What will you really see?

[Trido]

Without access to close by star parties I have no idea what to expect when I delve into the observational side of astronomy. What I am wondering is what should I expect to see (And how much detail do you expect to see) out of standard 10x50 Binos, say an 80 or 105 mm refractor and all the way upto a 10 or 12" Dob?

I intend to buy all 3 eventually and was just going to go with the Dob and Binos, but it has made me wonder how much detail I'll really get because DSOs are a big part of what I am interested in, but it seems that even with a 12" Dob, you won't see much but fuzzy images of things such as M31. I never expected to resolve to individual stars obviously but I did kind of expect a bit more visual detail.

Anyone able to advise what I really should expect to be able to see inside our solar system and galaxy as well as outside of our galaxy?

[PCH]

Hi, and welcome to IIS.

Well, you're right about one thing ! Even with a 12" dob you won't see all the beautiful coloured dso stuff you see in the photo section of IIS or magazines. Of course you could move in Astro Photography later to get this level of satisfaction.

But even for regular visual stuff, there's a great deal of satisfaction to be had by taking a look at all manner of heavenly bodies -(Pamela Anderson for example - they don't come more heavenly than that;)).

Some things are absolutely stunning to view thru a large dob at good magnification - like Saturn, Jupiter, the moon. Other bodies are best viewed more wide angle - like clusters and nebs where you might wish to see the whole thing.

And then, just a pair of half decent binos are great too for just panning the sky and taking it all in. There's room for all levels of observing. Even those who are experienced, and may have plenty of money will usually choose to have binos and a couple of different scopes for different situations.

I'd close with saying that if dso's and seeing them in all their technicoloured glory is vitally important to you, then forget visual astronomy and concentrate on astro photography.

Just my 2c worth :thumbsup:

Cheers,

[Trido]

Thanks for that. :) I knew colours just don't happen except for I guess the planets. I was just wondering what sort of detail you really get to see.

[Ian Robinson]

The binos are a good start .... lots of good stuff you can see with a nice pair of binos (not just good for stars and clusters and getting to know your way around the sky , you can also them to check out the chicks at the beach or spy on fishos from a handy headland) though I would look at 15x80 or 20x80 binos) as a great starter.

Skip the 80mm - 4" refractor and look at a good quality 10" dob (one with a good mirror cell and 2" focusor ... you can get a nice GEM for it later.

[Trido]

How hard is it to mate a Dob with a GEM?

[Babalyon 5]

Dunno, I give up! What do you get if you mate a dob with a gem?:lol:
What sort of telescope are you trying to breed??:rofl:

[Babalyon 5]

Seriously, a Dob is a reflector telescope mounted in a Dobsonian base. You just need a big enough GEM to carry it and use it correctly with the apprporiate cradle rings. A few guys here use 12in scopes mounted on EQ6 mounts. I use a 10in on a GEM.;)

[Ian Robinson]

Easy if the mirror cell holds the mirror in place irrespective of the orientation of the tube or how it rotates. Some sling types don't .... DANGER!!!.

If the mirror cell is pretty basic ,and lots are, the mirror glued to a bit of plywood or particle-board, it'll be OK.
Better mirror cells give better support and better mirror ventilation.
If the mirror his held firmly in all orientations then all you need dovetail bar to suit the GEM and tube rings to hold the tube and hey presto dob becomes a equatorial (GEM) mounted newtonian and suddenly you can lots of cleavour things (like deep space imaging with exposures).

[coldspace]

Trido,
It depends on your light pollution. Out in a dark rural sky a 12 inch scope will give you great viewing of alot of things deep sky, but if you live in the city on moonless nights you will get awesome views of the solar system and some OK views of some various deep sky stuff. If you don't have the time to get into astro photography and you want awesome instant satisfaction of viewing deep sky from suburbia then get a Mallincam hyperplus colour video system. This camera has cemented my new addiction of astro viewing in real time. Full colour images of the brighter deep sky objects in as little as 7 seconds exposure. I was bored with my 12 inch scope chasing many deep sky objects in my light pollution in suburbia but with this magic eye my scope now performs more like a 60 inch scope!!!! can't wait to try it out in dark sky. Have fun with what ever you do.

Regards Matt.

[jjjnettie]

Trido,
You're in luck. At the end of this month you can go to Queensland Astrofest. Listed as one of the top 10 star parties in the world.
http://www.qldastrofest.org.au/
It's an easy drive from Brisbane, but the sky's are dark and some of the scopes are HUGE!:eyepop:
Quite a few members of IceInSpace will be going.
If you're considering buying a scope, this is the place to go to see a wide range of setups. The last Friday and Saturday nights are the biggest, and during the day, the biggest telescope retailers from across the country showcase their wares. Bring money!;)

[psyche101]

I was suprised I do not seem to be able to resolve Jupiters GRS, I can make out bands, but my 10" Dob does not seem to show the planet much clearer than my 4". The Cassini division is only just visible. However, I did find the 10" to be an amazing deep sky experience. Rather than stronger magnification, I found larger apature to offer unparalleled clarity. But, that's probably just me, that's why I am in this section ;) Maybe you could look out for a local Astronomy club, I beleive most hire out scopes, that might help your desicion.

[Trido]

Sadly there are none located in the city I live in which is a big shame and what has stopped me from spending my money.

[jjjnettie]

Where do you live Trido?

[AlexN]

There must be something wrong there??? cant see the GRS or clearly separate the cassini division... I can do both with my 8" from suburbia...

Trido: A 12" will give great views of nebulae/star clusters etc, and planetary views will be astounding.. When you are comfortable that you have a good understanding of what you want out of astronomy, then you can make the decision to take the 12" out of the dob base and plonking it on top of a GEM (I just did this today :D)

ps. M31 is actually quite nice through a 12" scope.. from a dark site, M31 can be seen with unaided eyes.

[Geoff45]

With a 10" you should be able to see a large amount of detail in Jupiter´s cloud belts, not just make them out. However, for observing fine detail, collimation is extremely critical with a scope around f5, which I expect is your case.

[AlexN]

mm I was thinking collimation also.. I can quite clearly make out the GRS, the neb outbreak and a few other features, usually a bit of wavy detail in the neb/seb.. with a 10" i would only expect it to be better...

[Trido]

I am in Toowoomba. If anyone does know of any organisations that are based in Toowoomba, let me know. I am surprised because the Uni in Toowoomba offers Astronomy units and has a small obervatory located near Toowoomba.

[jjjnettie]

We do have an other IIS member who lives in Toowoomba. Unfortunately I can't remember his name. I'll see if I can find out for you.

Still, you should take the drive down the hill and check out Astrofest. It's an experience you shouldn't miss out on.

[AlexN]

You should get great views out of a 10" - 12" in toowoomba...

For visual observing, I dont think you'll get as much enjoyment out of a 80 - 105mm refractor. From memory, light pollution in Toowoomba isnt anything like it is here in brissy, however, 80 - 105mm just isnt much aperture, and even from dark skies, spending equal money on a reflector vs refractor, the reflector will almost always give better views.. Of course, your budget is currently unknown to us.. A good 12" will come in at around 750 (12" GSO dob) price varies on brand/where you buy it from etc... A good 80mm refractor + mount will cost you closer to 1000 (based on ED80 + Motorized EQ5 @ Andrews)

Dollar for dollar, Its cheaper to get more light gathering power and more focal length in the 12" Dobsonian...

As for details, You can expect to see structure in some galaxies (depending on how sever your light pollution situation is) others will still be faint fuzzies... large/bright nebula (M8/M42 Eta-Carina) you can expect to see great detail from a 12" in a 80mm refractor, you will see them, but making out detail might not be the easiest task.. I get better views from my 8" dob than my 150mm refractor....

Also, If this is your first scope, the simplicity of a dobsonian mount is very important... Its simple as plonking down the base, sitting the reflector in it and pointing it at what you want to look at. With equatorial mounts, set the tripod, level the tripod, attach the head, set the altitude/azimuth settings.. futher adjust polar alignment then start thinking about observing.....

Or as I just experienced, set the tripod, level, adjust for fair polar align go inside, make coffee, go outside - see clouds, tear it all down again... Very frustrating... With a dob, had I seen clouds it would have been "oh well.." pick it up and take it back inside....

Simplicity is the key. :)

[Trido]

Thanks so much for your input guys. Anything further would be appreciated! And I'll have to see if I can work in getting to Astrofest. It sounds like an amazing experience but I am rostered to work that weekend so we'll have to see. :/

*EDIT* The good thing about my location in Toowoomba is that I am on the side of a hill on the other side of the main light polluted areas so while I lose some sky on the north east horizon, I think it is worth it considering the excellent views I get and the lack of light pollution.

[Rodstar]

Hi Trido!

I heartily recommend you progress straight to the 10 or 12 inch dob (and in so doing echo the remarks of many others who have posted).

You will enjoy a great number of deep sky delights from where you live in that size scope. My first scope was 10 inches, and I spent many, many blissful hours touring the skies sampling many hundreds of beautiful objects from my backyard in relatively light-polluted suburban skies. My favourites with that sort of aperture are open clusters, double stars and globular clusters. With an OIII filter you will also be able to track down many planetary nebulae, which may be of interest to you. I always found galaxies and emission/reflection nebulae rather less noteworthy with 10 inches, but even then, if I travelled out to darker skies, the brighter of these objects would come out into their own as well.

One of the biggest issues will actually be being able to locate the objects in the first place. For that reason, having some sort of go-to functionality would be very useful if you are not likely to have much face-to-face contact with fellow amateur astronomers in your area. If you are getting a dob, you cannot go past getting an Argo Navis computer as an add-on. The maker of the Argo Navis is a member of this forum (Gary), and he could not be more helpful in getting you set up. This will enable you to readily access all of the objects you could ever hope to see in a 10 inch scope (its database is 30,000 objects, including all of the major catalogues, etc). On the other hand, you could get an SCT from Meade or Celestron. Such a unit is more expensive, and objects are not quite as bright as a dob inch for inch, but they are very easy to setup and use and so for a complete newbie like I was, they are fantastic.

Good luck with whatever you end up purchasing. Just make sure you leave enough $$ for some eyepieces!

[Trido]

Yeah that was an issue that I was a little worried about. What I did though was to purchase a copy of Starry Night and I had hoped that it would at least give me enough of a guide while I learn my way around the sky becuase Navs are pretty expensive on top of the cost of the scope. I want it, but I would only be able to afford an 8" Dob if I were to invest in a comp nav device at the time of purchase.

[pneuman]

I'd grab a paper sky atlas as well, so that you can use it at your telescope without having to run down your laptop's batteries or ruin your night vision. I find the planetarium software great for finding things to look at and getting a general idea of where they are, but when you're at the telescope, star-hopping across fields of magnitude 7 stars in your finderscope, a paper atlas is invaluable.

I've been using the Sky & Telescope Pocket Sky Atlas, which is cheap and quite convenient, and it's been very handy. If you have very dark skies, though, you might want to invest in an atlas with even more detail.

[psyche101]

Do you ever come to the coast for the weekend? There are some in Brissy, might be worth the hours drive, or a 2 hour drive away from you, you might find something suitable at this site http://members.optushome.com.au/firstlight/resources/societies.htm#South-East

I am planning a camp out night at Lake Moogera, that looks like a great dark sky. Half way between you and me. I was coming home a bit over a month ago and stopped at Boonah. Best dark skies I have seen, I was amazed at the number of stars.

[psyche101]

Chasing M31, fog has been my enemy the last 4 mornings.......

I have reasonably dark skies, not great, but I am about 10 or 15K out of surburbia in what they call "Park Living" The best view of Jupiter I seem to able to achieve is very similar - the lines a re sharper, but the focus seems to finish something like this?
http://kenpresley.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/jupiter_autoclub.jpg

and the bright dots of the moons around Jupiter. They are very clear and defined spots.



I thought that if collimation was an issue that I would find the stars and moon look like streaks? I can get quite some clarity of the moon, and clusters like The Butterfly cluster shine like a brooch in the sky. The images do not seem smeared at all? I admit, I fear collimation and have been hesitant to take it on, but as I said, I find my Celestron 4" to perform quite well next to the 10" Dob, untill I attempt deep sky, and the Dob is a clear winner then. Do you still think my problem might be collimation, or could I be doing something else wrong?

Many thanks to you fellows for answering this. I figured I was expecting too much to begin with? This has quietly been nagging me for a bit, I thought with a 10", 3x Barlow fitted to a 14 or 20mm EP should give me a killer focal combination for some serious close ups? The views are "nice" but not quite the close ups I seem to see everywhere? I was starting to figure a great deal of people owned CCD and liked taking long exposures? Some of the pics in here and on the net dead set look like the person was orbiting Jupiter! I felt a little silly asking thinking I was asking too much of the 'scope.....:help:

Maybe I just need glasses..................:eyepop:

[jjjnettie]

There is a group that meet at Leybourne.
I'll see if I can get you in touch with them.

[coldspace]

Come along to our SAS club meets at Pimpama state school. Plenty of members who can help out then you could bring your scope out to our dark sky site at Leybourn. You will see a huge difference then. You will never get results like you see in images at the eyepiece. If you are seeing Jupiter similar to the link you posted then thats doing very,very well and planetary observation is not really affected by light pollution more the "seeing" or atmospheric stability, which could look like focusing issues to you. Also too much power like using a 3x barlow is going to cause you heaps of problems with your viewing, try stepping the power down a little and only use a 2x barlow as too much power only make the unsteady atmosphere look like soup! A smaller, clearer image is far more satisfying than a big blurred image. Those fantastic images you see Mike and others achieve are done at very long focul lengths but they use fast CCD video type cameras running upto 60 frames per second so they can grab some frames of near perfect clarity when the seeing freezes for the split second or so,you can't detect this with your eye. Deep sky "hates" light pollution so dark rural skies are the go there.
Go to www.sas.org.au (http://www.sas.org.au)

Matt.

[astro_south]

You beat me to it Matt

I also belong to the SAS and Matt's suggestion to get along to one of our Dark Sky Camps at Leyburn is the go. The site is just north of Leyburn and directions can be found on the site Matt mentioned ( www.sas.org.au ). I usually travel through Toowoomba on my way out there and from Toowoomba it is only about 45 mins to the site. There is always plenty of experience on hand to give you advice on any aspect of amateur astronomy you need to know about. I am due for some dark skies myself, but I am not sure if I will be heading to Leyburn or heading to Astrofest this month (if I get time for either :( ). If I go to Leyburn I will be in touch and if you are interested I can show you the way from Toowoomba.

[psyche101]

Thank you very much Matt. Unfortunately it looks like I have missed an opportunity to meet before Leybourne, the site says that is this weekend? Might be a sqeeze to get there on short notice. I have intended to join here (Pimpama) before, as Pimpama is only 15 mins from me, I have been building, pretty much near finished and ready to get more serious about star gazing.
Thanks for clearing up my wonderings about the view of Jupiter, I don't understand how many can "See" the GRS with 6" and 8" scopes, yet my 10" considers the GRS a mystery. Could these members be refering to astrophotography? I do not see as many bands as the picture shows, but the ones I do see appear somewhat sharper, but this is about as close as I could find, and I feel a fair comparison.
Small, tight, sharp, sounds like how I generally view Saturn. Great stuff.
I have been trying to be conservative with using the Barlow, main reason I went 3x was because the fellow I bought it from calculated a 3x would be best suited for my 20m and 14mm EP's. Offering a 4.6 on the 14 and 6.6 on the 20 and with my f5 he reckoned about 4.5 to be about as high a mag as I could go wit that focal length. It seemed to be the best choice to extend ny EP collection as far as I could, I have this Meade EP (in fact, this very one http://www.staroptics.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25_39&products_id=126 ) set as well. I did offer that I was very interested in tight planatary viewing, but have since found deep sky to be my passion. I am on Mt Nathan, I seem to get good skies there as the mountain shields the cities a bit. Do you have viewing nights at Pimpima? The site schedule finishes this month, for this month would this be the only meet?
Tuesday 27th: Committee Meeting at 7.30 p.m.
Thanks again Matt. I hope to get along and meet at Pimpama.

[coldspace]

Generally no viewing is done at the meetings at Pimpama unless something special is on or someone brings in a new piece of gear. The meeting is run with minutes etc as the club is a financial one. Most people get together to swap ideas and there usually is some presentations from the more experienced on astro science or tech, and we have some world class imaging guys as well and they sometimes bring in their latest work and do a presentation ( those sort of meetings are what I love)
The site will be updated soon as we are in a new financial year, but generally the meeting are held on the full moon weekend and the new moon weekends are held at Leyburn. The commitee meetings like you mentioned are only for commitee members ie, treasure etc, your best to come along to the general meetings held on Saturday nights. The club is a very active one and I can not keep up with everything that is going on. Contact our membership officer Kevin Dixon. His details are on the SAS web site and he will inform you when the next one is on.

Regards Matt.