127 APO North Group - Problems?

[AdrianF]

21 days ago I purchased the 127mm APO scope from North Group in China. I am now getting worried that I may have done my $$$. I cannot get replies to any email in the last 5-6 days and now I am getting emails bounced back as undeliverable.
6 days ago I did get a reply to 1 email stating that some of the accessories are not available at that time and they would keep me informed. I have since tried to contact the company using the addresses on their website but like I said undeliverable.

Anyone else having problems with them?

Adrian :mad2:

[TrevorW]

If you paid by creidt card get the bank to cancel the transaction or if via PayPal do likewise it's not worth the stress IMO

[Astrod00d]

Perhaps they've gone to watch the Olympics. Many businesses in China have been forcibly shut down by the govt. for the time being. They are nowhere near Beijing but that may be the reason.

Seriously though, myself and others have dealt with North Group in the past and found them to be honest.

Cheers,

Rob

[h0ughy]

In all honesty I would say most businesses like this have been shut by either reliance on other businesses and those being closed for the games or materials being limited because of the games being on. I have had email’s bounce back as well. I know they are there as I got a read receipt to a terse email about the focuser quality, but no reply (didn’t really expect one). Hang in there – I suspect you will be getting it around the 40 day mark. Lets hope they took on board my focuser suggestions?

[Phil]

I had a problem with the focuser and emailed then about. Had no problem with then they sent me a new part to fix it. Hang in there like houghy said.
Phil

[AdrianF]

I will hang in there as you say but it is getting difficult to have patience. I suppose I could mount the WO 66mm on the EQ6 and try to learn to drive it in the meantime. However the bloody flu as got hold of me chest infection aching joints especially the neck and jaw, -2 this morning and still sweating and believe it or not still at work (I must be stupid) wont be tomorrow tho its Rum o'clock tonight and see if I can kill the bug.

Adrian

[AdrianF]

I finally got an answer to the scope from North Group......



Dear Adrian,

Thank you for your mail. our high reflex 2" diagonal with adapter is absent because it need make 40 layer coating, and very difficult to achieve it meanwhile, current tube is not so good as last order to your country, and we sell them in our country, and will finish good tube by the end of this month, please wait for some time for good tube sorry for delaying.

Gilman


Not what I was hoping to hear but at least it is an answer, so at least another 10 days or more hopefully will turn up either before I go on holidays or after. Will be absent for 10 days during September.


Adrian

[RB]

I've moved this thread into "Equipment Discussions" for the benefit of others looking at scopes.

[h0ughy]

:whistle: that probably follows from some feedback they got??:whistle:

From: gilman@northgroup.cn [mailto:gilman@northgroup.cn]
Sent: Wednesday, 20 August 2008 10:57 PM
To: David Hough
Subject: Re: the 127Ed APO - some results and criticisms

Dear David,

Thank you for your comment about our tube,
we have told your review to our engineer, they will investigate your comment,
any modification, we will tell you.

Best Wishes

Gilman
----- Original Message -----
From: David Hough
To: 'gilman@northgroup.cn'
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:31 AM
Subject: the 127Ed APO - some results and criticisms

Gilman,

I have had this scope now for over 2 months, and have run it through its paces. I am severely disappointed with the focuser, it is a poor effort and has many design flaws. The number of locking screws for the fitting of 2” products should be 3 or even 4, not just one!! It is a sloppy fit for 2” adapter that has no slop in my Meade lx200R or the celestron 8” SCT I have. The camera is not kept at right angles to the plane of the light, but on an angle and it is near impossible to get it focussed. It does not allow for a lot of weight (i.e. imaging with dslr’s or CCD cameras) as the appliance slips out of focus. On the plus side the ability to rotate the finder scope is brilliant, but there is no ability to rotate the camera unfortunately?

I am getting rid of your factory fitted focuser and I am installing a Moonlite focuser (http://www.focuser.com/cgi-bin/dman.cgi?page=category&plugin=dstore.cgi&category=2 ) on this telescope.

David Hough

[AdrianF]

I hope they took the feedback to heart and are fixing the problems before I and anyone else take delivery. Still I hope the wait is worth it.

Adrian

[AdrianF]

Just been notified by Gilman that my scope and accessories are ready:D

BUT they need to make a new ally case to fit it all in so they wont be sending before next week :sadeyes:
At least its an answer to the 40 or so emails I have sent in the last month wondering where it is. Just hope the wait is worth it.

Adrian

[AdrianF]

If anyone is looking at buying a scope from Northgroup in China hang on to your money. Emails I am sending are being returned as undeliverable. I have resorted to making a complaint to the Chinese Embassy and a dispute through PayPal.
I'll keep you posted.

Adrian

[Dennis]

Hi Adrian

That is really sad news and very disappointing for you I’m sure. I wish you every success in resolving this dreadful situation and thanks for letting everyone know.

Cheers

Dennis

[allan gould]

Adrian
Thats a sad end to your saga. I really hope that you get a sattisfactory resolution. Unfortunately in dealing with China over the years the truth will be hard to find.
I wish you the best in your endevours
Allan

[AdrianF]

I sent a quick email this morning in the off chance that this one would get through. Hioptic are looking into what is happening and will get back to me ASAP

Adrian

[h0ughy]

i emailed gilman this morning and I know he read my email as I got a read receipt - no reply as yet.

[AdrianF]

Good news? I received a reply from Gilman this afternoon as follows

we will send cargo to you today, then give you the tracking no.,please cancel paypal complaint,
ED APO is new products, and we must give you a good quality of scope,so deliver it so late, please understand us.

And then

Dear Sirs
[your ED APO127 is ready,please give us your mailed address, and tel. no to us,
we will mail it to you via express,

Best Wishes
Gilman

North Group

I expect the scope to arrive, if Gilman does infact send it, next week sometime and guess what? I wont be home for 9 days to receive it but my daughter will. At least its something to look forward to when I do get home.

Adrian

[seeker372011]

fingers crossed its going to be ok

[Terry B]

Having bought and received one of these scopes in the first batch I think he has lots to lose and nothing to gain from ripping us off. It should be a good earner for him. Best wishes with the scope when it arrives.

[h0ughy]

very much so - and he was reminded of this this morning;)

[AdrianF]

I am really looking forward to receiving this scope, its been a bit of a roller coaster ride for me with the thought of being ripped off. I would not have been so concerned if he had at least let me know what was happening with the order but not answering emails and having emails bounce back as not deliverable was a bit of concern. Houghy played a big part yesterday by also sending email to Gilman, I dont know what was in it but obviously it worked.
Anyway I am on holidays as of friday and will be travelling around this great state and hopefully find some dark, clear skies. Going from Roma to Mt Isa and meet up with the Astro Guys there and then Townsville Yeppoon and the Gold Coast and Barambah on the way home to Roma about 10 days of driving. The plans will more likely to change at anytime.

Adrian

[miketheobscure]

I'm considering one of these scopes, & I feel like I've been on a roller coaster ride just lurking on this thread! :rolleyes:

- Mike

[allan gould]

Adrian
Keep in there. It will pan out eventually but you could have done without all the drama

[h0ughy]

I will not vouch for the company;) - but their english translation is not good so there can be a little difference in the interpretation of some questions. I feel as though if you keep sending emails to them it becomes like spam – and they ignore it. The bottom line is they are a company that is in the business of making and delivering the 127Ed APO and from my experience you will wait out the 40 days, plus or minus a few weeks depending on whether or not they were able to secure the materials to build the scopes within the quoted timeframe. the delivery once sent is very prompt! Their focusers are not the best – either need tweaking or like a few of us have done gone out and purchased a moonlite focuser for this beast. Optically this scope has knocked my socks off, unfortunately for me imaging was a nightmare because of the focuser, but from Allan Gould’s experience and you can see from his images it is a winner. I took the gamble, and I think for me it has paid off, even with an upgraded focuser, way cheaper than if I had gone to get a scope of this size from someone else (they retail in AUS for over $3000, see here(http://www.myastroshop.com.au/products/details.asp?id=MAS-430 ), and here (http://www.astro-optical.com.au/viewscope.php?scopeid=182&minnum=0&maxnum=5&priceband=all&sort=name&x=32&y=7 ) now you must realise that with the Aussie dollar going down the gurgler yet again (currently under 78), that this will affect the pricing on these scopes. I bought mine when the Australian dollar was very near the 96 cent mark – bargain!! So if you are after one of these – go in with your eyes open and be ready to accept delays, it’s worth the wait.

I also received a email from Gilman yesterday confirming priced on these scopes and accessories :

Dear David

Thank you for your mail.
our ED 127 with dual speed focuser, OTA,
with ring and dovetail rail,
with aluminium case package,
without diagonal and eyepiece.
USD815

other accessories are option as follows :
high reflex 2" diagonal, USD20
high reflex 2" diagonal with adapter, USD22
high reflex 2" dielectric diagonal,USD55
8x50 finder scope with illuminating reticle, USD25
8x50 finder scope erected image, with illuminating reticle, USD70
WA10mm, USD20
WA15mm, USD21
WA20mm, USD22
ED2.3mm, USD29
ED3.8mm, USD29
ED5.2mm, USD30
ED7.5mm, USD31
ED9.5mm, USD32
ED12.5mm, USD32
ED14mm, USD33
ED18mm, USD33
ED21mm, USD34
ED25mm, USD34
2"/50.8mm, 2x, ED Barlow Lens, Multi Coated, USD35

there are 2 kinds of mounts as follows :
(1)
ED80 small altaz mount with goto system & tripod, USD210
ED102, ED127 big altaz mount with goto system & GPS & tripod & aluminium case, USD590

(2) EQ5 equatorial mount, USD125,
goto system is USD280,
GPS is USD95,
Thanks a lot.

Gilman

North Group

[miketheobscure]

Oh it looks a bargain to be sure. Which Moonlite did you get to fit? (I don't see it on their flange chart).

Regards, Mike

[h0ughy]

Its not - you have to specifically ask for this model version as this scope is not sold in the US

[seeker372011]

how difficult is it to install a Moonlite? and is collimation a challenge as well?

[h0ughy]

it literally just screws onto the tube assembly - end of story and done in under a minute, that's removing the old focuer and installing the new one. I have not had a chance yet to adjust or test the collimation, but i will. Actually i have not had time to read the literature that came with the focuser. perhaps I should:D

[gregbradley]

How do you rate the 127mm APO Houghy? Is it good?

How much are they?

Greg.

[miketheobscure]

Ah ok, makes sense, thanks - Mike

[AdrianF]

My Telescope as been posted :eyepop:and is currently on the plane winging its way to Oz as we speak:D

Adrian

[h0ughy]

good news - you should have it before you go away:)

[h0ughy]

Greg,
its no Tak, but its no lemon either (except for the bog standard focuser (unless they took on board Allan and My suggestions)) seek out Allan's images and have a look. As for the price - i posted the current price in USD above ^^^^^ , but when i got mine it cost me 1237 AUD delivered and 538 USD for the motorised moonlight focuser. Visually it is spectacular - very sharp. I am yet to image properly with mine but hope to in the near future. Would I give it up and sell it - NO. Fantastic portable setup - the case is brilliant :thumbsup: and as Allan has proved it will operate on the HEQpro5!

[gregbradley]

Thanks Houghy.

This may be the start of what Roland Christen of AstroPhysics fears - high quality Chinese triplets at low prices. They may end up being the Takahashi's of 20 years from now.

Greg.

[h0ughy]

i found an email which will describe everything:


From: RONALD NEWMAN
To: David Hough
Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 11:22 PM
Subject: moonlite


Hi Dave,

Good to hear from you.
We have the new version in stock, but when ordering put a note in the comments box "For new ED 127" that way we ship the correct flange on the focuser.
Yes the new ED 127 flange is collimatable, and holds focus when rotated. We put twin dove tails finder brackets on this particular flange. It looks close to the Vixen style flange (shown on our page under the CFL models) in regard to the finder bracket layout.

We have not added the new focuser to the web page yet, however see attached photos--

Take Care
Ron

[miketheobscure]

Looks like the 127's made it to the Moonlite web page now (unless I missed it entirely last time I looked). I've also (ahem) emailed Gilman ... though I know that's a slippery slope I'm loitering near ... ;)

[JR1560]

Are we talking $450USD for the correct Moonlite Focuser?

What would be the best mount for this scope? The EQ5 that North group sells is not the HEQ5, right? I'm a little confused about these mounts. Are they made by Skywatcher, or HiOptic? Anyone know?

Skywatcher has an EQ5, EQ6, EQ5 Pro Syntek and EQ6 Pro Syntek. There is a new one, an NEQ6.

Is there another vendor in China that sells these mounts?

[h0ughy]

yes, if you go for the manual focus one. remember to order the locking mechinism which is extra. HEQ5PRo or the EQ6pro, or a losmandy G11 or overkill with a titan, or G8 for that matter, probably a temma mount as well, paramount ME, probably even get away with a meade LX75 mount, and the celestron version?:whistle: as for the makers - go to their respective web sites

[allan gould]

The best mount for a scope of this size or weight would be the EQ6 without doubt. Then you can add a guide scope etc without problems

[Terry B]

I have mine piggybacked on my VC200L on an EQ6. I can switch around the imager and guider depending on which scope I want to use. Currently the 127mm is being used as a guide scope as I'm taking photometry images through the VC200L but for pretty pics when there isn't any moon around I will probably swap them. I had to add about 8kg of weights to the mount with this combination but it is still well under the mounts rating and will goto accurately. I will usually have my target within a 18x12arcmin CCD frame after slewing.

[allan gould]

I forgot to add, - check your focuser. If it is like David's with slop in the clamping mechanism of the focuser then get the moonlight. Mine was ok but I still did the transplant. Love the focuser and it makes the scope so easy to use - a well spent $450. The two together are a real winner.

[AdrianF]

I have just got the news that my scope as made it thru customs and is in Brisbane should be delivered in the next day or so,woohoo. Ever tried sending emails from phone while bouncing around? Bloody difficult

Adrian

[allan gould]

Good news - I hope its all you expected.

[seeker372011]

good news and I am sure you will find it worth the wait

[h0ughy]

well mate its all up to you now - enjoy

[AdrianF]

My new scope was delivered today :) but I am in sunny yeppoon 800k away
Adrian

[jilldwr]

I've been following this thread with a lot of interest. This scope sounds too good to be true...almost. I've emailed Gilman requesting price & delivery to my location but I haven't heard back as yet. I purchased a 90mm triplet from Hong Kong last year, and I had a hard time paypal-ing the $800us to some character in China. It turned out to be the best scope I ever owned for $800. Focuser sucked though! Funny thing is, shipping only cost $50us from Hong Kong to central Canada and I got it in the same week I paid for it! I only had to chew my fingernails for 4-1/2 days!
What I'd like to know is, how did you guys pay for your scopes? At least with Paypal, I had a customer service hotline I could call and some measure of fraud protection. I'd have a real hard time sending a $1100 bank draft to China! And isn't $200 shipping a lot??

Darrell

[h0ughy]

payed with paypal;) but you will wait a while for the scope to be delivered

[AdrianF]

Paid with paypal no problems. You will have to wait awhile as Houghy said was originally quoted 10 days delivery but blew out to 45+ days. I am happy with the scope except the focuser but that is in hand and hopefully soon fixed.

Adrian

[JR1560]

It works in America too. Confirmed with Gilman, paid by paypal, shipped a week later, and arrived here in 6 days. No damage, everything seems to be ok. I don't have a mount, I ordered an EQ6 from Canada.

Hats off to you guys. I thank you all for your expert opinions and very thorough posts. I enjoy reading Ice in Space, and I've learned a lot. Plus I saved a bundle of money.

Cheers,

John R. Athens Georgia

[junkm]

Hi
I,v been trying to find the link to by the 127ED (retail) with no luck - North Group & Hioptics. All what I can find are Wholsale, PLEASE Can any one give me the link to the retail
Where and How did you buy that telescope?
thanks.

[h0ughy]

not sure where you are junkm, but in Australia there are two retail outlets that sell this scope, Astro optical and Myastroshop. they are not imported into the US anymore (Meade put a stop to that) and are retailed through Meade Europe through various outlets

[telecasterguru]

I had a look at the northgroup.cn website this morning and the link to the telescope section is not active. Also the link to the contact section is not active.

[h0ughy]

well that could be true - heaps of factories have gone with the economy like it is- maybe they were one of them. :shrug:

[junkm]

I mean retail in China (online shopping). It is available in USA (Explore Scientific) but it cost US$2,000+shipping, while from China around US$500.

http://store.explorescientific.com/127mmf7_5EDApoOTAwithDeluxeCaseandA ccessories.aspx

The question still : Where and How did you buy that telescope?

Thanks.

[h0ughy]

mate you need to do a little bit of reading through this thread http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=31566&highlight=127

[JR1560]

Try this site:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/52381997/127mm_ed_apo_telescope.html

I don't think they are out of business. They now have a 6" APO ED for around 3K.

I believe Meade and ES is dealing with another concern and has no deal with Gilman.

[netwolf]

Is this the same scope? Aperture and Fratio are the same also the Dewshield colouring seems to be similar.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3084322/page/0/view/collapsed/sb/5/o/all/fpart/1

[h0ughy]

yep the focusers are crud so they are replacing with a better quality one

[seeker372011]

From an email from Gilman a couple of days ago

2" Dual Speed Crayford Focuser for ED APO152, 127, 102, 80.



Right is our new dual speed crayford focuser, add silver color - hard stainless,

More smooth adjustment, more heavy payload reach 4kg,

With lock screws for astrophotography.

With 2" to 1.25" adapter for wide range eyepiece option.

Fine polishing finish for 2 crayford focuser surface.

$180 US all in (inc freight)

so Gilman seems back in business .

[Astrod00d]

I received a similar email from Gilman yesterday. USD180 sounds reasonable for a good focuser. Wouldn't be as slick as the MoonLite focuser, but...

He also mentioned their new ED APO 152mm. Has anyone seen user tests or reviews of this new scope?

Cheers,

Rob

[AlexN]

mmmm budget 6" APO!! me = drooling at the thought.

[TrevorW]

Alex down boy !!!!

[AlexN]

:D Ahhh you know me so well.. :P

[Wavytone]

It's only an achromatic doublet - not ED - and at f/6.5 it won't be all that great

http://store.explorescientific.com/doubletachromaticrefractortelescope s.aspx

There is a reason why ED lenses cost more.

[AlexN]

Yea you're looking at the wrong thing... As Astrod00d mentioned ED APO 152mm.. ED APO being the part you seem to have missed... Its not listed on the explorescientific website.. I agree, a 6" F/6.5 achro would not be a nice telescope. but if the 127ED APO is anything to go by, the 152ED would be pretty awesome.

[Chippy]

Certainly could be. Alex, I propose that you be the first in Oz to buy and test one of these beasts ;)

I've been considering their 127ED myself, but too many scopes :(

[AlexN]

Hah! would love too.. Bank account says no! :) Besides, I've had the RC for 3 months nearly and only had it out imaging once due to weather.. im not endangering my chances to get out under the sky by purchasing another telescope for QUITE some time! :)

[seeker372011]

here's the gen about the new apo

new products, we present you as follows >
our ED152 OTA,
(built-in 2pcs of ED glass during triplet elements objective lenses)
with advanced quality electro-motor dual speed focuser for astro-photography,
with ring and dovetail rail,
with aluminium case package,
with 2 inch dielectric diagonal 99% reflex,
with wide angle eyepiece,
with 8x50 erecting image of finder scope.

USD3950
anyway
not in my budget range

[AlexN]

mmm for that kind of money I'd be more interested in a TMB 130, 2nd hand TOA130 or perhaps if you could find one a 2nd hand TEC140FL..

[AdrianF]

As anyone bought one of the new focusers yet? $239AU is not a bad price compared to Moonlight focuser at $500AU but maybe not the same quality.

Adrian

[Tandum]

There's now also a motorised option :-

our ED127 with advanced dual speed focuser for camera, OTA,
with ring and dovetail rail,
with aluminium case package,
without diagonal,eyepiece,finder scope.
USD935

if add electro-motor part only for advanced dual speed focuser,
add USD100,

[edit]
I have another email that says the motor can be ascom driven but won't be available till the end of June.

[TrevorW]

The maths don't add up

$935USD for 127ED
$3950USD for the 152ED

[marki]

Yes it does Trev, you pay 935/ 127 = $7.36 US for every mm upto 127mm then its ((152 - 127)/(3950 - 935)) = $120.60 US for every mm after that:P :D.

Mark

[AlexN]

it doesnt add up doing the math based entirely on aperture...

6" FPL53 blanks are a lot harder to come by than 5" ones Thus raising the initial cost of materials, figuring a larger objective as I understand it is considerably harder than a smaller one, and so raises the cost of labour. Demand for a 6" triplet APO is high, up goes that price again by a little...

Look at the Skywatcher Black Diamond scopes, or the Equinox series etc.. The 80mm is much less than half the 120mm in cost, however 80mm is more than half of 120...

You cant expect end product price to be solely based on aperture alone.. The tube would be more expensive to manufacture, would need to be stronger, the focuser would have to be re-designed etc etc etc....

I wonder how much you could buy a 2nd hand Meade 178ED for on Astromart... ?? :)

[marki]

I think they charge it because they can Alex. I mean who else is offering a 152mm apo triplet for under 4K? They could probably go a lot further if they wanted to but these are really seen as a budget scope so that would probably defeat their purpose.

Mark

[AlexN]

True, True, however it would be considerably more expensive from a manufacturers stand point than the 127ED also... Remember, who else sells a 127ED for <$1000?

[marki]

No doubt Alex but 400% more expensive for 25mm more aperture seems a bit of a stretch to me. Surely you would be better off buying 4 x 127mm and rigging up a system to allow you to concentrate all the light in one spot :P.

Mark

[Satchmo]

?????? The 120mm lens has 225% larger surface area than an 80mm so more than twice the price is entirely understandable. They would also probably manufacture and sell 10X more 80mm scopes than 120mm ones, so in fact they probably make a lot more profit on the 80mm scopes.

Mark

[marki]

Mark do you have any idea how much more expensive 152mm blanks would be over 127mm?

Mark

[AlexN]

Or buying 2 + 2 CCD's and getting twice the data in half the time! :) :)

haha.

Mark S.
True, in surface area.. I do also see a direct correlation when you look at things like the TMB 130SS vs the TMB 152mm triplets, their price for the 6" is a hell of a lot more than the 5".. Im not sure with regards to the TOA130 vs TOA150, however I do assume that its similar...


All said and done, no matter which way you look at it, you couldn't personally build one cheaper than you can buy this one... Buying and figuring the objective would probably cost you more than this entire OTA, and your results would not come with any form of warranty..

[Tandum]

I think that 6" might be a petzval scope.

[AlexN]

Im fairly certain their 6" achro is a petzval, what with it being F/5 iirc, however the 152ED is marked as a triplet, not a quadruplet, as a petzval would be.

[Tandum]

Probably right. I'm having a bit of trouble reading jinglish :)

built-in 2pcs of ED glass during triplet elements objective lenses