Big Dob time .. Opinions please

[prova]

More than happy with my ED81 APO and HEQ5-Pro combo for astrophotography and grab n' go but I really think a "big dob" would be a nice addition to my collection.

My initial thoughts are a 12" GSO/Bintel solid-tube but a 12" Lightbridge could be on the cards as well.

I have seen and looked through a 16" Lightbridge and it's dead-set MASSIVE!

Any ideas because on a particular brand and type of Dob and whether the big-dollar jump is worth it from a 12 to 16"

And finally is an Argo Navis a must?

Appreciate any helpful comments to help me with my first Dob purchase.

:thumbsup:

[rmcpb]

If you have the readies and transporting is no problem then the 16" will blow the socks off a 12", simple as that. BUT it is massive, heavy,awkward to move around which are simply the price you pay for the extra aperture. It can be significantly improved by a better base which you could make if you are into DIY.

After saying that, the 12" is a stunner and MUCH easier to handle and you would be really happy with its performance.

As for an Argo, it is not necessary. I have yet to get one and am quite happy but it would be a great accessory but not top of the list.

Cheers

[mozzie]

hi prova on ebay australia theres a 12" lightbridge for auction with argo narvis have a look it could be what your after
mozzie

[astronut]

I've had my 12" Lightbridge for nearly three years.
If I had the time over would I do it again? YES!!
Like most others, I've modified the scope to my needs.
It is very easy to transport considering it breaks into three sections.
It does cost approx $400 more than the solid tube, but it's definitely worth it.
My 2 cents, John.:thumbsup:

[prova]

The one on eBay has a few marks on the mirror so I'd rather not take the risk.

I have narrowed it down to the following and keep in mind, solid-tube or truss really doesn't matter too much:

12" Lightbridge with Astro-zap cover and Argo Navis
12" GSO solid-tube with Argo Navis
12" Orion Intelliscope with object locator but over 2k !!

Budget has to be under 2k total...

Let the games begin and I promise to post detailed pics upon arrival!

[Calibos]

My new 16in Lightbridge fits better and with more space to spare in my small low roof sports coupe than my old solid Tube 12in Orion Intelliscope.

I posted pictures in a lightbridge thread lower down from this one. Scope and car it fits in but not had a chance to take a picture of the scope IN the car yet.

[prova]

I have basically ruled 16in out due to the large leap in cost, that said have you noticed a HUGE difference between the two?

[Paddy]

I loved my GSO 12", but what a difference going to 16"! Having said that I would have real concerns about the portability of a lightbridge 16". But give me star hopping and a bigger aperture over a argo navis any day. All said and done though, I'm sure you'll notice a huge difference adding a 12" to your kit and then you can enjoy another blast later by going to 16" or 18" later.

[ausastronomer]

Hi,

Yes it does matter and it matters a lot. I have a 10" solid tubed dobsonian and it is more awkward to transport than my 18" Obsession. For this reason I will be building a 10" truss tubed dobsonian as a "travel" scope and then selling the 10" solid tube scope. I will never own a solid tubed dobsonian ever again, unless it is on an equatorial mount in an observatory, never to be moved.

The Lightbridge is definately worth the extra cash IMO, if for nothing other than ease of transporting the scope to dark skies.

FWIW I will never own another scope without Argo Navis either. It saves an enormous amount of time and allows you to cover 300% more targets in a night than without it. Caveat. If you do get the Argo Navis and want to "learn" it is important that you spend some time "not" using Argo Navis, so that you learn the night sky, the constellations and how to star hop.

Cheers,
John B

[astroron]

I used solid tubed telescopes for 15 years, I now have a 16"Truss Newtonian and an Argo Navis , and for shear ease of use and portabilety and lots of observing in a night, you can't go past this combination.

[Calibos]

Haven't had a chance to give it first light yet!!:(

Got it just before Christmas and its been clear when I couldn't go out and cloudy when I could. The usual story. The dark(er) site trip I made with a few other lads where I found out it took up less space in my car was clouded out.

That said, I am not expecting to be blown away by the move from 12-16in. Got my first look through a 20in a few weeks ago and while initially I thought WOW when I went back to my heavily modded albeit standard Orion Mirrored Orion XT12i and looked at the same objects through the same eyepiece, what I thought were new details revealed by the 20in were in fact there in my 12inch scope. I just hadn't noticed them before.

I bought the 16in because I knew the truss would make things easier to transport and because I might get into binoviewing. A BV'd 12in with the light split would become an effective 8.5". So by getting a 16in BV'd will become an effective 13-14in. So I will not be taking a step backwards from the brightness I am used to when I get my Denk binoviewer.

Decision was made very easy with the collapse of sterling before Christmas though. Meade were running a massive discount in the UK and US only at the time too so a Meade LB16 that would have cost me 2400 euros ordered from Europe I was able to get in the UK before Christmas for about 1100 euros!!:D Just got in there at the right time. The Meade discount ended with Januarys new stock back to an unsubsidised price and the UK dealers getting less dollars for their pound also had to put up the price another few hundred so the new UK price is up to GBP1800!! The Pound strengthened a bit in the last two weeks too so at the current exchange rate, the same scope from the same shop I got it a week before christmas would now cost me about 2100 euros!!

Basically my point is go for it if there are other reasons you might need a 16in/truss but all things being equal don't get a 16in for an apeture upgrade from 12in alone.

Below is a pic of the LB16 and XT12i together.

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Prova,

I dont think you can get a truss dob 12" AND Argo Navis for under 2K - period.

My suggestion is:

Skywatcher solid 12" SW980 - $850 from York Optical with the 15% discount as an IIS member

Argo Navis to suit - $1076.10 (AN, ALL CABLES, and SW Dob mount hardware package)

Total = $1926.10.

The reasoning for the Skywatcher is the 5 yr warranty, $300 cheaper than the GSO 12" at the moment, Les Dalrymple's review of the SW980. Did I mention the price? 12" GSO ASDX Dob is now $1199!!!! ouch, Bintel has it for $1299!!! Ouchier! Yeah, you get more fruit with the GSO/BT302's but $340 more value? dont think so...plus the SW980 has "the" handles and looks nicer.

If your budget could stretch a little further, or you MUST have a truss dob, I looked at the 12" collapsible SW dob and DAMN, its mighty fine...the Black Diamond finish is better than my Metallic finish paint job on my CAR...... You can pick this up for $1499 (listed on Star Optics, York will match it I am sure) The finish is very sexy and the collapsible secondary cage is a doddle, nothing to undo, VERY smooth, easy to carry, no poles to disassemble etc.

Nice. BUT, even in my opinion, I cant blow an extra $650 on collapsibility for the SAME size aperture. So, $850 bucks it is.

Them's my 2 cents.

Cheers

Chris

[Screwdriverone]

Hi Prova,

After reading the post from AusAstronomer below again, I suggest that you get the 10" collapsible SW Dob for $850 from York (same price as the SW980 solid 12") and fit the Argo to that. Still comes out at $1926.10 but is MUCH more portable.

Cheers

Chris

[Calibos]

Or buy a 6in Orion Intelliscope, take the Intelliscope DSC of it, dump the 6inch scope and fit the intelliscope to the dob of your choice for a lot less than an argo.

Notice anything about my 16in lightbridge above.

I went one better than the 6in intelliscope stipping idea and bought an intelliscope kit designed for Orions German Equatorial Skyview Pro Mounts that was at an end of line sale price of USD$80 (50 euros). Bit of modding and rewiring the handset cable with a new 89c RJ11 jack with a 7.99 crimping tool and I now have added a pretty darned good DSC to my Lightbridge for the princely sum of (50+.89+7.99) €58.87 :D

[Calibos]

Woah, forget that!! just checked the pricing of the intelliscope and argo in Australia, it helps to be the home of the argo and it most certainly doesn't help being as far from Orion US as its possible to be. Nearly AUD$1000 for a 6 inch intelliscope!! Big difference to the pricing in europe and the US. No wonder there is little mention of the intelliscope on these forums and its all argo argo argo!! In the us afaik its a case of 350 us dollars for an intelliscope DSC with a free 6in dob thrown in versus about 7 or 8 hundred USD for the argo. Here it seems to be 1000 AUD for an intelliscope or 1000 AUD for an argo...Hmmm which is better.....no bloddy contest!! :D

[Screwdriverone]

LOL, Nice idea Keith, I have often contemplated similar ideas with Meade LXD75 mounts etc, it is a pity we convicts pay through the nose for imported loaves of bread, that's why we bake (and steal) our own now.

Cheers

Chris

[astronut]

Prova,
The Ebay scope is very good value, even with having to recoat the mirror (approx) $300, you will be way ahead!!:thumbsup:

[Dave47tuc]

Hi Prova,
Plenty of good advice here. But have a look at this scope before you make your mind up.
http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-329

Very nice and easy to move.
Also have a look here,
http://www.spacealberta.com/equipment/dob12/dob12.htm

[prova]

Thanks all for the helpful comments, and yes I have now been converted to a truss-man!

Money aside just for a moment, which of the two would be a better investment?

The Skywatcher truss series or Meade Lightbridge?

[Dave47tuc]

Telescopes are not good investments!!!
But imo the Skywatcher is better. No need for re assembly.

Have a read here. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=37201

[prova]

I've done alot of reading and never plan to go to anything like a 20"+ so I've decided to go for a 16" Lightbridge and initally buy a set of wheely bars, astrozap shields.

I do have to save a little more but I think I'll be dissapointed buying a 12" after looking through the 16" owned by a local (used to be here on IIS).

If anyone is looking to sell their 16" LB, please send a PM!

[Paddy]

A good move I reckon! 12" good, 16" better! Each time I compared my 12" with a 16" (be it a lightbridge or custom made) I found a quite significant difference in the detail that I could observe.

[bobson]

I will have to agree with Calibos and what he wrote about 12" and 16" dobs, he wrote:

"That said, I am not expecting to be blown away by the move from 12-16in. Got my first look through a 20in a few weeks ago and while initially I thought WOW when I went back to my heavily modded albeit standard Orion Mirrored Orion XT12i and looked at the same objects through the same eyepiece, what I thought were new details revealed by the 20in were in fact there in my 12inch scope. I just hadn't noticed them before."

Just a couple a weeks ago I had a chance to compare my 12" Bintel Dob with friends Meade 16" Light Bridge and I was not blown away :(
Mind you, 16" was better but just not that better that I would spend another $1500 for it. In my opinion that money would be better spent in buying couple of good quality eyepieces.

This is just my opinion regarding 12" and 16" dobs.

[ausastronomer]

Hi,

Some of this comes down to observing experience. It can take several years to properly develop and hone ones observing skills to see very faint detail in extended objects. An experienced observer under "dark" skies can sometimes detect a significant difference between a 12" and 16" scope, on dim extended targets, like galaxies, galaxy clusters , dim diffuse open and globular clusters and some planetary nebula. A less experienced observer may not see an enormous difference between 12" and 16" scopes, on the brighter targets, particularly under less than pristine skies.

That having been said, you can do a lot of very serious observing with a 12" telescope. A lifetime of it in fact. In the truss design, a 12" scope offers IMO the perfect compromise between portability/ transportabity and what you can see with it. It will go deep enough to see enough objects that you will not cover them all in a couple of lifetimes. It is also big enough to turn the bright showpiece targets into "eye candy".

Cheers,
John B

[Calibos]

Hmmm, errrr.....its not a case of speaking too soon in the post last night because tonights first light was on pretty much 1 object and one can't judge from a sample of 1 but...... :D

Tonight I had a beautiful clear sky but as usual its during the time of the month near full moon. The moon was 90º away from the target. My scope hadn't cooled down. I didn't have a shroud, I haven't painted the endrings yet or fit a lightshield so the 2 orange streetlights about 20ft each side of my viewing position lit up the focusser, inside of mirror tub, endrings like orange neon, all visible in the eyepiece. I was only out about 20 minutes so even if it were pitch black I would not have been fully dark adapted and so with the streetlights making the street like a hazy orangey sunset/dusk, I definately could not have even started getting dark adapted.

So this was not an observing session or observing first light. This was basically just to test out my intelliscope mod which worked beautifully btw.

The target I tasked the intelliscope with successfully locating?? (I can find it blindfolded obviously, this was for testing the computer :D )
M42.

Now unless there is something psychological going on in my subconcious hoping to convince me I haven't wasted my money but.....tickle me pink if I didn't have what I believe to be my most detailed view of M42 ever and thats compared to my fully lightshielded, flocked, cooled, boundary layer removing fanned XT12i from my dark sky site!!

Now I don't know, maybe if I had set up the XT12i too to compare side by side I would say the difference wasn't as much as I thought. Maybe I am making the same mistake I did with the 20in view and then realising my XT12i was nearly as good but if tonights short views were anything to go by......I cannot wait to do all my mods and get this thing to a dark site!!

So this wasn't a thorough enough test or comparison to definitively say I was wrong in my last post about the improved views probably not being worth it but the question in my mind is certainly wide open again.

[Paddy]

I have to agree with John about observing experience. Had I compared my 12" and 16" as a novice, I would have found little difference. After a few years of observing, what I can see through my 16" is far more detailed than I ever saw through 12". I also agree that a 12" scope will show enough to excite for many years.

[prova]

Thanks for the all the advise.

I have now set my heart (and my wallet) on a 16" Lightbridge with Argo Navis, main problem is with the US dollar the way it is at the moment is finding one at a reasonable non-inflated price ..

Hmm!?