David Malin Awards Are they losing it.

[Hagar]

Hi all, I am wondering what you all think???>??

Has these wonderful awards moved into the realm of the professional/semi professional who can afford to spend a year or more's wages on the set up most of us can only dream of to stand a chance of winning an award.

How many unknown participants do you see each year placing entries? Not too many I guess.

The quality of the images is fantastic to say the least but it is near impossible for the Mr average with Mr Average gear to get a look in to anything other than the true widefield or landscape type sections which places most on somewhat of an even playing field and relies on skills in capture and processing with in most cases standard gear affordable to most of us.
Can you tell I'm bored...
What do you think????

[turbo_pascale]

It's a competition!!!
The best should win. No matter what. Create categories (cause much whining by every group with an agenda at the same time), and be done with it!

Should I get a medal in the olympics just because I'm a Mr Average?

I don't get the point.

(It is cold, wet and cloudy here too!)

[dugnsuz]

Naahh, Disagree Doug many of those amateur images are within anyones (on this forum and others) grasp - Yeah the big boys and their big toys aren't , how could they be. But, Phil Hart's and Gary Hills are examples of thoughtful planning and exucution! Kudos to those guys.
Peter Ward's "Moondance" is a great example too from one of the big boys!
Creativity is the go not equipment!
I wish I was creative!!:sadeyes:

[Hagar]

The point really is where do you draw the line between professional and amatuer.

The same line is now very blurred in the Olympic movement with poorer countries and competitors struggling between work and training and the wealthy supported or sponsored can put everything in to training. The less fortunate are unable to compete to full potential because training is interupted by the fact that they have to work.

I may be wrong here but I was of the opinion that competition is only true and fair if the playing field is equal.

[dugnsuz]

Agreed Doug,
but the competition is sub divided into Semi-Pro and Amateur, so up front there's a divide as to experience/equipment.
I've got no problem with the Malin Awards - in fact I think it's the one award that many IISers can aspire to ( if that's your bag baby!!!).
I have no problem being called an amateur either!

[spearo]

I can understand the frustrations but in my mind it's relatively simple:
professionals = derive income from their imaging
amateurs = dont

a competition drives people's dedication to produce ever increasing quality of results and in this field, unlike physical sports, the results are a combination of efforts (nights out, processessing skills, etc.), creativity and equipment.

I think its always a tricky topic for those organising any competition as to how to break down categories and whether there should be categories per equipment but there will never be a simple formula as discussed elsewhere recently.

One thing's for sure in my mind is that the "bar" has been raised very high in the past few years but I think this can be inspiring (it is to me) and motivates me to keep working on my material to see how I can get the best out of what I've got.

I congratulate all winners of the Malin awards and encourage everyone else who strive to produce all the great shots we see in IIS.
frank

[iceman]

Interesting point, Doug, but I don't know how you can expect the premier astrophotography competition in Australia to cater for everyone with every budget and every gear available.

It's like complaining about a national photography competition because you've only got a 1.3 megapixel point and shoot camera.

These top-level competitions are meant to showcase and highlight the best astrophotographers (both amateur and semi-pro) that Australia has to offer. And it does a damn fine job at doing that.

I agree that it's near impossible for your typical amateur with entry level gear to compete in the deep-space category against the brilliant images produced on high-end gear by the likes of Mike, Jase, Martin etc.
But that's not a fault of the competition.

Maybe the competition could have split categories for DSLR's and CCD's. But even DSLR's are blurring the lines these days. Modded and non-modded. Cooled and non-cooled. And for CCD's, where does the DSI fit? Or the Orion imager? Yeh they're CCD's but the quality they produce is more in line with DSLR's - they don't match against the SBIG's and FLI's etc.

Maybe there just needs to be a separate competition, for amateurs on entry level gear. Put a price cap on the equipment you can use to get the images. Then it really will come down to you on your gear with your processing. But even then, where do you draw the line?
Your Tak will produce better images than my ED80. Your QHY8 will produce better images than my unmodded 350D.

It's impossible to please everyone and have a category for everyone.

I think the DM awards are an excellent showcase for the talent in this country. The rules may need some fine tuning for rent-a-scope data and maybe some category tuning, which has already been discussed in this thread (http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=33655), but apart from that, I think the DM awards are fine as they are.

[[1ponders]]

While the DM award have only been running for a relatively short time, really accessable, relatively cheap, excellent quality, consumer equipment has really only been available for the last couple of years. And though Mike said the competition is to award the best of the best (regardless of their status) I can see a time when the competition could expand to include a far greater range of imaging standards and proficiency levels.

[rally]

What sort of an astro competition would you suggest if you don't like theirs ?

[renormalised]

There's alot of people who can't even afford the lower end of the market, and probably never will be able to. The lower end can set you back quite a bit of cash, so it's really all relative. There probably should be categories based on equipment cost, as you couldn't expect someone using an ED80/QHY8 combo to compete with a RCOS/SBIG setup. They're just not in the same league.

[Hagar]

I tend to agree with each of the comments posted. I originally posted the question as a discussion point due to the fact there had been so much spirited discussion on this and other forums re the use of professional equipment and rent a scope images. Have been involved in organising numerous competitions of one type or another there is always some spirited discussion about the why and wherefores of them all. I think this type of discussion is very healthy and in most cases tends to shape the way a competition is structured and run.

The point I was trying to make is that everyone has an axe to grind with organisation and rules in every pastime. We all feel differently about our own expectations and the expectations of others.

If the organisers of this wonderful award listen to half the constenation and gripes people have with this type of competition it can only stand to be improved and in the long term cater for more of the hopeful and more amatuer people amongst us.

An old retail strategy which is very true is "If the product for sale is not up to the consumers requirements, the bussiness will go broke." Product, in this case the rules and structure needs to evolve to maintain it's popularity and participation. One upset or disgruntelled shopper equates to the loss of about ten prospective customers. This is true with every organisation and the DM Awards will be no different.

[strongmanmike]

I think the essence of the David Malin awards is being missunderstood here Doug?

The David Malin Awards and exhibition are about displaying the best and most beautiful astrophotography that Australian astrophotographers are producing, not trying to give everyone a chance at a lucky door prize.

there were 106 entries this year, so with a maximum of 5 entreis per category per entrant, I think there were indeed many "unknown" entrants

There is plenty of scope for basic equipment users, just take a look at the field of winners and honorable mentions this year, plenty of basic DSLR's and camera lenses in there and web cams or similar too. Last years overall winning image and the the overall winner in 2006 were both done with DSLR's with lenses and a small telescope.

It is simply not right to say that the David Malin awards is out of reach for so many, so I am baffled at the complaint..? :shrug:

Mike

[Hagar]

Mike, Try reading the post I and others have made and see if you can lift above the lucky door prize reteric. This was a post to initiate a little discussion. If my posts have offended you I am sorry but still feel the DM Awards could be better structured and serve more of the astrophotography community and do more to promote Astrophotography as a great healthy pastime. A lot of members have had a bit to say about rent a scope images.

Check out the following threads. I think they highlight some of the issues or concerns with both The David Malin Awards and the SPSP photo competition.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=32920&highlight=david+malin+awards

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=28610&highlight=Photography+competition&page=1

Discussion is usually healthy.

[Alchemy]

My impression is the Malin Awards are to showcase the highest quality images possible, in certain sections high end equipment is going to be almost mandatory (large format CCDs, Large high quality Scopes, almost flawless mounts, Adaptive Optics etc) thats just the way it is, im probably a little bit jealous that i cant afford such items, but thats life.

i did notice the Windswept stars entry that won the trails section and thought it was a wonderful image.

I have just gone back to producing images for my own pleasure and the wall of my office, changing one for a better image when it happens, enjoying the personal satisfaction that its something i did and dont need the approval of others.

[mick pinner]

why not leave the Malin awards as they are, new competitions can always be started to cater for specific equipment and skill levels. l admire David Malins contributions to astrophotography but an award with his name on it is not necessarily the be all and end all.

[strongmanmike]

Offended..?? :shrug: moi? Never :P like emails, posts can often be missinterpreted pretty easily so no hard feelings on this one :)

I just think you and others who think that only high end equipment will guarantee you success in the Malin's are wrong, sorry :hi:

Hopefully many people will keep entering images in the DM's using what ever equipment they have and it all stays a bit of healthy competiton :thumbsup:

Mike :love:

[rally]

I had a quick look at all the entires here again
http://www.parkes.atnf.csiro.au/news_events/astrofest/awards/

All great work !

There appeared to me to be 10 or 11 out of the total of Winning images and Honourable mentions that were taken with ordinary DSLR Cameras and lenses and or scopes that could just as easily been almost any sort of average reasonable scope.
Two out of Five outright winners were taken with DSLR cameras
Nine out of Nineteen Honourable Mentions were taken with DSLR cameras
There were a lot of terrestrial shots or semi terrestrial shots amongst these.
At least one of these was a newcomer, but I just dont know enough of the people to know how many other newcomers there may have been.

Now you can't enter a photo competition unless you have a camera and a great image. Maybe there are some minority groups that wont be happy with this issue !
And so anyone with a DSLR costing as little as say $350 (plus lens) could have been eligible - this is not a prohibitive barrier to entry.

So it seems to me that almost everyone here could have had a really good chance of winning - had they bothered taking a great, creative photo and actualy entered.

Clearly the competition in the deeper space divisions favours higher end gear and high end skills and I should think that is a very much the intention - the results speak for themselves.

But unless I am missing something here the competition was very much a competiton available to everyone including the common man.
The odds of winning with a DSLR in this years competition were just under 50%
Now thats damn good odds for the average bloke !

So why is there even an issue about it ?
Or am I missing something.

Rally

[EzyStyles]

i think this is a very sensitive topic . there was a huge debate sometime last year regarding ppl with more expensive equipment will be a sure win. I think it is what you can do with your equipment and try to maximise the potential of what you have rather than comparing who's got bigger better equipment. :thumbsup:

[marki]

I think it would be interesting to setup a catergory similar to HQ holden racing. If you could get one of the big suppliers on board it could be used to showcase their gear eg orion make scopes, cameras and mounts. It could run something like this...

Supplier provides 10 sets of identical equipment. Entrants have thier name drawn from a barrel and are given a set time to to take their pics at the scope. Once time is up another entrant gets a go. You could then limit processing time to 2 hours making sure everyone gets a chance to make the most of their shots in the given time whilst using the same software(I know you can waste weeks on this) and its all square. Perhaps it could be called the DM production series :D. If nothing else it would be a lot of fun.

As for the Malin awards, I love seeing the work Mike and friends produce for this competition. It shows what is possible with good gear and a whole load of natural talent.

Mark

[Geoff45]

Why are people so obsessed with having a chance to win something? Surely the reason for taking astrophotos is for your own satisfaction and enjoyment and if they are good enough to enter, that´s fine but if not, what´s the problem? I jog, but don´t expect to win the City to Surf.

[Kal]

If Mr Average with Mr Average gear was truly determined to win an award then they would surely target their entry to the strengths of their Mr Average equipment. If that means widefield or landscape type sections then that should not be a problem for them. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the majority of the great entrants would have purchased their equipment in the first place with a specific goal of being able to produce some sort of targeted image. People buy specific equipment with the goal of doing widefield, large nebula, galaxy, planetaries, narrowband, landscape, or planerary type photos. Mr Average just needs to plan his purchases more carefully than others if he truly expects to be able to 'step up from the Average astroimager' which they will have to do in order to compete for the DM award!

[GrahamL]

Very true geoff.. ..trouble is when we start awarding places its one persons view..and thats never going to wash with everyone ..without the never ending discussion on changeing judging criterea..adding extra catergies etc ,etc .

Well thats what happens with painters anyway ..sound familiar at all?
I go to the art gallery to enjoy the art .. and don't give a rats arse how it was painted .
look at whats in front of you and be your own judge:)

[Hagar]

I think you missunderstand the meaning of the thread and some of your statements are truely flawed. Mr Average who has a real love and passion for deep space astrimaging who can only afford an ED80 and a toucam for instance is and has no chance of achieving anything in these awards. His images may well be the greatest web cam images ever presented and really stretch the boundaries if imaging and processing but he will never win an award. If i read the results correctly there was no award presented this year as an encouragement (I can't recal the actual wording used). This couple of awards were not presented. Seems a bit strange that a competition that has this award and 100+ entries that someone would not have fallen into this category. Does this mean the none of the entries were good enough or were they too good.

If the awards entries are a real cross section of the art of astro imaging I find it hard to believe someone in the group wasn't awarded this certificate.

I started this thread in an attempt to highlight and generate some discussion re these and other awards/competitions which have in the past been the topic of discussion re a whole gammut of why whynots and to give me something to read while it is still raining. I personally have no aspirations to win or enter this type of competition. The only competition I wish to enter and win is Tattslotto. It would make retirement a certainty not a future possibility.

Thanks for the reply.

[Kal]

This may sound a bit harsh to some, but a toucam and an ED80 should never win a DM award either. A toucam excels an an entry level planetary imager, while an ED80 excels as a widefield telescope. The two aren't the best mix for a winning entry. Increase the budget on your combination, going from an ED80 to a TeleVue 101is and from a toucam to a DMK imager, and this still wouldn't be a winning combination, even though the budgest is far greater. Your example shows that you completely missed my point.

A toucam combined with a larger reflector/cat is a potential winner for planetary imaging (although for a little bit more money there are better planetary imagers out there now).

An ED80 combined with a DSLR is a potential winner for deep sky.

As I said, for Mr Average who is on a small budget, you will have to plan your purchases towards a targeted image if you want to have a chance of seriously competing.

[ving]

there should be more "also ran" awards... or for crumby widefields that just dont make it for some reason... next year i am going to enter with a macro bug shot and a crux backdrop... :P

[rally]

David,

Re your Alien Bug

Thats the spirit.
And you know what ? - you might well have a really good chance of being selected.
It would be creative, involve Astro and if its all in focus (that makes it technically difficult) and if well composed is worthy of merit and that should be within anyone's budget who could contemplate entering !

Good luck - I look forward to seeing your entry.

Rally

[avandonk]

What would be really interesting if there were no names and no mention of equipment on the images just a number.

Bert

[iceman]

I'm pretty sure that's how it is judged - I could be wrong, but I thought David picked them from the images alone and John has the details about the whos and hows once they are picked.

[Peter Ward]

That is correct. DM judges the images with no knowledge of who the author is.

Obviously the image scale and resolution does give him a pretty good clue as to what generic type of instrument or camera lens was used....but nothing more.

[Hagar]

To use your words, a bit harsh is an understatement, A well taken, well structured and well processed image take with the above equipment should have as much chance of winning as a shot taken with &20k worth of equipment. If it doesn't then the competition is flawed and only available to those who meet a certain equipment level and not an image standard.

I have seen images which really stretch the boundaries take with this type of equipment and would shurely have expected an encouragement award to go to someone who has stretched those boundaries.

From your comentary I can only conclude your thoughts on the DM's are that they have elitest status. Why bothr to have encouragement type awards??

[Kal]

A well taken, well structured image of what? Name any object and I will give you a hardware/camera combination of equal budget that is more suited to imaging the object.

Just because something is possible doean't mean that it is potentially award winning.

And before you try to miscontrue my words, I encourage people to push the limits of what you can do with what you have. Personal satisfaction is a far greater reward than any award.

[mick pinner]

well put Andrew, as much as l would not be interested in entering such awards l am certainly spurred on by those that do, and those that don't.

[Hagar]

Andrew, It is apparent you are the resident equipment expert, at least in your own mind. Lets take an image of say, Tarantula Nebula. I really think you will struggle to find something in the same price bracket that will encompass the expance of this nebula, include correct colour rendition, and provide a sharp flat field.

Perhaps I should spell out the equipment list for comparison: ED80 $499, EQ5 with dual axis motors $799, Home Modified Toucam $200, Nebulosity capture software $50 and a free photo editor.

Do you actually image yourself or are you basing your expertise on what you have read?

Go for it, Have fun, I am.

[skeltz]

Jeez doug what does it take to get into your head the malin awards are for the best astro images?I f you don,t think you have a chance ...dont enter and don,t complain.
I myself think its great because it gives me goals to aspire to and reach ...or try!
It challenges us to produce better images...or at least try to,it gives some of us aspirations to do our best!
It seems to me nowdays it is not the whinging pom syndrome but more of the whinging aussie syndrome.
The competition showcases our best and gives us goals to shoot for.You remind me of one of my favourite quotes:Excuses are only made for failure ,no one ever made a excuse for success!!
clear skies all...cheers

[rogerg]

I've run an astrophotography comp in the past. I found it impossible to cater for different levels of equipment/money. I don't know how that can be fairly done and balanced against personal skill. I found that entry level people didn't feel encouraged to join in because of the competition, which defeated the purpose of the competition.

I think astrophotography is different to normal photography competitions in that there is much less flexibility on composition, less room to be artistic, etc. So I think that results in astrophotography do come down to the quality of equipment much more so than in normal photography. It's harder to offset the effects of lesser quality equipment with creativity and the like.

I don't complain about astrophotography competitions such as this one, because I don't have a better solution.

Roger.

[madtuna]

Mr Malin would be turning in his grave..if he read this thread.


oh yeah..and if he was dead :D

[avandonk]

This is why I never bother to enter any competition. I do imaging for my own pleasure and if someone else finds the image appealing that is good. I am very sorry folks but it is about getting better than yourselves.

As an aside we all can enjoy the superb images that are produced by the 'best' but one day I will beat them!

this is my 'best' so far

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~fmlee/lmcmos_hdr.jpg

Bert

[Hagar]

Thanks for this post Roger. It really says it all. It was the original intent of the thread but has certainly drifted sideways into a slanging match and again I am guilty. The real intent was to possibly highlight some of the shortcomings that have been posted on this and other forums.
Thanks again

Time to lock this thread as it has gone on long enough and is getting quite nasty.

[ving]

OK, YOU TALKED ME INTO IT...

lol. i have a eucalyptus tip bug nymph pic that will suit this perfectly :D

[Hagar]

Very nice image Bert You win

Not much point in me posting anymore images. Comments will be sparse I think.

[ving]

ok, and just to keep on topic... this comp i believe was to find what DM thought to be the best images, not best image considering equipment used. otherwise you'd have people doing sketches of jupiter with thier left foot and crayon and sighting the difficulties they went to and the conditions in which they had to work in order to draw thier reddy-orange blob and why because they got a cramp in thier big toe half way thu they should then therefore win the prize for best image ever even tho it looks like a reddy-orange blob compared to some guys jupiter that looks more like a cassini probe job cause it came from thousands of dollars of gear......

groan

[RB]

Thread has been locked at the request of Doug (Hagar).