Daylight Saving Time

[glenc]

Do you like daylight saving time?
Would you like it to end earlier?
In NSW DST ends on 5/4/09 when the sun rises in Sydney at 6:10 and sets at 17:45. (not DST).
DST starts again on 4/10 when the sun rises at 5:27 and sets at 17:59 in Sydney. (not DST)
Should we have DST from equinox to equinox?
e.g. Sunday 22/3 sunrise 6:00, sunset 18:04.
and Sunday 20/9 sunrise 5:46, sunset 17:50.

There is an article in S&T about DST.
http://www.skyandtelescope.com/news/41435482.html
also see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_Saving_Time
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/DaylightSaving-World-Subdivisions.png
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:DaylightSaving-World-Subdivisions.png)

[Kevnool]

Its fine the way it is i cant see why somebody has to play with it .
I think it needs to be consistent either have it or dont ,
Thats me.

Cheers Kev.

[marki]

The extra time is great for setting up the scope when I get home. At least its in the day light when I can see what I am doing :)

[Gerald Sargent]

Wishe we had it here

[thunderchildobs]

Daylight saving in Queensland

Glad we dont have it here

[GrahamL]

Lived under both ways for 20 years or so nsw /qld .. thing is you get used to it either way .. for me i'd go with DS ..just .. theres something not right about birds chirping there heads off at 4 AM.. and at night time people start flicking off the lights by the clock .. meaning 10PM DS time I notice theres a lot less people up and about in suburbia... Its only an hour . :)

[AlexN]

Yes, As Do I.... I dont see a reason why not, although as has been said, It must be consistent, have it, or dont... Just having come from Victoria originally, I've had daylight savings as long as I can remember... So I guess I was kind of used to it...

Alex.

[[1ponders]]

Too right Brenden. I'd like to see it get darker sooner. :lol:

[matt]

I'd like it in Queensland...just so we're on the same time as Sydney and Melbourne. We are, after all, technically in the same world time zone:screwy:

[[1ponders]]

Exactly Matt. UTC +10 hours ;)

:lol:

[matt]

You know what I mean, Paul!!!!:P;)

[Jen]

Im not fussed either way there is good points and bad points for daylight savings :D

[marki]

We have to vote on it here soon(again). Last time it was rejected because it upset the cows :D.
Mark

[Quark]

Dont mind it the way it currently is.
When I was working, prior to the advent of 12 hour shifts, I use to look forward to it.

Trevor

[pgc hunter]

I'd have to say I'm for it. TBH, having the sun scorch your eyes at 5am after a night on the grog would be extremely annoying!

[Baddad]

Daylight saving is bad bad bad.

The cows don't like it. They gotta get up an hour earlier for milking.

The extra daylight and sunshine means that people use more power in air conditioning. Power sources are stretched as it is.

It increases the effects of global warming, due to that extra hour of sunshine on the planet.

When I lived in Adelaide the paint peeled off the walls. and that was all contributed by DLS. That extra sunshine is unnatural to the environment.

Above all that why would astro people want an hour less of dark skies??

Cheers Marty;)

[pgc hunter]

Why do people keep saying that there is an "extra hour of sunshine" when referring to daylight savings? No, there is no "extra" hour of daylight, the day is not magically longer and the night shorter. It is nothing more than the time displaced by an hour. There won't be more usage of airconditioners for example, because the day is exactly the same length during DST as it is without!

[leon]

Na, its not for me at all, I hate it when it is so dark in the mornings, late in the season of day light saving.

Leon

[marki]

I think they mean it's an hour of daylight they would not get to themselves if they were still at work. I do not use my aircon during the night or mornings but do when I get home in the afternoons. If I am home an hour earlier it is hotter for longer so my aircon runs for a longer period of time. If you like I am confused imagine the poor cows :D.

Ciao Mark

[Enchilada]

Five important DST suggestions;


We should have daylight savings all year long.
Changed from instead of one hour to two hours (As they did in Australia during WWII in the years 1942, 1943 and 1944)
States or countries who DO NOT change to DST, will automatically have their clocks set back at least FORTY YEARS.
Introduce a law for the use of colour insensitive fabrics to prevent them from fading.
Cows to be force-feed more grass to make up for the decrease in milk production.

[Baddad]

:hi: I know!

[Baddad]

Re: poll on DLS, I am prepared to vote but I am on the fence.
Whether DLS is in or out does not phase me. I adapt. There is no selection for me to put in my two bob's worth in. Thanks for the opportunity anyway. :)
Cheers Marty

[Ric]

I think it's great the way it is down my way. It gives me heaps of time in the afternoon to get stuff done around the farm. As long as I feed and water the chickens at roughly the same time they are happy and lay normally.

The cat tends to get up an hour earlier though and want's his breakfast around 4am.

Cheers

[RuthC]

What nonsense. I hate daylight saving. keep it out of QLD and get rid of it elsewhere. All you who have this notion of saving time and having more time in the afternoon, get yourselves out of bed one hour earlier and stop kidding yourselves. That is all DST is anyway. Getting up 1 hr earlier. Then do it and stop pretending it is 6 AM when it is 5 AM. Start work earlier, open shops start school etc 1 hr earlier and get home early to enjoy the rest of the day.:)

[Enchilada]

Dealing with wild and crazy Queenslanders is one thing, but the lack of understanding of the necessity of daylight savings throughout Australia and the rest of the world still amazes me in the total reckless abandonment of common sense.
Daylight savings is dependant only on THREE main factors. It is firstly mainly caused by the difference between in latitudes - namely, the further south you go the larger the time variances between daylight hours in summer and winter AND that the Earth's axis is tilted at 23.5-odd degrees to the ecliptic. So the length of daylight hours between sunrise and sunset OR night-time hours sunset to sunrise varies only on the apparent declination of the sun. If this were the only variable, daylight savings would not be necessary. However, the other third factor making this more complicated is that the Earth's orbit in not circular but slightly elliptical, causing the times of sunset and sunrise to be increase or decrease up to as much as about 15 minutes earlier or later (as seen in the yearly analemma).
So the closer to the equator the difference is not as significant as those living further south.
In the end it is NOT a kind of blatant latitude discrimination of people. It is a compromise on the mean latitude to make the daylight hours more useful for daily human eight hour work-play-sleep cycle. (We are habitual creatures based mostly on the sun for activity) Furthermore daylight saving is synced mostly to MORNING when the daily circadian rhythms when the electrical activity rises close to sunrise - when our bodies physically anticipating the new day. Its aimed to match human activity so it starts around 6pm every day of the year.
Now most Queenslanders don't want daylight savings while most Tasmanians what more daylight saving - so most Governments just decided on a compromise one hour should satisfy everyone.
So if you must blame something, curse the fact that the Earth is round, it is tilted on its axis, and our orbit in our solar system is elliptical! (Else try to get Government change it to eliminate all the complicated caused of the differences. I.e. planetary engineering.)
Stop wanting to blaming every authority under the sun because someone wants to maintain a delusion that we are messing with nature! Daylight savings is merely a compromise to maintain some normality in our daily lives - so it matches the seasons.

** There is also a significant difference in longitude within time zones, but to keep it simple I have alone brought up this for a given location.

[RuthC]

i still say, get up 1 hr earlier is all you are doing so just do it and stop pretending it is a different time. If in Tassie and you want 2 hr, 3 or 4 then get out of bed when the sun's up and enjoy more daylight. Keep it simple. no need to pretend it is a different time. Open up the businesses early to suit what everyone wants. Thats all that is happening anyway. so enjoy all the daylight you want by getting out of bed earlier. But don't cheat the rest of us by changing the actuall time.

[glenc]

If DST is designed to give more daylight time after work Qld needs it more than Tas.
On 20/12 at longitude 150 east, latitude 20 south, daylight is from 4:47 to 18:07.
On 20/12 at longitude 150 east, latitude 45 south, daylight is from 3:39 to 19:16.
My friends hate DST at this time of year because it is still dark when they have to leave home.

[Enchilada]

For example, from Sydney latitude -34 degrees south, the difference in time between sunup during summer and winter is at maximum about 02h 20m If you add an hour of daylight savings during summer, the difference becomes about 01h 20m. (See Table below) The practicality of changing the time is to obvious.
Also Glen's comment that it is about more daylight in the afternoon is a bit of a misnomer, as the regularity of business, education, and narrowing the difference between sunup and the daily circadian rhythms is far more important. (The more daylight argument is more in keeping the Queenslanders happy and still wanting them to talk to the rest of us! :rolleyes:)

SUNRISE TIMES
Mon AEST or +DST
Jan 04 47 05 47
Feb 05 16 06 16
Mar 05 42 06 42
Apr 06 07 06 07
May 06 29 06 29
Jun 06 51 06 51
Jul 07 01 07 01
Aug 06 48 06 48
Sep 06 15 06 15
Oct 05 33 06 33
Nov 04 55 05 55
Dec 04 37 05 37

For 20 degrees South, the time difference between sunrise in summer and winter is merely about 40 minutes.
For -45 degrees south, the time difference between sunrise in summer and winter is 02h 30m

Clearly the small difference in time closer to the equator have less need for changing the time than more southern latitudes. Hence, RuthC's comment "don't cheat the rest of us" I think it misses the point somewhat, as the difference from her latitude between summer and winter appears minor when compared to say Melbourne or most of Tasmania.

As for astronomy, the twilights make these differences even greater. If you want more hours of darkness during summer you are better of near the equator than the rest of us further south. In summer, Queensland for astronomy should be now as the "Darkness State." (Tasmania the "Twilight State" :rofl:)

** There is also significant time differences in longitude within selected time zones, but to keep it simple I have alone brought up this for a given location.

[RuthC]

Go with the cat. You'll get maximum daylight :)

[RuthC]

I don't know why people have to be so stubborn on this:lol: Whichever latitude you live in, you are still getting out of bed one hour or so earlier to maximize so called DST. There is no need to pretend 4 AM is 5 AM anywhere you live. Allow business freedom of opening hours. Start your day early and enjoy every minute of it. The sun will still rise and set at its usual time. I appreciate the chance to have my say on this topic here.
Ruth

[Barrykgerdes]

My sentiments exactly.

A couple of hundred years ago local areas all used their own time based on the Sun being at the meridian at noon.

This lead to all sorts of problems in itime keeping so someone had the brilliant idea of dividing the globe into 24 segments each with a common time, slightly adjusted to allow adjacent communities to have the same time.

This worked well for many years til governments thought they could save power by making factories start earlier in summer during the war. The general public loved the idea of an extra hour (or two) daylight probably because most actually believed there was extra daylight so it became a regular feature. This was quite well accepted in areas where the summer and winter days and nights had a great variation but the areas near the equator where the day and night does not vary much during the year find it most upsetting to keep changing. That is why Queensland hasn't bowed to the pressure of commerce in the southern states, and of course the cows don't understand what it is all about.

Barry

[wavelandscott]

But is it the same year?

I do not like it Daylight Savings...

[marki]

I think daylight saving was designed to fool teenagers. Imagine if the time was left as is and the kids had to get up at 6am to be at school by 7am. Wouldn't happen and then theres the cows to deal with :D.

[[1ponders]]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[matt]

Fair question....it is a fairly progressive state...being the first to ever elect a female Premier:P

So...NSW and Vic will have to drag themselves out of the 50s

[marki]

Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Carmen Lawrence the first female premier? She was around in the 80's but I can't remember if we voted her in or if she got it by default when Burke stuffed up.

Ciao Mark

[matt]

I don't think she was elected by the people. From memory, I believe she 'inherited' the role after Dowding was 'deposed' in 1990.

She later lost the vote...in '93.

I never said Anna Bligh was the first female Premier. Just the first to be elected by the people.

[marki]

Yes I know, that is what I was trying to remember. I forgot all about Dowding, pretty forgetable premier :).

Cheers Mark

[bones]

I don't mind it the way it is. When it's about to kick in, DST is a relief because there's an excuse to get up when the suns earlier as are the kids but get into the day as if you were going to normally. The hardest part is however, adjusting to the earlier time slot to go to work. When DLS's over, it's like I get to sleep in for an extra hour for a short time while my body clock transitions. I'm sure glad it'll be over soon.:zzz2:

[bsercombe]

Here in Perth, WA it's crap. Not fully dark until 9pm in summer and pitch bloody black as 6am.

[Spanrz]

Both from QLD, hahaha, don't ya love polls!

I'm a Victorian and wouldn't want it any other way. If I lived in QLD, I'd still want it.
In my job, the +1 is very beneficial as it sometimes very hard to fix tractors in the dark.

[norm]

Bring on more DST. I like getting home when there is still light!!!

[Geoff45]

Who?

[Analog6]

I'm a morning person - I loathe and detest DST. I hate having my early morning cool walk time stoiledn by DST.

And because we are just a few kms south of the Qld border and the house faces North with a hill behind it, we can only get Qld TV. So it is all an hour LATER! Grr. News is at 7pm, not 6pm.

And the extra daylight in the afternoon DOES increase energy usage as people are home earlier and turn on their air-cons to cool their houses. And they are up 'later' so miss the opportunity to open up and let early morning cool air come into the house, and tend to turn the a-c on in the mornings towards the middle of summer.

MY partner works from 2am-11am, so we go to bed early and it is still light and hot, makes it very hard for him to get a good night's sleep. Why can't we follow the natural flow of the seasons as nature intended? Why must we be ruled by the clock? Surely if people get to work and work with in a certain set hours limit - say between 8am and 6pm anbd work their required hours, then commerce will not suffer.

I'd far rather go back to no DST at all, Australia wide.

[Enchilada]

OK for those Queenslanders suffering ASI* Here is another idea. :party::party::party::party:
As amateur astronomers shouldn't we be advocating of NST (Nighttime Saving Time)! In summer, we change by -1 hour, making sunset around 6pm and darkness starting by about 7.15 - 7.30pm. This would make observing for more convenient time, give an extra two hours of observing before bedtime. Better still, those closer to the equator will benefit the most!

@>-->--

* ASI - Applied Sardonic Incredulity

[RuthC]

Agreed.
Good to see more people can see the light and standup and say so.

[bluescope]

Daylight saving upsets the natural rythms of the body and can cause health problems according to a study in Europe .... I can't recall which country because I am currently suffering from the end of daylight saving syndrome.

I see no advantage to the sun ( seemingly ) staying in the sky later in the summer as it gets bloody hot here and I want it to start cooling down sooner than later thank you very much. As for astrophotography it sucks not achieving true darkness 'till around 10pm.

Big business are the ones who want it across the whole of Australia as is evidenced by a group of large company business people in Western Australia who are embarking on a 6 week program in WA to convince people to vote for DST ... what more can I say.

Bring on the referendum in May and I hope this time, as in the past, it dies but this time may it die forever. Stop wasting our tax dollars on voting for something that the majority of people have consistently said they do not want.

Now I'm getting off the soap box and getting my NO VOTE registered in the poll.

:thumbsup:

[[1ponders]]

So if 50% of people don't want it and 50% of people do want it (assuming of course this is a random sample that represents a complete cross section of society ...yeah suuure ;) ) then why do we have daylight saving anywhere? There is no majority vote for it anywhere. :shrug:

See previous post by bluescope ;)

I should start a poll. Is there a conspiracy involving governments and big business pushing the implementation of DLS. :lol:


Just joking, just joking!!! :scared: :rundog:






;)

[Enchilada]

The ACTUAL vote I'd like to see is the number of Queenslanders / Western Australians / the Rest of Us who did place a vote. Methinks almost every Queenslander would have say NO judging by the responses.

[Robh]

It's all very clever really. In summer people need their air-conditioning. You start work earlier in the day and work your 8 hours, so government and big business save 1 hour of air-con in the hot afternoon. When you get home, it's hotter for one hour longer so you pay more for aircon. They save money and you pay for it.
Seriously, in Summer we get up to 14 hours of daylight anyway. Why on earth do we need daylight saving! Young kids are deprived of the joys of the night-sky in Summer as they go to bed before the sun sets. If anything, it would be more logical in winter with the shorter 10 hour days.
:screwy:

[Glenhuon]

My own feeling is there should be a once and for all NATIONAL plebiscite on DST. All or nothing is the way to go. Some states having it and others not is counter productive. Which ever way it goes should be a binding decision, and we can stop wasting time and money having these votes every few years. ( I reckon the No's would have it)

Bill

[bluescope]

Many a true word spoken in jest !


:whistle:

[[1ponders]]

;)

[jjjnettie]

Another NO vote from Queensland:thumbsup:

[TJD]

buy the time its dark enough to use my scope it bed time :sadeyes::(get ridd of day light saving what would make sence is to take it back an hour not forward that ways its dark at the same time for allmost all of the year

[TJD]

get ridd of dst ridd of dst gone with dst finish with delta sarar tango no ofence if some one has a aeroplane and thats there call sign

[[1ponders]]

Now that's a great idea! :thumbsup:

[MrB]

Yep, I can't go for my morning surf in summer when DST is here, not enough time to get in a few rides, get back home to shower then head for work..... and then I've got a mean streak a mile wide all day.... grrrrrrr.



I've lost count how many times WA has voted NO.... and now we're going back to vote NO all over again... how many times do we have to vote 'till someone gets it through their thick f'n head?

[TrevorW]

They've got it wrong daylight savings should be in the winter months, it's just as dark getting up in the morning whether you get up an hour earlier or not

[bluescope]

Big business will keep lobbying until it gets what it wants. I heard on the news yesterday that Colin Barnett is now probably going to extend trading hours 'till 9pm every week night ..... WHY ? ..... because big business wants it so they have more hours in each day to rip us off in their stores and kill off the small business people who can't afford to pay staff 'till 9pm every week night. The enormous growth of Coles Myer and Woolworths during the 11 years of Liberal Federal Government has now left us with a virtual duopoly that we will never get rid of. They rip off the producers and the consumers because they can.

I'm starting a Poll on religion next :whistle:

:thumbsup:

p.s. Sorry to get off subject ... my soap box has now been chopped into many pieces ;)

[glenc]

It will be better for observing next week, dark an hour earlier.
It will not be dark at 6:30 am, better for the morning walk.
The international airlines must hate the way DST starts on different days in different countries and states.

[xnomad]

I love Daylight Savings. What's the point of the sun shining in spring before 5:00 in the morning when most people are still sleeping? It's such a waste.

Also it allows me to have surfs after work as usually it'll get dark quite soon. The only problem I have is when they change it as I have to make sure all our servers and workstations at work have the latest patch so that they change their times automatically.

[Kevnool]

Who really cares anyway ...........just put your clock back tonight and all will be forgiven.


Cheers Kev.

[hilb]

I think you'll find most people aren't sleeping at 5am in spring in WA. An awful lot of folks are actually up early in the spring/summer months enjoying the coolest hours of the day, having a walk, riding their bikes or going for a swim. Moving that hour to the end of the day is really stealing that time from them - when it is "naturally" theirs in the first place, and very regularly used.

No, no, no, no, no, no! How many times will we have to vote it out, before it is forever gone here in the west?

Cheers,
HilB...:)

[torr]

I'm also from WA an against it. I'm with you RuthC
Actually I never had DST , I just set my alarm to get up an hour earlier.

Arnt we astronomers governed by the sun an stars, what do you do with all your sundials rebuild em to swivel 15 degrees ?