Lost Newbie

[Robert9]

Hi all. I initially joined the group to find out about the Celestron 127 at DSE's, but also find a group of very interested/ing and friendly people. I've also now found quite a bit of info to the extent that I've become confused (not unusual for me). I've read that the celestron 127 is "not worth buying" to "its great". http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/shrugging.gif
I can't really see myself extending gratly into the world of astronomy, living as I do in suburban Melbourne, but I thought this would be a good scope for when I go off bush in the caravan where nights are dark and skies fabulously clear. Going to Harrietville in January. Tucked into a valley, no city lights, clear skies etc etc. SHould I get the 127 or would it be a waste? Please advise.

Robert http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/helpsign3.gif

[gbeal]

Robert.
depends, like anything in this game.
If you have had nothing prior to this, then it will satisfy your appetite, and probably make you want bigger/better.
Where a lot of folk go wrong is by suggesting that this style of scope is not worth buying, when they compare it to what they have. In my case, I likely started with something like this, and have progressed over the (45+) years.
Before you buy, can you get together with others in your area? This will allow you to see what others are using and try them. It may mean you sit tight and get something better. If I had to be honest I would have suggested buying from a more specialized astro outlet, not DSE.
Gary

[Zuts]

Hi Robert,

I think Gary gave you three great bits of advice.

(1) Go and see what other people are using at a local astro society (if possible).
(2) Purchase from a dedicated Astro outlet.
(3) Buy the DS scope on price only, and it would need to be a damn good price.

Why

(1) You will get honest opinions from people at your local society and better still can look through other peoples scopes so you will be under no illusions about what you will be buying.
(2) I have been to a number of viewing nights and to date have never ever seen somebody turn up with a DS special. They may have them at home in the garage but they never use them once they get a better scope.

DS is not an astro outlet. The only reson they sell scopes is to make money and the scopes they stock to do this are slanted at one type of buyer, the impulse buyer. Therefore the scopes will be the lowest cost to produce (not necesarily lowest price) scopes available, with all the cutting of corners this implies.

So I think it cant possibly hurt to at least talk to the staff at a dedicated astro shop. I see you are in Melb, so why not visit Bintel.

(3) Even so the DS scopes are usually overpriced for what you get. However they will form an image of the moon, planets and so on so if you think this is as far as you will go and if the price is right then by all means get one. Remember the following though.

(i) It has a built in barlow.
(ii) This is because it has a spherical rather than parabolic mirror.

Why is the above important? It means you will never be able to upgrade focusers use the scope for decent photography and so on. Basically except for buying a few additional eyepeices its potential is as is out of the box and it cant be tweaked. Now given the price and your appetite for astronomy this may not be an issue.

Cheers
Paul

[JethroB76]

The celestron powerseeker 127 at DSE is a very ordinary scope. It was recommended on a thread just the other day for a newbie even though it uses a spherical mirror and the much hated Jones-Bird system for doubling the focal length of an OTA by using a cheap barlow/corrector buit into the focuser.

Those that buy these types find collimation a real pain and even try modifying the scope with new OTAs etc, but in reality they are just cheap junk; and then theres the mount which will most likely disapoint.

The fact is you get what you pay for in this hobby. You really need to look to spend at least $350-400 to get a decent scope or maybe a little less secondhand. IMO ~$220 for the DSE scope is a waste when you could get a 6" Dob from Andrews or similar for about $350

[Robert9]

Thanks a million for your responses. I guess I'll up my budget a bit and look at a wider field. Certainly your advice has been what I wanted and is taken with many thanks. The 6"Dobs seems to be the way ahead. Wonder whether I can get something before I go away???

[rmcpb]

Robert,

Have a good read of this thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=38437). Lots of good ideas and options have been tossed around for a base level scope that may suit your initial needs.

I say initial because , if you have a great time with a small one initially it won't be long before you are saving for a larger one. Happens to us all :)

Cheers

[gbeal]

While I am only guessing, I would almost be certain that most astro outlets near you would have a 6" dob in stock, and at a cost you could afford.
It will be a far better idea, and will allow you to see a whole heap more.
Gary

[Robert9]

What additional sort of mount is required for the Dob? Lying on a dewy ground for half a night doen't seem like being too much fun.
I read through the other thread you recommended Rob and found it very interesting. I looked at the BinTel site but they don't show their 6" Dob although I was able to find it via a circular route. I Have the impression though that it is discontinued.
Andrews have a second hand Guan Sheng GS-500, complete with SV1 mount/tripod, bonus RA drive, etc. for $349. Who are Guan Sheng?

I'm still slightly bewildered by the poor reports on the Celestron. I thought they made good stuff!

A slightly different aspect. What are the care difficulties/requirements with a reflector type telescope compared to a refractor?

[andrewk_82]

Hi Robert,

The dob would not require any additional mount as dob is short for dobsonian and it is actually a name for the type of mount that the telescope is on. The telescope is the same as a newtonian mounted on an equatorial mount but it is on a dobsonian mount. The dobsonian mount is cheaper and easier to use. Here is a link to Andrews' communication which show both dobsonians and equatorial mounted scopes http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm

Guen Sheug Optical scopes are quite good value for money, with quite good optics (you'll notice that nearly every second person on these forums has a Guen Sheng telescope). I think the deal you have been offered is quite good (you can see on the above link that the current model of that scope is selling for $499 without an RA drive).

Reflectors do need collimating which becomes quite easy with practice and the right tools. There are many threads and guides on this forum regarding collimation. You do get more bang for your buck though with a reflector.

I hope this helps

Cheers

[Robert9]

Thanks for that info Andrew. A follow-up visit to the Guan Sheng site let me see what the GS500 looked like.
The few pics. I've been able to see of Dobs scopes haven't been too clear on showing where the eye-piece fits. It seems it must be close to the aperture alongside the finder-scope. Thus, I guess, one only needs a comfortable stool.
I think the time has come to actually visit a shop, perhaps BinTel, and actually see some scopes in the flesh. The 6" BinTel Dobs might well be the go, if they still have/make them.

[andrewk_82]

Hi Robert,
The focuser on the dobs is next to the finderscope.
Visiting Bintel sounds like a good idea as their scopes are also very good (in fact they are Guen Sheng telescopes, just re-badged with bintel labelling).
Good luck with your purchase

[Robert9]

Ah ha! OK on BinTel. I have the feeling that Saxon telescopes are the same as Orion who are.....
Yea verily I doth say. BinTel to see come Monday. :-)

[bobson]

Hi Robert

MyAstroShop has SkyWatchers 6" Dobsonian for $369

http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-063

But I would go with SkyWatchers 8" Dobsonian for $465
I had this one and can say its very good scope, I sold it for $300, still feel I should've kept it for kids and myself for my backyard. 12" Dob that I have now is better but much bigger to move around :)

cheers

[bmitchell82]

Dobs are great things!

[Robert9]

I'm certainly homing in on something. Thanks for the leads. Which is the better scope an 8"BinTel or 8" Skywatcher?
BinTel have an advantage in being located not far from me in Melbourne, but if a better scope comes from further afield (no pun intended) and the price is still reasonable, then .....
PS. Thanks for all your help. I realized later that I should really be in the Newbie section.

[bobson]

Which one is better: Bintel or Skywatcher?

Well, for starters the price;

Bintel is selling for: $649.00
Skywatcher for: $465.00

Bintel comes with Crayford focuser featuring extra smooth 10:1 control
Skywatcher comes with normal focuser

Bintel comes with 8x50 90° Correct Image Finderscope
Skywatcher with 6x30 finderscope

Bintel comes with 26mm (2") Fully Multi Coated Eyepiece, 15mm and 9mm Fully Multi Coated Plossl Eyepieces, Moon filter

Skywather comes with only two plossl 10mm and 20mm

Bintel comes with cooling fan
Skaywatcher without cooling fan

Bintel is made in Taiwan GSO
Skywather is made in China

And so on, for the price difference of $184 dollars you will get some extra things if you go with Bintel.

Personally I think that Skywatcher has better mount and finish but does it have better mirror its hard to say. They are all mass produced.

You are in Melbourne so there is no postage and handling cost if you go with Bintel.

Anyway you go it will be OK, I am glad you are thinking to buy 8" instead of buying 6", you will see latter that it was right decision.

cheers

[bmitchell82]

I think it all comes down to preferance, and what you want to pay, I brought the 10" dob for $630. But have plans for it in the future to go up onto a eq6 or what ever it is when i get there thats capable of 20kgs+ and turn it into mainly a astrophotography setup.

My advice to you is think further than today, and try and see where you want to head towards, then buy accordingly. As the saying goes, Well placed dollars today turn into millions tomorrow.!:thumbsup:

[JethroB76]

Agree with Bobson also on the 8" over the 6" if your budget allows

York Optical, who have a Melbourne store, also carry an 8" Skywatcher @$449
http://www.yorkoptical.com.au/ProductMenus/Telescopes/tabid/42/CategoryID/5/List/1/Level/a/ProductID/71/Default.aspx?SortField=UnitCost%2cP roductName

It looks like the Skywatchers are still using rack and pinion focusers, though IIRC they are meant to be reasonable quality R&P's

[Robert9]

Thanks again for your comments. I had a look at Bintel scopes today and noted the difference in focussing control over Saxon which was also on offer. How much of a limitation is rack and pinion drive vs direct friction (Crayford)? Is the free-play significant? s there a difference between saxon and Skywatcher?
All up I'm leaning towards the Bintel, but the price is really beyond my budget. It started at about $250 (DSE), I doubled it to $500, now I'm looking at $650! Oh frustration!

[monoxide]

not sure how they compare now but i prefered the skywatcher dob base compared to the GSO base, the 'tension handle' works well and the laminate is a better quality which means its a bit smoother to use but the skywatcher R&P focuser is horrible and would make trying to collimate with any real precision a waste of effort in most cases.
you can fix the slop in the skywatcher focuser by tightening 2 allen screws but this makes it a bit stiffer to turn.

(im comparing my old 12" GSO with my older 6" skywatcher dob and i know that GSO has changed the design of their altitude bearings now)

both makes are very usable out of the box without any modifications.
i'd just go for the one thats offering the most extras..

[Robert9]

From Andrews I see that a new DOB8 is due out in January.

I'd be very interested in any thoughts on truss designs and anything else relevant here.

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/images/products/telescopes/dobsonian/skywatcher_flex8.jpg
DOB 8" 200mm x 1200mm

$599.00 AUD
This model is due in January, 2009
New truss tube design requires no assembly or disassembly each time it's used!
New extra-smooth azimuth bearings and patented tension adjustment control for the altitude bearings.
New Collapsible Dobs. feature smooth Crayford style focusers and 8 x 50 finderscopes.

[JethroB76]

Its a pity you aren't in Adelaide; there is a 8" Skywatcher Dob in the classifieds for $400, pick up only..

I don't really understand why they'd make an 8" truss:shrug: They're already a small scope. I think at 8" I'd save my money and get a solid tube.

The main problem I could see with that design (assuming the trusses/struts are rigid) is stopping a shroud from drooping into the light path..

[Robert9]

Yes, Adelaide is just a bit far to trot over to collect a telescope. The cost of petrol to travel the 1000Km return trip would only be about $150. Hmm! 150 + 400 = $550. Might as well stay and buy a new one.
Thanks for your comments on the open truss. I'm learning a lot here. Great forum.

[bmitchell82]

At worse with the skywatchers focuser is not too bad on my 10" the only weird thing is the 2" addaptor, you need a adaptor to fit the 2" ep in... odd, the overall build quality is great, i have found.

I have a old Dicksmith special that i was given a year or so ago and my plans are to install the SW focuser into it so all is not lost with the SW focuser Then upgrade the SW OT to something that will support imaging later on so either a Moonlite or something of the sort and preferably a low profile so i don't have to start slicing and dicing the OT. but its yet to be seen if i still have to .

Remember though even the bintel option normally gives a few ep's to start off with you will generally go and buy yourself some good quality ones soon after.

[Robert9]

Ok Brendan, thanks. Interested that you have a DSE scope. I have been warned away from them by virtually everyone. I have been offered a Saxon 8"Dob for $515 which is very tempting. It has Crayford focussing and comes with 2 Plossl eyepieces. The Bintel seems to have an advantage in the mount which is reportedly more stable and easier to control, but I haven't heard anything really negative about other scopes. There are also additional bits included, but the price is also higher. I guess I could always buy additional bits a later date when my piggy-bank has recovered somewhat.

[bmitchell82]

hahaha, im not a silly man :D DSE scopes are the pits! Ill let you in on a secret.!!! I was given it from my mate that obviously didn't understand what was going on. It was so poor on collmination it wasn't funny, but the problem was that he tried to clean the mirror with spray and wipe.! there wen a 1/4 of the already shotty mirror.

So i suffered this for a good 7 months, still looked at Omega cent, jewel box and the like, though views where less than "acceptable". So i will be retro fitting it all with some decent gear and a new mirror and passing the scope along to my uncle.

Saxon is virtially a Sky watcher, or should i say it the other way around, if you can get a Saxon with a Crayford focuser do it. because the Skywatcher only has a R&P. all right but not great. though to get a Crayford style focuser only set you back 130ish

[Robert9]

I guessed you weren't a silly man! http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/winking70.gif An 8" Skywatcher lists at the same price as an 8" Saxon, so I think it a good deal. Added to that, I think the extras are better witht eh Saxon. On the point of maintenance, how do you clean the optics?
Seems like I'm honing in on a scope doesnt it?http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif

[rmcpb]

Robert,

An 8" dob will be a beauty. If you can come up with the crayford focuser its worth a few dollars extra. As for cleaning the optics have a look at Mike's article (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-345-0-0-1-0.html) on the subject.

Cheers

[bmitchell82]

you beat me to the punch line!

Just remember when cleaning your optics they have to be reasonably dirty before you need to worry about it. Some will say that it can be really covered badly and still be useable, others say to get rid of it all! :D Im somewhere inbetween

[Robert9]

Hi Brendan and Rob. Many thanks for all your help over the past few days. Tell me, Brendan, when do you sleep? I've found your posts everywhere! Certainly an interesting 5 pager on helping a guy who started off with junk. Glad I didn't follow his path, just hope he gets his money back.
The Crayford focussing is going to cost me an extra $100 - the difference between an 8" Skywatcher and Saxon, but I have the feeling it will be money well spent. The Skywatcher is available with a 15% discount from York Optical, which brought down below $400. The Saxon will be $515. Now to convince the "Other Half" :eyepop:- bless her! I'm not expecting too much flak.:help:
Final question (for now) - collimation???:rofl:AHh haa - don't bother, I've just found an excellent article posted on the site.

[bmitchell82]

hahaha :D

Well where i work im basically on all day, though sometimes i jump online to do things and well i have to "check the mail".

Collmination :) its a lovely beast. The trick is to actually understand the light path and what is happening when you make adjustments. if you try to learn the way of just getting the circles concentric unless your one smart mofo itll take you a bit to get the hang of.

the sky watcher and saxon like i said are both the same. though look at it this way is the saxon craford style focuser a 10:1 or just a craford. if it is just a craford, go with the skywatcher and whack a bintel 10:1 on it for 130 from bintel (they are a GSO manufactured item just rebranded). The 10:1 will give you really fine focus, its only after you have played with telescopes for a while that you will appriciate that fine adjustment.!

[Robert9]

You've got to me just in time, I think. As best as I can gather, the Crayford doesn't have the reduction drive. The one I'm considering is from Astronomy Alive http://astronomyalive.com.au/Saxon%20Dob%208.html . I can get the Skywatcher for considerably less from York. They (York) don't say what brand of eye-pieces they use, but I give them a call and find out a few more detaisl on what they have on offer. The differnece between the prices for the 2 scopes is $137 and if everything else between them is equal, then paying the $130 for the 10:1 reduction drive focussing is very worth while.
I have been trying to figure out how I can transport the scope when we go off with our 12' caravan. The packing box seems excessively large for its contents. What would you say are the minimum dimensions I could construct a travel box?
My wife has agreed :D:D to the scope, but we have to fit it in the Subi wagon with a bit of other gear, the van is too small.

[norm]

Hi Robert,

For an intro into collimation check out:

http://www.andysshotglass.com/Collimating.html

Good luck with the purchase!!!

Cheers, Norm:)

[Robert9]

I went out today with the intention of having a good look at the Saxon Dob8 and probably buying same. However, on inspection and anlaysis of handling and size, it really was to large and awkward to consider taking away on holidays. Our caravan and car could just not accommodate the bulk, and it would have been a real inconvenience - Damn it! Had more discussions with Astronomy Alive and he suggested a Saxon 90mm x 900mm Sazxon refractor on an EQ2 mount. Included are 2 x 1.25" super Plossel eyepieces (25x and 10x), prism and upgraded finder scope.
Be interested in any comments please. (Only $10 more than the Dob).:shrug:

[JethroB76]

A 90mm scope will be disappointing on anything other than the moon IMO, will be reasonably portable though.
Are you purchasing soley with the holiday trip in mind or for future use?

[garyp]

Hi Robert,

One thing I learnt pretty early on it there is no perfect scope. The big ones are great but not very transportable and the smaller ones are more portable but not so great with the views etc..... It's hard to make the decision at times. :confuse2:

As jethro said you need to get a scope with the thought of where you will use it most in mind.

If it's mostly in the back yard the dob is the best bet and maybe you could get a smaller one sometime in the future for your travels, or vice versa.

just a thought:)

I know there is a budget to keep to etc..

By the way I have an 8" skywatcher dob and I'm loving it.

Cheers

Gary:)

[Robert9]

Thanks Jethro and Gary for your inputs to help with my dilemma.
I must admit I was highly disappointed when I realised that lugging the Dob while on holidays would be too much of a chore. When you're out bush under clear velvet black skies and the stars are so bright the allure of star-gazing is enormous. We are going to Harrieteville (our alpine region nestled at the foot of Mt. Hotham) in a couple of weeks. The skies there are incredible. We will be located in a valley far away and totally shielded from city lights. So I guess, in the first instance, it is a scope for travelling that I want. I was told by the guy at "Astronomy Alive" (and I believe he does know his stuff) that the refractor he offered should be good for planets, and constellation, but would have difficulty resolving things like galaxies. For deep-space the Dob would far out-perform. I have the feeling that I may eventually end up with both scopes. The Dob for home and the refractor for out bush/travels. I only wonder at the efficiency of the Dob in a suburban environment. Any commnets please?

[garyp]

Hi robert. I am only a beginner into astronomy and don't have experience with other scopes. I can only speak on the experience of using my dob. To your question about a dob in the back yard I can say that I have been pleased with the views I've experienced. Some nights are better and clearer than others so don't be put off if your first few nights aren't what you expect. I found through practice I could find what I was looking for and work out the best ways to handle the dob.

From what I've read about on sites like this that in a back yard situation bigger aperture is usually better.

Having said that dark skys are the best option with any scope so it's a matter of making the best of a less than ideal situation

hope it helps

cheers
Gary:)

[Robert9]

Hi Gary,
Thanks yet again for your comments. I have had a look outside at the skies the past few nights and have been extremely disappointed at the poor visibility, even after 11pm, and in spite of the moon's absence. I have made a decision (finally!) to get an SCT. Decided I particularly wanted the portability which unfortunately an 8" Dob doesn't have when sharing space in a small caravan and all the other junk that goes camping with us. Since to have the scope "out bush" is what I really want, I've upped my budget and am going to get a Celstron Nexstar 6SE. My wife has agreed! Sure, at f10 the aperture's not as good but all things considered, I think its a reasonable compromise.
Appropos of Dobs though, having looked at a few now, I think the Bintel is by far the best equipped and best value for money, inspite of being more expensive. (26mm (2") Fully Multi Coated Eyepiece, 15mm and 9mm Fully Multi Coated Plossl Eyepieces, smooth 2" Crayford focuser featuring extra smooth 10:1 fine control, Moon filter, 8x50 90° Correct Image Finderscope, Base carry handle, eyepiece rack for 2" and 1.25" eyepieces ). Maybe in another year - or two!
Robert

[garyp]

Hi Robert. Looks like the hardest part is done (deciding on a scope to buy)

Now all that's left is to use and enjoy.

All the best with your new scope:thumbsup:

Cheers

Gary:)

[bmitchell82]

Good luck rob, and remember to have fun.

If you need any help, just tap into the knowledge well we have all done hard yards and will share these experiences with anybody who wants to know.

[Robert9]

Thanks Brendan, thanks Gary, and thanks to all the others who have helped me with this. Your information has been invaluable. It has beena big and steep learning curve for me. I've purchased the scope (got a good price at York - Melboure) and will collect it next Monday - I'm not going to town 2 days before Xmas!
Looking forward to much great skywatching and further chat with you all.
Have a good Xmas and great 2009. I've got to wait until next Monday for my Xmas present.
Perhaps a Dob in a couple of years time. Ssshhhh!

[Robert9]

Got my NexStar 6SE today. :jump: All set up, ready to fly. :prey:

Cloudy sky! I'm ready to cry:mad2:

[bmitchell82]

Its always the way :D itll come around :D youll see some good stuff. :D

[Robert9]

Back from Harrietville! First few nights didn't appear much better than at home, due to a very bright moon. A week alter, wow! Have enjoyed not only Orion nebula in far greater clarity, but also was able to peep at a few Messiers nearby, M41 I think it was, clearly showed the gas clouds. (I should have made notes - guess I'll get organised eventually) Also was able to dive into the Jewel Box - fantastic! and Pliedes. Looked for a few galaxies too but not sure whether I have enough mags to really discern these. Just thought I saw diffuse spots. Have to look for another eyepiece and Barlow.
Anyway, very happy with scope and its portability. Doesn't take more than 10 minutes to have it set up ready to go. The dew-heater I made worked well against the rather cool nights and I also used a sheet of cardboard held around the front end with a rubber band as a shield. Had no problems at all in that regard.
Don't much like the finder scope. Annoyingly it doesn't reposition on re-installation and needs to re-aligned each time. Also at times, tend to see 2 red spots and 2 images of the star I'm focussing on. There must be a better way.
I did have difficulty finding the right angle to view through the ep of the scope, particularly at high azimuth positions. Guess I'll learn the technique in time. My glasses sure are a bother and without them my astigmatism is a @#$%^&*( ! Eps with a good eye relief are going to be a must.
Anyway, time to go outside.:thumbsup:
Robert

[garyp]

Hi robert,

Glad you are enjoying your new scope:thumbsup:

I had a good night last night (the 22nd) and observed much the same as you did such as the jewelbox and orion etc... Was the first good night in a while so it is always enjoyable.

Sorry I can't help with your finder scope problems. Maybe someone else has a good solution for you:)

Hope you had a good Christmas and new year. I know you have a good Christmas present to enjoy:thumbsup:

Cheers

Gary:)