly the opposite; she finds it boring - the stars will always be there - so why both look or photgraph them - and if there is no social interaction with her friends involved - then being time poor - sorry its just not going to happen.

Pick a thousand people and give each $10K that you could only spend on one interest - how many would spend it on astronomical gear? From that number I would expect more guys than girls - it can too easily be too solitary for women to be broadly interested in maybe?

[JD2439975]

That may be true Peter, but if I set up my 'rocket launcheresque' telescope at the end of Darwin runway I bet I'd get shot by an airforce sniper before getting the dust cover off.
Maybe next operation 'pitch black' they have up here, point it at an American plane & see just how bad a weekend you can have. :screwy::help:

OK so it's a little off topic but I'm getting there, honest.

The Taliban...Why so few girls? :lol:

I know, I'll leaving, sorry.

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol: umm Trevor i dont see your mug in there :rofl:
:D

[strongmanmike]

Have to agree with your Peter, nothing sinister at all, it's just the way it is.

Having said that, there is nothing wrong with clubs having women friendly factors (?) introduced at some level, it might be worth a try? Exactly what these women friendly factors might be would be up for discussion I guess?

Mike

[leon]

Ok, I have read every word of this topic, and I feel that it is pretty simple.

Men and Women, are just different, and therefore there interest are different, it is that simple.

Leon :thumbsup:

[jjjnettie]

:thumbsup: Cheers Leon.

[KenGee]

I've read this thread I thought I'd add my cents worth. The way I see it we are all odd people out. It is still a world where being interested in a hobby like Astronomy puts you in a small minority, whether you’re a women or a man. We teach our children cultural stereotypes, this is changing slowly. To me the question isn't just why don't we see more women it's why don't we see more people. Evolution may have given men and women different roles in our native habit, but last I checked most of us live in cities and wear cloths. Our brains give us the ability to break out of our instinctive behaviours. The wonders of modern science and the natural world would keep myself and my wife interested in our hobbies for 10 life times. The mindless crap that most people are into leaves both of us shaking our heads:help:........:whistle:

Was I ranting then :screwy: sorry:shrug:

[Glenhuon]

We do seem to be rather thin on the ground. Last place I lived in NSW with a population of ~4000 there were 2 amateur astronomers, me included. Just moved to WA town, Pop. ~25000, so far it's 2 again. But just had a lady approach me re buying herself a 'scope, so maybe the count is about to go up by 50% :) (Found her an 8" Dob, just have to pick it up next time I go to Perth)

Bill

[TrevorW]

Jen it's in there I'm the handsome one, unless someones moderated it out for spite

[Jen]

Nice work Leon :)there is a lot of reading to do in this thread 6 pages :eyepop: now i understand why my hubby always tells me im just different :screwy:

:D:D

[Jen]

:lol::lol: mmm i better go have another look :D

[GrahamL]

At least you wouldn't get that "So your off to meet men in the dark"
chuckle the wife throws my way every time Jen . :)

:whistle:.. hmm wife interested in astronomy ... no thanks .. no way I could of
"possibly " told the odd half truth about the amount of money I have tipped into it so far .

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:
Well i could meet up with her one day and tell her :rofl:
I can be paid in astro toys to keep quiet :lol:
Thats why there is a few astro chicks we are spies to tell all your wives how much you have spent on astro gear :lol::lol::lol:

[spacezebra]

Hi Jen

There might be a few in here that might get a bit nervous by that comment!

[Jen]

:hi::hi: Hi Petra
I bet there would be a few nervous ones out there biting there fingernails right now :lol::lol::lol::whistle:
:D:D