Obama to merge Pentagon-NASA

[leinad]

I saw this today, and it really got me thinking about the advantages and disadvantages/consequences.
I'd be interested to hear others comments on this. Please stay on topic.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aGMy_XFWN_VY&refer=home

[Ric]

Not sure about this one but then again NASA has been launching military payloads from the shuttles for years so I don't think much will change to our eyes.

I'm not into this space race idea, my thoughts are that the world as a whole should be working together when it comes to space exploration. I think we would be progressing a lot further than what we have so far.

Cheers

[bmitchell82]

ide have to say very interesting, i have known for a while that they have been planning to send people upto the moon, but the chinese putting craft into orbit around the moon, that would be trippy!

Lets see what happens now.

[Glenhuon]

I suppose on the economic side it does have advantages, less duplication of effort in developing hardware, but I can forsee the science side becoming secondary to military ones over time. The pentagon and other military organisations throughout the world are not known for playing second fiddle to civilians.

Bill

[Jen]

Yes i totally agree Ric :thumbsup: you cant rush art :D they all should have their heads together on this one :)

[renormalised]

Greatest mistake they could ever make. Give the military a greater grip on NASA than they already have and you'll see just how dire things could get. I, for one, don't want to see a group of paranoid, juvenile, square jawed jarheads get their grubby little fingers into anymore stuff. Eisenhower warned of what would happen if the military-industrial complex got their own way and civil law and order was ignored for the sake of power and greed. $2.3 trillion missing dollars that can't be accounted for by the US DoD over the last few years is a symptom of what Ike warned about. Giving these people more to play around with would be a huge mistake.

I don't want to see a militarisation of space be given carte blanche by a bad decision on the part of the politicians.

Quite frankly, I don't want to see science become hijacked by the generals (and their underlings) for the sake of "national security" (which is a load of nonsense to begin with).

[jungle11]

It certainly doesn't bring good thoughts to mind at first glance. I just hope the reasons are honourable, and remain so. If i was Russia or China, I wouldn't be to impressed. But who knows what they're doing? Hopefully this isn't a responce to something we aren't aware of yet.
But it does make sense as a cost cutting excercise - fingers crossed.

[Rodstar]

America is in an invidious position.

The world criticizes it for its interventionist approach to international security issues (ie suggesting it should keep its nose out of other people's business), but at the same time expects it to do all of the hard yards, for the good of all, in relation to such matters as space research.

The fact is that for many years the US has contributed to the world's knowledge in terms of space research and development to an extent completely out of proportion to its relative population size, regardless of whether that contribution has been borne out of Cold War anxieties or domestic security concerns, or for more altruistic reasons.

As China, Japan and India increasingly look to space, and the US economy faces a deep recession, that the US would look to more cost-effective ways to harness its knowledge and technology is entirely reasonable and predictable.

It is surely naive to imagine that NASA has ever had a free hand, or that its work is somehow apolitical. The huge budget NASA runs on has to be justified to Congress, and so, like all science, practical application and national prestige have always been underlying raisons d'etre. The Cold War led to the Apollo Missions, one just has to remember some of JFK's speeches on this issue.

I like others think it will be a shame if NASA's agenda is increasingly militarised because knowledge and technological developments may not be made so freely available to other nations. However, on the other hand, it is often said that war is the mother of invention, and perhaps the sharing of rocket technology will hasten US space exploration efforts.

[CoombellKid]

I'm glad I'm not his neighbour, look whats he's done to that poor fella :eyepop:

[Omaroo]

My question is whether the US military currently has a human-rated launch vehicle capable of performing tasks such as lifting the Orion spacecraft. I can't imagine that the military have vehicles designed to convey people, as such. Then again, the Ares 1 that was specifically designed to lift Orion might make it into the military books, rather than the other way around. Does the military have anything close? The Challenger and Columbia disasters have somewhat increased NASAs insistance on this.

[Gerald Sargent]

"America is in an invidious position" - true, but who put them there ?
If the "successes" of the Pentago can be used as an indicator I think
it would be safe to say that NASA Science would peter out into a
series of disasters. Gerald

[thunderchildobs]

Maybe it we tell George W Bush there are weapons of mass destruction and oil on the moon and mars, we could get funding for a fleet of spaceships and moon / mars bases :)

[JethroB76]

:lol:

[netwolf]

Mankind has a history of discovery for the sake of conquest and conversion for capital gain. So there approach to Space is not shocking or new, its in line with our past actions. I would assume that links already exisit between the two, however now they will share one budget.

I am very much a pro world uniting kind of person. But it has not happened yet. And Obama must do what is best for the people who elected him in a uncertain ecconomic climate he must be economically responsible. Much as I would like to see a world wide joint effort and consensus on space exploration. Before consensus on space, we must find consensus and sue for peace on this planet. As much as I would love to explore space and journey far and beyond, i think first we must commit ourselves to some form of unity in this planet. I would gladly say close up NASA and every other space program and put the money towards better pursuits on this planet. And for a dreamer of stars and space like me that is no small thing to sugges.

Perhaps at the least to limit the spending. Perhaps that is Obama's goal to limit this spending to use funds for other more needful things.

[jungle11]

When America began looking to space, wasn't it a 3 pronged effort by the armed forces respectively. Then the best hardware was further developed by a newly created NASA?

The military have no doubt much refined missile technology in the last 30 years that could help make rockets cheaper, more efficient, perhaps even safer. Better guidance systems. Perhaps better communications to be employed once they reach the moon as well. Personally I would have thought this stuff would have been shared between the agencies before now. So I guess their just cutting away some beuracratic tape.

[leinad]

Thanks for all your comments and thoughts,

I think Michael Griffin wasn't too happy about this idea either. Maybe had a spat at Obama?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/8189325

[bmitchell82]

Ide have to say that if you think that military doesn't have its hands deep in the pie of nasa then you must be dreaming :D do you think that the JPL are working on the cutting edge of ion and pulse drives.? the implicatoins of using such technology in military might would be domination.

Pretty much back in the earlier part of the 20th century when the spit fire came to the fore i think it was, it was domination. like net wolf said, its all about conquests of powerful men. Its only in the days of information aka internet, foxtel, international journalisim that we even know about anything.

Remember how we got mobile phones, laptops, efi cars, Nasa, why was Nasa formed, like net wolf suggests from the cold war. so i guess this is just another step. Think of what these brilliant minds could do with a few extra trillion in the burner??? Im all for it if it makes the advancements of the world.... it doesn't matter who does it

[renormalised]

Hedy Lamaar invented the concept of the mobile phone and broad spectrum communications, laptops came out of Xerox PARC, efi cars were invented by Bendix and NASA was formed in 1958 to take control of the space program away from the military (or at least attempt to) and put it into a more accountable civilian agency. We have no need of a mob of chest beating, macho, uber-patriotic fools running around out in space as our representatives. First thing they'll do is shoot first and then we'll suffer the consequences of their stupidity. What we need is intelligent, considerate and cautious representatives. People who are smart enough to see through any hard sell or spin any aliens we might meet (in the future) may want to push our way, and be able to stand on our own if need be, but diplomatic enough to know when not to start wars or upset anyone of importance. However, they also need to be accountable to the citizenry of the planet and not beholden to a small cadre of government or secret organisations....accountable to no-one but themselves. Military and civilian objectives rarely meet and even where there are military who support a broader cause, they usually aren't the ones in those positions to be able to make any changes.

BTW...NASA's budget is around $15.8 billion a year, 0.58% of the national budget. They spend more on currying favours with lobby groups each year than they care to spend on space.

[leinad]

Id have to say though, that's a pretty impressive engineering bio, no ?

Earlier in his career, Griffin served as chief engineer and as associate administrator for exploration at NASA, and as deputy for technology at the Strategic Defense Initiative Organization. He has been an adjunct professor at the University of Maryland, Johns Hopkins University, and George Washington University, where he taught courses in spacecraft design, applied mathematics, guidance and navigation, compressible flow, computational fluid dynamics, spacecraft attitude control, astrodynamics and introductory aerospace engineering. He is the lead author of more than two dozen technical papers, as well as the textbook, "Space Vehicle Design."

A registered professional engineer in Maryland and California, Griffin is a member of the National Academy of Engineering and the International Academy of Astronautics, an Honorary Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), a Fellow of the American Astronautical Society, and a Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers. He is a recipient of the NASA Exceptional Achievement Medal, the AIAA Space Systems Medal, and the Department of Defense Distinguished Public Service Medal, the highest award given to a non-government employee.

[Enchilada]

What is going to now happen with the hush-hush military spacecraft - the so-called 'Black' Space Shuttle ? (Note: No racist overtones implied, It so named in the late 1990s because it is not suppose to exist). Now perhaps the XB-70 Valkyrie and Dynasoar technologies will be revived or revealed - at least this might fill the gap between the civilian shuttles and the 2015 Constellation programme.

Also nothing beat go ol' American capitalist ingenuity.... real competition.
Go. China, China, China...

[bmitchell82]

... Dan i think Ian robertson is right... :) that guy isn't distinguished enough, i mean i belive that he would be struggling to understand how to attach a wing on a paper aeroplane!!! pffft, I think ide be good for the role!

HAZZZZAAAR!:P

[renormalised]

Oh, he's distinguished enough....you only have to look at his academic and professional credentials. What's most important is whether he's a "yes" man, or his independent and will speak his own mind when and where he needs to. Even if that means he upsets a few pollies and beaurocrats in the process.

We don't need a "yes" man at the head of NASA.

[astroron]

The BIG question is has he been a YESMAN in his current tenure???????

[renormalised]

I haven't been following the news at NASA lately to be able to figure that one out, but I can imagine any Bush appointee being a yes man to some extent.

[astroron]

"It aint neccesraly so" mr Gates as defence secratery is being used by Obama and so area number of former bush appointees.
As you say , you have not been following what has been happening so you can not pass judgment, and say he is a yes man.

[leinad]

..and an Obama appointee not being a yes man?

[astroron]

leinad, have you/do you work for a boss, if so do you say NO to him/her?

[leinad]

Meaning?

[astroron]

If you don't understand the inference, it is not worth continuing.

[leinad]

Yeah, understood. Just that I wouldnt mind further elaboration.

edit: LOL, I think I threw the thread off-topic myself.

Whatever the outcome, and if they do proceed with the idea, I hope that international co-operative space exploration will prevail in the future to benefit 'all', no matter who gets there first.

[dalemadison]

As someone who spent 20 years working in the US Air Force 'space business' you'd be surprised how much overlap there currently is. Most of Cape Canaveral is run by the Air Force. The adaptive optics used at places like Keck was developed to track and photograph satellites in the 1980s. As for man-rated rockets, you could just re-engineer the current Delta and Atlas heavy lift vehicles. Remember in the 60s, Mercury and Gemini were launched on re-engineered ICBMs. In these days of fiscal constraints using economies of scale might not be all bad

[astroron]

On second thoughts, Obama does want Yes men/women,"Yes We Can Men and Women"
President Kennedy said "we will go to the Moon" a lot of doubters said NO we can't, but a lot of others said YES we can and they did:)

[leinad]

http://www.space.com/news/090113-obama-nasa-administrator.html

WASHINGTON - U.S. President-elect Barack Obama has asked retired Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott Gration, one of his top foreign policy and military advisers during his campaign, to take the helm of NASA, according to a source informed of the selection.

[renormalised]

We'll see just how well this appointee goes and what the future holds for NASA, but I'm not that too optimistic. But then again, he may surprise us all.

[mabsj2]

it would be better if they just shared Technologies among each other. totally merging the two organizations is not a good idea considering the interests of both organizations.

[mabsj2]

Totally agree