Why is it so?

[Dog Star]

It appears to me that the vast majority of us (and I'm one of them) refer to themselves as "amateur astronomers." I know I do.
Perversely though, bird watchers (and I'm one of them too) don't refer to themselves as "amateur ornithologists" despite the fact that most bird watchers have an extensive knowledge of and experience with their intended quarry.
Thoughts, anyone?

[Kevnool]

So since i construct roads for a living ( as i get paid) this should let me be titled Road Constructor instead of the farmer who makes a road to his letterbox (who dont get paid) should he be called Amateur Road Constructor.
Is this the path we going down?
Cheers Kev.

[Dog Star]

Not exactly. I'm asking what path you go down and why?:)

[jungle11]

I'd call myself an enthusiast, but I dont see anything wrong with A.A. The Ameteur makes it ok - BUT, Ive talked to some pretty knowledgable people here, and since A.A.s make alot of discoverys and give their career professional counterparts the heads up - then the title is well deserved.:)

Perhaps some among us would be more inclined to knock 'amateur'

[Barrykgerdes]

Hi
Being an amateur at anything does not mean that you can't be the best in your field. It just means you don't get paid for it. This often means that you can get better results. You all know the old adage "He who pays the piper calls the tune".

I am an amateur when it comes to computer and electronic repairs. That is why I only get to work on equipment that the pros can't fix. A pastime that I am quite successful at.

Barry

PS My income comes entirely from the government as an old age pensioner and CSS. I suppose that means I am a professional loafer.

Barry

[GrahamL]

Its a term to describe those who havn't yet found employment in the field they would so like to ... or for a proffesional astronomer whos grant funding has run out and there between jobs:)

Calling astronomy a hobby is one I find a little weird ..as its ..nought ..a hobby!!!!.. its much more obssesive than that:D

[Galactic G]

"Atmospheric pressure does the work."

However, a serious answer may be that "Amateur Ornithologist" just doesn't roll of the tongue like "Birder" or "Bird Watcher" does. On top of that, if you surveyed a group of people, most would know what an astronomer is, but may not know what an ornithologist is, whereas to brand yourself a "bird watcher" overcomes this problem.



You've probably stated the real answer right there. Since those who pursue amateur ornithology prefer to call themselves "Bird Watchers" the expression remains in use. However, I note that "Amateur Ornithologist" is often used to describe this group especially when grouping them with "Professional Ornithologists." IE. "A group of professional and amateur Ornithologists surveyed a field" is more likely to be written instead of "A group of professional ornithologists and bird watchers surveyed a field."

At the end of the day it's probably easier to blame Edmund Selous. If only he'd called his 1901 book "Ornithology" instead of "Bird Watching" :shrug:

[Enchilada]

Dog Star
The term I happen to prefer is the rather archaic word astrognosy (astrognosist, being the science or knowledge of the stars, especially of the 'fixed' visible naked-eye stars. This implies not outstanding knowledge of astrophysics or the mathematics behind it, and still distinguishes one from the lameness of astrology (sincere apologies for using such language on such a family site.)

This word astrognosy is probably best known from the chapter with the same title by 1858 book by Alexander von Humboldt "Cosmos : A Sketch of A Physical Description of the Universe" (1859) in four volumes - Vol III being on astronomy matters. (An on line copy of this work is at the Library of 19th Century Science The Golden Age of Geology ;
http://www.geology.19thcenturyscience.org/books/1858-Humboldt-Cosmos/Vol-III/htm/doc.html. Here, a lovely definition and introduction appears from pg.26 onwards.

This classic book is often quoted, and is a must-read if you are want information on general historical astronomy or classical view of the Heavens.

It is interesting about your "amateur" ornithologist inclinations, which by birds you mean birds of the feathered or avifauna variety and not either federal narcotic agents, nor the contradictory, whoops, I mean opposite sex?

Also is the general slang for bird watchers like "twitter" or "tweet" derogatory or offensive?

For amateur astronomers, astro is probably acceptable, though years ago, some of the woman at work once amusingly use to call me "Astro Boy" just to rile me, or if after a weekend stargazing, just "Perve." :doh:

[acropolite]

I think it's just one of those descriptions that have evolved to be accepted as meaning professional.

To me an astronomer is one who works professionally, just as a Pilot is one who flies planes for a living. I have a private pilot's licence, but have never describe myself as a pilot, I simply tell people I have a private pilots licence. Similarly the term Technician is generally used for those who work professionally in the industry as is builder, carpeter and plumber.

Diver on the other hand is a term used for both professional and amateur, the destinction being made with prefixes, Navy Clearance diver, Abalone Diver, Oil Rig Diver, Police Rescue Diver etc.

I guess it just amounts to the general perception of the term, personally, I don't even like to be labelled an amateur astronomer, I'm simply a person who enjoys astronomy as a hobby,

[jungle11]

Ooo I don't know.
My mother's 'hobby' is scrapbooking. 24/7 scrapbooking

Believe me 'obsession' in in the eye of the hobbiest

:lol::lol:

[Dog Star]

This is all well and good and I thank all who have replied:thumbsup:
My reason for starting this thread was two-fold:
1. I wondered if perhaps I was in fact wearing my britches a bit high by calling myself an amateur astronomer and thought I'd get a gauge of how fellow IIS'ers felt about the term.
2. The English language and its modes of thought and subtleties of expression fascinates me (amateur linguist, anyone?:D) and I was curious as to how others view the term and its associations.
Hmm. Guess it's back to the old "star gazing" then. Oddly enough, this isn't a term that I'm entirely happy with either.
Damn! I so wanted to be an astronomer:sadeyes:
May the Western spotted bower bird sing to you all!:thumbsup:

[Jen]

:screwy::screwy: well i class myself as a wannabe astronomer :lol::lol:

[Dog Star]

Onya Jen.:lol::thumbsup: That just might be the term to use.

By the way Enchilada, many thanks for your link regarding the astrognosis:thumbsup:
Quite an interesting read. Think I might have to read the entire book.
As to the type of birds I watch, I guess I'd have to say all 3 ;):D

[TrevorW]

I never refer to myself as belonging to a AA group even though I should sometimes

Hic !!! :drink:

[Enchilada]

Jen,
Thanks so much for the remark. Haven't had a laugh out loud (LOL) moment all day!
However at my own advancing age, mine would be more like the "no hope in Hades" astronomer. Perhaps I should had just studied that little bit more when I was in school? :scared: I corumba ! :P

[Enchilada]

AA. I presume you mean by AA an Alcoholic Astronomer? :lol:

[Glenhuon]

I'll drink to that :)

[Zuts]

Thats tripple A, or do I mean tipple A, Alcoholic Astronomers Anonymous :)

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol::lol:
LMAO :thumbsup:

[Wavytone]

surely you mean "astrognowitall"... ;)

[Gargoyle_Steve]

Phil I often use the "amateur astronomer" term to describe myself, but I was once "corrected" by someone who was firmly of the opinion that as I have no actual tertiary qualifications in astronomy I shouldn't be calling myself an astronomer of any kind!

(I wonder what Galileo, Copernicus, etc, would have to say on that?)

Anyway I sometimes use the term "backyard astronomer" as I think maybe it gives people a clearer picture of what I do, and I was once referred to as an "astronomy enthusiast" by a radio announcer.

Whatever name we use for ourselves, the viewing (or lack thereof) is exactly the same, and no more or no less enjoyable!
:thumbsup:

[Dog Star]

Just one final thought on all this;
The title on the top of the page reads - Ice In Space - Australian Amateur Astronomy. ;):shrug:
Why is it so?

[rally]

If "Bird Watcher" is good enough for amateurs in the avian field why isn't "Star Gazer" or "Star Watcher" appropriate for us ?

But if you are photographing the sky are you automatically an "Astro Photographer" or does that depend on the level of gear and the standards attained or your formal training ?

[Enchilada]

Quite simple. This is associated with astrology and the (unnecessary) Jewish / Arabic tradition of looking for the appearance of the new moon for the beginning of each month. Tradition favours the separation of astrology and astronomy. Do you want to be associated with the astrology (swear word intended.) ?

[Barrykgerdes]

The world is run by people (idiots) who have lots of tertiary qualifications but not the foggiest idea on how to apply them. Look at the mess they are creating.

Baz

[renormalised]

Who was the snob who said that??!!!. I wonder just how well "educated" that person was.....I love idiots like that. I've come across so many of them in my day and I take a great deal of pleasure in bringing them down a notch or 6. They seem to think they're the ultimate authority in what is known and who should know what, that in reality they know very little at all. Even about subject matter to which they've spent a great deal of time "learning" at an university and/or TAFE. Like all "experts" they think that what they know is all there is to know. Truth is, the more you learn, the less you actually really know. It's a truth some of these people seem to forget and should take heed of.

I've been an amateur astronomer for many years, and within a few short years hope to make that a professional qualification. However, I'll never relinquish being an amateur because no matter what I might do as a professional astronomer, I will always take great pleasure in observing with whatever equipment I may have at the time. Love to see one of those tools say something to me like what that one said to you, then. I wouldn't be able to stop laughing!!!....at them.

[marki]

Although I hold several tertiary qualifications I can certainly relate to the sentiments below. The problem with university is that many people spend more time drinking and socialising (not that I have a problem with that :D) then learning their craft. It is not uncommon for graduates to leave with a pass average and very little knowledge let alone practical application skills in their area of study. Still many seem to complete the unofficial unit A101 "how to be an arrogant obnoxious sod" with honours and will use any opportunity to exert their superior intellect on other lesser beings.

To me "amature" means to do something you love without expectation of payment. An "astronomer" is someone who studies the stars. So an amature astronomer is someone who studies the stars for the love of it. Fairly simple I would have thought. Perhaps it would be better not to elevate amature astronmers to the unobtainable but rather elevate those gifted individuals who carry out real research along side the professionals to the status of semi proffessional astronomers. I for one will continue to call myself an amature astronomer as I am still paying for the pleasure, I love star gazing and have so much more to learn.

Cheers Mark

[Kevnool]

Maybe then my son could give me a grant next weekend to observe the eskimo nebula and report on the magnitude of the central dying star.....and call myself KEV the ASTRONOMER (kev now comes back to reallity)......Gotta run...Cheers Kev.

[Jen]

:lol::lol::lol:

[marki]

It is a bit like splitting hairs isn't it. But if the label fits......... :)

Cheers Mark