Rebuilding 1878 With-Browning Telescope

[bloodhound31]

My good friend Ron has given me the honor of rebuilding his historic telescope. He handed me sveral parts, some beyond repair, some missing altogether. It has been quite a research project on his behalf just to get me as much information as he can so I have something to go on to rebuild things that havent been made for over a century.

His website, antiquescopes.com lists all the old telescopes of this kind to be found in the world to date, with a full photo and text documentation of the rebuild/restore of this particular instrument.

I for one, and immensely grateful to Ron, for giving me this opportunity, and placing his trust in me with this historically priceless instrument.

I am learning and re-creating metal working techniques that haven't been done in over 100 years. To me, this is experience that I will cherish as long as I live, as I feel a lot of this "manual" skill in engineering is being lost to automation and CNC machining.

Anyway, here are a few teaser pics of the work I have been doing with Ron's constant feedback of information and encouragement. More on his website.
http://www.antiquescopes.com/Restoration.aspx

Cheers,

Baz.:D

[monoxide]

looks like a great project and the right man for the job.
looking forward to more :)

[netwolf]

I would agree definitely the right man for this job.

[AlexN]

wow! what an epic task... the thing would be priceless in any condition, but once you're done..... :)

Cant wait to see it restored to its former glory!

[anj026]

Very interesting project Baz, thank you for sharing the pictures.

[xelasnave]

Baz I am so happy the project is going forward in your capable hands.
You sure have done some work on it now....
alex

[bloodhound31]

Thank you Alex,

Great thanks also go to you mate, as you were the one who found it in the first place.:thumbsup:

Baz.:D

[madtuna]

brilliant!

You don't happen to have a pic of how it was when you found it do you?

[bloodhound31]

All on the site mate. There is just too much information to post here. I have been at it for well over a year now....lots of step by step photos, including the pile of junk we originally got.

Baz.

[Ric]

It looks like your doing a fantastic job with it Baz.

A wonderful project for those cloudy nights and days.

Keep us posted on this one.

[bloodhound31]

and tonight I have been putting together what I have so far....

[Ric]

Looks fantastic Baz, what condition are the optics?

Cheers

[bloodhound31]

Both the primary and secondary mirrors show obvious signs of age. They were both coated in silver when Ron got them, but they were starting to show through and the silver was getting thin.

Ron got them both aluminised a while ago so they are working beautifully. The primary is very thick and over 9 inches in diameter.

I had them set up on a timber jig last month and took a first light afocal of a hill about 7km away. The grass stalks on the side of that hill were clearly visible. Later that night I got a good shot of the moon.
http://www.antiquescopes.com/Optics01a.aspx

[xelasnave]

I had the optics in a truss ota that I built from an old chip heater.

The "poles" were from an old caravan annex.

I had it mounted in a fork mount with a 6 foot polar disk.

The views were very good probably due to the relatively long focal length.
I understand the scope was built originally for a solar observation for Major Paton of the Dutch East India Company... still who knows.
I understand the optics are rated very highly.

alex

[xelasnave]

The stuff came my way as a result of acting for a kind lady to sell her house:).

I had no idea of how to put it all together but worked away until I completed the scope.
I was unhappy with the mount and it got set aside.
I knew if I left it out home when I died it would go to the tip.
After taking time to select a recipient I felt Ron was the man to take the thing and get some value. It is history that deserves to be saved...
I am SO happy it will fly again.

Hey Baz you would be the man to build the English Equatorial mount I designed... It will beat a Paramount hands down in my view so it could be a business opportunity..what do you reckon... and anyone wanting shares in the mount company please say so now.
alex:):):)
alex:):):)

[Ric]

Hi Alex, from the images I've seen so far it looks like its rebirthing for another great life of observations.

I find that little snippet of its history quite fascinating, It would be great to find out more about it.

Cheers

[bloodhound31]

Pivot pins now built and installed and hinges being made for the access hatch.

Alex, I would love to give it a crack mate, but this old thing is already consuming most of my time. Until I get this finished, all of my other projects are on hold.

[xelasnave]

No Baz not this week...next week mate..no rush take three or four weeks:lol::lol::lol:

Hey how is the robot arm etc going???
alex

[GrahamL]

great stuff guys:thumbsup:

[Garyh]

Awesome find Alex!
Shall be a real treasure when Barry gets it finished!
:thumbsup:

[bloodhound31]

As I said mate, ALL other projects are on hold. I have a bigger workshop to build in order to finish the robot. My current shed won't be able to house it. Once this antique scope is finished, I will get back into it.

I am also making a bit of clear sky around the observatory:whistle:the entire front of my property WAS a wall of trees....not anymore...Muah ha ha haaaaaaaaaaa.....my back is killing me....:sadeyes:

Baz.:D

[bloodhound31]

I have been at this for over a year now. Here is an animation and video I have been working on, showing how all the parts I have built, come together.
Baz.
http://www.antiquescopes.com:80/Movie.aspx

[bloodhound31]

I got a bit more done tonight. It is so hard trying to juggle a big family, extended family, friends, work etc etc and have enough time in a day to keep going on this old thing.

The real shame is that when it is finished, I have to give it back to Ron....I want one of my own now!!! Maybe I should have made two of everything.....

I guess, this has been pretty valuable, learning all these old techniques and building a working instrument from next to nothing. It will be all the easier next time when I design and build my own one later, using modern and more off the shelf stuff. I can make it however I want then! Yet another project after the new shed, the robot, the 2 metre model of the enterprise and the space shuttle...and on and on and on....

Baz.

[bloodhound31]

Here is the access hatch locked shut.

[Glenhuon]

Beautiful Creation Barry :thumbsup:

Bill

[bloodhound31]

Thanks Bill, it's great fun too!

Tonight I started marking out the wood to make the molds for the cast-iron mount to be poured.

Baz.

[DobDobDob]

Hi to everyone following this thread. I just wanted to say that this project has far deeper ramifications than just rebuilding a telescope, which of course is the primary focus. This project has formed friendships on several continents, brought together people from all walks of life, all ages and has forged friendships that will endure throughout our lifetimes. The project has enriched several lives and given great purpose and pleasure. It is rare indeed that a group of people, that have never met have all joined together in what they all consider important, and maintained their enthusiasm for such a long time. For me personally it took me to the RAS where I became a fellow after forming friendships with other fellows, who taught me how to research efficiently. Barry has done and will continue to do an outstanding job, I know that he has derived an enormous amount of pleasure from this project, one of the important aspects was to use original methods where possible, he fully complied with that and has to some extent glimpsed what it was like to build telescopes 130 years ago. I must publicly acknowledge several key people Dr. Ron Maddison USA, Bob Garfinkle USA, Jerry Grover UK, our own beloved Alex and Baz from this forum and also the entire team from Ravenshoe plus my own society of WSAAG. There would be dozens of others who need to be mentioned also for their contributions. Thank you to everyone who has assisted me in anyway regardless of how simple but most of all, a special place in my heart for Barry Armstead (ASIGN Observatory), who gave more than I could have reasonably expected. :thumbsup:

[netwolf]

Hi All, wow what fantastic work you have done Barry this is just amazing to see this old telescope come to life.

I also spotted this oldie that you guys may have seen, its up on Geko Clasifieds. It looks like the one on this link, that I found on the Ron's Antiquescopes site.
http://www.harryatkinson.com/
See here
http://www.geckooptical.com/cgi-bin/gecko/index.cgi?catid=2&subcatid=11&adid=1627

Regards
Fahim

[bloodhound31]

Thanks Fahim,

The photo in the second link is actually fascinating! I have circled three parts here that are clearly Browningisms. The knob on the left is exactly the same as the ones I have turned. The method for locking the OTA pivot down onto the arms is very similar and the rim on the right is common to many Browning telescopes. This is the rim that the Brass dust cap seats onto.

Great bit of info, and I am sure Ron will be fascinated too!

Cheers,

Baz.:D

[DobDobDob]

Yes indeed, I will write to the current owner who is selling and see if I can have the buyers details or at least get him to pass my details on to him, then hopefully fully document the telescope on my listing page: http://www.antiquescopes.com/Telescopes.aspx

Thanks Netwolf :thumbsup:

[bloodhound31]

DUSTY WORK!! Cough, sneeze, splutter....

I got a lot of work done on the old scope today, including carving out the mold for the cast iron pour for the lower half of the mount.

[DobDobDob]

Great work Baz, I'm just updating the website now with your latest images, the entire restoration so far starts here: http://www.antiquescopes.com/Restoration.aspx

[bloodhound31]

Here's todays work. I bunged it all together for a rough idea of what it's going to look like when assembled properly once it is don in cast iron.

[AlexN]

You're making great progress in such a short time. The workmanship looks beautiful.

[bloodhound31]

Ron, your website looks so good on it's own...perhaps thats enough and you don't need the scope back?.......:whistle:


I don't want to give it baaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkk :sadeyes:

[Kal]

A quiet day here at work so I read through the restoration notes on Ron's webpage. Baz, the work that you have done restoring this piece of history is amazing, absolutely fantastic!

[stringscope]

Very impressive Baz :thumbsup:. I am following your journey with interest.

Cheers,

[bloodhound31]

Thanks Guys.

Wow Kal, well done mate! There is a lot there to read through.

My writing skills for the notes whilst rebuilding are not very poetic, but they do tell the story from the rough and tough viewpoint of the labuorer.

Ron has continually played fetch and fed me the information I required from all the other old scope references he could find. No easy task in itself!

Maybe in another 130 years, the next restorer/rebuilder will have a head start on what what we have done.

[Roger Davis]

Hi All,

I have been sitting back and reading this article and enjoying watching the scope come back to life. This has been an interesting journey and one which has gained the rebirth of a nicely constructed instrument.
With the posting of the advertised scope with the so called "Browningisms" though I must make comment. The focusing knob is a standard shape which is found on most instruments from that period. Early Dollond (1872-1927), Dallmeyer (1861-1892), Short (1868-1900+), Clarkson (1880-1900+) and many others Troughton, Simms, Broadhurst (later Broadhurst & Clarkson and later Broadhurst Clarkson & Co) exhibited such knobs.Trunnions of similar design are also used by the same manufacturers of that time.
I'm looking forward to seeing how that mount comes up!

Roger Davis
Member Antique Telescope Society

[DobDobDob]

Noted and agreed :thumbsup:

[bloodhound31]

My humble apologies Roger and Ron,

I have only ever seen one instrument by Browning here in my mud hut.....my world is still flat.:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Baz:poke::stupid:

[Roger Davis]

No, you're not in flatland, nor in a mud hut.
I've been doing this kind of thing for too long and just love getting my hands dirty on old instruments. For example I had a lovely old pair of large WWII binoculars brought in by their owner for work. The original restorer would have been Arthur Geddes (one of the co-founders of York Optical back in 1949 and a good friend and mentor, sadly passed away some years back), but apparantly taken somewhere else for a clean. The owner still couldn't see through them. I don't know who did the repair/collimation, but I had to remove all the prisms and clean them, plus remove of the field lenses of the RH eyepiece which had a huge thumbprint on it :thumbsup: It came up well in the end with the culprits thumbprint removed. Mind you I did get a picture of the offending thing. (Sorry about the quality of the bino pic, but my phone camera has a damaged lens [must do something about that!])
Best restoration to date has been a 4" Cooke Troughton & Simms which is shown below.

[bloodhound31]

Coming along.... You should check out Ron's site! http://www.antiquescopes.com/Restoration.aspx
I just had a good read through it all last night. What a story is emerging.

Baz.

[bloodhound31]

Today's work...

[kinetic]

Hi Barry,

Seeing images of the restoration work almost had me drooling!
What beautiful attention to detail you have put in.
I just love looking at old instruments like this , they
look so special with the brass all polished up like you have done.

I once restored a family heirloom sextant and compass and your
photos took me back:)

I had to make a few fine brass threads and pins and I restored
most of the old polished hardwood case to new again.
I can pm some pics If you like.
The hardest part is coating all the brass with something to
stop it tarnishing that doesn't feel gluggy or interfere with fine
tolerance moving parts.
I borrowed a book from the library and learnt how to use it but
I found my latitude to within 4 nm . If I was a captain I'd
probably have the ship on the rocks:)

I would love to restore an old scope.
I want to make a full scale version of the Isaac Newton scope you see
in my Avatar but I can't turn wood that big on my lathe for the tube.
The gold looking miniature scope you see in the other flashing Avatar is
the brass miniature Dad made for my 21st birthday cake:)
He had it gold plated to stop it tarnishing so quickly .

Thanks for sharing the progress with us all,

regards,
Steve B.

[bloodhound31]

Thanks guys, here's a few more teasers after the new work has been added...

http://i36.tinypic.com/5nrak1.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/30tmo7s.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/2rm2wlt.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/2uhbjmo.jpg

[DobDobDob]

Hey Baz, the WSAAG boys will be drooling the first time I take this to Mt. Linden, shouldn't be much longer now :thumbsup:

[Ric]

Wow Baz, that scope has come up a treat. It looks as new as the day it was built.

A fine bit of restoration.

[bloodhound31]

:thumbsup:

Well, at least it will be well lubricated....:P



I am no artist mate, but I gave it a go....:thumbsup:..thanks.

[bloodhound31]

Here's todays work...my poor hands..... :(

[Satchmo]

Baz , I wondered about what had been involved in restoring the coating on the mirrors. This would be a challenging task to remove any remaining old coating ( silver ? ) without damaging the original optical figure of such an old historical mirror.

[DobDobDob]

Gee the mount looks great Baz!

[bloodhound31]

It wasn't challenging to remove the old silver at all. Ron got it off very easily.

[DobDobDob]

The decision to resurface was made, we found a company to do it and the job was done. The original surface was pretty poor, so redoing it meant we could actually use the telescope to some degree, this makes it both an historic item as well as usable piece.

[Satchmo]

Ron, Do you mean it was reground / repolished and has a new optical surface figure?

[DaveGee]

Hi Mark,

The mirror was recoated only by Isaac. I took it to him myself, along with a 10"f6 I made.

Regards
DaveGault

[DobDobDob]

Thanks for answering Dave :thumbsup:

[Satchmo]

Guys, do you think you managed to get the old silver off without damaging the optical figure /surface of the mirror?. I'd really like to look through this scope out of historical interest.

[bloodhound31]

What makes any of you think you are ever going to see this telescope alive ever again? I'm not giving it back! NO! You can't make me! Noooooooooooooooooooo!!!!:sad:

[bloodhound31]

All Done.

[DobDobDob]

What time are you leaving in the morning to deliver it Baz ;)

[Ric]

A work of art Baz.

simply beautiful.

[bloodhound31]

Well, the last bits are done and installed. I drove up to Sydney to return it to my good friend, Ron.

What a challenge and journey it has been for almost two years! I have Ron to thank for entrusting me with this task. I learned so much about how things used to be done over a century ago, all by hand.

FANTASTIC. Now I can sleep for a few nights before I get onto the next project.....:screwy:

[DobDobDob]

Thank you Barry for your amazing effort, you have done an outstanding job, the telescope is simply amazing and I used it last night for the first time. I had a small collimation issue but like any scope will work that out as I go along. This ends this chapter of the story but like all good yarns, there is more to come, I definitely have plans for this amazing telescope and will sort out a few things, redo the website for the telescope and then make some announcements in the forums. For now, Barry Rocks, and if anyone wants a skilled and expert person who can virtually do anything with almost zero plans to work from, then Barry's your man. :thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

So very proud and happy Ron and Baz.
Not only does Baz rock but you do to Ron the world owes you big on this one.
I had faith in you and you have not disappointed I have the highest respect for you my friend.
Now the bad news...I will call over when down next I want to get some photos see it in the flesh ... explain the few things you may still not know about the Universe..you know tthe usual stuff.

SO good too see you did it I have never been so right in putting my faith in someone.

alex

[xelasnave]

AND Baz if you want a project maybe "the mount" ask Grendel about the review it got from someone who knows their stuff... you think about it ..I find it so strange that these opportunities build to reality I am patient but see how it will be so without any more authority of why things work than that please consider it...

It will be the best and you could build it.
Strong enough to carry any gear you can think of and you in a chair... but super accurate, smoothest tracking...best in the world...
So high enough goal or what.

alex

[DobDobDob]

Hi Alex, I hope I recognise you without the beard, what a handsome young man you are. Okay, I’ve just been outside after a phone call from Baz, and I have had a go at collimating the scope in the daylight and I can see some trees ok, so I’ll leave it outside till tonight and try again for a few stars, it’s a little cloudy but still a few hours before nightfall. When you come you will be amazed, that’s for sure, it’s an amazing telescope and especially when you consider back when you gave me the initial components. It has come a long way since then.

I have to find a forge, someplace that can cast in steel or bronze two parts of the mount, which we were quoted $1500.00 for, that of course is a lot of money and I am going to give the telescope away as soon as I get these two parts made, so don’t really want to add any more $$$ towards it. I’ve always known that I am going to donate the scope (Baz and I have talked about this many times) to a worthy establishment where the general public will be able to enjoy it. Baz had his fun doing the rebuild, I had my fun doing the research, the telescope belongs to the people of tomorrow so they can see what the people of 1878 used to view the stars.

If you know any foundries or places that can make a mould and then create two ‘parts’ via using molten metal, then let me know. When I find such a place, I’m going to offer them a website, created and hosted for three years as payment for the task, so hopefully some smallish forge out there might find that an acceptable trade. :)

[xelasnave]

I have a forge I would not be able to cast in steel but I think I could do a bronze casting show me the bits a mold is easy I got that sortta stuff around someplace.

You had better find out how they made bronze then as I assume it may well have been bronze the ratios I may even have the copper ore on the block now that would be neat....but I digress... Also the is an artist up here a factory producing art..engineer of highest order... he may like to be involved I will ask him..You have a wood version I guess?

I have a wonderful old book one early metalworking and foundary stuff... I should do it my brother in law is a black smith it would tickle him...he built the forge now I think about it.

It may be cast iron... thats doable ...once cast it cant be machined broonze is machinable .I need to see what you are speaking about.

alex

[DobDobDob]

Alex, you are a lifesaver, come over and take the wooden exact replica away with you, as soon as you see it and touch it, you will understand it's purpose. We have photographs at: http://www.antiquescopes.com/images/Restoration17/Dust.jpg
and

http://www.antiquescopes.com/images/Mount02/IMG_8434.jpg

I can't wait to see you, boy have you made my day!!!! Come around grab them as soon as possible, even if it's a hit and run visit, day or night, whenever it suits you. Barry can give any technical details you might require also, he is very much the energy behind this project. :thumbsup:

[xelasnave]

Any idea what they were originally ..iron I suspect... I have been reading up... pretty big cast probably need to cool it real slow... anyways there are a few who should be able to help... bronze would be easier.

Anywyas I could try a pewter type composite to practice get mold temps right etc

alex

[DobDobDob]

Alex, I have tons of correspondece from some other Browning owners around the world, plus a zillion close up photographs, plus of course the identical real size replicas built by Barry, you won't have any problems whatsoever. Hurry up and drive over :P

[bloodhound31]

Hi Alex,

The originals were cast iron I believe. However, I saw somewhere that the iron mounts were renown for breaking. Iron I think is too brittle. I think it would be best to go to bronze. The thing gets painted anyway so the color appearance of the metal doesn't matter. Also, once cast some holes will need to be drilled and tapped. I am always here to consult with before you actually do it. In fact, I would prefer it if you did.

Cheers,

Baz.

[xelasnave]

Cast iron is brittle ... there must be something scrap immediately suitable a few old taps with more tin and zinc... I dont know the ingredients but copper and stuff mix ok I think...there will be a source of metal.. even pweter would do it the size of it pweter would do it heavy but strong I would say...I will have to make up a beaker for the mix I will source some clay and get started ..anyways I will see what is available etc.
alex

[DobDobDob]

Thank you guys for the discussion on the mount parts, it sounds as if it’s going to be easy to accomplish, that sure is a relief. Okay, yesterday I mention to several people that I had a collimation problem, well that was not true, I re-collimated yesterday (Thanks for your tips Baz), and then last night it was reasonably clear, I tried to use it but got some really weird results. To say I was despondent was an understatement, two years of joint hard work, thousands of dollars in payments and materials and I couldn’t even see one star, actually I couldn’t focus correctly on Venus which was blazing so brightly I thought the Earth would catch fire.

To make a long story short, I had removed the original eyepiece and was trying to use my Meade eyepieces, in a Eureka moment I replaced the original eyepiece and bingo, instant clarity, and great joy. Once again I rang Baz, this time with good news to tell him that I could see the universe as clearly as those men from the 1870’s did and wow, did they have a good view. It made me realise that they (those that could afford a 9.25 inch Browning-With at the time) really had a powerful telescope at their disposal and it brought me closer to understanding the way it might have been back then.

Of course I dragged my wife and grandson out and forced them to look through this magnificent old girl, they were both amazed at the pin point clarity, frankly so am I, the quality is great by any age standard. The wife went inside but my 10 year old grandson Jake stayed out with me till well past midnight and I swear to you that he (Jake) was using the telescope and said ‘Pop, take a look at these nice stars”, when I looked you could have knocked me over, he had happened on Jupiter complete with escorting moons. To be sure they were very small in the eyepiece, but they were clear and unmistakable.

During the course of the four hours I spent using the telescope last night, before the clouds rolled in and drove me to bed, I can assure anyone who might be interested, that all the effort by all the people over the last couple of years has been more than worth it and collectively we have achieved something wonderful. It will be a fine day indeed when we ultimately deliver the scope to its final resting place where it can be viewed by the general public as we move forward in time.