1st night with EQ6- not so good [Archive]

DJDD

03-12-2008, 10:33 PM

hey all,

second clear night in over a week so thought i would take out my new EQ6Pro and ED80 and have a go at observing before even starting to try to take photos.

it was a bit of a disaster...

1. balanced the ED80+guidescope+finderscope+barlow+ lens and the counterweights whilst inside. disassembled the mount and scopes, moving the tripod outside.
2. I think i had the mount aligned to the South (used a piece of wood across the two back legs and rotated 11-12 degrees to the east.
3. set up the tripod to a convenient height.
4. reassembled.
5. waited until dark.
6. turned on mount and tried to do a 1-star alignment on Rigel.

This is where it went wrong. It seemed that the telescope was pointing too low and too easterly, and fine tuning with the arrow keys was just not going to get there.

7. Thought I would reset to the Home position by Parking the telescope. well, "Home" did not seem to be near the position i started in, and thought of as home.

8. Tried a 1-star alignment on Achenar. Again, the telescope pointed too low and a bit too easterly.

anyway, that's where i ended for the night.

So, questions:

A. is it possible to reset the Home position?

B. is there someone in Melbourne with an EQ6Pro (and maybe with a refractor, although not absolutely necessary) that may be able to assist me/give me some tips on getting the mount set up?
Is there a club night soon or perhaps I could visit someone/somewhere to view someone's setup? This may be a bit of a big ask... anyway, I live in Highett.

In the end it may be that I just need to balance everything better and get the mount aligned to the South more accurately. :shrug:

thanks for taking the time to read this post...

any help is appreciated...:)

DJDD

xelasnave

03-12-2008, 10:43 PM

Hide the axe.
Frustrating eh.. dont let that stop you still have a look around and see if you can find stuff without goto.
Sorry I cant help otherwise,
I dont use goto... I know where stuff is so I dont bother with it...I got the mount for just tracking..and on that note did you know you have to make it track??? go into setup and scoll until you get to tracking press enter and then press again and it starts to work.
Before I worked that out I was very unhappy with the mount first time out, could not figure why all the trails...

alex...

monoxide

03-12-2008, 10:53 PM

try sending the mount to its home position using the hand controller then undo the clutches and move it to where it should be and try aligning again

Terry B

03-12-2008, 10:55 PM

One way to hone the home :D position is to attempt a 1 star alignment. Don't use the keys but release the clutches to centre the star. Then tell the mount to park. This will take it back to what it thinks is the home position. Turn it off and start again for a 3 star alignment. It should be much closer with the first star.
Make sure that you have the correct time, time zone and date registered with the hand controller. I found that it didn't always pick up the correct time zone even when it had been entered.
Good luck.

Kal

03-12-2008, 10:56 PM

Did you try to do a quick drift align? If not then now is a good time to start practicing :) After a couple of goes you can get the whole process down to about 10-15 minutes (unless you want super accuracy). A quick drift align will ensure that you have the correct declination setting and your azimuth is pointing straight to the celestial pole.

Terry B

03-12-2008, 10:59 PM

The problem with this is that the mount needs at least a 1 star alignment before it will track to do a drift align.

Zuts

03-12-2008, 11:11 PM

Hi,

This is not the case. Just go into the tracking menu and select sidereal. This will turn tracking on. Then you can do a quick drift align. Whether or not the mount is aligned does not affect tracking. It will track perfectly; just around the wrong axis.

The problem with not doing a quick drift align is that you can be many degrees out if you only use a rough compass heading and rely on the dec markings. A few degrees is a fair patch of sky.

I have an EQ6 and drift align for taking photos so it takes me about 40 minutes. If i just wanted to set up for visual 10 minutes or less would be enough. The EQ6 has a polar scope built in but unfortunately in Sydney i can't use it as there is too much light pollution.

Cheers
Paul

Screwdriverone

03-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Hi DJDD,

Just a thought, do you have the Altitude set to the right angle/latitude for Melbourne? You didnt mention it and therefore it may have been missed in your setup?

Sorry if its a silly question, but you never know...

Also, doesnt the Eq6 pro have a polar scope? have a look through and see if its lined up visually in the starting position before you even start any goto/alignment tests with the hand controller.

After reading your method a couple of times it seems that you are expecting the mount to "find" Rigel or Achernar? I thought you had to point the mount towards Rigel, centre it in the MIDDLE of the eyepiece and then TELL the mount what star it is? Again, this might be a stupid question as I dont have a goto mount, but, if I dont ask, I dont get an answer to what i think you might be doing wrong....

Cheers

Chris

AlexN

03-12-2008, 11:21 PM

My alignment stars very rarely land spot on... It can take a bit of getting used to, the way the mount moves when you push the buttons... It will get to where you want it to go, but it can take a while to figure out how to get it there...

As far as your home position not going back to where it started. Make sure you lock the clutch levers down securely. that would be the first thing I would look at. This would also affect the accuracy of its alignment slews. Also, make sure its balanced right, if not (mind you with such a small load on it, it would have to be grossly unbalanced) but this could cause the gears to slip. especially if the clutches were not locked properly.

Spend some time getting used to how the controls move the mount, and you'll get it aligned...

Polar alignment... This will also affect the accuracy of its slews.. There are plenty of guides on the net about drift alignment, PM me your email address and I'll send you the easiest one around..
Its not difficult once you get the hang of it, and if you intend to get into astrophotography, its a skill you will need to learn whether you're guiding or not..

Let me know if you need any more assistance.
Alex.

Glenhuon

04-12-2008, 08:40 AM

I had similar problems with the EQ5 goto at the begining. Found that parking the scope and reseting the RA/Dec positions by releasing the axis locks resulted in it "remembering" the correct park postion from then on. The Synscan usually asks if you want to start from the park postion when initialising. If its set up properly there answer yes and it will return to it at shut down.
Very seldom get the alignment stars in the middle of the field, usually have to fiddle with the buttons to get it lined up with the crosshairs in the eyepiece. Releasing the clutches during alignment defeats the purpose of the exercise, adjustments have to be made with the buttons so the mount can get itself orientated. I've found a 2 star alignment works best for me.

The "Quick and Dirty" drift alignment guide mentioned by Alex is definitely the easiest one I've found to follow. I thought the EQ5 was reasonably accurately set up using a compass and protractor, but was still a fair ways out when drift aligned.

Cheers
Bill

richard omeara

04-12-2008, 09:26 AM

I always do a 3 star aligment.Its not perfect but it gets you in the ball park.

DJDD

04-12-2008, 09:50 AM

Hi all,

thanks for the replies.
I am sure I have said this before but this is the best forum out there.:thumbsup:

i guess I had thought i would be much closer to the alignment star than i was.

e.g. this is a rough approximation of the positions when trying to align on Achenar

' ______________________________ x Achenar
'
'
'
'
' ________________________x mount thought Achenar was located
'
' ____ x Rigel
'

One question: A few of you have mentioned the 'clutches'.

:shrug:
Do you mean the R.A. and Dec lock levers? I assumed they should be released (i.e. loose) at all times during alignment, for slewing to objects and tracking. I thought they were simply bolts against the shafts and not undoing them would cause damage.

If not, where are the 'clutches' you mention. There is nothing else that I cans ee on the mount like that.

alex:
i did feel like finding a blunt object...
thanks for the tip on setting tracking going once i have the unit aligned.

TerryB: time/date/timezone. I thhink i set them correctly.
Time and Date = time and date on my watch (which was the correct time for Melbourne)
Daylight savings = YES
maybe I should check my Lat/Long on the controller. I think i set:
Latitude: 37° 57' 27" S
Longitude: 145° 3' 8" E

Kal: not even sure i was close enought to drift align.

Paul: I was certainly a few degrees out from the alignment star! As you say a rough compass bearing will cause problems so perhaps my grief was caused by badly positioning the mount...
if i could get it in the finder i would have been happy but...

Screwdriverone: I did set my altitude to as close to 37.5 degrees as possible. On my Altitude dial 0 degrees is vertical and 90 degrees is horizontal.
regarding the polar scope- well, it does have one but it seems the counterweight shaft runs right through the middle of the view so not sure how i can use it...
of course, with southland 1 km away and roughly south of my position seeing anything to the south is almost impossible!

AlexN: thanks for the tip on the Home position. Again, the 'clutch' thing has me confused...
Thanks for the offer of a simple guide to poar alignment. I will PM you about it.

Glenhuon: your point on 'resetting' the home position will come in handy. I thought i was reasonably spot on with the alignent of the tripod since one of my fences runs East-West but perhaps not.

Richard: thanks for the reply. if i ever get 1-star alignment right i can progress to the 3-star alignment. at the moment, the mount points no where near the 1st star.

Thanks, again, everyone for taking the time to respond.:thumbsup:

This is rather embarrassing for me, really... :whistle:

cheers,
DJDD

AlexN

04-12-2008, 02:34 PM

Yep, By clutch I mean the RA and Dec Locking levers... They should be locked at all times during use. It wont cause damage if you dont, but it will definitely make the system inaccurate :)

Lock them up mate and give it another go! I bet you have more luck!

DJDD

04-12-2008, 02:46 PM

ok. will give it a go next clear night.
should the levers be done up as tight as possible?

it just seemed that the levers were designed to stop the mount from rotating. I assumed that they should be loose so that the motors would control the mechanism...

it all seems so counter-intuitive...:screwy:
or I am just a bit lame.:lol:

thanks, again.

DJDD

gmbfilter

04-12-2008, 02:59 PM

Being close or not to alignment stars may not be the problem, as long as you achieve "aliment successful"

I used to spend heaps of time pointing south... correct latitude (purchased digital angle thingie )..leveling mount etc, none of witch is necessary for the goto functions to work

Still need to drift align for photography

I now find that I can be quiet rough in my initial setup, only ever do a 2 star alignment and have fun for the rest of the night!

AlexN

04-12-2008, 02:59 PM

They appear to stop the mounts rotation when the mount is turned off, because it locks the gears together, hence you cant rotate it because the motors are engaged... They should be nipped tight, not excessively tight, but just nipped up..

They are designed to be released to offer free rotation of the mounts axis for balancing the mount, once balanced, return it to its home position manually, and then lock the levers down...

I think thats your main problem pretty well solved :)

Cheers mate, And good luck next clear night!

vash

04-12-2008, 03:03 PM

One other really important thing that you might have missed is with the date. Make sure that it is set month - day - year. I had trouble with this as well.

The locks might seem to make the mount stop moving but in reality they are locking the motor to the mount so it can drive it. Unlock them if you want to manually move the scope to an object and lock them to track (this will ruin you goto accuracy if it is already set up by the way).

DJDD

04-12-2008, 04:29 PM

hey, vash, i always have to double check the date. The mm/dd/yyyy format is screwy, isn't it. :screwy:

Alex and vash, thanks for pointing our what the locks are actually doing.
That was worrying me.

I also like Alex's comment:

:D
hopefully that will be it, indeed! :)

gmbfilter: cheers. hopefully, after the other suggestions I will be up and running.

DJDD

richard omeara

04-12-2008, 06:40 PM

Another good time saving toy is the eq6 GPS.Well worth it.

DJDD

04-12-2008, 07:32 PM

thanks, richard.
I have a GPS unit for bushwalking so at least I know my position. :)

DJDD

08-12-2008, 08:54 AM

Hi all,

thanks for everyone's help.
And, yes, once i locked down the levers my mount worked MUCH better.

now I just have to align better. I have made an alignment jig based upon Trevor Hand's project in Projects & Articles (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-499-0-0-1-0.html (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../63-499-0-0-1-0.html%29) ) and am looking forward to trying it. The alignment from the jig looks quite different to the rough alignment i performed last week.

cheers,
DJDD

rider

08-12-2008, 09:11 AM

My goto accuracy went up by a huge factor when I began centering the FIRST alignment star manually with the latitude and AZ controls.

If the mount is very well leveled then the effect is like a "perfect" polar alignment.

rider

DJDD

08-12-2008, 09:29 AM

thanks, rider.
i believe it will be clear skies in Melbourne tonight so...
(there should be a "fingers corssed" smiley)

Tandum

08-12-2008, 11:00 AM

I normally change the slew rate when doing an alignment and use the arrow keys to line it up. I find a rate of 5 is a good speed for the finderscope and 2 is good for an eyepiece. Press RATE then 5 then ENTER on the controller to change speed to 5. Then rate,2,enter to change it back to 2. It goes to 9.

Some times it doesn't stop when I release the arrow keys. Changing rate stops it and it appears to happen sometimes when pressing 2 arrow keys at the same time.

DJDD

08-12-2008, 12:01 PM

thanks, tandum, for the suggested settings.

i found the slew rate setting- i tried 9, which is pretty quick! It is a pity the slew rate is not stored between sessions.
it seems that only some settings are saved between sessions, e.g the date.

DJDD

09-12-2008, 07:58 AM

keeping it in this thread...
Sorry to seem like a complete duffer. :screwy: I like to think i am slightly smarter than an oyster! :lol:

Still having problems aligning and GOTO so would like to check a few settings with others.

1. TimeZone = +11:00 or +10:00 ?
I am in Melbourne.

2. Time = time on my mobile phone, which is set by Telstra and is correct

3. Daylight Savings = YES

4. Location = from GPS reading so should be fine

5. rough South-facing alignment = I used a jig set pretty close to 12 degrees west, which means when I set up it shifts the mount easterly.

6. Level = the mount is pretty close to level but not exactly. How much of a difference does that make?

- I have tried 1-star, 2-star and 3-star alignments.
- I can only easily see Canopus, Sirius, Rigel and Achenar early in the evening
- later in the evening I can see Acrux, Alpha Cen, and Fomalhaut i think
Damn Southland! :mad2:

7. Latitude setting = about 38 degrees from vertical. i measured with a protractor and it seemed pretty close

So, early in the evening I tried:
- 1-star alignment on Canopus, then tried Rigel. Canopus seemed pretty close (minimal slewing to find it) but Rigel was way off. Needless to say, after 1-star alignment I found nothing with GOTO...

- 2-star align on Canopus and Achenar. The mount seems to be reasonably close to Canopus but Achenar is miles out (i think it is miles out) and must slew a lot to find it.

After alignment on these two stars I can go back and forth between them ok but then when I GOTO Rigel I find I am a LONG way off. Needless to say I cannot GOTO anything interesting after that.

- For 3-star alignment, well, I am not offered all of the stars I can see, which makes it difficult. I understand that i should have three widely spaced stars to align on, at least two on one side of the meridian and one on the other...

Note that I use the arrow keys to fine-tune the alignment rather than release the catches and move manually.

Are my alignment woes simply due to too rough a polar alignment?
Should I really get the mount level? A bit hard because my pavers are not level. :lol: So, more care required? :whistle:

thanks in advance,
DJDD

gmbfilter

09-12-2008, 08:14 AM

I think Melbourne is the same time zone as Sydney, +10:00, entering yes to daylight saving time should set everything correctly

DJDD

09-12-2008, 08:16 AM

thanks.
actually, i have been using +10:00 but thought I was wrong so wrote +11:00. I will edit my post.

gmbfilter

09-12-2008, 08:24 AM

Bugger, it would have been a simple fix, I know because I've done it
Maybe the mount is at fault?
Mine went back to Bintel (Syd) & Michael replaced handset and everything worked OK

DJDD

09-12-2008, 08:34 AM

thanks. perhaps returning it is an option, although I would like to persevere for a bit longer. It is probably me!

cheers,
DJDD

Zuts

09-12-2008, 08:39 AM

Hi,

In this case his mount does work. As he said he can actually do a 2 star alignment so i doubt there is anything wrong with it.

(1) 3 star alignment is best. The stars you say it offers which are not available probably are; they are just obscure and you may not have heard of them?

(2) Plonking the mount down on wobbly uneven pavers is asking for trouble. If you cant use the polar scope to get a 'rough' visual use only polar alignment you must at least spend 10 to 15 minutes doing a drift alignment. This will take into account and overcome any uneveness and/or deviation in the initial setup from true north. If you dont do this your goto's will be way way out.

(3) Since you will only be doing a rough drift alignment when you attempt a goto leave your lowest power largest FOV eyepiece in the scope. A 26mm 68 degree would be ideal. This gives you a better chance of finding the object in the initial FOV after a slew.

I spend 30 to 40 minutes minimum doing a drift alignment on my EQ6; for astro photography. After doing a 3 star alignment my gotos leave the desired object in the FOV of an 11mm eyepiece on a 600 ml FL scope.

Cheers
Paul

DJDD

09-12-2008, 09:03 AM

Hi paul,

thanks for your reply, as well.

a few comments: i can do an alignment but Achenar and Rigel are way off the mark, and after aligning, on say Achenar and Canopus, then GOTO Rigel is not really possible.

Still that is probably related, as you say, to my poor set up.

- the pavers. they are not wobbly just uneven so it is a bit tricky to level but i should try harder.

- 3-star alignment- unfortunately there is a building right (West) beside the telescope's location. the better placed area in my backyard is above an ant hill! there are probably a few stars available in the SSW that i just need to find the names for. your comment has prompted me to look a bit harder.

- Alex gave me a good drift-alignment guide and there are a few others around as well, so...

You have given me much to look at on the next clear night.

cheers,
DJDD

33South

09-12-2008, 09:58 AM

This thread brings back memories, although I still find after doing an alignment occasionally the goto just does not work. Switch off and start again do everything the same (???http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/../vbiis/images/smilies/doh.gif) all OK.

Some mistakes I made,

1. Date entered in the wrong format must be mm/dd/yyyy
2. Mount not balanced well enough especially with the heavier C11
3. After the slew to each alignment star did not wait for the BEEP BEEP before using the keys to center the star.
4. Centering the star by eye was off center, got a 12mm with cross hairs for fine adjustments.

1 and 2 would give trouble getting anywhere near the alignment stars
3 and 4 would give an apparent successful alignment but any goto away from the alignment stars would be way off.

DJDD

09-12-2008, 10:03 AM

thanks, 33South, for the reply.

i will check all you suggest. I was thinking about getting an eyepiece with crosshairs. I also found a CN thread that suggests defocussing the star to the edge of the view, which seems to make sense, as well.

Everyone's responses are pointing to my need to work harder on the alignment.

rider

09-12-2008, 03:06 PM

yep, you do need crosshairs... badly. Centering accurately will improve things a lot.
You also DO need to level the mount accurately, - (alternatively, tip the sky over to match your scopes angle.. ;) )

and

after successfully finishing an alignment, when you "goto" an object,
you should use a very low mag lens initially, to see a large FOV in-case the object is not fully centered.

clear skies...

DJDD

09-12-2008, 03:22 PM

:lol:

thanks, rider.
i am looking at a vendor's site now for an eyepiece with crosshairs or perhaps an illuminated reticle eyepiece.

and i need to find another eyepiece, then, with a large FOV. I thought the
B___L FMC 26mm (2") or 30mm eyepiece wuld be an option.

cheers,
DJDD

AlexN

09-12-2008, 04:48 PM

a 30mm is a great EP to have.. I use a 40 as my wide field in EP, and have a 12mm illuminated reticule... The illuminated reticule will have a dual duty, doing an accurate go-to alignments, and drift aligning the mount. :)

Get yourself a "Bulls Eye leveler" from Bunnings, mine cost $3.20, and is a GODSEND for leveling the mount. (DO NOT TRUST THE EQ6 BUILT IN BUBBLE LEVEL)

With all the great info in this thread you should be well on your way! :)
Cheers,
Alex.

Kal

09-12-2008, 04:50 PM

When you say "38 degrees from vertical" do you mean this literally? Technically, for someone from Melbourne, you will need to be (90-38), or 52 degrees from vertical.

Imagine it this way, if you are at the equator (0 degrees north or south) then the pole is exactlly 90 degrees away from vertical - basically pointing flat to the horizon. For every degree away from the equator you move, this changes by 1 degree.

You should be 38 degrees from horizontal.

DJDD

09-12-2008, 06:06 PM

Thanks, Alex.
At the end of all of this, i.e. when i get to use GOTO successfully, observe, and then even do some photography, I will write up the Idiot's Guide (with many acknowledgements) ...:)

thanks, Kal (Andrew)
i was working off the numbers (0-90), as well as a polar alignment guide in the Projects & Articles section showing the movement from the vertical. Of course, i have found another guide (from myastroshop) that has the 0 degrees on the horizontal and so the GEM is in fact set to 52 degrees from vertical, as you suggest.

I have to get my head around the geometry...:screwy:

DJDD

Stephen65

09-12-2008, 06:44 PM

DJDD

You don't need to be precise about the time, date etc provided the scope is properly aligned to the south celestrial pole.

Do a three star alignment and even if the first star is way off use the arrow keys to centre it. Then move to the second star, this is where you see if it's properly aligned because even if the mount was way off the first star it should now move accurately to the second because the movement from the first to the second is just a relative movement. Once you've shown the scope where the first star is it should be able to move to the second reasonably accurately.

I'm in Melbourne and I have an EQ6PRO plus refractor, if you're still having problems drop me a private message and I'm happy to arrange a meet either there or here.

DJDD

09-12-2008, 06:58 PM

thanks, Stephen.
everyone has said that 1-star alignment is ok for visual stuff so, yes, once that is aligned then I should expect to get the second star in a 2-star alignment pretty close.

thanks for the offer for assistance if I i need it. hopefully that will not come to pass with all of the great assistance rendered by members!

regards,
DJDD

Stephen65

09-12-2008, 07:03 PM

I always do a three star alignment for all uses. A one star alignment is much more dependant on the accuracy of your polar alignment because you're only giving the scope one reference point and the scope won't know if a pointing error is due to inaccurate polar alignment or due to incorrect data.

If you do a three star alignment the scope gets three reference points and it can operate much more accurately. It only takes a few minutes longer and if you have decent polar alignment you can get hours of accurate goto's.

AlexN

09-12-2008, 07:29 PM

Also, a 1 star alignment will not compensate for any cone error you may have, where as a 3 star will provided one or two of the stars is on the western side of the meridian, and one or two are on the eastern side.

Three star alignment is THE way to go...

Using EQMOD last week I set up 8 alignment stars and GOTO was FLAWLESS! Landed Canopus on the chip of the DBK31 in the C11 @ F/6.3...

DJDD

09-12-2008, 09:12 PM

maybe next clear skies night...

thanks, Steven and Alex.

well, getting one star in the west may be hard with a building on my western side (3 feet away from the telescope). I can get two on the eastern side and maybe Achenar or Fomalhaut.

or, I could just try to lay a big sheet over the ants nest where i could get stars everywhere except maybe the pole itself.
hmmm...or, perhaps pull down the clothes line that blocks my view of ...

as you can see my backyard is a bit chaotic!:eyepop:

thanks again,
DJDD

Jeff

09-12-2008, 09:16 PM

Ditto ... 3 star alignment is the way to go. Compensates for various setup errors, and allows mount to recalculate a much more accurate home position.

DJDD

09-12-2008, 09:24 PM

right, time to get out the 'Ant Rid'. :P

thanks, Jeff.

DJDD

11-12-2008, 07:51 AM

Hey all,

just updating the thread. Had a good night observing last night, even with a bright moon, Southland shopping centre nearby and the need to finish before midnight (something about a pumpkin? :lol:).

After setting my latitude position to 52 degrees from vertical, facing roughly south with the jig and levelling the mount better, I got some decent GOTO accuracy! :)

First, 2-star alignment: Canopus and Rigel. I did not drift align.
Both stars were way out initially but i eventually got them in the view finder. Once both were aligned i found Named Stars (Sirius), M42, NGC 104 (47 Tuc) and M41 without any trouble. :thumbsup:

In the SynScan setup I needed to Sort the Alignment Stars by Magnitude rather than by Auto-Sort.

The 30mm Superview (68 degrees AFOV) eyepiece worked a treat. What a difference a wide field makes... :eyepop:

next, i should try drift alignment, although i am tempted to just get some observing in rather than fiddling about.

Thanks to everyone for their assistance!

cheers,
DJDD