Latest economic fix

[xelasnave]

I dont know where but it was told me by the radio.

Some wonderful economist has put forward the idea throwing money out of a chopper to stimulate spending....to get the econonmy going stratagy.

Up until now I some how felt confident we are basically in good hands....we are in good hands and I am sure everything will be OK but that hinted at desparation and that they are really devoid of ideas.

In fact us ordinary folk will be presented with opportunity after opportunity we just need to remember how good we really have it because if it gets real bad they will cover us in money.

alex

[matt]

Just think good thoughts, mate:P;)

[Ian Robinson]

I think national governments and central banks are and have been in - for at least 2 months in PANIC MODE.

My parents and grandparents taught me , and I learnt similar in uni too , that you do not keep throwing good money at loosing propositions - you walk away and cut your losses . Central Banks and Treasuries the world over are printing money as fast as they can and throwing it at failed companies and industries and not addressing the problem that caused the mess in the first place and , in my view will only make things worse , and deepen the financial catastrophy .

These companies being bailed out should not be , and the golden paracutes taken off the executive who lead the companies into their messes taken away too , and if the industries are so crucial they should compulsorily nationalised.

Too many economists and politicants are hung up on the globalisation thing as the fix to the worlds' problems - which it isn't , and to capitalism and free market consumerism being a good thing.

Russian Communism failed - so has American Style Capitalism and it's about time those in power realised this and took real steps.

[xelasnave]

Money from heaven are pretty good thoughts I think he mustta read it someplace and just cahnged a bit...manner from heaven maybe he got the idea from the good book.
alex

[Zuts]

Tell me where and I will bring my spoon, i mean money box :)

[AstralTraveller]

Excuse me while I run out and spread some very large tarpaulins all over the place. :cool:

Just as well we have plastic money these days. The rain here would ruin the old paper stuff (and it's rained most days for several weeks here :().

[xelasnave]

I had to laugh this morning..Rio T has jumped because they have announced 14,000 folk will lose their jobs... so the stupid see this as meaning profit will be greater because overhead will be lower... bit of a long bow bow draw there... businesses cut jobs to maximise profit and I am sure Rio would have had a trim ship before so a cut now means nothing more than they expect less business, less business means less turnover which for the most part means less profit.... Assuming that with high turnover they were using all economies of scale one should expect from a big player at lower turnovers one must always face smaller economies of scale.... so it ammusses me how the market can grab at news of job cut backs as good... if one has a business and one has to cut jobs it means things are getting worse not better which should see less confidence about the future....
Still what would I know I still can not understand how borrowings can move from one side of the books to the other and turn from debt to income... business and basic money making rules sure have changed over the years...

alex

[Zuts]

Rio has 50,000 million AUD in debt after buying ALCAN at an inflated price. It is doing this to drop its debt by around 25% otherwise it would probably go under.

[xelasnave]

Thats all I need to know I had better buy some...
alex

[Glenhuon]

Throwing a few economists out of the chopper ( somewhere over the Bass Strait for example ) would be a much better idea.

;)
Bill

[Ian Robinson]

The old paper money used to dry out OK .... all you had to do was put them in sunny spot for a while.

[Ian Robinson]

So much for scoring my perfect job somewhere with Rio Tinto here in Australia , BHPB is also reorganising , have a few job apps with them too and I've recieved emails saying those jobs are now -
on hold pending restructures
or
will not be filled now result of a departmental restructure.

I've been tracking engineering and engineering mgmt openings here in Oz , they've fallen by 50% since July (but are still higher than 24 months ago - don't know how long that will last , and the types of openings have changed).

So RT and BHPB are "restructuring" , Onesteel (recently bought/merged with Smorgans) are offloading people (have or will soon close Newcastle Bar Mill (goodbye to another 600 jobs here in Newcastle) , and Wespac and Macquarie are ditching hundreds or is it thousands , the car makers get a big handout from Canberra and are still sacking thousands anyway), how is this something good ?

Aways the workers who get the pooey end of the stick , when will we learn that when the rot sets in (bad decision making) , that the clean out should be bigger at the top of the food-chain (clean out the dead wood) and bring the middle level and engineering types who are still close to the workface and still have their skills into the void produced. The higher up they are , the less competent they seem to be , and they seem to never stick around on the top jobs long enough for their stuffups to catch up with them and to be held responsible.

Earlier this week HND had a "Special After Hours "Sale"" on Tuesday after 6pm , coinciding with the Fed Gov's Pensioner Payouts , betting that was a flop , since most money wont have gone into accounts even yet as Centrelink would be waiting to the paydays for each person's pension , and will be spread out over a period of 2 week , out to the 18th Dec (I believe) , they should have had the sale on the 19th when all the pensioners will have been more financial , and might have had some change after paying bills , downsizing credit card debts, bought some treats for setting asside for Xmas and NYE , and maybe fixed some important things in their houses or cars. Stupid on the part of HND and a sign of desperation.

And one the matter of helping welfare recipriants , how are people on Newstart, Austudy, Abstudy, Youth Allowance any the less needy of help than pensioners at this time ?.... they've all missed out once again from what I understand. How is that fair ?

[Ian Robinson]

No , too expensive , they should be lined up , along with speculators (uhum ...investment bankers) , and a lot of concervative politicans and shot , one billet in the head each is about all they are worth. Especially american ones.

[AstralTraveller]

Sun?? Oh yes I remember that.

BTW Two months ago my mother said 'You know, I think we're going to have one of those summers where it just rains all the time'. There is a while to go yet but so far the old girl's been spot on.

[xelasnave]

Ian when I get my hands on Rio and BHP will you run them for me.

Think good thoughts when thinking about blood suckers.

alex

[Ian Robinson]

Done .... tell me when I start and how much I get to do it.

Let's do the same to Telstra's top echelons too while we're at it.

[GrahamL]

Bass Strait is way to close to land bill a few would probably make land with a vision.. best dump the lot down in the Southern ocean:thumbsup:

[Glenhuon]

:rofl::rofl:

[acropolite]

Growth is the problem to the answer, while ever our dinosaur governments think we can have continuous (=infinite) growth the boom bust cycles will continue and our environment both physical and financial will suffer.

[Paul Hatchman]

This is a popular criticism, but I think it misses the mark.

Consider the case of negative growth, which leads to deflation.

In a deflation environment, it makes no sense to spend your money today because it will be worth more tomorrow as assets deflate and you can afford to buy more of them.

Owning you home would be pointless, because it would be worth less and less each day.

Banks would not lend to you because they would get no return on investment due to low interest rates. Any assets you purchase will be worth less tomorrow, and they can't get their money back if you default.

There is no point making any risky investments, because you become richer simply by doing nothing.

In this environment, there is no investment, no innovation or incentives, because doing nothing with your money is the smart option.

Our whole economic system is built around growth and without it, society will collapse. Recessions and depressions are not fun times for this very reason.

So unless you can come up with another system to encourage investment without growth, I'm afraid growth is the only answer to the question.

Cheers.

[Zuts]

While we have vast inequalities within and beween countries and while populations are growing then I dont know of any other solution except to aim for more growth.

Cheers
Paul

[Ian Robinson]

No , actually economies based on making crap that is immediately obsolete as soon as you buy it and not made to last (but to lowest possible cost) and consumerism (USA and also Australian style) is the problem .... and idiot economists , bankers and politicians who can't see past the ends of their noses and are hung up on a foolish belief that the free market will solve all the world's woes ....

Greed is also not helping.

[Ian Robinson]

A lot of them are pretty fat - so they wont drown or sink very easily in salt water - best to just shoot them , it's cheaper and more certain to get the desired effect.:lol:

[Ian Robinson]

Redistribution of wealth is the way to go , and convince people to make do with what they have - especially in affluent nations - rather than always wanting the latest and newest and most up to date of everything , and bigger houses than they really need .

If all Indians and Chinese decide they want to live like Americans and Australians do we are all collectively going to be in deep poo.

[Zuts]

No problems, and you can be the first to give back your EOS 40D, after all you dont really need it.........

[Bassnut]

How come Im always out of the Free-money-hand-out band, is it always only lazy no-hopers that get the freebies?

[Ian Robinson]

I'd like some of tjat free money too - .... never seems to come to me either ....

what I have I worked damb hard to get hold off , no one ever gave me "easy money".

Mine you - I don't resent pensioners getting a bit extra help like they are right now - I know plenty of them and they are hardly living it up , nor are the huge majority of dole reciprients (and I believe they missed out on the stimulous package - one again - someone explain why they any the less needy or deserving of help then pensioners).

I am also all for redistribution of wealth and for government owning and running crucial industries too - like power generation , hospitals , telecoms , all roads , all water corps , etc .

[Ian Robinson]

I'm hardly wealthy , not by a long shot , and probably will never be , my wife and I live very modestly.

[space oddity]

The business of chucking money around will simply cause inflation:screwy:. Sure, it will get people out and spending, but the jobs will not be real jobs, they will be short term and be on produce not made in Australia(no value added), raising our foreign debt even further . The government is too stupid to realise that long term, you can only consume what you produce and should be trying to have stimulus on the supply side of the equation, which does produce real long term jobs. Perhaps chairman Rudd's plan is to sell Australia to China to pay for all the cheap garbage we buy from them:scared:.

[Lee]

Communist forces are underfoot in IceInSpace.... :)

[GrahamL]

This guys been doing his bit towards wealth redistribution:thumbsup:
http://www.madoff.com/dis/display.asp?id=203&mode=1&home=1#owner
made a decent fist of it to
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article5337735.ece

[Babalyon 5]

So, I don't get it?? The second article indicates that in some way, this person is responsible for the financial mess the world is in right now, is that right?:shrug:

[Ian Robinson]

Umm .... card carrying socialist .....:rofl:and it's a good thing this aint the USA , over there calling someone a commie is a mortal insult , communism was actually a good idea , too bad it was corrupted in it's application by power hungry dictators.:whistle:

[Ian Robinson]

Bernard Madoff’s probably the worse crook in history, and he probably contributed the USA financial stuffup. ($50,000,000,000 !!! gotta laugh at the ultra rich being taken in by his ponzy scheme .... my heart bleeds for them .... not.)

[xelasnave]

We need a two party political system administering a communist system... you can earn what you like, buy what you like but the accumulation of capital remains with the state.... and if the Governments keep bailing out everyone and taking ownership, rather than loans, thats what we may well end up with.
The market system works fairly well but in its raw form really puts education, health and social help in the charity box.

It breeds class hatred a condition that most folk do not know even exists.

We are all greedy and think that we dont want to work to save another but we can fail to see the massive abuse of the market system... extremely wasteful and generally inequitable...

A full communist system has problems and experience tells us it is in under supply rather than over supply however that condition may have been prompted due to other reasons (culture the condition of the country to start with)..

Anyways I have not seen any choppers throwing money out yet and in an effort to tolerate the current system will wait to see if that approach works....

alex

[Ian Robinson]

The chopper bypassed my place too.... bummer ....

Let me get it straight - the bailouts make it so the federal governments take all the risk , and the failed businesses and industries keep all the profits ..... why are they pussy footing about ? just nationalise these companies and industries if they are so crucial to the national economies and have them owned 100% by the people (government) and throw the boards who lead these companies and industries into gaol (definitely don't let them stay on or walk away with their monster golden paracutes - HOLD THE *******S RESPONSIBLE and MAKE THEM PAY BIG TIME)_.

[toyos]

Do you have a big photo of Mao Tse-Dong put up high in your living room? :rofl: Just because you can't afford it, it doesn't mean that others shouldn't enjoy the finer things in life.



If?? They already do, since ages ago, and they're going fast.......
China is becoming many nations' largest export markets including Australia (2nd to Japan at the moment). Have you been anywhere else other than Gateshead and Newcastle? :D

[xelasnave]

Well we had a few smart folk who having done economics at uni came out needing to show they knew more than those who went before them...and so as their influence grew it became popular to "lease" rather than buy...the maths proved this of course..so what does the Government now own...little in the nations capital it seems because it was all sold and leased back...
I think there is even a move to have prisons privately owned .... that may be very sound economically but it seems that it benefits those who need more places to leave their capital.

How can you control folk with buckets of cash when in truth "every man has his price"...everything can be bought you see and there is ample proof of that proposition lets face it.

alex

[Ian Robinson]

no ..sorry to disappoint you Commrade Toyos , only some pictures of the family .. but since you suggested I might , I suppose you've an alter and do daily devotions to one of Maggie Thatcher or Ronald Reagon or Johnny Howard or of Bull Dust Bush on yours.:lol:




Only a small part of these countries populations are currently participating , you really need to keep up with real current affairs programs like those on Aunti and SBS rather than those on Nine and Seven .:rofl:

[Starkler]

Now theres a thought :confuse3:

Any business or institution considered to be "too big to be allowed to fail" should be owned by the state. Enough of this privatise the gains and socialise the losses crapola.

[xelasnave]

Nationalise the weak..tax the strong
alex

[Lee]

We already do - it's called income tax.

[AstralTraveller]

Do we really tax the strong?? I heard that Kerry Packer never had a taxable income of more than 100k and didn't even pay income tax on that. That's probably an overstatement but lets not pretend the filthy rich pay their fair share. They use their influence to change the laws in their favour and their fancy barristers to circumvent those they can't change. Meanwhile the average Joe on PAYG never even sees the money.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to pay my share of tax. What riles me is (1) rich bludgers, and (2) the misuse of the money I pay, generally by the same rich bludgers.

[Zuts]

imposter, you don't look at all like Alex :)

[AstralTraveller]

It was better when he hid that mug behind a decent amount of camouflage. :P:rofl:

[xelasnave]

I have made it hard for myself as now I will spend half the day purusing offers of a life in Hollywood...but what can you do...
Unfortunately there are those who dont really pay the tax that they reasonably should...and little is done to fix this problem in our economy/society...in the upper levels it is considered "trick".."smart" and almost a duty to avoid tax.... avoid is ok..evade is not on...but what is the difference..evade...thats a deniel..avoid you get a smart accountant...

Years ago I with some other smarties set up what was called a "Curran scheme"...it was neat..a trip to Norfolk Island to see a mate who was doing these jobs..but it meant that by buying a company with accumulated profits and a little duck shoving we ended up with a loss equal to the accumulated profits...what do I know???? that is a maths thing....anyways we had $2,000,000-00 at the end of the day loss...and so could off set that loss against our profits over the next seven years....

Good so far... but the Governemnt legislated retreospectively to kill the scheme and all others because the mate was doing $200,000,000-00 set ups every second day... now why can they not apply the same vigour these days to the folk who do worse?????
At least out scheme kept the money near Australia but you would not believe the crap that goes on these days.

alex