Protestors gone too far!

[andrewk_82]

Hi,
This doesn't have anything to do with astronomy, but I thought that the other side of the story should be told as it probably won't make it into the media.
My Brother works as a geologist for a contract exploration firm that it currently working on the Caroona Coal Project which is being carried out by BHP. There has been quite a bit of local media attention for the project with farmers protesting against the project. I've got no problem with them protesting, and as far as I'm concerned they probably do have a legitimate cause.

My problem is that they have taken this protesting way too far. Last week my Brother was working within 20m of a drilling rig when one of the protestors flew low overhead in a crop duster and dumped a whole heap of pesticides on the guys doing the drilling :scared:. He got some chemicals on himself but nothing like the drillers. As well as potentially poisoning the drillers they were only meters away from the top of the drilling rig. If they'd have hit this they would have killed themselves and potentially all of the drillers :mad2:.

What these protestors have to realise is that these people are just doing their jobs, with families at home to feed etc. The protestors have a beef with BHP and the Government, NOT the people on the ground. As a result of this as far as I'm concerned they have lost all sympathy from me for their cause. Fight your cause but do it the right why.

Sorry to rant but this made me angry and I needed to get it out there.

[xelasnave]

Andrew it is good to point out things that are not right.
The piolet involved should be reported to the Dept of Aviation or whatever dept exists to oversee and regulate piolets.
Such an action as you pointed out was dangerously stupid irrespective of the issues surrounding the matter and as such should not go unpunished.
If nothing else your brother and the others no doubt have a right of action in assault one would think... and damages would not be insignificant one would expect.
If nothing else I can not see why the piolet should retain his licience... if he sent an envelope thru the mail with such stuff in the envelope he would be up on terroism charges...so where is the consistency in scruting of dangerous actions.

alex

[jungle11]

I agree totaly, that was a stupid thing to do, especially as your brother and the others are only employees earning a crust. I dont get that.

I did concrete testing for some powerlines between Towoomba and Millmeran, and most of these towers were placed in peoples properties. We had equiptment wrecked often, and as far as i could see, a couple of towers in the back paddock had no effect on their farms whatsoever. But whatever their cause, its pointless shooting the messanger

[DJDD]

something similar happened to friends of mine in an area of victoria.
except that they were protesting against logging/burn offs and the alleged offender that flew the crop duster was a member of parliament who was pro-logging.

[AstralTraveller]

The actions of the protesters was clearly unacceptable but I don't think anyone should let the actions of a few idiots change their view of an issue.

Perhaps some people think the Sea Shepherd goes too far, but does that make it OK to hunt whales? I was horrified when I heard that anti-logging protesters were driving spikes into trees to make them unsafe to mill, but I still support the preservation of old-growth forests. The pronouncements of some climate-change activists make me wince but I still don't think we can carry on in a business-as-usual manner.

A person needs to decide their position based on the best information they have and then stick to it. Letting horror, fear, charm or charisma rule is the start of a slippery slide into populist politics. And look at the mess that has caused.

[Ian Robinson]

The pilot needs to be prosecuted and put out business.

I take it this is now a police matter , and also a matter for the organisation who do air safety.

[casstony]

How do you know it was pesticides and not water?

In any case, all protest should be non-violent in this country.

[xelasnave]

does not matter ...any action can only be an assualt wheter they use a brick or a feather the law regards such as an assualt...
alex

[xelasnave]

In fact it is the indication of an attack that constituts an asault.. so a threatning gesture is all that is needed for an assault..battery is what most think of as an assault but it is as I have put it.


alex

[andrewk_82]

I didn't ask him that, but I assume that my brother has enough intelligence to tell the difference, as they probably do not smell like water.

[casstony]

It would be very important to me. If I was sprayed with water I'd think "bloody idiot". If I was sprayed with pesticide I'd be looking for compensation for potential health consequences.

[ving]

for every action...

I pity the fools!

[acropolite]

This sort of thing will continue to happen when governments chose to divide communities by making dubious decisions and allowing the proponents and opponents to slug it out.

That's no excuse for that kind of action though.

Recently in Tasmania a group of redneck forest workers smashed up protestors cars with block busters in a violent and intimidating manner, government failed to condemn the actions saying they understood why the foresters acted in that manner and instead charging the protestors with trespass.

When governments deliberately engage in that sort of divide and conquer tactic there is no little alternative to confrontation.

[wraithe]

Cant remember where the link is but under a new act, any action to install fear of injury or death, can be regarded as a terrorist act...

Under the new laws, these actions, no matter how innocent, can be regarded as terrorism and as such the perpetrator can be prosecuted as a terrorist...

Now onto Greenpeace...
Two things, any group that claims that humans do not belong on the earth and therefore will push to have the removal of the human race as its ultimate aim, are no better than the people we shoot as terrorists...
The second issue is the financing of greenpeace, major donor Rockefeller foundation who happen to be major oil owners...

There has been a lot of research done into these groups due to some of there actions and policies...


Cut trees down, stop digging iron ore...
Trees regrow, iron ore mining leaves a big hole that doesnt regrow...

[acropolite]

If only it were that simple.

In Tasmania they cut down native forest, then burn what's left, polluting the air and killing any fauna left in the area. They then replant with monoculture (single species) which by it's very nature tends to attract pests and grazing animals.

These "environmentally sustainable" plantations encourage massive buildup of predatory insect species which have to be controlled with chemical spraying, as often as fortnightly. Grazing animals are poisoned with carrots laced with 1080.

The chemicals used, many of which are banned in europe and north america, end up in our waterways. Grazing animals are poisoned and left to die and rot, usually they die in or around watercourses further polluting our watercourses.

Modern forestry practices totally strip the land leaving soil prone to erosion and the natural understore which would normally slow and filter the water before it reaches our watercourses is no longer there.

Add to that the fact that old native forest stores much more carbon than fast growing trees that are harvested and release as much as 80% of the captured carbon on harvest and chopping down trees isn't the environmentally sustainable industry it's cracked up to be.

Growing trees use up much more water than established forests, water that plantation owners don't have to pay for, plus the forestry industry gets massive subsidies in the form of infrastructure and MIS subsidies.

If you want to know the ultimate consequence of planting monoculture crops track down the excellent ABC podcast or trabscript of the ABC Background briefing program "The Trouble with bees (http://www.abc.net.au/rn/backgroundbriefing/stories/2007/1987155.htm)" it's paints a worrying picture of the effects of chemical spraying, genetic modification and monoculture crops.

Give me iron ore any day.....

[AstralTraveller]

Further to my previous post. Another issue that occurs to me is the idea that "well if they are going to act that way I won't support them". Who are "they"? At the moment we know of one or two idiots. As yet I have seen no evidence that the broad protest movement supported this action. And there is no logistical need for them to have done so. The pilot and one or two others could have done this on their own. So lets no foul the image of all by the actions of renegades.

An action such as this must have been taken by people new to the politics of protest. Experienced activists (and many newbies) understand that scaring a few drillers is not the main game. Public opinion and the image of the pollies is the name of the game. That can involve explanation, demonstration, symbolic actions etc but not terrorist acts on workers.

If people let themselves be swayed by this sort of action then it becomes just too easy for interest groups with access to any reasonable amount of funding to influence public opinion. All you need to do is stage an "incident' and - problem solved. Please, look at the issue objectively and then evaluate the pro and cons of your fellow travellers.

BTW After 30 years of attending protests of one kind or other I finally met provocateurs at the APEC protest. It is a testament to the maturity of the protesters that no one rose to the bait and they were completely ineffectual.The protest was completely peaceful, despite the alarm and the gross waste of public money on unnecessary 'security'.

[TrevorW]

In all battles the innocent often suffer needlessly !!!

[wraithe]

That pretty much says it all...Just look at every war from history, the writers rarely give out the information about the innocent, because they are usually members of the victors who have the benefit of writing history...


Onto the note about forests, they protested to stop logging where I live, yep they totally succeeded in shutting down a whole heap of mills and putting a lot of people out of work.,..sounds like they succeeded, hey...sadly no they did not succeed at anything except to allow the conglomerates to win what they wanted in the first place, total forest control...
Now there is more timber cut down, less timber utilized fopr quality products and no greenies left...

Only companies to quit the industry where the small ones that couldnt compete with the greenies, the big corps now have there timber quota and an increase of timber cut...

The greenies complain about clear felling in this area, but if they stopped for just an hour and had a read about the way these trees grow and about the competition by another species, they may just understand why clear felling is the only solution..If you dont, then the species in question will disappear all together as another species down here not utilized by timber millers now, will take over...
I have seen selectively felled country from over 100 years ago and the species that grows in this district is gone completely from that lot...

I dont know what species grows in Tasmania and i know from where i live my early years, that you cant clear fell there, but in this country the "Karri" cant compete, its not the variety that will compete with other species like Marri(Redgum)...


Anyway, back to protestors...
A couple of people stopped a truck in a neighbouring town, while one was standing blocking the road with a lollipop sign, another padlocked himself to an axle of the trailer...
They where protesting old growth forest logging...
Funny thing was, the truck had plantation timber on it...
The interesting thing was, the truck was coming from areas that have little old growth...
Now what gets me is, if they are going to protest, why not use the same methods the rest of us have to...use the politicians, a few well written letters and a few well made phone calls, can have some amazing power and influence...And if the media isnt brought into it, then the pollies can make some good changes...

[ving]

so true trevor, so true!

[Ian Robinson]

A sample of the soil and of the clothes they were wearing presented in a plastic bag would quickly identify the substance in the spray .... that would be the first thing I'd do and I'd make sure the cops got the sample (as evidence of the crime).

[acropolite]

It happens regularly here in Tasmania, forestry is exempt from environmental law, nothing ever gets done, no-one charged.

[Louwai]

Then there's the "Professional Protesters" that travel the country putting in their 2cents worth.

A lot of the time it's these people who are responsible for the stupid & violent acts at protests.
All they are interested in is media coverage. How they get it is not an issue......

[casstony]

Sounds like you need a bunch of feral protesters. While I generally support passive protest, being sprayed with pesticide is sufficient provocation to raise the level of protest to include property damage, in order to prevent the spraying.

[AstralTraveller]

Sorry but vandalism isn't a good idea. The way I read the situation the loggers (or some part of them) may get away with criminal acts but the protesters won't. If they try something there will be cops, media and saturation vilification which will set back their cause.

Direct action always has to be subservient to the political (in the broad sense of the term) situation. In Australia at the moment violence will not succeed and you have great difficulty winning support for property damage. Non-violent protests may be acceptable, depending on the public perception of the particular issue. However lying in front of the 'dozers or stopping whaling operations is only a stop-gap measure. If the protesters don't change the legal/political situation they will eventually be beaten.

[casstony]

I'm sure you're right in terms of court proceedings but if I was being poisoned I'd find retaliatory vandalism entirely acceptable.

[wraithe]

If they where serious about stopping the spraying, they could use the environmental laws...
Spray drift would be a major issue and there really is nothing that aircraft drop that cant be done with machinery...Access to the trees at harvest would make it possibler for access from land based spray equipment...

I would be going the road of environmental vandalism because of spray drift...The state law does not over rule commonwealth law...

I think it goes like this "A Commonwealth act has precedence over a State act"

[Craig.a.c]

If somebody yells at you it is a form of assualt. As Alex just said, assualt is not just use of force.

[CoombellKid]

Having worked in the timber industry for a number of years. I can understand why some of these forestry workers react the way they do/did. And know what some of these feral greenies get up to too... the sabotageof machinery (designed to injure the operator) and the spiking of trees. While I dont agree with either sides violence, I certainly see why it happens. I think you would get pretty upset too if someone came in and made your workplace unsafe.

regards,CS

[andrewk_82]

Just an update on my Brother's situation. The pilot has been given an official warning and has also spoken to and apologised to those that he sprayed.
By the way I did check and it was definately NOT just water that was sprayed on the drillers. The pilot got off pretty lightly as far as I'm concerned. I guess those affected figure its not worth the hassell of pursuing it any further.
I hope (probably in vain) that incidents like this do not occur in the future on either side (protestors to workers or worker to protestors) as it achieves little and effects those that are just doing their jobs.

[AstralTraveller]

Not just court proceedings. I'm thinking in terms of winning the 'war', so actions have to be judged on how they affect that goal.

[xelasnave]

If insecticide was dropped have all go to the doctor ..for the record... the fact the guy has owned up and no action has been taken by those who should does not prevent those attacked from taking a civil action..I am not suggesting they do however if you go to the doctor at least you will be well set up if the need to take action should arise sometime in the future..who knows what the future holds if it were insecticide...

alex:):):)

[AstralTraveller]

Perhaps you can clarify something for me regarding the spiking of trees. Do the spikers announce what they have done and make it clear that milling these trees could be dangerous? If they do then serious questions have to be asked of logging management. Any employer who becomes aware of a danger to their employees and fails to act is legally and morally culpable. Obviously the outcome the greenies want is to stop logging but there are alternatives. It can't be that hard to detect whether there is a piece of metal in a tree, after all airports routinely detect metal on people.

[andrewk_82]

It's a bit rich to be shifting the blame to logging management when logging management should not have to worry the trees being spiked. The protestors shouldn't be spiking the trees in the first place as the intent is to cause damage or injury.

[xelasnave]

Spiking should not occur. And the spikers are wrong however management has a duty of care that having been alerted to spiking they should not allow workers to be at risk... if they do they are probably as responsible for any injuy that may result to a worker... and that is fair as they are after all management and the buck stops there.

Most of these things cause irresponsible actions on many sides... these situations arise from emotive situations and folk dont think things thru... of course folk will justify their actions because they hate the other side and they are wrong... I dont know that we will ever see a world without conflict there are too many hot heads and although in the minority raise the level of hate in groups as a whole...hate does not work... but that is no reason to get rid of it according to humans.


alex:):):)

[AstralTraveller]

Who's shifting blame? It is a simple fact that once management know there is a hazard they are obliged to act.

Following your logic when gangs of hooligans repeatedly attack bus drivers management should just send the buses out the same way because no one should attack a driver; airlines shouldn't screen passengers because no one should blow up a plane; my campus security should not provide escorts because women should be able to walk alone at night in safety; and shops shouldn't remove unsafe toys from their shelves because they shouldn't be dangerous in the first place.

To recognise a danger and take appropriate measures is not to condone the source of the danger. I think that is a pretty simple concept.

Just in case there is any misconceptions here, I am not anti-logging or anti-mining. I understand full well that we require these industries. I do however have issues at times with some of their practices.

[ving]

thou doth protesteth too much!

[TrevorW]

Instead of attacking people who are only doing their jobs legitamately do something constructive not destructive.

Any action which needlessly causes harm or could kill someone who is going about there day to day business legally is nothing less than terrorism and terrorism as far as I'm concerned is often just reactions by minority groups who do not have the politcal power or support of the majority of the population to change the status quo.

Look what happened to whaling when there was no longer a viable market for the by products of whaling.

If logging becomes unprofitable or can be proven to cause more harm than good or alternatives are found it too will go the same way as the whaling industry.

Protestors should use their energy, voting and buying power to encourage changes in the general populace to stop the unnecessary destruction of old growth forrests before it is too late but not resort to needless acts of vandalism which does nothing for their cause.

[acropolite]

If you do some research you will find that forestry is already massively subsidised. Here's a starting point, read this article (http://tasmaniantimes.com/index.php?/weblog/article/without-the-losses-forestry-makes-gunns-could-not-exist/), if that doesn't convince you just google "Forestry subsidies in Tasmania".
At least in our state, the simple fact is that logging companies are destroying our native forests at an alarming rate, they are buying up valuable agricultural land using tax avoidance MIS schemes and putting farmers out of business.

To put it simply, we can't eat trees, and maybe if you have had to wait a lengthy time for hospital or health care (as we do in this state), or you have children in a school that is underfunded, you may like to ponder the fact that corporate welfare to the forestry sector is taking your taxpayer dollars that could have been otherwise spent on health or education.

[xelasnave]

Plantation forrests are a scam.
Up here the old farmers are selling prime land for useless trees...this land does not need irrigation for many crops and yet we have the water problem out West...so these companies dont include the real estae in the company assetts...that is the prize so uncle Freds Trust holds the real estate I guess. AND when the harvest is made do you really think there will be any cash for shareholders and creditors...no the market is down or something but irrespective of the excuse that will be the result.
However these enterprises spread some quick money around a community and folks keep quiet and dont say what I say...but everyone knows it is a short term effort that sees prime land disappear until the future... in the future when the trees are gone we will probably need the land for houses...but it is a shame that good food land goes wasted and out West rivers are stuffed for the want of sensible farming.

alex

[CoombellKid]

Fair enough.... but they're only planting on land that has been clear felled of native forests by the _farmer_. Funny how no protesters picket farmers who get permits to do so. The way I see it these plantation are duel purpose. Once the trees have established themselves the farmer re-introduce cattle into the plantations. Spraying is mostly done during thisestablishment time. It also better for the cattle to have shade insteadof clear pasture and no place to hide, especially when some breeds areprone to sunburn. Besides you can keep the plantation growing until youwant to harvast, your not set to a timetable.

[CoombellKid]

No I've never heard that sort of anouncement. Beside I think it is actuallyillegal to do so, maybe why they dont advertise it. Spiking is not alwayvisible and any signs disappear with time (can be weeks). Spiking canalso introduce desease to the tree. Perhap these ferals greenies should beforced to go in and do the work, once to see what happens when thechainsaw they will be using hits a spike. People loose limbs, people whoare someones father, brother, son, sister, mother...etc...etc... they'recalled rednecks because they reteliate... I'd say the rednecks are theidiots willing to tout that name.

[CoombellKid]

I totally agree to a certain extent. So when these greenies come in waving their "Green Peace" flags. The management will know who to sue!!! excellent idea. I think that would be a sizable bill for the enviroment movement, and the forestry worker along with the company wont be out of pocket : ))))

[Miaplacidus]

I hope your brother is okay, Andrew.
What a bloody stupid thing to do. What if someone had been allergic, or if it had triggered a fatal asthma attack? I would have thought you needed more than just a brainstem to pilot a plane, but obviously I'm wrong. If someone in a car did something similar then they should forfeit the right to drive, IMO. I'm pretty "zero tolerant" when it comes to things like that, I'm afraid, especially when it involves spinning blades and huge chunks of moving metal.
I know nothing about the law. Can your brother and the other workers initiate civil proceedings against the pilot?

Interesting can of worm that's been opened here, BTW. Just for the record, I'm fairly green myself, somewhere between pale and deep. Round about olive, maybe... Anyway, I'm one of those hypocrits who hates Gunns but uses their products.